Have Sinn Féin truly reformed?

Trotter

Over the past few weeks, I've noticed a softening of SF's policies and a movement towards the centre that I hadnt seen before.

Out of curiosity, I went through their website to see where they're similar and different from the other parties..

.. and I found this tshirt on their eshop on their website..



and this one also..




Why would a party that denounces violence and killing sell such items to fund the party's movement?

I think that this kind of "merchandise" needs to be removed before I could vote for the party. It really disappointed me and I was very surprised to see it.

How can we consider SF as part of a government with a SF Minister for Defence when by selling these items, they advocate a different, "undefeated army"?


I dont intend this thread to be SF bashing, as Im delighted to see the progress in the North etc. and there are SF members that deserve a lot of praise for their work. I just dont like being blatantly hoodwinked in this manner. A party is peaceful or it isnt. SF have to decide to be peaceful, and take this stuff down from their website.

mike65

They still carry several suitcases but the trick is they have learnt to hide them in plain site. We know thier history and they won't forget it either but in the mainstream media they couch thier language to suit and tend not to proclaim things that'll scare the electoral horses. Though you might find some in SF would quite like it if the above items quietly dissapeared from view.

That said most who vote for them don't mind if SF get shirty in fact they'd proberly like to see more of it to prove SF are still anti-establishment 'rebels'.

Mike.

28064212

It's debatable. Sinn Féin have a right to be proud of their roots in the IRA going back to before 1916. Unification is still very much a part of their manifesto. The stuff on The Rising and even "Brit Troops Out" are reasonable stuff to have. "IRA: Undefeated Army" is a bit much, particularly with the images of guys in balaclavas. Glorifying the Brookeborough Raid is way outside the line, and that should definitely be taken down.

Sinn Féin's actions in recent times have shown a real committment to change, and I think they are a completely reformed party. That said, I don't think I'll give them even a transfer vote. Although that's from an economic standpoint rather than anything else, despite the fact that their stated policies are probably closest to my own. I don't believe they would actually carry through with any of them, especially if they were asked to compromise to get into a coalition.

With regard to the general election, I don't think that there's any party that would go into a coalition with them. The thing I worry about most is that they will take some of the youth and left vote away from the Fine Gael/Labour coalition. Fianna Fáil are unlikely to lose too many votes to SF

bug

Seriously, if you vote for a party based on what sort of memorabilia they sell then you'd want your head examined.
Judge a party on their manifesto and their achievements.

The_Minister

bug wrote:

Seriously, if you vote for a party based on what sort of memorabilia they sell then you'd want your head examined.

When that memorabilia glorifies the violent past of the party, the murders that took place, and which most people like to believe are behind them. Most SF'ers I know think that SF has distanced itself from violence, so its ok to vote for them.
I disagree.

bug

The_Minister wrote:

When that memorabilia glorifies the violent past of the party, the murders that took place, and which most people like to believe are behind them. Most SF'ers I know think that SF has distanced itself from violence, so its ok to vote for them.
I disagree.

Being the devils advocate here but if the internet had of been around after the birth of our state, I wonder if FF would be selling memorabilia which glorifies the violent past of the party.

I actually might buy one, could be worth a lot of money in a few decades.

I think their actions in the past few years speak louder than a few t-shirts.
But maybe that's me.
I'd rather judge them on what I have seen locally and whether I think they are prepared for government here yet.
Regardless, I think the party will develop into a real contender, but it will take a while yet.

InFront

This was featured on a TV3 political programme at least a year ago, when it was put to Mary Lou McDonald that such memorabilia was giving out very bad signals about her party. She didn't seem to think much of it.

If this were the Greens or the PDs, or any of the other small parties (or indeed any other Dail party), there would be complete uproar over such memorabilia on an official website. Should we accept it just because it's SF?

Amid all the political niceties of the events in the North recently, this is a stark reminder of SF attitudes to what has gone on. I'm not saying that they ever pretended differently, but perhaps that we shouldn't forget.

Dave!

SF still have a way to go to be considered a purely democratic party. They've yet to denounce alot of violence, they're still linked to the IRA and the army council probably has a significant influence on SF policy.

But having said that, they've made some real advancements towards democracy in recent years. They've shown determination to get the NI assembly up and running, and have had to convince their supporters to trust them in passing the motion to engage with the PSNI. They've convinced the provos to decommision their weapons, and the IMC has confirmed that they're still complying with this.

They've been involved with some disgusting things in recent years.

All things considered, I'm willing to give them a preference. They're not going away tomorrow. They're the oldest party in the country (if my history serves me correctly!), a party which has had a profound influence on the shape of the island. They're not going away, so if you believe as I do that they've given up trying to get a united Ireland by bombs and bullets, then I think they should be given the consideration that other parties are given. The best way I think to ensure that peace is maintained on the island is to include parties like SF in the democratic process. If Republicans believe that they have a better chance of achieving their aims via the ballot box, then that's the approach they're gonna take, and that's being reflected in the IRA decommisioning for example. It's being recognised that the violence is utterly futile, and that there's a chance of achieving a UI if SF present themselves as a legitimate party with credible policies.

That's what I think anyway!

edit:

Forgot to address the t-shirts, etc..... SF consider the armed campaign as a legitimate one and an important one. So I don't think that they're just selling those t-shirts to pander to the extreme Republicans. But having said that, their transition to a purely democratic party, from a practical point of view, will have to be gradual. If they disassociate themselves with 'the Troubles' and with more recent IRA activity, then they'll instantly lose the support of the hard-line Republicans and IRA supporters who have supported the decommisioning and trusted SF about sitting on the police boards. So what you say, if they're a democratic party then that's a good thing...... In theory yes, but from a practical point of view, if they cut themselves off from the hard-line supporters, then where do those supporters go? Right into the arms of more radical Republican groups like Republican Sinn Fein, and things could degenerate again.
Whereas if they make it a gradual transition then as the OP mentioned, they'll start to moderate and start moving towards the centre, eventually moving away from the hard-liners.

bug

DaveMcG wrote:

edit:

Forgot to address the t-shirts, etc..... SF consider the armed campaign as a legitimate one and an important one. So I don't think that they're just selling those t-shirts to pander to the extreme Republicans. But having said that, their transition to a purely democratic party, from a practical point of view, will have to be gradual. If they disassociate themselves with 'the Troubles' and with more recent IRA activity, then they'll instantly lose the support of the hard-line Republicans and IRA supporters who have supported the decommisioning and trusted SF about sitting on the police boards. So what you say, if they're a democratic party then that's a good thing...... In theory yes, but from a practical point of view, if they cut themselves off from the hard-line supporters, then where do those supporters go? Right into the arms of more radical Republican groups like Republican Sinn Fein, and things could degenerate again.
Whereas if they make it a gradual transition then as the OP mentioned, they'll start to moderate and start moving towards the centre, eventually moving away from the hard-liners.

precisely my thoughts.
get the T-shirts while you can, doubt they'll be there in a few years.

The_Minister

DaveMcG wrote:

They're the oldest party in the country .

IMO FF are the oldest party on the Island. There was a Sinn Fein that split into FF and SF. FF kept most of the policies of the first SF, while the new SF were a bunch of loopers. If one goes by the name, then SF is the oldest, if one goes by policy and position, then FF is. It's rather like having a son who has the same name as you - it doesn't mean he can use your birthday.

Victor Meldrew

OK, This is a lot like the "if SF are ok for DUP then why are they not ok down south" thread which was locked the other day havign run it's course.

That said, If the SF website is selling IRA memoribilia it should tell democrats and fascists all they need to know about voting for SF and where they really stand on democracy.

As i've previously said, SF are "in rehab", but it'll be a while before we can give them the keys to the brewery

LuckyLloyd

DaveMcG wrote:

SF still have a way to go to be considered a purely democratic party. They've yet to denounce alot of violence, they're still linked to the IRA and the army council probably has a significant influence on SF policy.

I thought your post was generally quite reasonable. However, I think it is very important to note that the above is quite a baseless statement.

FTA69

Young Fine Gael members frequently wear t-shirts emblazoned with Michael Collins sporting a Mauser Automatic, perhaps they haven't "reformed" from their terrible IRA past? Fianna Fáil frequently hold commemorations for IRA Volunteers as well. At the end of the day people are entitled to be proud of the Irish struggle for independence and they have the right to demonstrate support for it. To be honest wearing a t-shirt with "Undefeated Army" on it does not equate with having a desire to return to armed struggle, although I personally wouldn't wear one because it happens to be false advertising!

I also think that some of the opinions expressed on this thread regarding the relationship between the IRA and Sinn Féin to be unfounded, and based on ignorance of the realities. The Army Council does not have any influence over Sinn Féin policy, that used to be the case but the whole Provisional project is now concentrated solely in the Sinn Féin party, whatever the past of some of its members.

Voipjunkie

The_Minister wrote:

IMO FF are the oldest party on the Island. There was a Sinn Fein that split into FF and SF. FF kept most of the policies of the first SF, while the new SF were a bunch of loopers. If one goes by the name, then SF is the oldest, if one goes by policy and position, then FF is. It's rather like having a son who has the same name as you - it doesn't mean he can use your birthday.

Well your opinion is wrong on at least one count

If you accept that SF is not the continuation of the party founded in 1905 (which is debatable) then the oldest political party on the Island would be the UUP which was founded as the UUC in 1905 and and has its roots in the Irish Unionist Party going back to the 19th century.

Alternatively if you are just talking about the 26 counties then the oldest party would be the Labour Party founded in 1912.

That is presuming you accepted the idea the SF are not the continuation of a party founded in 1905 which of course they clearly are as the various splits have always been people leaving the name and the rest of the republican movement behind them eventually.

marco murphy

I think T-Shirts of the like shown will be taken off the shelves in the near future. It gives very bad signals of the party however I can safely say they are simply T-Shirts. And to be honest, the undefeated army T-Shirts are top sellers for Irish Americans.

yomchi

I personally wouldn't wear one because it happens to be false advertising

tut tut from the ashes!!

I've a huge can of worms here bursting to open

Dyr

I dont see why other parties dont jump on the bandwagon and cash in their dodgy pasts for merchandise, fine gael could issue commerative blue shirts, Fianna fail could celebrate dev's heroic execution of republican prisioners.. "line em up boys" would be a cool logo.

The labour party could issue commerative bank notes in memory of Pat Rabbites old chums fund raising activites. Or how about "Vote DeRossa: twice" on a t-shirt to remind us of the glory days of the WP?

I'm waiting for sinn fein to issue the h-block diet book at this stage. Or start selling off commerative bits of shergar. :rolleyes:

FTA69

Jon wrote:

tut tut from the ashes!!

I've a huge can of worms here bursting to open

Chillax the kacks lad, it was a prominent member of Ógra who first had me in stitches over that gag.

"Vote DeRossa: twice" on a t-shirt to remind us of the glory days of the WP?

Beaut!

Zambia

Lets face it lads we have all been here , done this and brought the T-Shirt.

csk

FTA69 wrote:

Young Fine Gael members frequently wear t-shirts emblazoned with Michael Collins sporting a Mauser Automatic, perhaps they haven't "reformed" from their terrible IRA past? Fianna Fáil frequently hold commemorations for IRA Volunteers as well. At the end of the day people are entitled to be proud of the Irish struggle for independence and they have the right to demonstrate support for it. To be honest wearing a t-shirt with "Undefeated Army" on it does not equate with having a desire to return to armed struggle, although I personally wouldn't wear one because it happens to be false advertising!

I also think that some of the opinions expressed on this thread regarding the relationship between the IRA and Sinn Féin to be unfounded, and based on ignorance of the realities. The Army Council does not have any influence over Sinn Féin policy, that used to be the case but the whole Provisional project is now concentrated solely in the Sinn Féin party, whatever the past of some of its members.

Indeed it should be noted that no less a person than the Taoiseach addresed the Liam Mellowes Commemoration beofore Christmas and there was not a peep out of anyone.

As for not voting Sinn Féin because of the merchandise sold...what can I say? It's seems a petty reason as if one was scrambling around alomost looking for excuses not to accept Sinn Féin have moved on.

Trotter

Lots of good observations.

I can see that some people are of the opinion.. "Relax its a tshirt".. but for people killed in the troubles, or for people who grew up hearing about bombs and murders, I really dont see the positivity in selling tshirts to commemorate those who carried out these acts.

I also disagree with the "we have to gradually take them away" angle. I dont think its right to appease any terrorist, wherever they're from. Ok.. do it in private.. but dont rub people's noses in it by selling tshirts.

I may be unique, but seeing those disgusted me enough to push me away from any transfer votes going to SF.

Oh and for the record.. I didnt start this thread to bash Sinn Fein. I started it to see was I the only one with a problem with their tshirts.

I dont see why criticism of SF is always put down to "bashing". I have a right to criticise all parties, and I often do exactly that!

Rock Climber

csk wrote:

Indeed it should be noted that no less a person than the Taoiseach addresed the Liam Mellowes Commemoration beofore Christmas and there was not a peep out of anyone.

As for not voting Sinn Féin because of the merchandise sold...what can I say? It's seems a petty reason as if one was scrambling around alomost looking for excuses not to accept Sinn Féin have moved on.

Except for the fact that the brothers sisters and friends of the people killed in the North in the 80's and 90's by the IRA are still alive and those killers are applauded by SF for their "good work".
Thats the difference there and it's a serious one in this information age that we live in.
Practically all those IRA atrocities were beamed into the living rooms of people many of whom will be voting on the 24th.
They can put a tangable link between death distruction and the praise it got from SF.

By contrast,there arent too many of Liam Mellowes contemporaries around.

People will move on eventually but to expect it now or at the next election is a bit much.

FTA69

but dont rub people's noses in it by selling tshirts.

They aren't rubbing anyone's noses in it, don't go to the site if you don't want to look at the t-shirts, it seems to me people are going out of their way to be offended.

I really dont see the positivity in selling tshirts to commemorate those who carried out these acts.

As I said, nobody's disputing the fact that many IRA actions were wrong, but many do believe the struggle for Irish freedom was noble and is fit to commemorate and celebrate. The IRA in the '20s committed atrocities as well but all parties can commemorate them without coming in for criticism. Likewise films like the Wind That Shakes The Barley are critically acclaimed while a similar one on the IRA of the 70s would probably be derided. It is generally part of the selective amnesia people have in the south, the likes of the Rising and Tan War are all well and good, as if they were firing supersoakers at the British Army.

RC,

By contrast,there arent too many of Liam Mellowes contemporaries around.

No, but they were around in the years after the Tan War, the Peader O'Donnells and the George Gilmores and you can be sure people found them just as offensive back then, as well as the message they were advocating.

biko

Yes they have reformed (well, they are better at politics now than before). They made the IRA have decommission guns and they are in power with DUP. On the policing board etc. And now you are on about some effing t-shirts. When will it stop? Seppuku for Gerry?

Trotter

biko wrote:

Yes they have reformed (well, they are better at politics now than before). They made the IRA have decommission guns and they are in power with DUP. On the policing board etc. And now you are on about some effing t-shirts. When will it stop? Seppuku for Gerry?

You seem to think I have a deep hatred of SF. If you read my first post you'll see my admiration for the work done in the north. I just dont like the idea of people glorifying killers on tshirts, and then asking me to vote for them.

I am entitled to my opinion and it will "effing" stop when I believe I am voting for a party that is peaceful to the core.

Seppuku for Gerry? Please.. just take down the tshirts that have guns and IRA celebrations on them. Its distasteful if SF want to be in government.

opa01_2000

I think if they handed over the murderers of Robert McCarthy and Joseph Rafferty it would do a lot more to make me consider voting Sinn Fein than any T-Shirts being available on their web-site !!!

biko

You're right in the sense that it glorifies violence but for Northern Nationalists it represents the struggle against the oppressor. IRA was never defeated but chose to put down arms to forward political means. Therefore SF has no military means anymore.

I didn't want to imply that you is anti SF but recently it seems there is no pleasing people - except around a quarter of the voters.

Out of interest, what would actually turn you around to vote for SF? When would you be satisfied with their efforts? When they stop selling these t-shirts?

Trotter

biko wrote:

You're right in the sense that it glorifies violence but for Northern Nationalists it represents the struggle against the oppressor. IRA was never defeated but chose to put down arms to forward political means. Therefore SF has no military means anymore.

I didn't want to imply that you is anti SF but recently it seems there is no pleasing people - except around a quarter of the voters.

Out of interest, what would actually turn you around to vote for SF? When would you be satisfied with their efforts? When they stop selling these t-shirts?

I'd vote for SF when their economic policies match mine, when they answer questions directly once in a while (all parties guilty here), when they remove those tshirts!, and when they have a candidate that I think is impressive.

I would also like to see them in opposition for a couple of terms before I give them the shot at government.. however they are far too far away from me politically and policy wise for them to get my vote.

I look forward to the day when I trust SF.

LuckyLloyd

opa01_2000 wrote:

I think if they handed over the murderers of Robert McCarthy and Joseph Rafferty it would do a lot more to make me consider voting Sinn Fein than any T-Shirts being available on their web-site !!!

That comment is inaccurate and unhelpful. The political party Sinn Feinn have nothing to do with protecting those people and were not involved in the murders in any way, shape or form. It irritates me that such a view persists in the minds of the public.

Gobán Saor

Trotter wrote:

I think that this kind of "merchandise" needs to be removed before I could vote for the party.

I sincerely doubt you (or anybody else) were going to vote for the party if only the merchandise were not on sale.:rolleyes:

Trotter wrote:

How can we consider SF as part of a government with a SF Minister for Defence when by selling these items, they advocate a different, "undefeated army"?................A party is peaceful or it isnt. SF have to decide to be peaceful, and take this stuff down from their website.

They are not advocating a role for the "undefeated army" now, merely pointing out that it had a role in the past. And Sinn Fein supported that role in the past. And no longer see any need to support or advocate such a role now and have said so openly. You can believe in peace for the future and still believe violence was justified in the past. I can't believe this comes as a surprise to anybody.

Liam Byrne

FTA69 wrote:

They aren't rubbing anyone's noses in it, don't go to the site if you don't want to look at the t-shirts, it seems to me people are going out of their way to be offended.

And therein lies the problem; Sinn Fein & Co complain that people don't take them seriously, and that people constantly refer to the murderers and criminals in their midst, instead of focussing on SF's policies......so what do people do ?

They go to the SF website to see what their policies are.

And what do they see there ?

That's not going out of their way to be offended; that's giving SF the benefit of the doubt, seeking out more info, and being proven right (which is unfortunate, since we'd all love to see signs that SF have indeed moved on).

It's a bit like visiting the Fianna Fail website and seeing messages that it's OK to embezzle medical funds to buy Charvet shirts and sell passports and take backhanders......

It won't happen because, whatever about what some members of Fianna Fail might do behind closed doors, the party doesn't want to [be seen to] condone it.

Unfortunately, SF can't seem to figure out that the public doesn't agree with highlighting the crap from the past, and the way things are gone it's difficult to separate the actual fight for freedom from digusting atrocities performed since. I'd love to be proud of the "fight for freedom", but since there's "guilt-by-association" to a load of other crap that I'm not only not proud of, but disgusted by, I can't; that pisses me off.

Plus, could you imagine an Iraq guy being interested in a "we won" t-shirt sometime in 2060 ? It'd be a bit like someone here in Ireland being seen wearing a USA 94 t-shirt!

El Stuntman

LuckyLloyd wrote:

That comment is inaccurate and unhelpful. The political party Sinn Feinn have nothing to do with protecting those people and were not involved in the murders in any way, shape or form. It irritates me that such a view persists in the minds of the public.

LL, you may be irritated but it is fact that SF/IRA closed ranks and would not give up the killers to the PSNI (although they did offer to shoot them themselves)

I don't know anything about the Rafferty killing but the McCartney one is a clear case of a SF/IRA coverup

Dave!

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I thought your post was generally quite reasonable. However, I think it is very important to note that the above is quite a baseless statement.

Well that's fair enough, but it's my opinion that an organisation can't convince its military wing to destroy all its weapons unless they let them maintain a significant amount of influence within the political side of things. It would require some serious skills of persuasion to have them destroy all their guns and leave everything to a party that many elements within the Republican movement consider to have sold out. I think it's a bit naive TBH to believe that the IRA don't continue to play a role with relation to SF.

Trotter

Gob&#225 wrote: »

You can believe in peace for the future and still believe violence was justified in the past. I can't believe this comes as a surprise to anybody.

I dont believe violence is or was ever justified. I hope that solves your confusion.

LuckyLloyd

El Stuntman wrote:

LL, you may be irritated but it is fact that SF/IRA closed ranks and would not give up the killers to the PSNI (although they did offer to shoot them themselves)

I don't know anything about the Rafferty killing but the McCartney one is a clear case of a SF/IRA coverup

Disagree Glyn. It was the IRA who made that appaling offer. Sinn Feinn have consistently denied the claims of the McCartney family that high ranking members of the party intimidated and discouraged people from bringing forward information. And at the start of this year Gerry Adams publicly confirmed that those with information should contact the PSNI.

Now, if you fail to accept that there is a division between the IRA and Sinn Feinn and that they operate as seperate organisations - fair enough. We will most likely have to agree to disagree so.

LuckyLloyd

DaveMcG wrote:

Well that's fair enough, but it's my opinion that an organisation can't convince its military wing to destroy all its weapons unless they let them maintain a significant amount of influence within the political side of things. It would require some serious skills of persuasion to have them destroy all their guns and leave everything to a party that many elements within the Republican movement consider to have sold out. I think it's a bit naive TBH to believe that the IRA don't continue to play a role with relation to SF.

It is well known fact that senior members of Sinn Feinn previously held important positions on the IRA military council. As such, I find it quite plausible that senior members of Sinn Feinn can excercise significant influence over those currently at the helm of the IRA. But I perceive a clear and practical difference between both organisations and have yet to see any conclusive evidence to the contrary.

opa01_2000

Fact is that a Sinn Fein councillor was present in the bar when the killing of Robert McCartney took place but SAW NOTHING !!! Wake up will you !!!

biko

DaveMcG wrote:

Well that's fair enough, but it's my opinion that an organisation can't convince its military wing to destroy all its weapons unless they let them maintain a significant amount of influence within the political side of things. It would require some serious skills of persuasion to have them destroy all their guns and leave everything to a party that many elements within the Republican movement consider to have sold out. I think it's a bit naive TBH to believe that the IRA don't continue to play a role with relation to SF.

This is likely true, for instance is the former commander of Derry in the party. Some other party members have served prison time for membership of the IRA.
These people have the connections and the smarts to help the process along. If SF did not offer them something most likely a decommission wouldn't have taken place.

LuckyLloyd

opa01_2000 wrote:

Fact is that a Sinn Fein councillor was present in the bar when the killing of Robert McCartney took place but SAW NOTHING !!! Wake up will you !!!

I am wide awake thanks. Ever been in a bar and missed some commotion? Not seen what went on and are reminded the next day by friends? Never? He wasn't stabbed to death in the bar you know.

csk

Rock Climber wrote:

Except for the fact that the brothers sisters and friends of the people killed in the North in the 80's and 90's by the IRA are still alive and those killers are applauded by SF for their "good work".
Thats the difference there and it's a serious one in this information age that we live in.
Practically all those IRA atrocities were beamed into the living rooms of people many of whom will be voting on the 24th.
They can put a tangable link between death distruction and the praise it got from SF.

By contrast,there arent too many of Liam Mellowes contemporaries around.

People will move on eventually but to expect it now or at the next election is a bit much.

Yes and there are also people alive that suffered at the hands of the British and Loyalists etc. The fact is though, that we now have a power a sharing Assembly up and running, the PIRA have gone away, loyalists are supposedly going away too. Now really, if the people of the north can handle all that, I don't see why you can't. And just to buffer myself from the inevitable reply of "it's a different country up there". No it's not. And even if it was(which it's not) we will be all the one country soon enough anyway.

It never ceases to amaze me how people that come out with this spiel, are the exact same people who would a only a few years ago have been telling us "to get over the past", "what ever wrongs the British did was in the past" etc etc.

By the by I find it strange, if not downright hypocritical, that you would dismiss the Taoiseach addressing a Liam Mellowes commemoration simply because no contemporaries are still alive.

Rock Climber

csk wrote:

Yes and there are also people alive that suffered at the hands of the British and Loyalists etc.

You can always spot the republican a mile off when you see a statement like that one.
FWIW,My point was in relation to the perception of SF here in the 26 counties.Loyalist political parties arent running in the 26 counties and neither are the UK parties that controlled the British forces.So your point is moot.

The fact is though, that we now have a power a sharing Assembly up and running, the PIRA have gone away, loyalists are supposedly going away too. Now really, if the people of the north can handle all that, I don't see why you can't. And just to buffer myself from the inevitable reply of "it's a different country up there". No it's not. And even if it was(which it's not) we will be all the one country soon enough anyway.

If the two were the same,then people would be voting en masse for SF down here too and they aren't.

By the by I find it strange, if not downright hypocritical, that you would dismiss the Taoiseach addressing a Liam Mellowes commemoration simply because no contemporaries are still alive.

I didn't dismiss it,I explained how different it was.
Relax the cacks and I'm sure your party will be driving the wind of change down here in a couple of elections time.
Mind you at the rate their policies are changing faced with the realisation that hard left socialism isn't a winner with the majority of the salary loving population,there mightn't be much change at all, they might be advocating a 10% corporation tax by then...

Gobán Saor

Trotter wrote:

I dont believe violence is or was ever justified. I hope that solves your confusion.

Actually it leaves me more confused than ever.
It could mean:
1. You're a pacifist and oppose all violence everywhere, always.
2. Or you're opposed to violence "for political ends"
3. Or you're opposed to violence for illegitimate political ends.
4. Or you're opposed to non-state violence
5. Or you're opposed to non-legitimate-state violence
6. Some combination/modication of the above.

Depending on you exactly what you mean, you could justify some, all or none of the following:
the IRA 1969 to ceasefire
the IRA 1919 - 1922
the 1916 rising
the ANC campaign against the apartheid South African state
the Palestinian intifada
the Warsaw ghetto uprising against the Nazis
the bombing of Dresden
the bombing of Tokyo
the bombing of Hiroshima/Nagasaki
etc etc.

Big differences.......

Trotter

Im not being walked down a long road on this one. I dont need to justify or quantify to you how much violence is ok, if at all.

Regardless of how this thread pans out, I'm disgusted by those tshirts, which were easy to find when I looked for info on the SF party, out of a feeling that I should know about their policies.

Gobán Saor

Trotter wrote:

Im not being walked down a long road on this one. I dont need to justify or quantify to you how much violence is ok, if at all.

Regardless of how this thread pans out, I'm disgusted by those tshirts, which were easy to find when I looked for info on the SF party, out of a feeling that I should know about their policies.

Fair enough - it's just that I've found over the years that when people say they're opposed to violence in a north of Ireland context, what they often really mean is that they're opposed to Republican violence.

biko

That's because Republican violence gets much more airtime on the news. In Europe IRA headlines outnumber Loyalist headlines by 19 to 1 (my estimate) although death tolls are similar, that's another thread. No-one in Europe knows of UDA, LVF, UFF etc but everyone knows of the IRA.

And of course southerners are more affected by republican violence. Loyalists don't come down here to punish informers, or beat people up.

Gobán Saor

biko wrote:

That's because Republican violence gets much more airtime on the news. In Europe IRA headlines outnumber Loyalist headlines by 19 to 1 (my estimate) although death tolls are similar, that's another thread. No-one in Europe knows of UDA, LVF, UFF etc but everyone knows of the IRA.

You're probably right about the relative incidence of headlines throughout Europe. Could it be because the typical IRA action was an attack against the British Army or RUC and the typical loyalist action was the random shooting of a civilian on the basis of the "any Taig will do" policy?

biko wrote:

And of course southerners are more affected by republican violence. Loyalists don't come down here to punish informers, or beat people up.

Of course they came down here to plant bombs in Dublin and Monaghan that were almost certaimly constructed by their British army handlers.

brianthebard

Plenty of IRA attacks were on civilians, or at the very least no clear military target, right from the start of the troubles.

marco murphy

The discussion of Civilian targets has been discussed a thousand times.
The tee-shirts are to get money from the Americans. simple as.

brianthebard

Well that justifies it. :rolleyes:

Trotter

Gob&#225 wrote: »

Fair enough - it's just that I've found over the years that when people say they're opposed to violence in a north of Ireland context, what they often really mean is that they're opposed to Republican violence.

I understand that in any conflict, legitimate or otherwise, there is often wrongs committed on both sides.

What I dislike is the flaunting of "memorabilia" in this manner from any side of this unfortunate and devastating conflict.

No unionist is asking for my vote, so I havent been looking through unionist party websites.

The crux of the matter is, I expect SF to act in a way other than their website suggests if they wish to confirm their transition to peaceful politics. Its less about the t-shirts and more about the attitude that leaves them there.

ateam

A little unrelated, but a great quote from Eddie Hobbs tonight in the interview with the Sinn Fein leader of the Dail. He said it seems like Sinn Fein have written their manifesto in the back of a Hi Ace van lol