Enda Kenny For Taoiseach??????

bemmet

A couple of questions that seriously exercise my mind-


Am i the only one to be worried about this ?
Can we be serious about what may happen on the 24th of may next ?
Who is that man appearing on FG posters?
Have we deluded ourselves about the prosperity most of us ,and i accept not all of us ,have had recently.
How can Enda Kenny et al ,say that FF are fully responsible for any of the difficulties the country has whilst in government .And yet out of the other corner of its mouth say that FF can accept no plaudits for the economic miracle that Ireland has become.

Am I the only one who remembers the 1980,s -when we exported people and not products.
And yet the Whiners,Rabbite ,Kenny et al remind us that FF have been in government for 18 of the last 20 years.Well if they have done such a bad job of it ,how come the economy is recognised as being the model for copying and commentary throughout the rest of Europe.

Northern Ireland. Would the peace we see have been possible with a FG taoiseach?.... well lets look back on the last FG taoiseach where he publicly admitted that he could not and would not engage in negotiations with Sinn fein. he led a party who seemed comfortable and fully supportive of this position.How far would that thought have got us ?????????

For one moment can we be serious ......
The last thing we need is a change of government -
Why jeopardise it all ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Lennoxschips

The Celtic Tiger economy happened precisely because we were so poor in the 1980s. We had extremely low labour costs, spoke English, had low tax compared to other EU countries, were fairly well educated and within the EU market. So these small US tech firms came here and set up shop. Then the US internet/tech boom happened and those companies took off.

FF are not responsible for the silicon valley tech boom. The Celtic Tiger would have happened no matter who was in power.

What a government is responsible for however is managing the boom. FF have done nothing of the sort and let the property developers manage our boom, while rewarding the rich with tax cuts in the higher tax bands. FG/Labour produced a paper in 1997 detailing how to develop sustainable cities and manage growth. Since 1997 we have, under FF, realised the worst urban sprawl in Europe. We are the poster nation for eastern Europe on how not to splash your new found riches about.

MoominPapa

bemmet wrote:

For one moment can we be serious ......
The last thing we need is a change of government -
Why jeopardise it all ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Are you seriously suggesting that the out going government are competent?

I no fan of Enda Kenny but I'm more than willing to him and the alternative a go as there is no way in hell they could be any worse then the FF/PD coalition, they may turn out to be just as bad but not worse

bemmet

You make it sound as if the management group behind the neighbourhood under 12 team could have run the country and still boomed Lennox.

Does not wash with me I am afraid.
The celtic Tiger happened precisely because we were so poor in the 1980s!!!!
Well using your warped logic therefore we should be building statues to both Charlie and Garret for causing the mess in the 80,s which delivered us the celtic tiger?

no comments positive about a government who fought perticularly hard to maintain this corporate tax rate ?? against significant european effort to push us the opposite way . (including labours great PDR it must be said!!)

None either about a recognised third level education system that is in line with corporate requirements and able to deliver the precise skills required by these companies..
And your comment about small tech ..belies belief..
by small tech do you mean pfizer.... or lilly ,...or wyeth... or microsoft ..... wake up and smell the coffee my man ...big companies choose here for a mixture of reasons ... one of which is political stability and pragmatism ....
please if you are going to talk about our economy in such disparaging terms please try to understand it .
you talk of tech as if it was our economy ... have a closer look at what our main value exports was recently ..... as in the last three years ... not tech my man ....

And as for the urban sprawl and resultant traffic congestion - i have to agree with you living here as i do that it is a right pain in the ass and one of the worst signs of where we are as a country ...

but you know what - it sure beats the eighties when there was no traffic on the road ,because
A- there was hardly anyone driving to work
b- few could afford cars
c- there was rarely a second car in any house never mind a third.
d- we had mass emigration rather than immigration and therefore a declining population

You espouse the same rubbish as the opposition do here , for the good we have ,it was nothing to do with the government,it was all going to happen naturally.
For any of the downside,it was all the governments fault .
Your argument is so devoid of logic ,that you will probably only understand its fallacy when the people deliver their verdict next thursday week .
i remain convinced that they will ask the same ,sane questions i ask in my first email. And follow up by doing the sensible thing.

MoominPapa

bemmet wrote:

None either about a recognised third level education system that is in line with corporate requirements and able to deliver the precise skills required by these companies..

This was in place at the start of the 90s, if we had to wait for this crowd to sort out 3rd level how come the Celtic tiger had already taken off before they came to power?

bemmet wrote:

And your comment about small tech ..belies belief..
by small tech do you mean pfizer.... or lilly ,...or wyeth... or microsoft ..... wake up and smell the coffee my man ...big companies choose here for a mixture of reasons ... one of which is political stability and pragmatism ....

So you think this government are the main reason for this? I would have said the IDA who were there before during and will be there after this lot

bemmet wrote:

but you know what - it sure beats the eighties when there was no traffic on the road ,because

What has the hideous 80s, which were FFs fault, got to do with this election?

bemmet

To Moominpapa.
Your email scares me..

I,m no fan of endas but i,m willing to give him a go ...
give him a go ?... ah sure go on take a shot at it there Enda...

As for competent ..well... you wont read about this in the papers and no doubt you wont go looking so heres a few ...

Competent in helping to assist in the end of the horific conflict in northern ireland .Think so .
competent in increasing our foreign development aid to just under a billion euros ,up 500% since 97. yup ..think so
Competent on employment .... long term unemployment now sits at 1.3% ..yes that too gets my vote.
Competent on their monetary support for the Irish abroad who had to leave these shores under less viable times ?..support up 1900% since 1997. yes thats competent.
Competent on crime ..well i will leave that one to fine gaels own jim o keefe who had to admit last week that crime had not increased since 1997 ,even though our population has increased rapidly since then .yep my vote their too ..
Competent on tax rate reductions... down from 48 to 41% top tax rate since 97... well yes that also gets my vote.
competent on my pension ... 19 billion extra put into pension provision since 97 ... yes
competentcy in managing debt.... a billion euros per year extra put into servicing national debt interest repayments since 1997 ..yes thats competent to me
I could go on and on ,,,, but moomin papa ,you should go and find out the reality for yourself before you "give enda a go"..for five years with our economy and future .

MoominPapa

bemmet wrote:

To Moominpapa.
Your email scares me..

You must have a very delicate disposition

Competent on inflation? No
Competent on reducing stealth tax? No
Competent on urban development? No
Competent on public transport? No
Competent on traffic management? No
Competent on stability in the property/rental sectors? No
Competent on providing social housing? No
Competent on providing/facilitating childcare? No
Competent on providing anything approaching an adequate health service? No
Competent on drug/gang/gun crime? No
Competent on introducing new technologies? Hell no
Competent on reaching our commitments to providing foreign aid? No

All this despite the ten most prosperous years in the history of this, and most other, state.

Give Enda a go? Yeah I'll risk it

bemmet

Well moominpapa,thats the beauty of democracy ...you may get what you wish for . sometimes

but be careful ...because watching darling endas commentary recently ... its give give give..... have a look at how he would handle the nurses dispute ,

but look ... we are both entitled to our own views ...

Quick question though ,and this is meant genuinely ,were you of voting age in the eighties, do you have living knowledge of what it was like?

And why therefore one would not want ,in your words , to give an alternative a go ?

brianthebard

FF really have it hard if their canvassers have to start spreading propaganda on boards like this thread...

gandalf

The basic fact is this government had resources that all the previous governments could have only dreamed of. They had the ability to address so many issues and problems with the Health Service, Infrastructure, Public Transport and Housing. What did they do, bugger all they wasted and fluffed their way through 10 years. Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck would have been more forward looking.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded in the extreme imho.

Gael

brianthebard wrote:

FF really have it hard if their canvassers have to start spreading propaganda on boards like this thread...

The panic is setting in it seems.

bemmet

Brian,
Up to you to believe however I am not a canvasser.
However the real question is ,if one supports this govt ..one is a canvasser ...and if one does not ..one is a normal member of the public.
You dont by any chance like conspiracy theory movies brian.

gandalf

brianthebard wrote:

FF really have it hard if their canvassers have to start spreading propaganda on boards like this thread...

Its amazing isn't it all the negative campaigning is coming from the Government side. Obviously they cannot win because people know their promises are hollow based on their actions over the last 10 years.

Oh and to answer a question I remember the 80's well and Charles Haughey telling hard workers like my father to "tighten there belts" while he lorded it up bankrolled by his cronies. Looks like those bad old days haven't left the Developers party.

MoominPapa

bemmet wrote:

Quick question though ,and this is meant genuinely ,were you of voting age in the eighties, do you have living knowledge of what it was like?

Yes I was of voting age in the late eighties and know exactly what it was like

bemmet wrote:

And why therefore one would not want ,in your words , to give an alternative a go ?

The 80s were, mostly, FFs fault. So what is you're point? I asked you before what has the 80s got to do with this election. Are you convinced that if FF don't get back into government we are guaranteed to be back to 80s? And if so why?

brianthebard

bemmet wrote:

Brian,
Up to you to believe however I am not a canvasser.
However the real question is ,if one supports this govt ..one is a canvasser ...and if one does not ..one is a normal member of the public.
You dont by any chance like conspiracy theory movies brian.

Aw, are people being hard on you because of your blind faith in the government?
I mean "why jepordise it all?" Gosh that sounds awfully close to a party election slogan I've heard. Its not hard to see the changes that FG+Lab made the last time they were in government, but its awfully hard to see what the hell has changed for the better in the last five years of government.

is_that_so

bemmet wrote:

A couple of questions that seriously exercise my mind-


Am i the only one to be worried about this ?
Can we be serious about what may happen on the 24th of may next ?
Who is that man appearing on FG posters?
Have we deluded ourselves about the prosperity most of us ,and i accept not all of us ,have had recently.
How can Enda Kenny et al ,say that FF are fully responsible for any of the difficulties the country has whilst in government .And yet out of the other corner of its mouth say that FF can accept no plaudits for the economic miracle that Ireland has become.

Am I the only one who remembers the 1980,s -when we exported people and not products.
And yet the Whiners,Rabbite ,Kenny et al remind us that FF have been in government for 18 of the last 20 years.Well if they have done such a bad job of it ,how come the economy is recognised as being the model for copying and commentary throughout the rest of Europe.

Northern Ireland. Would the peace we see have been possible with a FG taoiseach?.... well lets look back on the last FG taoiseach where he publicly admitted that he could not and would not engage in negotiations with Sinn fein. he led a party who seemed comfortable and fully supportive of this position.How far would that thought have got us ?????????

For one moment can we be serious ......
The last thing we need is a change of government -
Why jeopardise it all ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I think there is an overreaction here tbh. And a touch of selective blindness. Much of the debt we were saddled with in the early 1980s in particular was as a result of the lunatic policies and promises of the 1977 election and brought to us by a FF government.

Dig back far enough in time and we can find any number of irrelevancies to support our case.

Current and future government are built on the past foundations and our abilities to learn from that. In that mix is included Labour and FG, FF and the PDs, who have all served in governments.

So on balance we have a choice, do we let the current incumbents pick up from where they left off , and lord there are any number of reasons not to do so, or do we say time for a change?
There are also any number of reasons as to why they should be replaced, many already posted. I could ask the very same question about Bertie.

So I am not sure what it is I am jeopardising but I won't lose any sleep if Kenny does get in. "A time for everything" as they say.
So exercise your mind , pick your poison and live with it.

bemmet

Moomin papa -eighties mostly fianna fails fault - one could ,seriously challenge that .
A fg alternative govt was in power from 81 to 82 and held the longest running govt from 82 to 87 ,think you might be being a little bit biased in your consideration of impact there.

And why are they releveant ,the eighties that is ,because i do not want either I ,or my young family to ever witness anything like them again .

I dont believe a combination of Enda ,Pat ,Trevor and probably a few ribald locally focussed independents as a government can give the country the clear steer it needs .

lucernarian

gandalf wrote:

Its amazing isn't it all the negative campaigning is coming from the Government side. Obviously they cannot win because people know their promises are hollow based on their actions over the last 10 years.

Oh and to answer a question I remember the 80's well and Charles Haughey telling hard workers like my father to "tighten there belts" while he lorded it up bankrolled by his cronies. Looks like those bad old days haven't left the Developers party.

Charlie Haughey gave us Temple Bar and the IFSC. And don't mix up bribery for prudent fiscal expenditure. The sad part about the "tighten our belts" speech was that he raised social welfare payments by 25% in the budget soon afterwards.

Didn't FG want to convert the land around Temple Bar into a large bus station, at the time?

Anyway, Fine Gael have most certainly exercised in negative campaigning, except they have proposed knee-jerk reactions to issues without thinking them through. E.g. such drivel as drunk-tanks in hospitals and drug testing in secondary schools. No, I don't want Enda Kenny as Taoiseach.

gandalf

I noticed you avoided the Health Service, Housing, Infrastructure and Public Transport in your ra-ra list. Did you feel they were to be avoided because you are ashamed of the Govenments performance in these areas ??

gandalf

To_be_confirmed wrote:

Charlie Haughey gave us Temple Bar and the IFSC. And don't mix up bribery for prudent fiscal expenditure. The sad part about the "tighten our belts" speech was that he raised social welfare payments by 25% in the budget soon afterwards.

I'll grant you that one of the only good things that Haughey did was the IFSC.

Didn't FG want to convert the land around Temple Bar into a large bus station, at the time?

Don't know tbh but CIE owned the lands around Temple Bar didn't they.

ateam

Thursday's television debate will show up Kenny.

nesf

Lennoxschips wrote:

The Celtic Tiger economy happened precisely because we were so poor in the 1980s.

It's just a tad more complicated than that to be honest.


My only worry about Kenny is his lack of Ministerial experience. His comments at the nurse's conference underlined that. However, there's enough experience in the party to make up for it so long as he listens to them. If they get elected he's going to be holding together a three party coalition which is not a trivial thing to do.

Bemmet I think that your complaints can be answered by pointing out that they are in opposition. Do you expect them to be singing FF's praises or something?

stepbar

bemmet wrote:

Moomin papa -eighties mostly fianna fails fault - one could ,seriously challenge that .
A fg alternative govt was in power from 81 to 82 and held the longest running govt from 82 to 87 ,think you might be being a little bit biased in your consideration of impact there.

And why are they releveant ,the eighties that is ,because i do not want either I ,or my young family to ever witness anything like them again .

I dont believe a combination of Enda ,Pat ,Trevor and probably a few ribald locally focussed independents as a government can give the country the clear steer it needs .

Ah, you remember the golden years of 77-81? FF didnt leave us FG'ers much to work with TBH. Mind you, isnt it ironic that our own taoiseach had the same problem managing his finances. Fast forward 20 years and TBH it doesnt suprise me that FF are still wasting money. The FF/PD gov in the last five years have been nothing short of a disaster.

28064212

The boom years of the Celtic Tiger were created by two things - a low corporation tax and EU funding. Most of the financial well-being in this country is down to private companies, not Fianna Fáil. If the current government was seriously competent, Ireland would be a lot better off than it is at the moment. The areas where the government have the greatest responsibilities (i.e. the public services: infrastructure; health; education; public transport) are way below-par, despite this being the best funded government in Irish history. This government has done some good things. The smoking ban was a great initiative. As I said, keeping the corporation tax low was important. But in reality they've failed in the most important areas.

Bringing up Northern Ireland as a serious issue in this election is ridiculous. Barring the virtual impossibility of Sinn Féin somehow managing to get into government, it's a non-issue. At best, Fianna Fáil haven't impeded the peace process. The real work has been done in Northern Ireland by Northern Irish politicians. Bertie managed to get his face in for a few photo-ops (his special talent), and suddenly he's the guy who oversaw the process? Give me a break.

I'll admit that I wouldn't be particularly enamoured of Enda Kenny, would much rather see Pat Rabbitte as Taoiseach. But I've yet to see any political ability be displayed by Ahern outside of being able to shake hands and smile. Unless having dodgy personal finances and being able to agree with everyone count as political abilities. McDowell at least has a brain in his head, but his policies make the American Republicans seem like a well-adjusted, central party.

And the 80s are irrelavent to this conversation, except perhaps as a cautionary tale

Thomas_S_Hunterson

My worry about Enda is that he is an inept politician.

The guy can't even deliver a speech. He has clearly been 'taught to talk' and still does it horrendously.

drdre

ateam wrote:

Thursday's television debate will show up Kenny.

I cant wait for that debate.It should be fun

is_that_so

sean_keevey wrote:

My worry about Enda is that he is an inept politician.

The guy can't even deliver a speech. He has clearly been 'taught to talk' and still does it horrendously.

Don't you remember Bertie's anorak days? :rolleyes:

gandalf

And Bertie still can't string 2 sentences together without looking and sounding like an extreme gombeen man :rolleyes:

stepbar

sean_keevey wrote:

My worry about Enda is that he is an inept politician.

The guy can't even deliver a speech. He has clearly been 'taught to talk' and still does it horrendously.

Bertie could do with elecution lessons alright...

nesf

gandalf wrote:

And Bertie still can't string 2 sentences together without looking and sounding like an extreme gombeen man :rolleyes:

Do you think that Enda is a better speaker than Bertie?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

nesf wrote:

Do you think that Enda is a better speaker than Bertie?

I can listen to Bertie without bursting out laughing. Endajust gets me every time.

It must be those forced hand gestures combined with the pallid emotion and textbook structuring. He just can't pull it off.

gandalf

Honestly I think Pat Shortt is a better speaker than Bertie. Enda Kenny certainly is.

Enda is certainly not the best I would prefer Pat Rabitte to be Taoiseach myself and he is certainly a very good orator. But I have to hand it to Kenny under his leadership FG have come back from the shambles they were 5 years ago.

nesf

gandalf wrote:

Honestly I think Pat Shortt is a better speaker than Bertie. Enda Kenny certainly is.

Enda is certainly not the best I would prefer Pat Rabitte to be Taoiseach myself and he is certainly a very good orator. But I have to hand it to Kenny under his leadership FG have come back from the shambles they were 5 years ago.

Personally I'd disagree. I've never liked Bertie as a speaker but Kenny is a very poor orator. He has trouble his keeping pace steady, doesn't sound natural when stressing words and he sounds like he's reading off a script (which is not a good thing for an orator). Kenny sounds forced, Bertie doesn't which is the difference for me.

Pat Rabitte is a far better speaker than either of them. Or Joe Higgins for that matter.

brianthebard

gandalf wrote:

Honestly I think Pat Shortt is a better speaker than Bertie. Enda Kenny certainly is.

Enda is certainly not the best I would prefer Pat Rabitte to be Taoiseach myself and he is certainly a very good orator. But I have to hand it to Kenny under his leadership FG have come back from the shambles they were 5 years ago.

Agree I've seen him speak a few times and he improves all the time. Ahern is still hemming and hawing throughout all his speeches.

nesf

nesf wrote:

Personally I'd disagree. I've never liked Bertie as a speaker but Kenny is a very poor orator. He has trouble his keeping pace steady, doesn't sound natural when stressing words and he sounds like he's reading off a script (which is not a good thing for an orator). Kenny sounds forced, Bertie doesn't which is the difference for me.

Remember John Bruton? His early attempts at oration were woefull.
There followed a metamorphasis where by everything was said sloooooower.
He obviously went to a coach.

Pat Rabitte is a far better speaker than either of them. Or Joe Higgins for that matter.

Both are excelent imho and neither have had the need to get public speaking coaching.
Kenny on the other hand needs it in the worst way.

I don't know what to make of Aherns oratory,it's clumsy at the best of times but I reckon theres a naked inteligence behind it (commonly known as bertiespeak and a phrase borrowed from sinn féin speak)-the naked inteligence being the ability to say a lot but say nothing at all.
You have to be clever to keep that up consistently.

spareman

To_be_confirmed wrote:

Didn't FG want to convert the land around Temple Bar into a large bus station, at the time?

Well maybe if we had listened to them, and put people before profit, we wouldn't be seeing the rush hour madness on O Connell street everyday, where we have 20/30 bus routes trying to pick up and drop off passengers in dangerous conditions, or the fact that buses have to use dangerous termini in the city center, putting lives at risk, as seen on the quays a few years ago.

In my opinion the present government are only interested in privatising essential public services rather than having to fund them and we are paying the price, public transport, hospitols, and schools have suffered under this government. I hold them responsible for the gap between rich and poor increasing dramaticly in the last 5 years, with the ssia scheme, and inflation, also benchmarking and wage agreements are increasing that gap further. It just amazes me to hear of millianares not paying a cent in tax, while people out there who struggle to pay there mortgage's are being hit with stealth taxes left right and center.

DeepBlue

Kenny has revitalised a party that seemed dead and buried five years ago and has made it a contender for Government along with Labour.
That displays that he has more than a sprinkling of political nous.
His performance with his keynote address at the Fine Gael Ard Fheis was considered impressive by many commentators and contrasted sharply with Berties insipid performance at his Ard Fheis so one can't really say he can't deliver a speech.

Kenny has won the credibility contest as the opinion polls show that a FG/Lab Government is the most likely outcome of the campaign so implicitly the voters have accepted the option of Kenny as Taoiseach.
He doesn't need to decisively win the Leader's debate - he just has to hold his own and not commit any major gaffes.

Lennoxschips

nesf wrote:

It's just a tad more complicated than that to be honest.

yeah, although i did rattle off all the other reasons as well...

nesf

Lennoxschips wrote:

yeah, although i did rattle off all the other reasons as well...

Yeah, sorry I meant to quote those as well.

nesf

Tristrame wrote:

Remember John Bruton? His early attempts at oration were woefull.
There followed a metamorphasis where by everything was said sloooooower.
He obviously went to a coach.

True. Coaches are part and parcel of this kind of thing.

Tristrame wrote:

Both are excelent imho and neither have had the need to get public speaking coaching.
Kenny on the other hand needs it in the worst way.

Agreed, I really think that's the difference in them. I've actually never been convinced that you can teach someone to speak affectively in public.

Tristrame wrote:

I don't know what to make of Aherns oratory,it's clumsy at the best of times but I reckon theres a naked inteligence behind it (commonly known as bertiespeak and a phrase borrowed from sinn féin speak)-the naked inteligence being the ability to say a lot but say nothing at all.
You have to be clever to keep that up consistently.

Bertie's oratory is strange alright. It's clumsy and not at all polished but he doesn't sound like someone who was taught to speak if you know what I mean. The problems with Bertie are "natural" where Kenny's are both natural and taught.

Dirk Gently

nesf wrote:

Bertie's oratory is strange alright. It's clumsy and not at all polished .

TBH I think this actually helps him. I think people identify with his "one of the people" image he likes to project. Most people don't follow politics and might not even follow all the points made in a political speech but they can identify with bertie because he's speaks like an ordinary Joe and is not viewed as being elite. The more polished the speaker the more he could distance himself from ordinary people. I reckon Pat Rabbitte has the right balance but I don't think Bertie or FF should be too worried about how Bertie is perceived, especially seen as how he's only going up against Kenny in the live debate next week. Berties style of oratory would only be shown up as a weak link if he was challenged by someone equal to Pat Rabbitte or Joe Higgins in a live debate (with help from a chair who didn’t let him stutter his way onto another subject when asked a hard question). I would have included Mick McDowell in there too except nobody takes him seriously anymore.

InFront

I don't think an awful lot of EK's oratory skills, nor is it an important trait in a leader.

Having said that, he has improved a lot, he comes across as very comfortable in personal interviews (and the Thursday debate, I would think) and informal situations as opposed to in front of a crowd of several hundred. The FG TV political broadcast is quite well delivered on his behalf.

Yes, there are better-spoken FG deputies like Richard Bruton or Olivia Mitchell, who demonstrate more explicit leadership skills than Kenny. But when you think about Enda Kenny's success in bringing the party back from the brink, and turning it around, clearly the party saw something valuable in him when they chose him to lead them into this election, that they knew would serve the party well. Because they were right, his coalition are leading in the polls.
In many ways I think Richard Bruton should be leading the party into Government in 2007, but I was wrong about Enda Kenny, and could well be wrong about Richard Bruton.

murphaph

With regards Ireland's economic transformation which began in the late 80's, people seem to be forgetting the Tallaght Strategy. I cannot in a million years see FF in opposition supporting an incumbent government for the betterment of the nation.

nesf

InFront wrote:

I don't think an awful lot of EK's oratory skills, nor is it an important trait in a leader.

Having said that, he has improved a lot, he comes across as very comfortable in personal interviews (and the Thursday debate, I would think) and informal situations as opposed to in front of a crowd of several hundred. The FG TV political broadcast is quite well delivered on his behalf.

Yes, there are better-spoken FG deputies like Richard Bruton or Olivia Mitchell, who demonstrate more explicit leadership skills than Kenny. But when you think about Enda Kenny's success in bringing the party back from the brink, and turning it around, clearly the party saw something valuable in him when they chose him to lead them into this election, that they knew would serve the party well. Because they were right, his coalition are leading in the polls.
In many ways I think Richard Bruton should be leading the party into Government in 2007, but I was wrong about Enda Kenny, and could well be wrong about Richard Bruton.

I'd disagree about it being unimportant, perhaps in an age of soundbites not as important as it once was but speeches from the party leaders will influence people on the party as a whole.


I completely agree about the Bruton vs Kenny thing though. For all his perceived lack of leadership skills Kenny (or at least his "bloc") have what it takes to pull an ailing party back into line which does count for something. My only problem is that I really can't see how he did it. I have heard though that he's very good one-to-one and this would help a lot in forming links with people and coaxing them around on an issue.

jmayo

What always gets me is the arguement trotted out that Enda and most of Fine Gael front bench have no experience so can't be trusted.
If you were to use that analogy with a soccer team, you would find Johnny Giles still playing for Ireland.

FF/PDs have been in power for last 10 years, so yes they have experience.

But in those ten years what have they achieved?
In the health service, why are people still on trolleys, why are there waiting lists for operations?
How come we now hear of somebody been gunned down in one of cities almost on a daily basis?
Why do we hear that our supposed top security prison is run by the prisoners sponsored by Carphone Warehouse and the local petshop?

Why do people have to spend more and more of their lives stuck in traffic trying to commute to and from towns/villages with no amnetities miles from their employment?

The more FF harp on about the lack of experience the other side has, the more they remind the voters that they have been in for far too long and have got wasteful, arrogant, complacent, stale, lacking in ideas and drive.

jmayo

jmayo wrote:

What always gets me is the arguement trotted out that Enda and most of Fine Gael front bench have no experience so can't be trusted.

I don't agree with that.

I much prefer to look at their record. Terrible in the 1980s, less so last time round. I don't know if Enda is as inept as Fitzgerald or Bruton, but that's not enough for me tbh.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote:

I don't agree with that.
I much prefer to look at their record. Terrible in the 1980s, less so last time round. I don't know if Enda is as inept as Fitzgerald or Bruton, but that's not enough for me tbh.

Come on, so you reckon Charlie and co were a success in the 1980s?
Regarding last time of FG/Lab government, the boom that was to become the "Celtic Tiger" was only beginning 1996/1997, pre telecomms and ecomerce take off world wide.
No government, FG/Lab or FF have had the resurces available to the FF/PD regime over last ten years and look at the incompetence they have managed.

You can argue that we now have jobs (no immigration) and some new infrastructure.
But look at where the jobs are and the fact that they are in non-sustainable industry (and from your other posting on different threads I know where you stand on the housing bubble), look at the fact that the infrastrucutre projects come in late, way over budget and we are paying for them for years through tolls.
Look at the mess that is the health service and wastage of tax payers money on projects such as PPARS and e-voting.
Look at the future social consequences of the lack of proper planning that results in small villages becoming satelite commuter towns to Dublin overnight.

is_that_so

Deleted User wrote:

I don't agree with that.

I much prefer to look at their record. Terrible in the 1980s, less so last time round. I don't know if Enda is as inept as Fitzgerald or Bruton, but that's not enough for me tbh.

Why do we end up talking about the 1980s?:rolleyes: The world has changed substantially since then and comparisons or even references to that time are pretty irrelevant. 1980 is also a time before some people on boards were even a twinkle in the eye.

There is truth in the argument that they don't have as much experience, seeing as FF have been in government for so long. But the added spin implies that they obviously can't be trusted.With FF getting hammered in many other areas,down in the polls and at serious risk of losing, it is a logical swipe. But the cupboard must be getting bare if that is all they have left.

jmayo

Ah come on now don't denegrate the 1980s.
There was the music, the fashion for charvet shirts, the fact we could barely afford a Lada never mind a BMeeer, the lovely trips abroad to get work rather than just take in the sights on our year long world tour, the long queues outside the US Embassy not in protest but in hope of blagging a green card much like our Mexican brethern on the Rio Grande border.

Ahh they were the days, and sure we still have reminders of them to this day, the health service been one that springs to mind.

Time Magazine

Getting a little bit back to the original topic, the "OMGZ don't you remember the 80's???!??cos0??" line is starting to bug me. It was a completely different demographic then, with different relations to other nations, with a different world economy. "FG were in power in the 80's and things weren't great therefore FG in power in 2007 is bad" logic can be argued against pretty easily.

Things were bad in the 80's. Enda Kenny became a Minister for a short period in the 90's and suddenly things picked up and have stayed great since. Using simple scientific fact, Enda Kenny as Taoiseach would make the entire economy pick up and stay great for another 10-15 years. Fact.

jmayo

jmayo wrote:

You can argue that we now have jobs (no immigration) and some new infrastructure.
look at the fact that the infrastrucutre projects come in late, way over budget and we are paying for them for years through tolls.
Look at the mess that is the health service and wastage of tax payers money on projects such as PPARS and e-voting.
Look at the future social consequences of the lack of proper planning that results in small villages becoming satelite commuter towns to Dublin overnight.

We have lots of immigration, and no emigration. That's a pretty good barometer of how a country is faring. After all, these are people who are staking their and their family's future on getting to the right country, as opposed to the likes of you and I talking glibly on a website, with all or biases and preconceptions.

You might quote a source for the sweeping overgeneralisation about all infrastructural matters.

The health service. It was a mess. The introduction of hundreds of thousands of people relying on the service can't have made things any easier. But things are improving. As for PPARS and evoting and traffic jams in West Dublin, I'll sleep tonight.

But either way, is the best that you can say about Enda is that the current crowd have made mistakes? That's hardly a ringing endorsement. You're argument could be used to say why Hanafin or D Ahern should be leader, or even Rabitte.