So i want to become a Pilot...

NiSmO

This post has been deleted.

Captain Boycott

Do you want to learn to fly....or be a pilot?

If you want to learn to fly, there are plenty of good flying schools. In Ireland, Weston Airport is well supplied with schools - do a Google search.

If you want to be a pilot my advice to you, honestly, is don't do it.
You will have to find around 60,000 euro of your own money to pay for BASIC training, and there is absolutely no gaurentee of an airline job after that. If you find employment it will most likely be at the bottom end of the market - with a low cost carrier like Ryanair. They will ask you for another 20K to pay for your jet type rating, and then you will be paid a very poor salary. Certainly not enough to pay back the interest on the 80K you've spent on training and still have a life - run a car, pay a mortgage etc.

If you can find the money, and don't mind poor pay, you can go ahead with your plan - but the lifestyle you'll have to look forward to will be very difficult. Lots of working at highly unsocial hours - getting up at 3AM or 4AM for weeks on end to report to the airport. Long days, with no breaks, no food provided, no drinks provided (you'll be charged for a glass of water). You'll be bullied by your management, and if you complain you'll be sacked without a moments hesitation.
You'll spend the rest of your life carrying an extremely onerous responsibility on your back, and you will receive little or no recognition for it in terms of remuneration - expect the current slide in pilots pay and conditions to continue well into the future.
You will be required to meet very high standards of performance in twice annual simulator licence checks, annual line checks (on the aircraft), and twice annual medicals - failure in any of them will mean an immediate end to your career, and possible bankruptcy.

You will be required to go wherever your employer sends you to live - and he will not pay for hotel accomodation. You may find yourself sent to some backwoods area of Poland, or the like, for a few years, followed by an order to move to another base without notice or explanation. If you refuse - there's the door. Plenty of other starry eyed youngsters waiting for your job if you don't knuckle down.

Still want to be a pilot?
Get the facts before you do something you'll regret.
If you were my kid I'd do all in my power to stop you ruining your life.

Owen

Do your PPL, see if you actually like it. After that, if you're still convinced, go meet some Pilots. Meet the young ones who are enthusiastic, and meet the old ones who are suicidal. Don't forget though, that no matter what job you do, if you do the same job for 40 years, you'll probably hate it too.

WellyJ

There goes all my hopes and dreams

FlutterinBantam

I won't quote Capt Boycott as the list of negatives are to long and boring.

if you are really enthused,go for it.. the rewards are worth it.

Don't listen to auld cynics whose negativity would encourage nobody to do anything.

Don't get me wrong, it will NOT be easy, but then nothing worthwhile is;)

WellyJ

FlutterinBantam wrote:

I won't quote Capt Boycott as the list of negatives are to long and boring.

if you are really enthused,go for it.. the rewards are worth it.

Don't listen to auld cynics whose negativity would encourage nobody to do anything.

Don't get me wrong, it will NOT be easy, but then nothing worthwhile is;)

How about listing the rewards as there seem to be none judging from his post?

Surely there must be pros!

FlutterinBantam

Sure thing.... far and away above the average pay for doing what you like.

Guts of a prime ministers salary if you sit in the left hand seat of a widebody.

That's enough incentive I would opine.

Steyr

Join the Irish Air Corps! Go for it!

Captain Boycott

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Sure thing.... far and away above the average pay for doing what you like.

Above average pay? You mean the industrial average wage of €32200? Why don't you tell the guy how long he'll take to make anything near that - years!

Guts of a prime ministers salary if you sit in the left hand seat of a widebody.

His chances of getting into the LHS (Command) of a widebody jet are slim and will take many years - if he's very very lucky he might make it in 15 or 20 years, as long as he's prepared to work in the Middle East or some other dangerous crap hole. If he wants to stay in Ireland - make that 25 years, minimum, and only if he can get hired by Aer Lingus. The intervening years will be spent on salaries far below the stellar values you suggest.

By the way FB - what type are you flying? I assume you actually fly for an airline - as you seem to infer? Would that be assuming too much?

Join the Irish Air Corps! Go for it!

And get paid even worse, with very little flying, then spend years trying to figure a way out of your commission. Having gotten out - now try getting a job with zero commercial experience, and an extra 10 years down the seniority list from the guy who went straight into an airline.
The Air Corp is professional suicide - unless you want to stay a Brown Shoe for ever.

Pclancy suggested he read PPRune for a bit of research on the subject.
I did a quick search, and this is what popped up. Enjoy.

Views from a newly hired Ryanair First Officer
VC10L1011: Unlike the majority of people who will come on here and offer an opinion on a company they don't work for, as a recently hired Pilot I can offer you some facts, and not what I have heard down the pub. I do this as a warning and not looking for sympathy.

The first Major problem you’re going to encounter is the time between starting your type rating course and doing your base check, which is the point you start to get paid. This used to be 4-6 weeks. There are a frightening amount STILL waiting, UNPAID , 7+ MONTHS since they started the TR. This is not an isolated incident, it’s a regular occurrence.

So the first question is asking yourself can you live for the thicker end of a year with no money?

The Pay is the second Major problem. The Deal was changed at the end of the summer. You will now get zero sector pay during the first 6 months of your contract. It used to be that you would get sector pay after line check. No, you get a basic rate of STG 8900 per annum while training. This works out at about STG 7.50 an hour when flying 100 hrs a month, or about STG 270 a week. For Six months!(that's equivalent to 400 euro per week. CB) After the first six months, you will still only be on half sector pay for the following six months. Don't forget sector pay is the larger part of the salary here. You might think like I did: "Fine I'll be at home it will be a tight few months, but I'll get through it," It will be worth it in the end.. ", you keep telling yourself. But hang on a minute, you will almost certainly be sent abroad for line training for 6 months, and then probably moved again after the 6 months. So you have to pay for 6 month worth of B&Bs. On STG 8900 a year.

It’s very hard to admit when you have made a mistake, no one wants to admit how foolish they have been, but I will. I was a fool to take this "job".

You will need 40K Euro at least to start. Type rating, 5-600 Euro for the uniform, airside pass, background checks, flights, hotels, B&Bs, salary for 7 months, and the sheer heartache of it all.

I was blinded by the whole thing, I thought I had done well to pass the interview; I was desperate for a job after waiting so long with no replies from any other companies.

The price of admission was too high however. I now have an unbelievable level of debt and I make less then the No.3 Cabin Crew for a year. Think very carefully before you take this thing on.

Would I do it again? No way.

By the way PClancy......"There are thousands of pilots that love their jobs and work for airlines that do treat them well and reward them fairly for their work".
Is that a fact!
You're the guy pining for a look in the cockpit on another thread, aren't you? Yet you can tell us about what 'thousands' of pilots think of their job?
Where did you get this amazing insight? Please explain!
Before you flip anyone off with pseudo psychology, make sure you actually can back up what you say with valid personal experience, or at least some solid references - spare us the waffle and sentimental nonsense.

Captain Boycott

Oh - and don't forget to read this: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=214074

jmayo

And what are the chances of getting into the Irish Air Corp?
Do some introductory flights to check if you like flying, do a ppl, see if you actually like flying, also see if you have an aptitude for it.

When get ppl do a full commerical class medical to check out the medical side.
If everything ok medical wise, then either ask parents for lots of money or get a very friendly bank manager. Then off you go.
For training you can also look at using schools abroad but as previous poster mentioned you need to ensure that they are JAA accredited (note this is usally through CAA and not IAA). Advantages of doing overseas is better weather and get training and license done much quicker. Also you will end up doing most of your hour building abroad.

BTW you do not have to join Ryan Air to start off, if you are willing to work overseas you can find some very interesting work.
As Captain Boycott mentioned it is a long tough road, you will not have disposable cash like your mates, you will probably be broke lot of time (unless you have rich daddy), you may end up working first jobs for little money but the advantage is you will be flying and ain't that better than sitting at a desk for 8 hours.

FlutterinBantam

His chances of getting into the LHS (Command) of a widebody jet are slim and will take many years - if he's very very lucky he might make it in 15 or 20 years, as long as he's prepared to work in the Middle East or some other dangerous crap hole. If he wants to stay in Ireland - make that 25 years, minimum, and only if he can get hired by Aer Lingus. The intervening years will be spent on salaries far below the stellar values you suggest.

By the way FB - what type are you flying? I assume you actually fly for an airline - as you seem to infer? Would that be assuming too much?

What I do for a living has nothing to do with the OPs question.

Can you remain on topic please.

Captain Boycott

It has everything to do with it, and indeed I seem to recall you asking people on other threads what their occupation was - in the event they might have 'conflicts of interest' flavouring their postings. N'est-ce-pas?

The importance of your occupation to this particular issue is that you could be giving advice to the unwary when you know nothing about what you are talking about!

For the record - I am a widebody jet Captain, with 28 years experience.

jmayo - your suggestion is close to what I would give any youngster interested in flying.
Do some PPL flying in your spare time - get a paper round to pay for it (or whatever). If you can't afford powered flight - look at gliding as an excellent (and maybe better) option. You'll value the experience all the more for having done it and paid for it yourself.
Meantime, get to College, earn a qualification, and get a good career in a solid profession.
When you are earning money you can pursue your flying interests through GA flying in your spare time. Or make a MATURE choice to sacrifice everything for a career in aviation.

But remember what they say - the sure way to turn your hobby into a bore is to take it up for a living.
Flying commercially is not 'fun'. It isn't meant to be for entertainment. Its a serious business, with extremely high demands. Don't be misled by wannabes and wafflers. You'll regret it if you are.

Owen

OP, I'm still toying with the idea of going commerical, but it's extraordinarily expensive, and at the moment I don't have the cash. I'm happy in the non-aviation job I have at the moment, but an alternative, would be to teach in the GA segment, you'd be flying all the time, and the job certainly wouldn't get boring with all the SPL's trying to kill you

PCros

Dont mind Captain Boycott! 9 out of 10 pilots I meet will tell you to go for it and get your ppl and work your way up.

Theres always one arseh0le to spoil it. He either is a grumpy pilot who got stuck in many crap companies flying in the middle east etc or else hes a wannabe getting his information off PPrune.net. Also stay away from that website, its full of people like him.

Good luck in getting your ppl, thats the first step.

Captain Boycott

PCros wrote:

Dont mind Captain Boycott! 9 out of 10 pilots I meet will tell you to go for it and get your ppl and work your way up.

Theres always one arseh0le to spoil it. He either is a grumpy pilot who got stuck in many crap companies flying in the middle east etc or else hes a wannabe getting his information off PPrune.net. Also stay away from that website, its full of people like him.

Good luck in getting your ppl, thats the first step.

So in summary - everyone else is wrong, and you are right.
Because YOU say so.

May you follow your own advice, and suffer the consequences.

The OP asked for info - I'm giving him a dose of reality, as opposed to your starry eyed bull.
Its no skin off my nose what he, or anyone else, chooses to do with their lives.

I would point out however that other respondents here may well have vested interests in talking up the rosy picture of commercial piloting. The guys who are instructing in flying schools - building hours for their own CPL - they have a vested interest in sucking in more unsuspecting victims to help pay their salaries and add hours to their own logbooks.
The flying schools and their owners likewise have the same vested interest. The Training Organisations, who need new recruits to generate business. The airline HR depts who want to see the market flooded with desperate young pilots - to help keep their pilot salary bills depressed, and makes sure they can recruit people willing to pay for their own training. The IAA and CAA who need licensing fees to generate their income.

Its all a big money-go-round, and the innocents get dragged in over their heads.

Then there are those sad individuals already trapped in the training mill - who are beginning to feel disillusioned, but don't want to hear the truth of what they've let themselves in for and spent tens of thousands of euro on already. A lot of people just don't like having their little bubble burst.

Which are you?

My advice? - he can take it or leave it. Its his own neck.

PS Did you just refer to me as an "arseh0le"? I think you need to watch your language before you get a banning. Grow up.

PCros

My advice is he should go for it.

I did much of my training in Fort Lauderdale and skipped alot of the rip off here. I saved a few grand too but yes I'm still in debt but wont be for much longer.

Its also about not jumping into the first company you see and then getting stuck there for years.

I'm doing the exact same as my uncle did who is now a captain on a certain Irish airline and he is a happy man with a great lifestyle!

Why stay in the industry for 28 years if you dont like it??

Captain Boycott

Where did I say I didn't like it?
See how your mind is playing tricks on you?
Try reading, and listening, rather than just assuming. Basic CRM.

I started 28 years ago, and have had the best years of the business - despite its ups and downs. I'm only a couple of years from retirement and happy enough with my position - I've paid my dues and I'm near the top of a very large heap.

You, and young NiSmO (the OP) are just starting out, or thinking about it. You're at the bottom of that heap, and guess what - sh1t rolls downhill.
The future career you have to look forward to is utterly changed from what I experienced. Thanks to the likes of O'Leary, you are now nothing more than an inconvenient expense, which must be reduced to the absolute minimum, so Tom Dick and Harry can have 1 euro flights to their piss-up in Prague.

Would I put myself in your shoes?
Not on your nelly. Never in a million years.
You are going to be worked till you bleed - and you'll be paid peanuts for the pleasure. Maybe you'll even end up paying HIM for the pleasure! You're already on that treadmill.

"Then there are those sad individuals already trapped in the training mill - who are beginning to feel disillusioned, but don't want to hear the truth of what they've let themselves in for and spent tens of thousands of euro on already. A lot of people just don't like having their little bubble burst.

Which are you?"

Bulls-eye! There's your answer.

Good luck. You'll need it.

Owen

Lads, cut out the personal jibes. One side is negative, the other is positive, and you'll never convince each other of your arguments. Let the OP find the middle ground, and do some investigating based on both your opinions.

jmayo

PCros what is your gripe with pprune ?
Did you train with Flight Safety ?

BTW Captain Boycott you wouldn't happen to have been a glider pilot by any chance?
You know what they say about turning a big fortune into a small fortune in aviation...

Franz Ferdinand

ned78 wrote:

Lads, cut out the personal jibes. One side is negative, the other is positive, and you'll never convince each other of your arguments. Let the OP find the middle ground, and do some investigating based on both your opinions.

Is this a Discussion Board, or a 'blow-smoke-up-your-ass-and-cross-your-fingers' board?
Do you really expect us to give equal credence to the opinion of a PPL wannabe and a 28 year commercial pilot?
I know who I'll listen to......

Owen

There is a charter in this Forum Franz Ferdinand, it does make reference to keep personal insults off the threads.

FlutterinBantam

OP my last advice to you is if you really want to fly commercially ,check it out fully and if the dream still lives -go for it.

In aviation, as in every walk of life ,there are the cynics, the malcontents,the whingers and the soured individuals who believe that life dealt them a hand of bad cards, and that the world owes them a living.

Your task is to plough your own furrow and take solid advice, but ignore those coming at you with enough"baggage" to fill a 747.

very best of luck and hopefully you will realise your ambition.

PCros

Who is the ppl wannabe Ferdinand? Post something thats credible or go somewhere else and post crap.

Captian B: I'm not at the bottom of any hill and I'm closer to the top at the moment. Only a few weeks away from entry.

I can understand some of points but at least tell us about the good points, all I can see is the bad points (your second post).

Captain Boycott

PCros wrote:

Captian B: I'm not at the bottom of any hill and I'm.........only a few weeks away from entry.

God give me strength!:rolleyes:

I can understand some of points but at least tell us about the good points....

Err...the view? And only 2 years to go.

OP my last advice to you is if you really want to fly commercially ,check it out fully and if the dream still lives -go for it.
In aviation, as in every walk of life ,there are the cynics, the malcontents,the whingers and the soured individuals who believe that life dealt them a hand of bad cards, and that the world owes them a living.

More great advice - from a nobody.
Do you work in Radio? You seem to have a lot of threads, whinging about RTE.

There is a charter in this Forum Franz Ferdinand, it does make reference to keep personal insults off the threads.

Waahayyy...a moderator! The big guns are out now!
Please sir, I want to report a personal insult. In post #16 PCros called me an asshole. What are you gonna do about it?:mad:

Owen

I'm not a Moderator, just pointing out the obvious.

FlutterinBantam

heh heh well done to PCros.... seems to have put the wheels right on the numbers.:D

Captain Boycott

ned78 wrote:

I'm not a Moderator, just pointing out the obvious.

Well maybe you should've pointed them out earlier - to PCros re assholes.:D
Actually, you seem to spend a lot of your time telling everyone else how to behave. Have you always been a do-gooder?
Why aren't you a mod?

C'mon FB - tell us what you do in Radio? Screw in the lightbulbs at Newstalk?

RoundyMooney

Relax lads, it's only a forum

Captain Boycott

Where's that charter he referred to?
I wanna read it!
Does it say anything about 'conflicts of interest'?
Perhaps FB could advise on that....

Owen

Digging a hole here guys ... one or the both of you will end up banned at this rate.