Hidden History ,De velara , nazis in Ireland

Lazairus

Look was watching a repeat of Nazis in Ireland on digital 529 last night ,
very interesting ,

but what i want to know, is why Ireland didn't welcome more jewish people in Ireland , and how is it that more Nazis got in ,

Was De Valera A coward??

its my view that he was an utter and complete coward ,

ie the way he abandoned the treaty ,didn't go to London and then became the main opposition force to the Irish treaty

then would not take jewish refugees into Ireland ,before and during the war,
but only took 500 jewish children after the war, clearly people in Fianna Fail
were pro Nazis,Ireland from 1940 to -80's was a seriously F**ked up Country
thats another reason to hate the catholic Church

Would have M. Collins done better to welcome in jewish refugees before during and after the war?

O'Leprosy

I'm not trying to be smart Lazairus, but the programme only mentioned 3 war criminals, the Croatian, the Breton and Peter Menten ( Dutch). It's not exactly that Ireland was like Argentina or something, with 100's of Nazi's been openly welcomed, though going by the tone of the programme you'd think that to be the case.

Yeah, watched it myself on History channell ( which is my favourite channell ). Agree with what you mostly said Lazairus, "only took 500 jewish children after the war"..." Ireland from 1940 to -80's was a seriously F**ked up Country" etc ( still is in my opinion, but that's another discussion !). But I don't agree that many people in Fianna Fail were pro Nazi ( Fine Gael would have been a better breeding ground for pro Nazism, with FG's flirtation of the fascist Blueshirts and their public support for Franco). That bastion of democracy and human rights, the Irish Independent was staunchly pro Franco also. The Oliver Flanagann thing was a typical knee jerk/red neck/ignorance of the times. Flanagann was a Legion of Mary type of gob****e ( he once said in the Dail that " there was no sex in Ireland until television " - Serious !!! ). If they had been say, Bosnian Muslims,Serbian Orthodox or whatever, the same knee jerk reaction would have applied, or black or Indian children for that matter, not neccessarily because of a specific dislike of Jewish people. Dev ofcourse got round the issue in his Machevillian way. Dev a total coward, well I don't totally agree. His stance on keeping us neutral was very courageous, if FG had been in power they would have got us undoubtably invovled. That civil servant Peter Berry was unquestionably a bigot and a damned sneaky one at that.
But my view of the programme was that it was highly misleading. I listened to a discussion on the Joe Duffy show, (unfortunately I didn't get it all), but Joe Briscoe came on to state catergorically that there was no secret hidden agenda of support for Nazi war criminals in Ireland at the time. The show was slated by professional historians with the makers of the programme lost for words and explainations of it's facts and conclusions. If we take the first guy, the Croat who murdered maybe a million Serbs. Released from an Allied POW camp, aided and abetted by a pro Nazi in a Franciscian order in Switzerland, he arrived to Ireland with the highest of credentials from the Catholic Church as well as his release papers from the POW camp, stating he was a refugee etc. In light of the times, with the anarchy and turmoil Europe must have been in after the war and hence making it almost impossible to reasonably establish a person's credentials ( no computers or internet then ! ), and with such recommendations from senior members of a religious order, do you think the Irish civil service were in a postion to turn him back ? I don't think so. Afterall, he was in America almost a decade before he was suspected to be a war criminal, and it took several decades in court to establish that he actually was.
Anyway must go, but I'll post what I can remember of what was said on the Joe Duffy show regarding the background and entry of these war criminals to Ireland in the anarchy of those days.

DublinWriter

Lazairus wrote:

Was De Valera A coward??

You really have to understand that Dev was under the indirect thumb of the Archbishop's House at that period, more so than any other.

In turn, Archbishop's House was under the thumb of the Vatican, and it's worth reading about how they turned a blind eye to the plight of the Jews in WW2.

"Hitler's Pope" by John Cornwell is a good primer, there's an abridged version of it here: http://emperors-clothes.com/vatican/hitlers.htm

I think Dev always had the intention that he wanted Ireland to be 'pure Catholic' state at the back of his mind.

Remember that Ireland had a thriving native Jewish community at the turn of the 19th Century. A community numbering thousands is now reduced to double-digits.

You can't ask the question "why weren't Jewish refugees allowed in?" without asking the question "Why did all the existing Jews leave?".

Lazairus

O'Leprosy
it was late last nite when i wached that program and as it was late , emotions were high !!!
,
develara was not a coward, but i still dislike him .

I my self have a great interest in history
I love to learn the mistakes people made , World leaders , battles , generals ,
and then debate them.

so ,
that program was a bit eccentric ,the most Interesting point was Cathal being in the RaF and the facts were not provable,Ok so its fair to say that Nazi and fascism were somewhat present in Ireland , but not in large influences sufferances to weild power , yes there was the blueshirts and i have watched the program on Eoin o Duffy , Were the blue Shirts ever a treat ??? So at the end of the day all roads lead back to the catholic Church .i agree Dublin Writer , the catholic church during the 1930's was to blame , theres one pope who had many sins to his name.

Yes i do agree , that Irish society should have welcomed more immigrants into Ireland ,Irish people with that knee jerk altitude Should be ashamed .

I read in the Sunday independent , that when Muhammad Ali fought in Ireland, he asked "where are all the black people? " lol circa 1960's!!!!

u can listen to that show , just go to rte.ie got to know the date tho

brianthebard

No the blueshirts were not a threat, they weren't really fascist either, they just took on the appearance of fascist groups.

Aedh Baclamh

And would I be right in saying that Mr. Folens was mentioned in this programme? Was he a Nazi member, or did they just decide to paint him with the same brush?

Was hard to look at this when it was on a few months back as it was really awful, and I had to laugh at the presenters dismay at being not allowed to wear his RAF uniform here in Ireland at the time.

PHB

The Blueshirts were never a threat, and were never fascists really.
It's all just bull****.

Snickers Man

Question:
How many people did the Blueshirts kill in Ireland?

Answer: none. Which must make them the most insincere, incompetent, uncommitted fascist organisation ever. Bar none.

The Blueshirts were a classic example of people in Ireland latching on to a perceived trend in Europe and copying all of its style (salutes, uniforms, mumbo jumbo about the Corporate State, hysterical denounciations of "communism" etc)

Other examples include all those student bozos in the 1970s who became supposedly fanatical devotees of Mao, and the current generation of Irish neocons who are sincere and persistent apologists for the "war on terror" as long as they don't have to do anything so committed as actually fight in it.

As for the comment about the declining Irish Jewish population: I don't think it was ever that big and far from it being currently in "double digits" it is still about 3,000 strong. Admitedly, that is a tiny community, especially for one that likes to marry within its own religion and so it is below critical mass needed for growth. A lot of Jewish people leave to marry into larger communities in England and elsewhere. Not to mention of course the Aliyah effect, common to all Jewish communities, of people choosing to emigrate to Israel.

O'Leprosy

DublinWriter - You can't ask the question "why weren't Jewish refugees allowed in?" without asking the question "Why did all the existing Jews leave?".

Good question DW. I suppose only a person with a Jewish background could answer that. ( BTW, Islam is Ireland's (and America's ! ) fastest growing religion 0.8% ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Relig-ire-2006.PNG

Lazairus "that Irish society should have welcomed more immigrants into Ireland ,Irish people with that knee jerk altitude Should be ashamed . " To be honest L., since thousands of Irish people were immigrating themselves, the state wasn't in much of a position to be bringing people into the country. Indeed, I remember vaguely hearing that some several hundred refugees from Hungary were taken into the country in 1956 after the uprising there. After a few weeks they started to riot, basically saying that they did not want to be stranded in a poor country like Ireland ! That's gratitude for you . So the good ol' US of A came to their rescue and they all moved en masse there.

Anyway, back to the programme. ( I will try trace the particuliar Joe Duffy show down on rte.ie ). Didn't hear what was said about the Breton Nationalist and his entery into the country, but I think the programme said (and correct me if I'm wrong) he came thru England where he was for several weeks/months. If that was the case and it was that obvious he was a war criminal, why didn't the police arrest him there ( altough it is fact that many war criminals from Europe were welcomed by America and Britain for scientific/technology/intelligence reasons ). But as I said in my previous posting, in light of the times, with the anarchy and turmoil Europe must have been in after the war and hence making it almost impossible to reasonably establish a person's credentials ( no computers or internet then ! ), rather than a conscious agenda of harbouring war criminals.

As for the Dutch Nazi Peter Menten coming into the country, he came here many years after the war, and it was only in the 1970's thanks to the investigative journalist that this monster was discovered. Even the Dutch and Polish govts. didn't know about him. But the way the programme implied, Menten came into the country knowing with a wink and a nod that it was soft on Nazi's. Ficitional rubbish.

O'Leprosy

Aedh Baclamh wrote:

And would I be right in saying that Mr. Folens was mentioned in this programme? Was he a Nazi member, or did they just decide to paint him with the same brush?

Was hard to look at this when it was on a few months back as it was really awful, and I had to laugh at the presenters dismay at being not allowed to wear his RAF uniform here in Ireland at the time.

Well, what I remember what was said about Folens on the Liveline was that he never denied that he was in the Flemish SS Legion and often openly admitted it. But he claimed to have only worked as an interpreter for it ? Whether this is true or not maybe someone else can provide more information about him, but after the war, he was arrested like thousands of other colaberators, and was given some sort of conviction. As a prisoner part of his prison work was labouring building a football stadium, from which he walked off site one day and eventually made his way to Ireland. The Irish Govt found out who he was and notified the Belgians of his presonce here. The Belgians said thanks and dropped it, they never even bothered considering extradition, presumably because he was a nobody and not the major war criminal as the programme makes out.

As for Cathal O'Shannon not being able to wear his sky blue RAF uniform in Ireland at the time, well to quote an elder gentleman who rang in and who lived at the time " If he was seen going into a pub in Dublin wearing that thing - it would have been ripped off him "

Also Otto Skorzeny, the Waffen SS commander who planned and led the incredibly operation to rescue Mussolini. Indeed such was his reputation that rather than been captured by the Soviets, he tried to give himself up to two Allied patrols but both refused to take his surrender because they didn't believe the real Otto Skorzeny would just give himself up!
But the historian said that Skorzeny After the war, Skorzeny was tried by as a war criminal for having his men disguised in American uniform at the beginning of the Battle Of the Bulge, infiltrating their lines and began changing signposts and creating panic etc. among American troops they encountered. He was acquitted when the British Commander Yeo-Thomas of the Special Operations testified in his defense that he and other Allied commandos had done the same thing. Again omitted by the programme makers.

burnedfaceman

DublinWriter wrote:

I think Dev always had the intention that he wanted Ireland to be 'pure Catholic' state at the back of his mind

sure dev was spanish himself

Aedh Baclamh

So was Folens an actual Nazi member, or does the programme just label him one for the craic?

O'Leprosy

Aedh Baclamh wrote:

So was Folens an actual Nazi member, or does the programme just label him one for the craic?

They labeled him a war criminal for the general sensational claims it made. Folens never denied that he was in the Flemish SS Legion and often openly admitted it. But he claimed to have only worked as an interpreter for it ? Whether this is true or not maybe someone else can provide more information about him, but after the war, he was arrested like thousands of other colaberators, and was given some sort of conviction. As a prisoner part of his prison work was labouring building a football stadium, from which he walked off site one day and eventually made his way to Ireland. The Irish Govt found out who he was and notified the Belgians of his presonce here. The Belgians said thanks and dropped it, they never even bothered considering extradition, presumably because he was a nobody and not the major war criminal as the programme makes out.

PDN

brianthebard wrote:

No the blueshirts were not a threat, they weren't really fascist either, they just took on the appearance of fascist groups.

They were fascist enough for a group of them to go out to Spain and fight under Franco in the Spanish Civil War. Apparently their most notable action was to somehow manage to get bombed by their own side.

PDN

Lazairus wrote:

Look was watching a repeat of Nazis in Ireland on digital 529 last night ,
very interesting ,

but what i want to know, is why Ireland didn't welcome more jewish people in Ireland , and how is it that more Nazis got in ,

Was De Valera A coward??

its my view that he was an utter and complete coward ,

ie the way he abandoned the treaty ,didn't go to London and then became the main opposition force to the Irish treaty

then would not take jewish refugees into Ireland ,before and during the war,
but only took 500 jewish children after the war, clearly people in Fianna Fail
were pro Nazis,Ireland from 1940 to -80's was a seriously F**ked up Country
thats another reason to hate the catholic Church

Would have M. Collins done better to welcome in jewish refugees before during and after the war?

I don't think De Valera's actions during WWII were anything to do with cowardice. He just hated the Brits so much that he wanted to keep in with the Nazis.

Aedh Baclamh

O'Leprosy wrote:

They labeled him a war criminal for the general sensational claims it made. Folens never denied that he was in the Flemish SS Legion and often openly admitted it. But he claimed to have only worked as an interpreter for it ? Whether this is true or not maybe someone else can provide more information about him, but after the war, he was arrested like thousands of other colaberators, and was given some sort of conviction. As a prisoner part of his prison work was labouring building a football stadium, from which he walked off site one day and eventually made his way to Ireland. The Irish Govt found out who he was and notified the Belgians of his presonce here. The Belgians said thanks and dropped it, they never even bothered considering extradition, presumably because he was a nobody and not the major war criminal as the programme makes out.

Ah ok. I was just curious as to whether all SS members were Nazi members by default, so I presume now they were?

Fratton Fred

PDN wrote:

I don't think De Valera's actions during WWII were anything to do with cowardice. He just hated the Brits so much that he wanted to keep in with the Nazis.

I'm not sure it had anyhing to do with the Brits, I just think Dev turned into a master politiian and worked out what was best. I'm not sure if it was what was best for De velera or best for Ireland, but he worked it out all the same.

brianthebard

PDN wrote:

They were fascist enough for a group of them to go out to Spain and fight under Franco in the Spanish Civil War. Apparently their most notable action was to somehow manage to get bombed by their own side.

Lots of people fought against communism, as much or moreso than for Franco. Plus there was for some Irishmen a sense of civil war mkII. There were plenty of groups at the time that looked a little fascist on the outside, but the blueshirts were never as ideologically driven as to be considered fascists.

Lazairus

No that not true , its like saying all members of the SAS are part of the Brits army ,
Quote
"In December, 1940 Heinrich Himmler established the Waffen SS. This new army grew rapidly and within six months grew to over 150,000 men.

During the Second World War the SS Death's Head Units were put in charge of Germany's Concentration Camps. The SS also followed the German Army into the Soviet Union where they had the responsibility of murdering Jews, gypsies, communists and partisans.

By June 1944 the SS had over 800,000 members: Hitler's Body Guard (200,000) Waffen (594,000) and Death Head Units (24,000).

At the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial the Schutzstaffel (SS) was declared a criminal organization and a large number of its leaders were executed.

"

brianthebard

Lazairus are you referring to post #16? If so all german people were members of the Nazi party, the only SS members who may not have been Nazi party members would have been the SS units from other countries.

Aedh Baclamh

What? All german people were Nazi's?

Aedh Baclamh

So Lazairus, what I was initally curious about was whether Folens was an actual Nazi member, or whether he was labelled one just because he fought in the SS. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if this Cathal O'Sheridan guy got it wrong.

brianthebard

Aedh Baclamh wrote:

What? All german people were Nazi's?

Terms and conditions apply...

As for Cathal O'Sheridan, I can't find any info on the interweb about him, did it say what university he was with?

Aedh Baclamh

Might not be the correct name, but he's the RAF guy who presented the programme.

Lazairus

shanlon?

mountainyman

DublinWriter wrote:

You can't ask the question "why weren't Jewish refugees allowed in?" without asking the question "Why did all the existing Jews leave?".

Trite.
Try economic stagnation, mass non jewish emigration a declining pupulation for much of the century.

There are still thousands of Jews in Ireland.

But why should we have taken Jewish refugees why was this Ireland's problem?

MM

DublinWriter

mountainyman wrote:

Trite.
Try economic stagnation, mass non jewish emigration a declining pupulation for much of the century. There are still thousands of Jews in Ireland.

Thousand of Jews left in Ireland eh? Are you a betting man perchance Mountanyman?

I'd bet you that there are only no more than 10 indigeounous Irish Jewish families left. Dublin and Cork both had thriving Jewish communities at the turn of the century, they are all gone now, most emigrated to Manchester.

mountainyman wrote:

But why should we have taken Jewish refugees why was this Ireland's problem?

First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller.

mountainyman

DublinWriter wrote:

Thousand of Jews left in Ireland eh? Are you a betting man perchance Mountanyman?

I'd bet you that there are only no more than 10 indigenous Irish Jewish families left. Dublin and Cork both had thriving Jewish communities at the turn of the century, they are all gone now, most emigrated to Manchester.

I am not a betting man but according to the census there are 2000 Jews in Ireland.

What is an indigenous Jew anyway? Leopold Bloom's father was Hungarian.

MM

DublinWriter

mountainyman wrote:

What is an indigenous Jew anyway?

A Jew born and raised in Ireland.

mountainyman wrote:

Leopold Bloom's father was Hungarian.

Leopold Bloom's father was a fictional character.

FiSe

Lazairus wrote:

No that not true , its like saying all members of the SAS are part of the Brits army ,
Quote
"In December, 1940 Heinrich Himmler established the Waffen SS. This new army grew rapidly and within six months grew to over 150,000 men.

During the Second World War the SS Death's Head Units were put in charge of Germany's Concentration Camps. The SS also followed the German Army into the Soviet Union where they had the responsibility of murdering Jews, gypsies, communists and partisans.

By June 1944 the SS had over 800,000 members: Hitler's Body Guard (200,000) Waffen (594,000) and Death Head Units (24,000).

At the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial the Schutzstaffel (SS) was declared a criminal organization and a large number of its leaders were executed.

"

Check this out:
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1516

mountainyman

DublinWriter wrote:

Leopold Bloom's father was a fictional character.

Trite.
Bloom is an archetypal Irishman as a Jew he must be regarded as indigineous.

The census proves you wrong there are thousands of Jews in Ireland.

MM

Snickers Man

brianthebard wrote:

Terms and conditions apply...

As for Cathal O'Sheridan, I can't find any info on the interweb about him, did it say what university he was with?

His name is O'Shannon. I don't think he's an academic historian, just retired journalist.

Lazairus

FiSe wrote:

Check this out:
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1516

pretty cool ,has all info on ss

Snickers Man

DublinWriter wrote:

Thousand of Jews left in Ireland eh? Are you a betting man perchance Mountanyman?

I'd bet you that there are only no more than 10 indigeounous Irish Jewish families left. Dublin and Cork both had thriving Jewish communities at the turn of the century, they are all gone now, most emigrated to Manchester.

MM may not be but I'll take your bet. There are "thousands" of Jews in Ireland, although that's still a tiny community .

Apart from abominations like the so-called "Limerick Pogrom" of 100 years ago when Jewish families were run out of Limerick for having the temerity to be rather better business people than some of the locals whose trade they hurt and who were easily swayed by the rants of a priestly bigot, the Jewish community in Ireland has been well respected and deservedly so.

Despite its tiny size, it has produced in the 20th century two lord mayors of Dublin, one lord mayor of Cork, four TDs and a president of Israel.

With the return of Alan Shatter to the Dail in the last election the anomaly of the last but one Dail as being the only one NOT to have had at least one Jewish deputy since Fianna Fail ended abstentionism in 1928 and "proper" parliamentary democracy came into operation, has been corrected.

The president of Israel was one Chaim Herzog who was born in Belfast and grew up in Dublin, attending Wesley College. He was first generation Irish (his father was sent to Ireland to be Chief Rabbi) and his family now lives in Israel. His son, Yitzhak Herzog, was frequently on our TV screens as an Israeli government spokesman during the war with Hezbollah last year.

Chaim Herzog's memoirs touch on his time in Ireland and he seemed to have many pleasant memories of a generally tolerant atmosphere towards Jewish people. There were always cat calls levelled at him as a child by the usual uncouth yobs, but he puts the fact that the Jewish community was generally speaking well respected and popular down to the support for the Irish independence struggle of so many prominent Jews.

His father, the Chief Rabbi, was close to De Valera who, Herzog says, greatly valued his counsel. He also points out that De Valera was one of the first national leaders to visit Israel after its independence and came to dinner at the Hezog family household with Bobby Briscoe (one of the Jewish TDs and mayors of Dublin) and Ben Gurion, the Israeli premier.

The experience of the Herzog family in Ireland is probably fairly typical. They came, they stayed for a generation, they moved on. To Israel.

At one stage, there were three Jewish TDs in the Dail. Shatter of Fine Gael, Mervyn Taylor of Labour and Ben Briscoe of Fianna Fail. A "where are they now" item in one newspaper just recently said that all of Mervyn Taylor's children now live outside Ireland. I bet at least some of them are in Israel.

The Irish Jewish community is below the "critical mass" that it needs to survive as a definable community in its own right. Its members will emigrate for reasons of marriage, opportunity and of course the natural pull towards Israel that many Jewish people feel.

The suggestion that they are or were being forcibly moved on as happened under Nazi regimes is scurrilous and incorrect.

Black hole sun

Aedh Baclamh wrote:

So Lazairus, what I was initally curious about was whether Folens was an actual Nazi member, or whether he was labelled one just because he fought in the SS. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if this Cathal O'Sheridan guy got it wrong.

What they claimed was that he was a interpreter for the gestapo in belgium after he got wounded in Russia.

Aedh Baclamh

But the show was about Nazi's. That's why I asked if he was an actual member.