Huge WRC article in Farmers Journal, with map etc

D'Peoples Voice

dodgyme wrote:

However in the west the problem essentially is galway, which is basically like a small version of Dublin on the west coast with regards to traffic. So what is happening is that you make great time from mayo/roscommon/north galway to claregalway and then grind to a halt.

I agree, so why the hell are people in the west supporting the reinstatement of a railway line a good 100kms north of Claregalway.
the logic is like someone saying,
from the Kinsale roundabout inbound to Cork city is busy, so lets build a railway line from Cork city to Castletownbere haven.
It makes no sense!
Instead the lobby group should be putting pressure on the Government to build the Atlantic road Corridor from Sligo to Galway(and beyond to Cork), and a park and ride at claregalway, from where people can get a commuter train into Galway.
this is sustainable financially! Lets not forget the Atlantic rail corridor will be a drain on the government coffers EVERY year from when it is complete.

dodgyme

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

I agree, so why the hell are people in the west supporting the reinstatement of a railway line a good 100kms north of Claregalway..

I think if it goes ahead build a massive P & R the claremorris side of Tuam for traffic from the northern route and a stop a claregalway for suburban galwegians

If this pays for itself, what is the problem. I am not in agreement of the whole line reopening but just from claregalway to the city centre wouldnt be enough.

Schuhart

Navan Junction wrote:

And this is the only heavy rail project listed in the FG manifesto??????????

Page 81

Western Rail Corridor

• Fine Gael will support the reopening of the line from Ennis to Sligo and will re-open the WRC as far as Claremorris, during our first term in Government and instigate a Railway Order to Coolooney.

Why not vote for Mr Tayto? He seems to have as much of a grip on reality.

Schuhart

dodgyme wrote:

If this pays for itself, what is the problem.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that public transport has to pay for itself at the point of consumption. I'm just querying on what basis you are suggesting that your idea pays for itself - other than wishful thinking.

Bear in mind that experience suggests, by and large, if someone hops into a car to get to work they are less likely to stop halfway to their destination and switch to another mode.

I've a feeling we're trying to create any old kind of argument to keep any old bit of rail in the picture. I'd suggest the need to look at this the other way around. If letting people build one-off houses all across south Mayo means that they can only get jobs in Galway to which they must drive, and if there is no obvious public transport solution as they are scattered about South Mayo instead of concentrated in one place, then is the solution not for Galway to start saying to Mayo 'all your one-off houses are drowning us in traffic - stoppit'. Then you could plan for growth both in the city and in sizeable towns already served with rail.

What exactly is wrong with this approach, seeing as how (unlike the WRC) its actually related to the problem?

dowlingm

Re: N17 to Tuam - on the NRA website Tuam bypass is to be 2+1 but Tuam to Galway is tagged as "scheme in planning" - no road plan yet decided.

DerekP11

Schuhart wrote:

According to Westontrack’s sample timetable for Claremorris station, poor old Ann Melia won’t find the WRC much of an improvement. Her complaint is that it takes her one hour and ten minutes to get to Galway from Claremorris. However, the WRC would only provide her with one option – a departure at 7:35am that arrives in Galway at 8:50am – a journey time of one hour and fifteen minutes not including journey time to and from stations at each end.

If arriving in Galway at 8:50am doesn’t suit – or if the solitary evening departure from Galway at 17:25pm (which gets her back to Claremorris at 18:39pm) is similarly unsuitable, she’s still going to be in the car.

Why are we still talking about this nonsense? How does a publication with a very significant circulation in Irish terms waste so much paper without managing to get to the nub of the matter?

The WRC seems to trade entirely on the basis that people in the West will campaign for anything with 'West' in the title, regardless of whether it makes any sense.

This point should really have ended it all. Glad I didn't post it (but secretly wish I had) for fear of getting even more abusive phonecalls from the UK and Ireland about P11s stance on the WRC. Its like a religion.

dermo88

Lets give a few prize quotes from a sensationalist branch line nut. He won't go on IRN since I've attempted to pile boring logic on with a trowel when it comes to rail transport.

Boring and logical. Frequent, boringly repetitive, clean, "plastic" trains are what Ireland needs. The day we get rid of scruffy black and orange medieval torture chambers on rails is the day that those who truly care for the future of rail transport in Ireland.

The WRC is another gasp from a dying breed. The moment all the 071's are repainted and the last bit Black and Orange is down at Hammond Lane, the 141's head off for the Gillette factory is the moment that Irish Railways look to the future. The futures bright, but its not black and orange.

I got private messaged.

Heres the quotes, and my responses. I kept it anonymous, but you'll guess who it is.

"Why are you so anti-railway?

Your defence of trucks/lorries is invalid. The costs of maintaining roadways far exceeds that of railways; and the bare fact that there are several trucks heading from a single origin to a single destination on Ireland's roadways bespeaks the canard about trucking being more "efficient" than rail. The USA has been down that road (so to speak) for fifty years. It's killing the country"

I am not anti railway, and I have plenty of threads and postings on IRN to prove that.

Railfreight needs volumes to be effective. America has that, Europe has that. Heavy flows of Minerals, containers, etc, all going by rail. The 201's were purchased and specced to haul 1,500 tonne freight trains up Rathpeacon, which is a task they (sadly) never did. There is no comparison between America and Ireland, so the argument comparing a continent to a small island on the edge of Europe does not exist.

Your inordinate focus on the WRC is also invalid and a distraction from other more important issues. Take away the WRC's funding, and you wouldn't even get one-eighth of that duplicate Interconnector built, nor even any of the former MGWR corridor to/from Navan. If you really want the WRC to go away, then ignore it. Either that, or take a page from their book, since their version of lobbying seems to work whereas P11's doesn't (you'll never get anywhere
by giving fellatio to the government).


I am not focusing on the WRC. I focus on many other areas, and I made the effort of searching threads going back six years to back up my case. Other posters found them of interest, and it took a great deal of effort to do that.

As regards immaturity, it takes two hands to clap, and for you to refer to all my postings with terms such as "pollute" and "choler" is a poor reflection of your obvious intelligence.

Now, why does he want me to ignore the WRC. I support half of it, I support the Southern half, so I half support the WRC. But I will continue to ensure that whenever this topic rises from the dead that I throw some words in to tackle it.

I see another thread on Galway Light Rail......and its pure despair when I see this.

Transport21 Fan

dermo88 wrote:

(you'll never get anywhere
by giving fellatio to the government).

Oh, I know now who sent you this message is. I have emails and letters from the same deeply unwell man. It's very sad in many ways.

I would just ignore him dermo, as you are really just wrestling with the demons which haunt him and have driven him to this state.

dermo88

I'd be almost scared to go on a railtour with him on board. Can you forward on the e-mails from this character, after all, I could do with the entertainment.. There might be an accident if I met.

Its not just him. Its the entire branch line breed. They are watching their expensive, 1-1 scale taxpayer funded playground disappear, and they are lamenting its demise. Never mind, they probably look at us....sneeringly, pitying us, and say.

"They only want plastic trains"

And I smile, because its the future. Bring it on.

Now, after reading of the reopening of Broadstone, heres a new one that caught my eye.

This woke me up. This is what we should be looking at. Not that lot salivating over Athenry to Collooney.

http://www.darganproject.com

We can't be traipsing around from board to board supressing the WRC nonsense. The only way......just keep a link to the old threads, copy and paste the old stuff you've written. They'll soon get tired and go away.

Thank God the Internet did not exist when the Diesels came. We'd be fcked.

Heres how truly mad they are. They want the new trains (22000's) to FAIL. Thats how much they care for the future of the railways.

Meanwhile.....I saw Jeremy Clarkson on Youtube cutting up a LADA...in typical top gear style. Any chance we could bring him over to stage a crash test.....involving 141's, Cravens or Mark 2d's.....

I can only imagine the howls of horror.....from IRN!!!!

dermo88

Just keep this picture for any repeat of the WRC, and other assorted Brian Guckian...famous independent Transport consultant....Playboy magazine rail porn from you-know-who....and anything else outside the four major urban centres thats not possible or viable.



And repeat.

"Have you been studying that diagram I drew for you?"
"Remember, the cows appear small, because they are far away"

I just get entertainment from playing with them.....its too much fun....maybe I'm sick as well.

DerekP11

Either that, or take a page from their book, since their version of lobbying seems to work whereas P11's doesn't (you'll never get anywhere
by giving fellatio to the government).

Ha ha! I nearly pissed myself laughing at that one. More unsubstanciated, bitter, muck.

Anyway Dermo, the same person that you speak of, also speaks in a similar manner about another topic he considers himself knowledgeable on. The link is below. You will notice that the "mindset" is very similar. I guess he just thinks in that kind of way. Poor soul.

http://www.filmmakersnetwork.ie/forums/showthread.php?t=831

Read the extract from his article. It won't take you long to notice the theme of "social justice".

dermo88

Social justice.

Most people I see using that as an excuse have never known hunger, cold, or worry about where the next cent comes from. It makes me misty eyed and nostalgic to see that, its so sweet. Just reminds me of my friends during a strike singing "we'll keep the red flag flying", and some 12-13 years later, if they saw a red flag over the GPO, they'd be on the first plane out.

It sounds just like me when I was an 18 year old student earning buttons to pay for college and beer. I must have been somewhere to the left of Lenin.

Once upon a time, there was a kid, who said "we need railways everywhere, we need to rebuild Donegal, we should have more trains, we should have cheaper alcohol and cigarettes, we should have free travel for teenagers, we should have free books, we should have subsidised accomodation, give me, I am entitled, it should be our right"

And eventually, real life kicked in, and I got around a bit through work.

What scares me is finding a country that has squandered its wealth, which is what happened in the lost decade.

"Capitalism is the exploitation of one man by another, Socialism is the exact opposite" (John Maynard Keynes)

popebenny16

Well, to be fair to the chap referenced by dermo up above it must be pointed out that thus far i have not yet exercised fellatio on any government member.

I am waiting form a technical report from marco on the best method to use (i prefer using champagne and/or a cadbury creme egg) and Derek is drafting a press release. I may be readying a release of my own.

Oy vey, another WRC thread heads south.

time to bring on the cats i think.

Transport21 Fan

dermo88 wrote:

Social justice.

Most people I see using that as an excuse have never known hunger, cold, or worry about where the next cent comes from. It makes me misty eyed and nostalgic to see that, its so sweet.

They also need to know that there are people whom they deem to be below them so they can feel superior and pretend they care about them.

You see a lot of this carry on with the whole Man Made Global Warming cult - it appeals to them kind of affluent 'socialists' who are romantic about poor people remaining "uncomplicated and rustic" and not have their culture ruined...:rolleyes: It's just really the old fashioned snobbery thing masquerading as superficial compassion and empathy.

I won an art competition in Ballymun when I was about 10 and the judges were a couple of final year students from the College of Art and Design and they were to come up and give me the award while the photo was taken for the Northside People. Anyways, they were really late and the photographer finally found them in the Garda station asking to be escorted to the event as they were terrified of walking though the flats. They were driven over to the hall and gave me the prize and then begged the driven out of Ballymun by the photographer so they would not have to wait for a bus. There were like a couple of upper-middle class hippies from Foxrock. They were absolutely terrified of the place - like they had landed on another planet and could not wait to get out back into their own world.

About 10 years later I am walking down Grafton Street and there is one the same art students now a radical with a megaphone holding up a Socialists Workers banner proclaiming how in Ireland we need to overthrow the state. In his "loike, sooooooooo, loike sooooooooo" accent.

That's what made Rik Mayhall's character Rik 'The People's Poet' in the Young One's so perfect. It was right on the money.

THUNDERDOME HERE WE COME!

popebenny16

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I won an art competition in Ballymun when I was about 10 and the judges were a couple of final year students from the College of Art and Design and they were to come up and give me the award while the photo was taken for the Northside People.

That didnt happen and you know it.

Aha!!! Exposed as the fraud i always knew you were. Feck off back to Castleknock you spanner.

dodgyme

Schuhart wrote:

Bear in mind that experience suggests, by and large, if someone hops into a car to get to work they are less likely to stop halfway to their destination and switch to another mode.

well I dont know what experience you have but my experience is the opposite. People will stop half way if it is attractive. Using your 'experience' all those people who park at clonsilla in the morning should not be doing so but should continue on to there destination. Well that is not the case and this is what creates the demand for the train and it would be the case if part of the line opened as access to Galway, the same way as Clonsilla give access to the City centre or driving to heuston to get the luas into town to avoid the hassle of congestion. People break journeys up all the time because it can and is attractive to do so.

Schuhart

dodgyme wrote:

Using your 'experience' all those people who park at clonsilla in the morning should not be doing so but should continue on to there destination. Well that is not the case and this is what creates the demand for the train

You'll understand, I'm not saying that many people don't do this kind of thing. What I'm saying is someone who sits into their car in the morning is less likely to get out of it to get on the train. What creates demand for the train is people living along the route that can walk to the station and walk to their place of work at the far end.

I'm sure that the DTO produced surveys that showed the further out a commuter is the more likely they are to commute by car - its only common sense, really.

popebenny16

that was such a good point i'd say it three times, cinderella style.

dowlingm

I'm sure that the DTO produced surveys that showed the further out a commuter is the more likely they are to commute by car - its only common sense, really.

that's because public transport tends to drop in frequency over longer distances. For example - a given location 10km from an urban centre might gets served every 10 minutes, 20km every half hour, 40km every hour and 80km+ every 90min-3hrs because the catchment is lower [except in metropolitan areas with bidirectional catchments like the Glasgow-Edinburgh corridor]. Every two hours is one thing for a leisure traveller but for a commuter or business traveller the consequences of missing a train would be disastrous.

Transport21 Fan

Did anybody see the Greens party political broadcast this evening?

One of the kids says "when I grow up I want to be able to take a train from Galway to Cork" - but only the other day the Green Party themselves said that the WRC goes from Sligo to Tralee. I just can't keep track anymore. As this stage I think the Green's rail policy involves a handful of Hornby 00 gauge tracks which they toss on to a map of Ireland with Leinster cut-off it and then announce "right, that's our rail policy today."

That Green Party broadcast was really cornball and "sooooooooo inclusive loike" - prue New Labour spin rubbish which went out about 8 years ago when people saw it for what it was.

The whole "The Children, Who Thinks of the Children!!!!!" approach was really tacky. For a party which claims to be more Berlin than Boston that ad was like something you see on US TV. Shamelessly schmaltzy. I think the Monty Burns and Side Show Bob political campaign broadcasts were more believable.

I am voting for the PDs because I am evil.

DerekP11

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I am voting for the PDs because I am evil.

Im using my voting slip to roll a decent black moroccan. If biffo can then I can. Makes the pain go away. (apparently):cool:

dermo88

I've never slept with a decent black moroccan. The last one was a bit aggressive, I could hardly walk for a week.

"Rolling a decent black moroccan"

Thats a new dimension on safe sex to me. I'll try anything once, but thats pushing it!

Oh wait......you mean the ould "mary jane", right?

corktina

DerekP11 wrote:

Im using my voting slip to roll a decent black moroccan. If biffo can then I can. Makes the pain go away. (apparently):cool:

some respect please for a Minister of this State....Capital B in Biffo.....:rolleyes:

spacetweek

dermo88 wrote:

This woke me up. This is what we should be looking at. Not that lot salivating over Athenry to Collooney.

http://www.darganproject.com

is it just me or is that site impossible to navigate?

Zoney

Transport21 Fan wrote:

One of the kids says "when I grow up I want to be able to take a train from Galway to Cork" - but only the other day the Green Party themselves said that the WRC goes from Sligo to Tralee. I just can't keep track anymore. As this stage I think the Green's rail policy involves a handful of Hornby 00 gauge tracks which they toss on to a map of Ireland with Leinster cut-off it and then announce "right, that's our rail policy today."

Look at the bright side. They aren't the ones whose party leader blithely answered in the Six-One news that yes he intended to spend at least 5 billion euros reprivatising Eircom, Aer Lingus and Irish Ferries.

Ste.phen

spacetweek wrote:

is it just me or is that site impossible to navigate?

Nope, it's not just you.

Turn off stylesheets and it looks just fine.

dermo88

Don't worry zoney. You can always bang pots in the street after they've rebuilt the WRC, and the property market has gone down the toilet. Thats why railways should go where most of the people live, so that the market is shielded from a major property shock (I wrote a bit on this earlier). Its also why specific plans and targets should be made for our major cities, so that we are prepared to implement improvements when the time comes.

I think you meant to say "nationalised". In any case, Sinn Fein are merely a protest vote for a bunch of young amateur revolutionaries. The Green party are a protest vote for a bunch of middle aged amateur revolutionaries. A vote for Fianna Fail is a vote for "More Carry on", a vote for Fine Gael is a vote for "Carry on some more", and a vote for Labour is a vote for "Carry me, as long as I am in a semi-state".

Navan Junction

Zoney wrote:

I do not think it unreasonable that say Ennis-Athenry is happening now while Navan waits..

And that position is not unreasonable compared to the FG position of reopening all of the WRC ahead of Navan.

However, I would respectfully suggest that 50% of the cost should be raised locally, as is expected for Navan.

That would not be unreasonable either. It is interesting that you are acknowleging that Navan is waiting whilst the WRC goes ahead though

Zoney

Navan Junction wrote:

And that position is not unreasonable compared to the FG position of reopening all of the WRC ahead of Navan.

However, I would respectfully suggest that 50% of the cost should be raised locally, as is expected for Navan.

That would not be unreasonable either. It is interesting that you are acknowleging that Navan is waiting whilst the WRC goes ahead though

Yes, well, if we had effective politicians the cost and decision-making issues with regard to Navan would be solved and it would be going ahead now *as well*. My point was more that it doesn't make sense to hold back the simpler jobs just because of the far larger ones. It's not like we have had a lack of money to justify that - we aren't in the 1980s where only an important handful of projects could proceed (although of course the prioritising back then seems to have been rather strange nevertheless).

Navan should not have to raise 50% locally either. Such arrangements just result in poorer regions being left to rot, which is bad for the country as a whole, not just that region. Unfortunately we have people in this country who'd see it as that practically all projects should be 100% locally funded. These people even have their own party... for now. Really, if you're going to go such a route, why bother with a cohesive state at all?

Navan Junction

Zoney wrote:

Really, if you're going to go such a route, why bother with a cohesive state at all?

Which is what bugs me most. I've grown really annoyed with everything from Ulster to Munster being called the "Greater Dublin Region" as if a Luas in Dundrum should be enough transport infrastructure do everyone one in a geographic area that stretches from Wexford to Cavan.

I think if people living in the East (and north as well as Sth) are good enough to acknowlege that "the West" needs investment and development at disproportionate level to the East and other parts of the country, that maybe those living in the West should similarly recognise there are parts of "Greater Dublin Area" and Cork etc that are also in need.

Casting around for a comparison, I just thought of substituting "provision of rail services" with "provision of health services"..

If Navan had no hospital, would it be fair to build a second hospital in Ennis, Athenty, Claremorris and Sligo before even considering building one in Navan?

Or to then build all of the hospitals in those towns free of charge, but to make the people in Navan pay half of theirs even though they are forced to wait until last to get theirs?

Or to push the analgy even further, to still come to those decisions despite Navan having a much greater number of 'sick' people than those towns?

And at the risk of really pushing the boat out (!), finding out that those hospitals being built won't really cure the ills of folk of those towns being fast-tracked?

I'm not really knocking Ennis-Athenry Zoney, but the ingredients of the whole transport saga on this island just annoy the hell out of me.

Particularly when there is a complete lack of political leadership to tackle the problems - and when the politicians do show an interest it is to make the mess even worse