Huge WRC article in Farmers Journal, with map etc

Navan Junction

West on track
By Maria Moynihan, Farmers Journal 5th May 2007.

Trains running from Limerick to Athenry at the end of 2008, commuter services from Tuam to Galway by 2011 and the re-opening of the line to Claremorris by 2014: the Western Rail Corridor is well on track. But what about Sligo? Maria Moynihan reports.

When Ann Melia moved from Dublin to Claremorris, Co Mayo, in 1999, she hoped to find a better quality of life in rural Ireland. However, with a gruelling 88-mile daily drive to work in Galway City, the mother of two says "the jury is out". And all because of the lack of a commuter rail service in the west.

"When you travel 440 miles a week, there isn't much left of you," she explained. "In 1999, I'd leave Claremorris at 7.30am and be in Galway for 8.20am. My journey now takes me one hour and 10 minutes. I leave the house at 6.30am and I'm now waking up at 5.15am every morning. Am I going to have to get up at 4.15am next? It's absurd."

Ms Melia's story is representative of what many people in the west are experiencing. A local survey shows that commuters from Claremorris to Galway spend the equivalent 11 working weeks in their car annually.

However, such nightmare car journeys are set to be a thing of the past with the phased re-opening of the Western Rail Corridor from 2008, according to a recent conference organised in Claremorris by West on Track in association with the Western Development Commission.

The Western Rail Corridor
"Western Rail Corridor: Promoting Regional Balance" brought interests and experts from the business, tourism, environmental and community sectors together to examine the economic and social benefits of re-opening train services between Limerick and Sligo on a route known as the Western Rail Corridor.

Trains on the corridor have been closed for over 30 years; the Claremorris-Collooney line closed to passengers in 1963; while services between Limerick and Claremorris ceased in 1976. This has left the west of Ireland without a regional rail service. For example, to take a train from Limerick to Galway or Galway to Sligo, one would have to travel via Dublin.

However, community effort in the intervening decades succeeded in preserving the old line, and in 2003 a campaign entitled West on Track was established in over 30 cities and towns throughout the West of Ireland to lobby for the re-opening of the Western Rail Corridor.

Transport 21
Their efforts paid off. In November 2005, the Government committed to re-opening the Western Rail Corridor in its Transport 21 policy.

According to the document, there was to be a phased re-opening of the Ennis-to-Claremorris section and the upgrade of the Athenry-to-Galway line for commuter services,thus linking the cities of Limerick and Galway with an onward connection to Claremorris on the Dublin-Westport line.

Transport 21 also specified that the line from Claremorris to Collooney was also to be preserved. Timelines included Athenry to Ennis (2008), Galway to Athenry commuter services (2009), Athenry to Tuam (2011) and Tuam to Claremorris (2014).

Project Progress
But what is happening one year on? According to Iarnród Éireann CEO Dick Fearn, significant progress has been made towards achieving the deadlines of Transport 21, with services starting as early as next year.

Addressing the conference, Mr Fearn explained that the Ennis-Athenry line - with stations at Sixmilebridge, Gort, Ardrahan, Craughwell and Oranmore - will be running by December 2008, with up to seven services daily in each direction. This line will link the cities of Galway and Limerick by rail, with a just less than two-hour end-to-end journey time as the company works on reducing the number of level crossings on the track, which currently stand every quarter of a mile.

Mr Fearn also outlined the development of phase two of the Western Rail Corridor, which will link Athenry to Tuam by 2011. Current projections estimate a 40-minute train journey from Tuam to Galway City, which Iarnród Éireann believes will be attractive to commuters if it's a reliable, peak service. There will also be interval off-peak services timetabled to correspond with connections at Athenry to and from Dublin to create "a sensible, integrated, railway operation".

The Tuam-to-Claremorris line is scheduled for completion at 2013/14, but Mr Fearn said technical specifications, speed and service levels are still in development. However, he emphasised that he and his colleagues are committed to making the Western Rail Corridor, "a crucial part of the Iarnród Éireann modern rail network", with diesel rolling stock, continuous welded rail and signalling controlled from Connolly Station, Dublin.

Bringing The Railway To Sligo
But while such progress is a major step forward towards the final goal, for commuters like Ann Melia, the 2014 deadline is seven years too late. There is also dissatisfaction on the ground over the lack of timescale from the Government for the re-opening of the Claremorris-Sligo line.

With 2.5 million passenger journeys between Sligo and Claremorris annually, "you don't have to be a genius to see that you need a rail service," declared Colmán Ó Raghallaigh, West on Track, at the conference.

However, while Minister for Community, Gaeltacht and Rural Affairs, Eamon Ó Cuív - who delivered the keynote address after Transport Minister Martin Cullen had to pull out of the event - stated that the Government was committed to opening the line in its entirety, he could not give a deadline for the Sligo service.

"I would like here to reiterate that commitment made by my colleague Martin Cullen at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis that we're committed to this railway line from Sligo to Limerick," Minister Ó Cuív told the conference.

"Now the big debate here today is timescale, and of course you're always in [trouble] in politics with timescales. I have to say, my own general reaction to timescales is as soon as possible and I try to create the possibility that possible is soon."

Minister Ó Cuív stressed that €5 million Clár funding had been allocated to the restoration of the Claremorris-Sligo line, with almost 50 miles of the corridor cleared in the last six months and the commencement of site works such as drainage and signage in May. He announced that his department will be working to provide further Clár funding to restore the line and so speed up the process of getting train services back on track.

"What I'm now asking my department to do is to enter discussions with Iarnród Eireann and the Department of Transport in the relation of the next phase of Clár funding to be spent in the 2008/'09 period," he stated. "I believe there are further works that we can do usefully with the modest funding that my department can provide to expedite and deal with issues well in advance of the section line in the Clár area, and once we've finished these discussions, we'll make an announcement."

Minister Ó Cuív stressed that other factors would drive the Western Rail Corridor forward, such as decentralisation, continued support for Shannon and Ireland West (Knock) airports, local authorities planning for priority settlement in towns along the line and the growing population of Connaught.

And he signed off by stating that if the community continues to work together, they will get their railway.

"I think, from where we were two years ago and where we are today, we've made a major step," he said. "Rather than get involved in one-line promises, what I think we have to do is work to comprehensive policies that make it an inevitability, and an inevitability that makes it a reality in the shorter term rather than the longer term."

Effect On The West
Chief Executive of Western Development Commission Gillian Buckley welcomed Minister Ó Cuív's pledge of further Clár funding. However, she reiterated the importance of a commitment to re-opening the line to Sligo.

"The WDC strongly advocates the re-introduction of services as far as Sligo, which is experiencing significant growth, and will be the only gateway town whose rail link to other gateways is via Dublin," she explained.

"Opening the line will also connect 14 medium and smaller-sized towns on a North-South transport corridor, generating additional demand and employment growth, attracting new enterprises and growing tourism."

Ms Buckley said that while the rest of the country had prospered in recent years, the West had been left behind. The Western Development Commission and West on Track see the Western Rail Corridor as a key factor in addressing the regional imbalance.

"Prosperity and development has improved in the west over the last decade, along with everywhere else in the country, but I think the gap has actually widened rather than narrowed. We would like to see more focus on narrowing that gap and bringing the west of Ireland up to the National standard," she explained.

"Access is critical, both of people and goods. Public transport is critical to deliver social and economic benefits. Railway is a key driver of economic growth. If you think about the 19th Century, the railway brought jobs to areas and we see the Western Rail Corridor delivering that for the west of Ireland in the 21st century."

[Huge print of railway map etc from Farmers Journal at the bottom of the article on the site - 10mb size]

Navan Junction

Mayo Commuter wrote:

...with a gruelling 88-mile daily drive to work in Galway City...."In 1999, I'd leave Claremorris at 7.30am and be in Galway for 8.20am. My journey now takes me one hour and 10 minutes.....It's absurd."

I left Navan at 6.40 this morning and got to work at 9.15 in Dublin City.

2hrs 35 minutes for 30 miles.

My heart bleeds for 1hr 10 minutes for 44 miles.

Schuhart

Navan Junction wrote:

However, with a gruelling 88-mile daily drive to work in Galway City, the mother of two says "the jury is out". And all because of the lack of a commuter rail service in the west.

But is building your life around an 88 mile not a complete nonsense? Its like 'I'm moved from Dublin to Claremorris to get a cheaper and bigger house and now I find I have to travel 88 miles for work'. Well, duh.

The solution, surely, is planning for more homes in cities so that people don't need to commute. The demand for a commuter rail service really just illustrates how if people move to a rural area with the expectation that an urban lifestyle will be available to them, the consequence is demands that impose unreasonable costs on the rest of the community.

Navan Junction

From those figures, the average speed on the Claremorris - Galway trip is about 40mph.. That's not bad especially if there is city driving thrown in

I also find the idea of railway being needed to guarantee commercial development as daft.

If that were the case then Kingscourt, Nobber, Wilkinstown and indeed Navan would be commercial hubs, which they are not even though they all have (or did have until recently) rail services.

If you want economic development, build a good road.

If you want to move thousands of passengers at a time and reduce road traffic, build a railway.

loyatemu

I doubt her journey time on the WRC will be much quicker. She'll definitely be able to get a seat though.

dodgyme

Navan Junction wrote:

I left Navan at 6.40 this morning and got to work at 9.15 in Dublin City.

2hrs 35 minutes for 30 miles.

My heart bleeds for 1hr 10 minutes for 44 miles.

Ok lads it is not a competition on how screwed we all are,but making the comparison is valid. My suggestion would be to have a decent park and ride the claremorris side of tuam (where the new road is good) so the folks from north galway and part of county mayo/Roscommon could drive to this and catch a commuter train to galway city. The bus services in galway should complement this somwhat. e.g regular buses out towards ballybane/salthill/newcastle when the trains arrive. This would mean say, 15 min drive from knock/claremorris, catch a train which takes say 30mins to galway city. After this is up and proven, extend the line to sligo if needed

Now on the navan line there is no debate, just build the f*cking thing now. No more talk just build it, right now, put the f8cking election off for a year and give the parties donkey jackets and a lump hammer and dump them in dunboyne.

dowlingm

dodgyme - the issue is that the Western Development Commission has ran ads in the past telling people you can live in the sticks and work in the cities but all of a sudden are reversing course and saying "actually there are traffic jams here too" in order to stay on side with the WRC people. For instance Woodlawn and Attymon have railway stations but no development because there are no decent roads to round out the transport system, and the new N6 won't go through them. Those villages should be bustling dormitory towns.

If the West can't maximise the infrastructure they have, they have to understand the scepticism when they ask for more.

OTK

Eamon Ó Cuív is a funny chap. He has been the most prominent and influential advocate that the state should encourage people to live in dispersed settlement patterns that by their nature can never support public transport and he then suggests providing public transport anyway even if nobody will use it.

Navan Junction

OTK wrote:

Eamon Ó Cuív is a funny chap.

He's not at all - he's just Minister for the West

Navan Junction

dowlingm wrote:

dodgyme - the issue is that the Western Development Commission has ran ads in the past telling people you can live in the sticks and work in the cities but all of a sudden are reversing course and saying "actually there are traffic jams here too" in order to stay on side with the WRC people.

The Western Development Commission was given a budget and told to go forth and develop the West.

The only thing they seem to campaign on is the WRC (apart from the Look West campaign), which suggests that they are a bit lost for winnable projects.

Instead of lobbying for new business start-ups or private investment, they seem to have focused on just lobbying the government. Roads are being delivered so what else could they turn to? Railways.

For the Western Development Commission, there is an urgent need to be seen to be delivering for the West - and what better way than to get wins than to lobby the Government, particularly if you are failing with the private sector.

dodgyme

dowlingm wrote:

dodgyme - the issue is that the Western Development Commission has ran ads in the past telling people you can live in the sticks and work in the cities .

No I dont think that was what the ads were saying. they were promoting the west as an alternative to the congestion of Dublin, which is true. The west is not as congested as Dublin. There was nothing in the ads about living in the "sticks" as you put it and working in the City. If you work in Knock and live in claremorris there very little congestion. That is the point they were making.

dowlingm wrote:

but all of a sudden are reversing course and saying "actually there are traffic jams here too" in order to stay on side with the WRC people.

Okay that is your take on it. the WDC is there to try and develop the west so that is there aim. They will do what is needed to fill this role. However in the west the problem essentially is galway, which is basically like a small version of Dublin on the west coast with regards to traffic. So what is happening is that you make great time from mayo/roscommon/north galway to claregalway and then grind to a halt. That is why a train is needed into galway and I think is should be park and ride based outside tuam and a commuter train there as a focal for all the cars that would eventually meet at claregalway.

dowlingm wrote:

For instance Woodlawn and Attymon have railway stations but no development because there are no decent roads to round out the transport system, and the new N6 won't go through them. Those villages should be bustling dormitory towns.
.

correct

dowlingm wrote:

If the West can't maximise the infrastructure they have, they have to understand the scepticism when they ask for more.

ok the west is part of ireland just so you know:eek: , and "they" are not asking for more, they are asking for a reinstatement, to some degree of what was there already. I remember lines on these tracks and I am not that old. Also people in the west are fully behind the navan line, pity the complement is not returned. The reason it is not returned is that people stuck outside clonee are not in the traffic in claregalway every morning so dont care about the latter, whereas people stuck in claregalway may see themselves as part of the bigger problem. Its a kinda narrowmindedness of a sort which city dwellers have. Taking only one view. I agree navan line is the biggest priority but the west being a more attractive alt for some people is good for regional balance so dont knock it.

Navan Junction

dodgyme wrote:

No I dont think that was what the ads were saying..

From Look West.ie

http://www.lookwest.ie/index.php/less-time-in-the-car.php

Less Time in the Car — More Quality Time for You
It's often said that time is our most precious possession. So why waste it staring at the bumper of the car in front?

75% of people in the West spend 30 minutes or less getting to work
Only 1 in 20 spend more than an hour
Average commute time is about 20 minutes
1 in 7 people in the Dublin area have to travel for over an hour to get to work each day
In the West of Ireland you can actually move — rather than sit in traffic — for most of your trip to work. Or, if you want, you can afford to live close enough to walk or cycle.

So if you move West the only thing to worry about is what to do with all that extra time! Why don't you check out West Leisure for a few ideas?

For a better quality of life, move west!

Useful Links

dodgyme

Navan Junction wrote:

Roads are being delivered so what else could they turn to? Railways..

Not too true - pick up a copy of the last 2 AA seaonal magazines, the west is the only region where there is no major "new" plans for road development.

Also if you know the west atall you would realise that people were asking for the return of the trains as far back as the early 80's not too many years after they stopped really. but the 80's wasnt a good time to ask for anything. Finally all the towns along the rail road did develop economically thanks to rail - that is why people think economic development and the railways in the west but in the modern world I would agree with the earlier point that rail is for moving people and road to help economic dev.

Navan Junction wrote:

For the Western Development Commission, there is an urgent need to be seen to be delivering for the West - and what better way than to get wins than to lobby the Government, particularly if you are failing with the private sector.

correct

dodgyme

Navan Junction wrote:

From Look West.ie

http://www.lookwest.ie/index.php/less-time-in-the-car.php

Less Time in the Car — More Quality Time for You
It's often said that time is our most precious possession. So why waste it staring at the bumper of the car in front?

75% of people in the West spend 30 minutes or less getting to work
Only 1 in 20 spend more than an hour
Average commute time is about 20 minutes
1 in 7 people in the Dublin area have to travel for over an hour to get to work each day
In the West of Ireland you can actually move — rather than sit in traffic — for most of your trip to work. Or, if you want, you can afford to live close enough to walk or cycle.

So if you move West the only thing to worry about is what to do with all that extra time! Why don't you check out West Leisure for a few ideas?

For a better quality of life, move west!

Useful Links

thanks you are saying my reply to counter the misleading point that "Western Development Commission has ran ads in the past telling people you can live in the sticks and work in the cities ." is correct then. Thanks for backing me up there, because they didnt run ads telling people to work in cities did they? no - they didnt

Schuhart

OTK wrote:

Eamon Ó Cuív is a funny chap. He has been the most prominent and influential advocate that the state should encourage people to live in dispersed settlement patterns that by their nature can never support public transport and he then suggests providing public transport anyway even if nobody will use it.

Its a mindset that's hard to fathom, but seems impossible to shake.

dodgyme wrote:

they didnt run ads telling people to work in cities did they?

Where else did they think they'd end up working? The WDC always goes for the soft option, and only sees its job as going 'ra ra ra' for anything vaguely connected to the West without any thought for whether it does any good.

Navan Junction

We have the sticks up here too, and we have people living in them too.

Is there any upgrade works planned for the N17?

dodgyme wrote:

Also people in the west are fully behind the navan line, pity the complement is not returned

Limerick commuter rail - great. Galway commuter rail - great. Sligo commuter rail - great.

But much of the WRC is a joke. And the joke is on the gob****es in Meath and Cavan that will be paying M3 tolls, €225m in levies towards the Navan line (put to use whenever the project starts after the WRC) and then through income tax for a land-use strategy free, levy-free low patronage project. If the project was likely to revolutionise the west I'd back it to the hilt, but it won't.

In this day and age, on this island railways should be about delivering mass transit where it is needed. Freight counts for nothing - Meath already has the only significant freight flow in the country and that is irrelvan. Freight-rich and mass transit potential just does not come into it with the WRC.

Call it ignorance or whatever you like - the Fine Gael dumping of every other railway project in the country in their manifesto to faciliate 5 year reinstatement of Ennis to Claremorris says it all.

Delivery of the WRC in such a fashion has nothing to do with balanced regional development or need - it's about politics, and blatant electioneering.

The same politics that are ditching reinstatement of the Meath link despite the crying need for it.

Enda Kenny showed his support of the Navan project by displaying complete ignorance as to the state of traffic in the county two weeks ago - and that says it all.

dodgyme wrote:

the west being a more attractive alt for some people is good for regional balance so dont knock it.

There is plenty of countryside and there are plenty of lakes etc over this neck of the woods. Plenty of peaceful places too - the West does not have a monopoly on that. But why should people be forced to migrate to the West for a decent quality of life?

Either way, ask yourself an honest question - is the WRC a need or a want? It's a want.

And I back commuter rail for every city through-out country - but if you are going to prioritise the provision of infrastructure, don't do it based on political expediency. Do it based on need.

dowlingm

dodgyme - the point I'm making is that the WDC basically said come east of the Shannon and all will be well. People have taken them up on the offer and are finding the infrastructure is inadequate and that it will be difficult to make it so - even with financial investment because of the dispersed pattern of settlement, one off housing etc.

WDC should have developed the Ballinasloe-Dublin corridor in conjunction with those local authorities to make that phase one of the de facto hinterland for Galway. Once development had intensified the towns in between like Athenry and Oranmore etc., barred one off development and improvements had been made to the railway line (double tracking/loops/auto level crossings) with development charge funding it would be completely appropriate to employ a similar strategy in the northern and southern approaches. All this is perfectly feasible and would have gotten little resistance from IE given that the line is in service anyway.

Given the speed at which development has progressed in the last 10 years it is very doubtful that this would have taken an inordinate amount of time to accomplish. The time to introduce the other lines to a similar development strategy would have been minimal if planning for the latter had been concurrent with the rollout of the former, including increase of line track speeds to decent commuting levels (110km/h).

The problem with the WRC is that Galway isn't the focus of the lines, Athenry is, and that fact adds a substantial premium to train journey lengths and therefore durations. The ultimate line speed on the reopened line is yet to be seen but it is likely to be nearer 80 than 110km/h and will have stops at areas which are largely undeveloped but are being proposed because they were stops back in the day (Ardrahan, for instance).

The local authorities are also showing signs of wanting everything done for them, such as with the Mayolink train service which Mayo CC is apparently doing little to support. Why should they? Because local council investment is closer to the people who use it and an endorsement that it is a preferable way to travel.

Chris_533976

88 miles per day to work, after voluntarily moving there??

Stupid.

Transport21 Fan

Chris_533976 wrote:

88 miles per day to work, after voluntarily moving there??

Stupid.

You see this a lot here in the West. Some very starry-eyed, but well-intentioned young couples with kids from Dublin moving over here with some idea of rural bliss, a huge house and a job and not having to worry about the kids being in danger. Life will be more simple and less complicated.

except...the isolated rural area provides no friends for their kids to play with, so they sit indoors all day playing x-box until they are old enough to drive...which they have to do constantly as it's the only way to socialise and their life expectancy drops massively on rural roads as a result...parents have to get up very early in the morning to drive the kids 10 miles to school before they go to work...the huge house on the hill costs a fortune to heat in winter because the farmer who built it barely insulated it, and it's lashed constantly by the winds as the farmer/developer cut all the trees and hedges around it so the massive garden looks impressive from the road/agents photo...the job is 30 miles away and suddenly the lower costs they paid for the house in Mayo is now about the same in real terms as if they bought one close to a city were their utility and transport bills would be lower.

The difference is in/near the city/town they would be able to get to the cinema and pubs without having to worry about being slaughtered by the farmer driving home pissed out of his head from the pub. But they are too tired to go out anyways after spending all day cutting the 2 acres of lawn which needs cutting every weekend from all the constant driving rain.

They live like this for about 3 years and then go back to Dublin. I have seen it loads of times.

The news also broke this week that 1 out of every 3 houses in Mayo is currently empty. But ya know, if a train runs from Sligo to Limerick a few times a day all these problems will be solved...

Why do farmers suddenly need the WRC all of a sudden then?

As they all work beside their homes, right?...the real reason is they are the main property developers in rural areas and the sales of houses in rural Mayo has collasped since last Christmas. There are already farmers now demanding the Government (you and I) buy these empty properties for social housing - at a profit to the farmer's of course.

Expect talk about taxpayers buying empty houses in rural Mayo in the next few years...for "rural community survival" of course.



If the FG/Lab government gets elected with Bev "Class Act" Cooper Flynn as the powerbroker- you do have to wonder if this Mayo elite Leadership running the country will leave Dublin/Leinster to rot while Mayo gets a TGV and everything else it wants. And I bet they'll be still claiming that the "Dublin Government" oppresses them.

Speaking of Mayo, seeing the Greens give an award to the "environmentalists" from the Rossport 5 today really proves to me that the Greens are a party about a whole load of nothing.

Zoney

Navan Junction wrote:

Is there any upgrade works planned for the N17?

Dual carriageway from near Athenry (on the new N6 DC, where N18 DC will also join) to Tuam.

Navan Junction

Zoney wrote:

Dual carriageway from near Athenry (on the new N6 DC, where N18 DC will also join) to Tuam.

Thanks Zoney - thought that but wasn't sure. Are they bypassing Tuam? I passed through Tuam on a Friday evening last year and the streets in the town are heavy with traffic in rush-hour..

dodgyme

Navan Junction wrote:

We have the sticks up here too, and we have people living in them too.

Is there any upgrade works planned for the N17?
.

no there isnt

Navan Junction wrote:

Limerick commuter rail - great. Galway commuter rail - great. Sligo commuter rail - great.

But much of the WRC is a joke. And the joke is on the gob****es in Meath and Cavan that will be paying M3 tolls, €225m in levies towards the Navan line (put to use whenever the project starts after the WRC) and then through income tax for a land-use strategy free, levy-free low patronage project. If the project was likely to revolutionise the west I'd back it to the hilt, but it won't..

So the WRC is responsible for the M3 and have joke on the "gob****es in Meath and Cavan" - I think you need a reality check. Because they are campaigning for something for the west really is irrespective of the Navan line.

Also are you saying that the money generated from tolls is the reason for the navan line getting the go ahead?. I am hearing the opposite from others saying they are worried that the navan line will not get the go ahead from pace when the moterway is built, even thoug it apparently has got the "go ahead-ish" depending on who you too but it has been put back. Even pace has been put back to 2009 and its only a few kms from clonsilla

Also the rails are not there to revoluntionise anything. Both the navan and the WRC should be there to deal with existing latency, in other words make commuting more reasonable for people

Navan Junction wrote:

In this day and age, on this island railways should be about delivering mass transit where it is needed. Freight counts for nothing - Meath already has the only significant freight flow in the country and that is irrelvan. Freight-rich and mass transit potential just does not come into it with the WRC...

Yep I think you are prob right here

Navan Junction wrote:

Call it ignorance or whatever you like - the Fine Gael dumping of every other railway project in the country in their manifesto to faciliate 5 year reinstatement of Ennis to Claremorris says it all.
...

Navan Junction wrote:

There is plenty of countryside and there are plenty of lakes etc over this neck of the woods. Plenty of peaceful places too - the West does not have a monopoly on that. But why should people be forced to migrate to the West for a decent quality of life? ...

RElax think you are getting carried away here, no one is forcing migration mate or monopolising scenery here.

Navan Junction wrote:

Either way, ask yourself an honest question - is the WRC a need or a want? It's a want..

wrong it is a need for part of the line, for access to galway but not the whole length. If you read my earlier suggestions

Schuhart

dodgyme wrote:

Both the navan and the WRC should be there to deal with existing latency, in other words make commuting more reasonable for people

According to Westontrack’s sample timetable for Claremorris station, poor old Ann Melia won’t find the WRC much of an improvement. Her complaint is that it takes her one hour and ten minutes to get to Galway from Claremorris. However, the WRC would only provide her with one option – a departure at 7:35am that arrives in Galway at 8:50am – a journey time of one hour and fifteen minutes not including journey time to and from stations at each end.

If arriving in Galway at 8:50am doesn’t suit – or if the solitary evening departure from Galway at 17:25pm (which gets her back to Claremorris at 18:39pm) is similarly unsuitable, she’s still going to be in the car.

Why are we still talking about this nonsense? How does a publication with a very significant circulation in Irish terms waste so much paper without managing to get to the nub of the matter?

The WRC seems to trade entirely on the basis that people in the West will campaign for anything with 'West' in the title, regardless of whether it makes any sense.

loyatemu

Schuhart wrote:

According to Westontrack’s sample timetable for Claremorris station

WTF - is that for real???

they want to spend millions of euros reopening the line to run 3 trains a day in each direction!!

dodgyme

dowlingm wrote:

dodgyme - the point I'm making is that the WDC basically said come east of the Shannon and all will be well. .

Well you can make your point but blantantly lying is not on.

dowlingm wrote:

People have taken them up on the offer and are finding the infrastructure is inadequate .

Its not inadequate for alot of people, on a case by case scenario, it would be hard to say. Galway seems to be a particularly bad case, like a mini dublin really but other places are improving, ennis was terrible but now with the bypass is grand

Schuhart

loyatemu wrote:

WTF - is that for real???

they want to spend millions of euros reopening the line to run 3 trains a day in each direction!!

Yes, this is for real. This is what the Farmer's Journal have a whole big spread about, what the Western Development Commission support, what Westontrack claim is a vital piece of infrastructure.

Why is there so much noise about it? Because many people in the West support it out of a knee-jerk reaction. In cases where its details are explained, rather that just admitting they didn't realise what a joke the project is, they resort to increasingly ludicrous arguments pretending they still see some merit in the idea.

What's wrong with just admitting the WRC is a bad idea and a waste of money? How does the West gain by piling money into a big heap and setting fire to it? How are our Kyoto commitments helped by burning diesel to send empty rail cars about? How are commuters helped by an infrequent service that takes longer to get them where they need to go?

Schuhart

I’m just adding a little outbreak of paranoia. I notice that West On Track have changed the layout of their website so that the timetables are no longer indexed on the menu. Presumably, this reflects their realisation that the timetables reveal their proposal to be a complete joke.

I’d worry that, to frustrate thoughtcriminals, they might quietly delete those web pages, hence removing the raw data that convincingly refutes their case. Is there any way of capturing these pages to guard against this? There seems to be 20 pages (one for each station) as follows -

http://www.westontrack.com/timetable01.htm
http://www.westontrack.com/timetable02.htm

………
http://www.westontrack.com/timetable20.htm

markf909

Thankfully the web archive has stored the timetables so we aren't accused of doublespeak by WOT

http://web.archive.org/web/20040730150811/http://www.westontrack.com/

OTK

Schuhart wrote:

Is there any way of capturing these pages to guard against this?

Archive.org is the best know archive of web pages. You can see a sample archive here:
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.westontrack.com/timetable01.htm

archive.org attempts to archive the entire web every month but it can be hit and miss.

You can also use http://www.webcitation.org/ to archive specific pages.

westtip

Schuhart wrote:

The WRC seems to trade entirely on the basis that people in the West will campaign for anything with 'West' in the title, regardless of whether it makes any sense.

I live in the west and agree completely, the WRC campaign is an embarrassment which has no socio-economic justification. In particular the section from Claremorris to Collooney - which is an absolute joke. I have said it before and will say it again if one quarter of the money proposed to develop this rail line were invested in bus services in the sligo/mayo we could have a bus every half hour running along the route which connects the towns on the WRC and it could be a subvented service. The preserved rail line would make an excellent walking and cycling track, which would by the way be of huge economic benefit to the area - if you want to see how this idea helps tourism look at this web site http://www.derbyshire-peakdistrict.co.uk/tissingtontrail.htm

The section from Collooney to Claremorris will be the most expensive to reinstate, it is about 50 miles long. According to Sustrans in the UK http://www.sustrans.org.uk/ it costs about £30,000 a mile to create a walkway/cycling trail on an old railway line, OK this is Ireland so it will naturally cost more but even at 70,000 Euro a mile which is excessive by any stretch of the imagination a first class tourist facility could be had for 3.5 million euro. With little to no maintainence costs and actually offering a facility for people visiting and living in the area to get out off their backsides and take some exercise. Of course this won't happen because it is beyond the capabilities of our politicians to imagine such a scheme....but it would actually be of greater benefit to the west than the railway line with three trains a day from Claremorris to Collooney

Navan Junction

07:35 to GALWAY (08:50)

That won't be of much use. Only one train in the morning for commuters?

Commuters do that trip in 1hr 10mins by road according to the article. It's 1hr 15mins by train according to that timetable.

Plus arriving in Galway at 08:50 is no good unless you work in Galway station or beside it. Most commuters would be late for work with that arrival time.

In addition, what about starts before 9am? Most factories work 8-4.30pm, or else two cycle shifts of 7 to 3pm, 3 to 11pm.

One train in the morning is not much of a service, not least for commuters.

And this is the only heavy rail project listed in the FG manifesto??????????

D'Peoples Voice

dodgyme wrote:

However in the west the problem essentially is galway, which is basically like a small version of Dublin on the west coast with regards to traffic. So what is happening is that you make great time from mayo/roscommon/north galway to claregalway and then grind to a halt.

I agree, so why the hell are people in the west supporting the reinstatement of a railway line a good 100kms north of Claregalway.
the logic is like someone saying,
from the Kinsale roundabout inbound to Cork city is busy, so lets build a railway line from Cork city to Castletownbere haven.
It makes no sense!
Instead the lobby group should be putting pressure on the Government to build the Atlantic road Corridor from Sligo to Galway(and beyond to Cork), and a park and ride at claregalway, from where people can get a commuter train into Galway.
this is sustainable financially! Lets not forget the Atlantic rail corridor will be a drain on the government coffers EVERY year from when it is complete.

dodgyme

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

I agree, so why the hell are people in the west supporting the reinstatement of a railway line a good 100kms north of Claregalway..

I think if it goes ahead build a massive P & R the claremorris side of Tuam for traffic from the northern route and a stop a claregalway for suburban galwegians

If this pays for itself, what is the problem. I am not in agreement of the whole line reopening but just from claregalway to the city centre wouldnt be enough.

Schuhart

Navan Junction wrote:

And this is the only heavy rail project listed in the FG manifesto??????????

Page 81

Western Rail Corridor

• Fine Gael will support the reopening of the line from Ennis to Sligo and will re-open the WRC as far as Claremorris, during our first term in Government and instigate a Railway Order to Coolooney.

Why not vote for Mr Tayto? He seems to have as much of a grip on reality.

Schuhart

dodgyme wrote:

If this pays for itself, what is the problem.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that public transport has to pay for itself at the point of consumption. I'm just querying on what basis you are suggesting that your idea pays for itself - other than wishful thinking.

Bear in mind that experience suggests, by and large, if someone hops into a car to get to work they are less likely to stop halfway to their destination and switch to another mode.

I've a feeling we're trying to create any old kind of argument to keep any old bit of rail in the picture. I'd suggest the need to look at this the other way around. If letting people build one-off houses all across south Mayo means that they can only get jobs in Galway to which they must drive, and if there is no obvious public transport solution as they are scattered about South Mayo instead of concentrated in one place, then is the solution not for Galway to start saying to Mayo 'all your one-off houses are drowning us in traffic - stoppit'. Then you could plan for growth both in the city and in sizeable towns already served with rail.

What exactly is wrong with this approach, seeing as how (unlike the WRC) its actually related to the problem?

dowlingm

Re: N17 to Tuam - on the NRA website Tuam bypass is to be 2+1 but Tuam to Galway is tagged as "scheme in planning" - no road plan yet decided.

DerekP11

Schuhart wrote:

According to Westontrack’s sample timetable for Claremorris station, poor old Ann Melia won’t find the WRC much of an improvement. Her complaint is that it takes her one hour and ten minutes to get to Galway from Claremorris. However, the WRC would only provide her with one option – a departure at 7:35am that arrives in Galway at 8:50am – a journey time of one hour and fifteen minutes not including journey time to and from stations at each end.

If arriving in Galway at 8:50am doesn’t suit – or if the solitary evening departure from Galway at 17:25pm (which gets her back to Claremorris at 18:39pm) is similarly unsuitable, she’s still going to be in the car.

Why are we still talking about this nonsense? How does a publication with a very significant circulation in Irish terms waste so much paper without managing to get to the nub of the matter?

The WRC seems to trade entirely on the basis that people in the West will campaign for anything with 'West' in the title, regardless of whether it makes any sense.

This point should really have ended it all. Glad I didn't post it (but secretly wish I had) for fear of getting even more abusive phonecalls from the UK and Ireland about P11s stance on the WRC. Its like a religion.

dermo88

Lets give a few prize quotes from a sensationalist branch line nut. He won't go on IRN since I've attempted to pile boring logic on with a trowel when it comes to rail transport.

Boring and logical. Frequent, boringly repetitive, clean, "plastic" trains are what Ireland needs. The day we get rid of scruffy black and orange medieval torture chambers on rails is the day that those who truly care for the future of rail transport in Ireland.

The WRC is another gasp from a dying breed. The moment all the 071's are repainted and the last bit Black and Orange is down at Hammond Lane, the 141's head off for the Gillette factory is the moment that Irish Railways look to the future. The futures bright, but its not black and orange.

I got private messaged.

Heres the quotes, and my responses. I kept it anonymous, but you'll guess who it is.

"Why are you so anti-railway?

Your defence of trucks/lorries is invalid. The costs of maintaining roadways far exceeds that of railways; and the bare fact that there are several trucks heading from a single origin to a single destination on Ireland's roadways bespeaks the canard about trucking being more "efficient" than rail. The USA has been down that road (so to speak) for fifty years. It's killing the country"

I am not anti railway, and I have plenty of threads and postings on IRN to prove that.

Railfreight needs volumes to be effective. America has that, Europe has that. Heavy flows of Minerals, containers, etc, all going by rail. The 201's were purchased and specced to haul 1,500 tonne freight trains up Rathpeacon, which is a task they (sadly) never did. There is no comparison between America and Ireland, so the argument comparing a continent to a small island on the edge of Europe does not exist.

Your inordinate focus on the WRC is also invalid and a distraction from other more important issues. Take away the WRC's funding, and you wouldn't even get one-eighth of that duplicate Interconnector built, nor even any of the former MGWR corridor to/from Navan. If you really want the WRC to go away, then ignore it. Either that, or take a page from their book, since their version of lobbying seems to work whereas P11's doesn't (you'll never get anywhere
by giving fellatio to the government).


I am not focusing on the WRC. I focus on many other areas, and I made the effort of searching threads going back six years to back up my case. Other posters found them of interest, and it took a great deal of effort to do that.

As regards immaturity, it takes two hands to clap, and for you to refer to all my postings with terms such as "pollute" and "choler" is a poor reflection of your obvious intelligence.

Now, why does he want me to ignore the WRC. I support half of it, I support the Southern half, so I half support the WRC. But I will continue to ensure that whenever this topic rises from the dead that I throw some words in to tackle it.

I see another thread on Galway Light Rail......and its pure despair when I see this.

Transport21 Fan

dermo88 wrote:

(you'll never get anywhere
by giving fellatio to the government).

Oh, I know now who sent you this message is. I have emails and letters from the same deeply unwell man. It's very sad in many ways.

I would just ignore him dermo, as you are really just wrestling with the demons which haunt him and have driven him to this state.

dermo88

I'd be almost scared to go on a railtour with him on board. Can you forward on the e-mails from this character, after all, I could do with the entertainment.. There might be an accident if I met.

Its not just him. Its the entire branch line breed. They are watching their expensive, 1-1 scale taxpayer funded playground disappear, and they are lamenting its demise. Never mind, they probably look at us....sneeringly, pitying us, and say.

"They only want plastic trains"

And I smile, because its the future. Bring it on.

Now, after reading of the reopening of Broadstone, heres a new one that caught my eye.

This woke me up. This is what we should be looking at. Not that lot salivating over Athenry to Collooney.

http://www.darganproject.com

We can't be traipsing around from board to board supressing the WRC nonsense. The only way......just keep a link to the old threads, copy and paste the old stuff you've written. They'll soon get tired and go away.

Thank God the Internet did not exist when the Diesels came. We'd be fcked.

Heres how truly mad they are. They want the new trains (22000's) to FAIL. Thats how much they care for the future of the railways.

Meanwhile.....I saw Jeremy Clarkson on Youtube cutting up a LADA...in typical top gear style. Any chance we could bring him over to stage a crash test.....involving 141's, Cravens or Mark 2d's.....

I can only imagine the howls of horror.....from IRN!!!!

dermo88

Just keep this picture for any repeat of the WRC, and other assorted Brian Guckian...famous independent Transport consultant....Playboy magazine rail porn from you-know-who....and anything else outside the four major urban centres thats not possible or viable.



And repeat.

"Have you been studying that diagram I drew for you?"
"Remember, the cows appear small, because they are far away"

I just get entertainment from playing with them.....its too much fun....maybe I'm sick as well.

DerekP11

Either that, or take a page from their book, since their version of lobbying seems to work whereas P11's doesn't (you'll never get anywhere
by giving fellatio to the government).

Ha ha! I nearly pissed myself laughing at that one. More unsubstanciated, bitter, muck.

Anyway Dermo, the same person that you speak of, also speaks in a similar manner about another topic he considers himself knowledgeable on. The link is below. You will notice that the "mindset" is very similar. I guess he just thinks in that kind of way. Poor soul.

http://www.filmmakersnetwork.ie/forums/showthread.php?t=831

Read the extract from his article. It won't take you long to notice the theme of "social justice".

dermo88

Social justice.

Most people I see using that as an excuse have never known hunger, cold, or worry about where the next cent comes from. It makes me misty eyed and nostalgic to see that, its so sweet. Just reminds me of my friends during a strike singing "we'll keep the red flag flying", and some 12-13 years later, if they saw a red flag over the GPO, they'd be on the first plane out.

It sounds just like me when I was an 18 year old student earning buttons to pay for college and beer. I must have been somewhere to the left of Lenin.

Once upon a time, there was a kid, who said "we need railways everywhere, we need to rebuild Donegal, we should have more trains, we should have cheaper alcohol and cigarettes, we should have free travel for teenagers, we should have free books, we should have subsidised accomodation, give me, I am entitled, it should be our right"

And eventually, real life kicked in, and I got around a bit through work.

What scares me is finding a country that has squandered its wealth, which is what happened in the lost decade.

"Capitalism is the exploitation of one man by another, Socialism is the exact opposite" (John Maynard Keynes)

popebenny16

Well, to be fair to the chap referenced by dermo up above it must be pointed out that thus far i have not yet exercised fellatio on any government member.

I am waiting form a technical report from marco on the best method to use (i prefer using champagne and/or a cadbury creme egg) and Derek is drafting a press release. I may be readying a release of my own.

Oy vey, another WRC thread heads south.

time to bring on the cats i think.

Transport21 Fan

dermo88 wrote:

Social justice.

Most people I see using that as an excuse have never known hunger, cold, or worry about where the next cent comes from. It makes me misty eyed and nostalgic to see that, its so sweet.

They also need to know that there are people whom they deem to be below them so they can feel superior and pretend they care about them.

You see a lot of this carry on with the whole Man Made Global Warming cult - it appeals to them kind of affluent 'socialists' who are romantic about poor people remaining "uncomplicated and rustic" and not have their culture ruined...:rolleyes: It's just really the old fashioned snobbery thing masquerading as superficial compassion and empathy.

I won an art competition in Ballymun when I was about 10 and the judges were a couple of final year students from the College of Art and Design and they were to come up and give me the award while the photo was taken for the Northside People. Anyways, they were really late and the photographer finally found them in the Garda station asking to be escorted to the event as they were terrified of walking though the flats. They were driven over to the hall and gave me the prize and then begged the driven out of Ballymun by the photographer so they would not have to wait for a bus. There were like a couple of upper-middle class hippies from Foxrock. They were absolutely terrified of the place - like they had landed on another planet and could not wait to get out back into their own world.

About 10 years later I am walking down Grafton Street and there is one the same art students now a radical with a megaphone holding up a Socialists Workers banner proclaiming how in Ireland we need to overthrow the state. In his "loike, sooooooooo, loike sooooooooo" accent.

That's what made Rik Mayhall's character Rik 'The People's Poet' in the Young One's so perfect. It was right on the money.

THUNDERDOME HERE WE COME!

popebenny16

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I won an art competition in Ballymun when I was about 10 and the judges were a couple of final year students from the College of Art and Design and they were to come up and give me the award while the photo was taken for the Northside People.

That didnt happen and you know it.

Aha!!! Exposed as the fraud i always knew you were. Feck off back to Castleknock you spanner.

dodgyme

Schuhart wrote:

Bear in mind that experience suggests, by and large, if someone hops into a car to get to work they are less likely to stop halfway to their destination and switch to another mode.

well I dont know what experience you have but my experience is the opposite. People will stop half way if it is attractive. Using your 'experience' all those people who park at clonsilla in the morning should not be doing so but should continue on to there destination. Well that is not the case and this is what creates the demand for the train and it would be the case if part of the line opened as access to Galway, the same way as Clonsilla give access to the City centre or driving to heuston to get the luas into town to avoid the hassle of congestion. People break journeys up all the time because it can and is attractive to do so.

Schuhart

dodgyme wrote:

Using your 'experience' all those people who park at clonsilla in the morning should not be doing so but should continue on to there destination. Well that is not the case and this is what creates the demand for the train

You'll understand, I'm not saying that many people don't do this kind of thing. What I'm saying is someone who sits into their car in the morning is less likely to get out of it to get on the train. What creates demand for the train is people living along the route that can walk to the station and walk to their place of work at the far end.

I'm sure that the DTO produced surveys that showed the further out a commuter is the more likely they are to commute by car - its only common sense, really.

popebenny16

that was such a good point i'd say it three times, cinderella style.

dowlingm

I'm sure that the DTO produced surveys that showed the further out a commuter is the more likely they are to commute by car - its only common sense, really.

that's because public transport tends to drop in frequency over longer distances. For example - a given location 10km from an urban centre might gets served every 10 minutes, 20km every half hour, 40km every hour and 80km+ every 90min-3hrs because the catchment is lower [except in metropolitan areas with bidirectional catchments like the Glasgow-Edinburgh corridor]. Every two hours is one thing for a leisure traveller but for a commuter or business traveller the consequences of missing a train would be disastrous.

Transport21 Fan

Did anybody see the Greens party political broadcast this evening?

One of the kids says "when I grow up I want to be able to take a train from Galway to Cork" - but only the other day the Green Party themselves said that the WRC goes from Sligo to Tralee. I just can't keep track anymore. As this stage I think the Green's rail policy involves a handful of Hornby 00 gauge tracks which they toss on to a map of Ireland with Leinster cut-off it and then announce "right, that's our rail policy today."

That Green Party broadcast was really cornball and "sooooooooo inclusive loike" - prue New Labour spin rubbish which went out about 8 years ago when people saw it for what it was.

The whole "The Children, Who Thinks of the Children!!!!!" approach was really tacky. For a party which claims to be more Berlin than Boston that ad was like something you see on US TV. Shamelessly schmaltzy. I think the Monty Burns and Side Show Bob political campaign broadcasts were more believable.

I am voting for the PDs because I am evil.