Proof nobody thinks about public transport in this country

dodgyme

markpb wrote:

But that just propagates the problem, shouldn't we be trying to solve it? Feeder buses will only work if the councils make them work..

yes Feeder buses will only work if the councils make them work
I worked on building sites in Germany (city same size as dublin) and we would move all over the place to get to work. In the city you'd use the U-bahn and for say an equivalent of Navan (somewhere anywhere within about 1 hr of the city) youd get a train and a feeder bus would be there to meet it and you get to within 5 minutes of the building site at worst.

The housing patterns along the latter example were the same as in ireland. Generally lowish density and a few apartment blocks, same as the newbridges, navan etc. However it worked there fine and I can testify to this because of the feeder buses which suited the housing pattern and workers like me and I never needed a car. It should be the same in ireland.

In ireland to blame people when they cant get anywhere with comments like they "should have known better when buying in navan" is an insult to their intellegence. They didnt have much of a choice, planning in this country makes it like this, none of us who bought in the last ten years have had a reasonable choice in the property feeding frenzy that went on. What are you suppose to do, completely put you life on hold. We would all love to live beside a station but can't. Perhaps the solution is obvious, more stations and more feeder buses.

Schuhart

dodgyme wrote:

I worked on building sites in Germany (city same size as dublin) and we would move all over the place to get to work. In the city you'd use the U-bahn and for say an equivalent of Navan (somewhere anywhere within about 1 hr of the city) youd get a train and a feeder bus would be there to meet it and you get to within 5 minutes of the building site at worst.

If the location is Munich, then we can indeed only weep at the thought of their 6 underground lines and 8? suburban rail lines for much the same population as Dublin. When you consider the way some of the ‘Save the West’ types go on about the laying to 2 disconnected tram lines as if Luas was an unreasonably generous investment you really have to wonder. At the same time, I think you do have to wonder how some of the low density housing that’s gone up in recent years can ever be served by public transport – even by feeder bus.

dodgyme wrote:

In ireland to blame people when they cant get anywhere with comments like they "should have known better when buying in navan" is an insult to their intellegence. They didnt have much of a choice, planning in this country makes it like this, none of us who bought in the last ten years have had a reasonable choice in the property feeding frenzy that went on. What are you suppose to do, completely put you life on hold.

As I’ve said, I’m not convicting everyone on the basis of just anecdotal evidence that I’ve personally noticed of people with a choice who really should know better moving to inconvenient locations. However, I think we also have to guard against overcorrection in the opposite direction. The ‘affordability’ mantra can be used too much.

I took a quick scan at Navan just now on myhome.ie. (I’m not singling out Navan – it’s just a location that’s cropped up and it could be anywhere). There seemed to be three bed semi-ds going for around €300,000, and bungalows going for €400,000 plus. For that kind of money it would certainly be possible to get a two bedroom terrace house in Ballyfermot, close to schools, within the M50 and maybe an hour’s walk from the GPO. And that’s just a quick scan of myhome.ie. The idea that the alternative to living in Navan is a life on hold just doesn’t stack up on that basis.

I’m not pretending that public transport is oh so brilliant, and I stress again that I totally accept what I’m saying is no use to someone with an awkward commuting journey today. I’m just pointing out that, as individuals, many of us do have options to improve our situation in the medium term but pass them by. In the longer term, we should really stop digging.

dam099

Schuhart wrote:

I took a quick scan at Navan just now on myhome.ie. (I’m not singling out Navan – it’s just a location that’s cropped up and it could be anywhere). There seemed to be three bed semi-ds going for around €300,000, and bungalows going for €400,000 plus. For that kind of money it would certainly be possible to get a two bedroom terrace house in Ballyfermot, close to schools, within the M50 and maybe an hour’s walk from the GPO. And that’s just a quick scan of myhome.ie. The idea that the alternative to living in Navan is a life on hold just doesn’t stack up on that basis.

If you have a couple of kids a 2 bed terrace is not going to be much use to you. Part of the problem is the serious lack of family oriented apartments in Dublin i.e. a spacious 3 or more bedroom apartment. It seems in most developments that get approved you get mostly 1 and 2 bedroom apartments with a few 3 beds marketed as penthouses (and priced at a premium).

Schuhart

dam099 wrote:

If you have a couple of kids a 2 bed terrace is not going to be much use to you.

As I said, it was a quick look in the context of the alternative being what another poster described as a ‘life on hold’.

Another quick look yields a three bed for €300k in Ballyfermot, within the M50 and FWIW up the road from Clondalkin railway station. And this, you will understand, is far from exhausting the options available.

There simply are options available that don’t involve spending €300k on a three bed semi in Navan, or (probably more to the point) €420k on a bungalow outside Navan.

dam099 wrote:

Part of the problem is the serious lack of family oriented apartments in Dublin i.e. a spacious 3 or more bedroom apartment. It seems in most developments that get approved you get mostly 1 and 2 bedroom apartments with a few 3 beds marketed as penthouses (and priced at a premium).

I think you're right there, and that possibly reflects the demand in the market for 'investments' - i.e. building apartments that no-one is actually going to live in but are purchased in the expectation of a speculative gain.

dodgyme

Schuhart wrote:

When you consider the way some of the ‘Save the West’ types go on about the laying to 2 disconnected tram lines as if Luas was an unreasonably generous investment you really have to wonder..

I agree that is stupid, however from other post on this forum you swear the people in the west had no right to ask for anything while Dublin is in the mess it is in. Anyhow this is covered elsewhere in the transport forum. I see what you are saying though.

Schuhart wrote:

At the same time, I think you do have to wonder how some of the low density housing that’s gone up in recent years can ever be served by public transport – even by feeder bus.

Feeder buses are a good option and hoover up passengers for the trains. I mean one imp type bus could take the demand potential for 30+ cars from parking at a station.

Schuhart wrote:

As I’ve said, I’m not convicting everyone on the basis of just anecdotal evidence that I’ve personally noticed of people with a choice who really should know better moving to inconvenient locations.
.

There are always greedy people in society and ireland is in the mess it is because of this. Most cases these people dont need to use public transport.

Schuhart wrote:

I took a quick scan at Navan just now on myhome.ie...

Alright compare navan to Dublin 15 and North county dublin, where all the new houses are. At least in navan your children might be able to attend school. In most parts of D15 there is no schools, terrible bus service , nothing and this is within the metro area of dublin. ?? Also Navan to me looks like a more stable environment to have kids grow up in. Half of all the new estates in north and west dublin are to renters who really dont care about the area. Ya it is close to the city but you dont get the benfit of this (2hours it can take for the 39 to get into town from ongar??)



I’m not pretending that public transport is oh so brilliant, and I stress again that I totally accept what I’m saying is no use to someone with an awkward commuting journey today. I’m just pointing out that, as individuals, many of us do have options to improve our situation in the medium term but pass them by. In the longer term, we should really stop digging.[/QUOTE]

Schuhart

dodgyme wrote:

I agree that is stupid, however from other post on this forum you swear the people in the west had no right to ask for anything while Dublin is in the mess it is in. Anyhow this is covered elsewhere in the transport forum. I see what you are saying though.

Indeed, but just in passing I think the feeling is not so much that the West has no right to ask for anything, and more that the West gets quite a reasonable shake out of public funds and that, specifically, the West on Track campaign is for the birds.

dodgyme wrote:

Feeder buses are a good option and hoover up passengers for the trains. I mean one imp type bus could take the demand potential for 30+ cars from parking at a station.

If it works, fine. I'd nearly say the proof of the pudding is in the eating - it sounds like the kind of thing that could be tested out fairly easily by just hiring a bus and putting it out there.

dodgyme wrote:

Alright compare navan to Dublin 15 and North county dublin, where all the new houses are. At least in navan your children might be able to attend school. In most parts of D15 there is no schools, terrible bus service , nothing and this is within the metro area of dublin. ?? Also Navan to me looks like a more stable environment to have kids grow up in. Half of all the new estates in north and west dublin are to renters who really dont care about the area. Ya it is close to the city but you dont get the benfit of this (2hours it can take for the 39 to get into town from ongar??)

Bear in mind the three parts to what I'm saying.
a) None of this is of any help to someone with an awkward commute tomorrow.
b) In the medium term, individuals could find homes within the M50 if they really wanted. What we're seeing is not 'life on hold or else' - its a judgement that they don't want to live in the areas in Dublin that they can afford to live in.
c) In the long term, we'd really want to just do stuff so that people don't need to go 30 miles away to live, and particularly not off into the countryside, as its really not necessary.

In that context, you are absolutely right to raise the question of why so many Dublin housing developments went ahead without much thought about transport and other services. I mean, in this situation remoteness is hardly an issue (although Ballyfermot is a lot closer to the city than 'Ongar'. Ongarians are quite a recent addition to the city).

I'm glad you at least touched on the question people having this perception that they just don't want to live in the parts of the city that they can afford. This is probably quite an important factor, and I think its been sort of bubbling away out of sight. This ditches this whole mantra of 'affordability' being the sole factor. You'll understand, if we deem areas of the city of the 'unstable' it tends to turn into a self fufilling prophecy should we actually act to facilitate people moving to the far reaches. If, on the other hand, we simply sit back and let peoples pockets drive them to buy closer to the city, the problem pretty much cures itself.

I think the bottom line is clear. The decision to move thirty miles away is a choice, not a necessity, and cheap housing options are available within the M50 - no single individual has to choose between Navan and Ongar.

dodgyme

Schuhart wrote:

I'm glad you at least touched on the question people having this perception that they just don't want to live in the parts of the city that they can afford. .

Ok yes you are right, so what is the choice
sh8tty area with good transport
nice area with sh8tty transport.
why should this be the only choices?

Schuhart wrote:

I think the bottom line is clear. The decision to move thirty miles away is a choice, not a necessity.

So what stay in a crap area, oh that will be a great life.

Schuhart wrote:

cheap housing options are available within the M50 - no single individual has to choose between Navan and Ongar.

You are digging a hole here methinks. When you get to a certain age you want to buy a house and you buy a house where they are being built, navan, ongar, north dublin. I know alot of people that bought in navan because houses closer to town were not being built at the time.

Schuhart

dodgyme wrote:

Ok yes you are right, so what is the choice
sh8tty area with good transport
nice area with sh8tty transport.
why should this be the only choices?

I'm glad we've moved away from the idea that this is about affordability. The reason we have an issue is because many cringe at the prospect of giving their address as Ballyfermot. However, your blanket dismissal of the options out there is superficial.

dodgyme wrote:

You are digging a hole here methinks. When you get to a certain age you want to buy a house and you buy a house where they are being built, navan, ongar, north dublin. I know alot of people that bought in navan because houses closer to town were not being built at the time.

You'll understand, what I'm saying is not so much about what people do as what they could be doing. A brief search suggests that value is available in the second hand market. I haven't seen any substantial comment contradicting that. Now, clearly if everyone turns up looking for houses in Ballyfermot, then prices will rise. But my point is that situation does not exist today - an individual could pick up good value if that's what they want. Or they can move 30 miles away and complain about their commuting problem. But its a choice, and not a choice particularly about affordability.

But, taking it back to the thread title, the value to be had in the second hand market within the M50 suggests that nobody thinks about public transport in this country. Or schools or shops or access to health services ....

OTK

Back to the original question about Park and Ride in Enfield. Meath county council has made it a policy objective of its latest county development plan

To facilitate the provision of park and ride facilities at Dunboyne rail station, Pace Interchange, Enfield, Laytown, Gormanston and the reservation of adequate lands to provide for park and ride facilities at Navan and Bettystown. In the event of further growth in the south Drogheda Area, the Council will explore the need for park and ride facilities and the reservation of land for this purpose as appropriate.

Doesn't mean they're going to do it.

Also they have a zoning map for Enfield that specifies park and ride zoning around the station. I can't see who would pay for a park and ride facility. Maybe Irish Rail would with their subvention money or from passenger revenues. I'd prefer if they developed the land around the station for terraced urban housing but the council prefers people to live in suburban housing estates outside villages like Ballivor and Longwood.

So it seems that somebody has at least thought about parking facilities at Enfield.

dowlingm

The problem with feeder buses is this:

If IE wants feed to its service, it can't run its own buses - CIE has BE and DB to do that. So therefore if BE and DB can't be @rsed, it won't happen. The problem is that BE and DB are also competitors to IE. This is also putting local authorities under the thumb of central government who can interfere with CIE's priorities - but that's not much of a problem for the LAs since it means they don't have to pay.

What's required is for passengers to force the local authority to agree a schedule with IE and for them to tender for an operator to run the service under an agreed fare and PSO subsidy (say 75:25). It probably won't be integrated fares but given CIE's current structure that's how it has to be.

As I have probably mentioned before, GO Transit in Ontario uses buses from smaller regions to feed its rail services, and as a proving ground for rail extensions where track alignments exist

dodgyme

dowlingm wrote:

The problem with feeder buses is this (etc etc etc)

Always a major problem in this country getting the simpliest thing done. I am not knocking your point here dowlingme but for god sake, a few buses at a few stations to bring passengers to get to work and reduce traffic at the stations and parking etc etc. Sure its like the foot bridge in Clonsilla, other countries have built bridges to join their country to other countries, we cant go from one side of a fecking canal to the other??????????????.

I can see me watching "mega-feat of engineering" on the discovery channel and the presenter saying " On this episode - how the boston tunnel was built, How Hong Kong built an airport on an island after building the island and linked it with 120km speed underground to the city centre, And exclusively in part two how the irish have nearly completed the planning and objections phase to put a sh!tty rope bridge in place on a sh!tty road over a sh!tty canal in sh!tty dublin15 so more people dont nearly get knocked down every morning And next week how they plan to run a bus from one place maybe to another"

Victor

homeOwner wrote:

We dont have it any better in dublin, in fact you could say its worse. To park at the luas station is €4 for 24 hours (or €2 for 4 hours), so anyone who parks at the luas station for their daily commute to avoid driving on into town has to pay €20 per week on top of their luas fare. Its ridiculous. I thought the whole idea of park and ride to get to work was that it was a viable alternative to driving into town. The sensible thing to do would be to have parking free for people with commuter tickets (ie weekly, monthly, yearly) and people doing once off or occasional trips should have to pay.

Certainly on the Green Line, the fee to to dissuade people not using Luas from parking in Luas car parks.

AlekSmart

Its very illustrative as this thread develops to witness just how much the Private Car features.

Things are now so bad that even vast improvements to Public Transport are now checkmated by the inability of potential PT Users to park their cars as close as possible to the station/stop.

One doesnt even need to leave the City Centre to witness the witless.
All over An Lar the City Council relentelessly prioritizes Private Pay and Display parking spaces,taking particular joy in arranging these in such manner as to cause MAXIMUM disruption and inconvienence to PT Users and Operators.

City Managers,Directors of Traffic,Quality Bus Network Managers et al have come and gone to greater things, their passing is not even marked by the disappearance of one single obstructive Car Space.

You people talk about Bridges and "Facilities "...not until somebody reduces Civic Offices to a steaming Pile of Rubble and allows some sanity to prevail !!! :eek:

"Would YOU give these people €36 Billion to spend on ANYTHING ? "

Schuhart

AlekSmart wrote:

Things are now so bad that even vast improvements to Public Transport are now checkmated by the inability of potential PT Users to park their cars as close as possible to the station/stop.

There’s an article here by Frank McDonald on Dublin’s urban sprawl. There’s nothing really new in it – the concerns will be well known to many here. I’m just posting it as a good summary of the issue.

I think the significance of this is that we have to get the private car out of our thinking. It’s just unsustainable, and planning on the basis that it is utterly reasonable for significant numbers of people to drive to a rail station strikes me as the wrong approach. It’s almost underwriting the decision to move 30 miles or further away into a one-off house in the countryside for fear of having to give your address as Ballyfermot. The social and environmental costs of this are know and, again, I’ll only offer the McDonald article as a quick summary of things we already know.

I don’t know if there’s any conscious thought in the decisions not to provide much car parking. It may well be just the usual black hole argument as to what public authority should take responsibility for doing it – IE or the local authority. But I have to admit I’m not unhappy at the outcome. It looks to me like provision for private cars can only add to our problems.

The solution is developing housing within walking distance of facilities, and negate the need for cars. In other words, let’s stop digging.

mackerski

Victor wrote:

Certainly on the Green Line, the fee to to dissuade people not using Luas from parking in Luas car parks.

That can be sorted - leave the fee in place, but have an much smaller "upgrade charge" applicable to Luas tickets (or weekly tickets at least) that would include fare and P+R.

AlekSmart

Nice post Schuhart.

Mr Mac`s article contains two very apposite descriptions,the first is the use of the term "Delinquent" to describe then Environment Minister Martin Cullen`s decision to sit on his hands over Wexford Co Co`s destruction of Gorey rezoning scam.

Frank is also on the ball in his description of the Dublin Transport Authority as being a mere "bureaucratic creature" of the Dept of Transport,something which has also been guided by the less than lively hand of the same gent,Minister for Transport this time...Martin Cullen.

Given that the Working Party report on the Implimentation strategy for the DTA expressly opened with a demand for Land Use/Strategy powers it was VERY illuminating to witness how Minister (for Transport) Cullen began his acceptance speech by VERY firmly refuting the working party`s first and most important recommendation.

And why would any Minister of the Oireachtas take such a negative stance on a high-profile and deeply researched request from a VERY high level working party ?
Does anybody believe Martin when he sez it was "to uphold confidence in Local Administrative democratic process" ?

Who Knows....but I am of a mind to consider Judge McCracken`s (?) advice to his Tribunals Counsel......."Follow the paper trail..."

Frank Mac D has quite astutely spotted that without the Land Use and Planning powers the DTA is basically a VERY lame duck...and if it does`nt look like a Duck or quack like a Duck...then,a cheann comhairle......It ain`t a Duck at all !! :mad:

D'Peoples Voice

homeOwner wrote:

We dont have it any better in dublin, in fact you could say its worse. To park at the luas station is €4 for 24 hours (or €2 for 4 hours), so anyone who parks at the luas station for their daily commute to avoid driving on into town has to pay €20 per week on top of their luas fare. Its ridiculous.

I would have thought that a political party in opposition for 5 years would have come up with a BETTER solution.
When McGreevy brought in FULL tax relief on public transport tickets, there was no park 'n' ride. Now that there is Park 'n' ride, it should follow that Park 'n' Ride tickets should be tax deductible also. So for example, when you are buying your annual ticket, you also buy a annual parking ticket, and claim both of them back against your tax at your marginal rate.
But do you think the ALTERNATIVE government would suggest this! No- I ask you - is there any choice for whom to vote, except
http:\\www.johnbracken.ie - with hair like that ....