Proof nobody thinks about public transport in this country

Tom Dunne

Enfield train station has around 20 car park spaces. As usual, demand outstrips supply and every morning approx. 15 more have to park to the side of the station, along an entrance road to a housing estate. Not an ideal solution, but what choice is there (I should point out that I park there on occasion)?

This morning, out of the blue, they decide to implement clamping on this road. From what I hear, all 10-15 cars have been clamped. What the F**K are people supposed to do? Stay in their cars and continue on to Dublin? Go to Kilcock or Maynooth where there is even less car-parking?

At least in Leixlip Louisa Bridge, they built a brand-spanking new car-park and gave warnings to people who persisted in parking on the side of the road. A simple courtesy, not rocket science, just plain and simple manners.

So to the morons in Meath Co. Co. that decided to do this in the run up to election, would you mind taking a step back and think about what you are doing? Think of the extra cars on the road, think of the 12-15 pissed off voters who are in for a shock this evening, think of the stupidity of what you have just done, think of the repercussions of your actions.

Think.

/rant

D'Peoples Voice

tom dunne wrote:

So to the morons in Meath Co. Co. that decided to do this in the run up to election, would you mind taking a step back and think about what you are doing? Think of the extra cars on the road, think of the 12-15 pissed off voters who are in for a shock this evening, think of the stupidity of what you have just done, think of the repercussions of your actions.

I guess they can be thankful that it's another few years to the local elections!:)
What's the frequency of the local feeder bus to the station like?

Slice

Why don't you raise this with your local TD - especially if one shows up on your doorstep during the elections

markf909

Tell them to go park (illegally) in my estate in Maynooth.

The whole world seems to park there, folks are even parking there before 7AM when the normal car park isnt full just so they can save themselves time getting out of the station in the evening :rolleyes:

Tom Dunne

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

What's the frequency of the local feeder bus to the station like?

Ah, bless your innocence. Feeder bus? We are lucky to have a bus once an hour goin' to the big schmoke.

Why don't you raise this with your local TD - especially if one shows up on your doorstep during the elections

All I can say is bring em' on. They will get an earful over this one.

sikes

I am beginning to believe a vigualanti is in order to sort out the mess the country is in.

It's very amusing, but at the same time annoying, to watch people turn their non important jobs into the limelight by implementing idiotic policies which show a complete lack of understanding for basic concepts that govern their job.

Navan Junction

You sure they were not just ticketed??

Tom Dunne

Navan Junction wrote:

You sure they were not just ticketed??

Yeah, my boss's wife rang him to say he owes her €90 because she went and got him de-clamped.

markf909 wrote:

Tell them to go park (illegally) in my estate in Maynooth.

I don't for a minute condone parking in the way of residents, but what is the alternative? Drive the 2-2.5 hours into Dublin? I am just flabbergasted at the way they did this, no warning, no leaflets, nothing. As I pointed out with the Leixlip car-park, at least they have an alternative to parking on the side of the road and at least motorists were warned.

This came out of the blue with no warning.

Wishbone Ash

tom dunne wrote:

Enfield train station has around 20 car park spaces. As usual, demand outstrips supply and every morning approx. 15 more have to park to the side of the station, along an entrance road to a housing estate. Not an ideal solution, but what choice is there (I should point out that I park there on occasion)?

This morning, out of the blue, they decide to implement clamping on this road. From what I hear, all 10-15 cars have been clamped. What the F**K are people supposed to do? Stay in their cars and continue on to Dublin? Go to Kilcock or Maynooth where there is even less car-parking?

Tom - you might also find this thread to be of interest (from the North County Dublin Forum).

OTK

tom dunne wrote:

So to the morons in Meath Co. Co. that decided to do this in the run up to election, would you mind taking a step back and think about what you are doing? Think of the extra cars on the road, think of the 12-15 pissed off voters who are in for a shock this evening, think of the stupidity of what you have just done, think of the repercussions of your actions.

I think I can guess why this happened this month. I had a canvasser the other night who told me that my neighbours all had an issue with people parking on our road so that they can catch a bus to work. I don't mind people legally parking outside my house seeing as I do the same whenever I drive anywhere. I'm glad to see people using public transport. Also we have plenty of off-street parking so complaining about people parking on the road is just territorial.

So I'm guessing that the cars were clamped at the behest of a local candidate with influence to curry favour with the people in the estate. I can't imagine there's a problem getting parking near the station in Enfield. Maybe just drive a few more yards down the road into the same estate?

Tom Dunne

Interesting update on this.

Meath Co. Co. had nothing to do with it. It appears that it was the residents of the local housing estate, who, as it turns out, were legally not entitled to do this (according to Meath Co. Co.).

So, Tuesday afternoon, the Gardai were contacted by some disgruntled motorists and the Gardai contacted the clampers and had them remove all 10-12 clamps. Not only that, but there is a metallic (official looking) sign indicating clampers are in operation - the council told me that it was illegal to erect such a sign without planning permissions. This is in addition to the usual contact details for the clampers sign.

I can't imagine there's a problem getting parking near the station in Enfield. Maybe just drive a few more yards down the road into the same estate?

There isn't a problem, per se, the road in question doesn't have any houses on it as it is an entrance to an estate. But this is turning out to be a grey area. The estate hasn't been handed over to the council, so they don't own it and therefore can't enforce parking laws. The road is a public access to an estate, so it technically isn't owned by the builder (or the residents), so they don't have the legal right to enforce clamping either.

A local councilor has stated that it is a matter for the Gardai - they appear to have the final say in who can and can't park there. As far as the Gardai are concerned, anyone can park there if they want to.

dodgyme

Sure clonsilla is as stupid. You can park on the canal side up on the grass (well muck) (takes abit of a run and jump though) but if you do the same on the other side of the road you are ticketed?????

67Cougar

Being a rail user from Enfield I feel for your parking problem, but also being a resident there I must say that there is never an excuse for parking your car and leaving it in a position that it would cause annoyance to locals in the area. This issue must have caused the local residents alot of stress to embark down the road of clamping in the first place.

Maybe the Local resident association should have placed notices on the car's warning of the possaible consequences of parking there. However its not their problem that irish rail don't supply enough parking spaces.

Schuhart

Chucking out a thought that might be a tad contentious. (Very unusual for boards.ie).

Is the real proof that nobody thinks about public transport also reflected in how we expect that car parking beside railway stations is a necessary part of the scene? Should we not be operating on the basis of people living within walking distance of some public transport mode that gets them to work?

I know this doesn’t have much immediate practical benefit from someone living in the sticks and commuting to Dublin every day. But is it fair to say that the only real solution is to move either to the city or Enfield?

I would have thought the whole ‘park and ride’ concept is really only useful for the occasional visitor to the city, so that they’re saved the trouble to bringing their car into the centre city. But it seems unsuitable for a daily commute.

dodgyme

Schuhart wrote:

Should we not be operating on the basis of people living within walking distance of some public transport mode that gets them to work?.

Where this doesnt happen, Feeder buses between 7 and 9 and 5:30 to 7:30 would have same effect? but wont happen because this is ireland

Schuhart wrote:

I would have thought the whole ‘park and ride’ concept is really only useful for the occasional visitor to the city, so that they’re saved the trouble to bringing their car into the centre city. But it seems unsuitable for a daily commute.

Ah now come on. There isnt a space left after 7:45 in most carparks beside stations, if there is a car park. The occasional user is well down the order if fighting against the commuter. Bless your innocence

Tom Dunne

Schuhart wrote:

I would have thought the whole ‘park and ride’ concept is really only useful for the occasional visitor to the city, so that they’re saved the trouble to bringing their car into the centre city. But it seems unsuitable for a daily commute.

So what's the alternative? Drive past the train station and on into the City Center, taking anything up to 2 hours each way, 5 days a week?

Which would you rather - a 5 min drive, followed by an hour on the train, or a 2 hour drive?

I certainly know which I would rather.

Maybe the Local resident association should have placed notices on the car's warning of the possaible consequences of parking there. However its not their problem that irish rail don't supply enough parking spaces.

This is part of my point. The clamping was instigated without any viable alternative and without any warning. I refer you to my example in Leixlip above.

Schuhart

dodgyme wrote:

Where this doesnt happen, Feeder buses between 7 and 9 and 5:30 to 7:30 would have same effect? but wont happen because this is ireland

That would sound like some kind of public transport solution.

dodgyme wrote:

Ah now come on. There isnt a space left after 7:45 in most carparks beside stations, if there is a car park. The occasional user is well down the order if fighting against the commuter. Bless your innocence

You’ll understand, the point I’m making is (ideally) park and ride should hardly be part of someone’s daily commute. Clearly I know that many people do actually incorporate such journeys into their daily routine. I’m suggesting that, in principle, this is not the way to plan.

In Leixlip there’s land beside Confey station and some (not any official source) have said to me there’s a vague intention to put more parking there. My view would be why not put more housing there? Why the mindset that people should drive to the station, rather than the idea that houses should be built close to public transport, schools, shops and other necessary facilities? Alternatively, why buy a house and then complain about the lack of parking in Enfield? Why not just live in Enfield? If affordable housing is really the issue here, then surely that should be the focus of interest and not parking? I know that sort of bigger picture than the immediate problem of someone getting to work tomorrow - but I just had that thought about the wider implications of the statement Proof nobody thinks about public transport.

Schuhart

tom dunne wrote:

So what's the alternative? Drive past the train station and on into the City Center, taking anything up to 2 hours each way, 5 days a week?

I suppose that's why I feel, ultimately, the solution is to move to within walking distance of a station.

markpb

Schuhart wrote:

In Leixlip there’s land beside Confey station and some (not any official source) have said to me there’s a vague intention to put more parking there. My view would be why not put more housing there? Why the mindset that people should drive to the station, rather than the idea that houses should be built close to public transport, schools, shops and other necessary facilities? Alternatively, why buy a house and then complain about the lack of parking in Enfield? Why not just live in Enfield? If affordable housing is really the issue here, then surely that should be the focus of interest and not parking? I know that sort of bigger picture than the immediate problem of someone getting to work tomorrow - but I just had that thought about the wider implications of the statement Proof nobody thinks about public transport.

Because everyone wants a four bed house with a garden and pond but somehow magically have public transport that's convenient to them

You are bang on though. Public transport is very much the lame duck in Ireland when it comes to planning or even (for some people) considering where to buy a house. LA MTA have a transit oriented development project in North Hollywood where the BRT Orange Line and subway Red Line come together. They worked with city officials and developers to build a huge plot of medium rise / high density apartment blocks all around the MTA land. The result is (will be) thousand of people living no more than a ten minute walk from the MTA network.

jackofalltrades

LA MTA have a transit oriented development project in North Hollywood where the BRT Orange Line and subway Red Line come together. They worked with city officials and developers to build a huge plot of medium rise / high density apartment blocks all around the MTA land. The result is (will be) thousand of people living no more than a ten minute walk from the MTA network.

For all the use it would be to these people. Top marks to the MTA for trying though, if they were let free reign in Dublin we'd probably have a world class metro by now.

Garret

Schuhart wrote:

I suppose that's why I feel, ultimately, the solution is to move to within walking distance of a station.

right, well in drogheda i know that you can pay up to 40k more for a house beside the station, than an equivilant one on the far side of town

thousands use that station every day

do you suggest they all move within 20 mins walk of the station???

homeOwner

We dont have it any better in dublin, in fact you could say its worse. To park at the luas station is €4 for 24 hours (or €2 for 4 hours), so anyone who parks at the luas station for their daily commute to avoid driving on into town has to pay €20 per week on top of their luas fare. Its ridiculous. I thought the whole idea of park and ride to get to work was that it was a viable alternative to driving into town. The sensible thing to do would be to have parking free for people with commuter tickets (ie weekly, monthly, yearly) and people doing once off or occasional trips should have to pay.

Tom Dunne

Schuhart wrote:

I suppose that's why I feel, ultimately, the solution is to move to within walking distance of a station.

In an ideal world, yes, everyone would live within walking distance of a station. In the cities, that is slightly more possible, but in further out "commuter" towns, it just doesn't happen. I think Navan is the most glaringly obvious example of gross incompetence when it comes to commuter rail.

But given the many reasons people are moving further and further out from the city (I suppose I am focusing on Dublin here, but I am sure it is the same for other cities), it's up to the planners to build sustainable communities around public transport, among other things. And we all know how much of a success that has been.

Schuhart

Garret wrote:

in drogheda i know that you can pay up to 40k more for a house beside the station, than an equivilant one on the far side of town

And does this not make us see what they're paying the 'up to 40k' for.

Garret wrote:

do you suggest they all move within 20 mins walk of the station???

I've said, if you'll notice, that what I'm saying is of little benefit to someone who needs to get to work tomorrow. However, I think one medium and one longer term point emerge. Firstly, any individual buying a house should most certainly think about proximity to public transport. If the only house you can afford is outside Kinnegad, then its just not worth having and there's no point in anyone fooling themselves. That shifts the issue to one of affordable housing.

The long term point is, indeed, that we should plan on the basis of any house being withing 20 minutes walk of public transport. Can anyone else see any feasible alternative to this? tbh, I've sort of wondered all along at some of the housing developments I've seen spring up hither and dither in the ring of counties about Dublin, along with many others, thinking that the life pattern those developments involve just has to run into a wall at some stage.

Tom Dunne

Schuhart wrote:

Firstly, any individual buying a house should most certainly think about proximity to public transport. If the only house you can afford is outside Kinnegad, then its just not worth having and there's no point in anyone fooling themselves. That shifts the issue to one of affordable housing.

I couldn't disagree more.

The bottom line in this country is that people buy houses based on affordability. Fact. Proximity to anything is irrelevant (schools, shops, public transport). If the only house you can afford is in Kinnegad, or Kells, or Avoca, or Duleek, then you are going to buy there.

Public transport does not factor high in the priority list of people buying houses. Besides, there are many professions where public transport is just not suited - those in the building trade, for example, who move from site to site over the course of a year.

You also seem to be assuming that commuters stay in the one job for life. You know that is not true - what if the job of a lifetime is not located near a train station? What option do commuters/employees have?

The simple fact of the matter is the the public transport infrastructure is light years behind a modern, developed country. For a good percentage of workers, it isn't an option for getting to work.

Schuhart

tom dunne wrote:

I couldn't disagree more.

Unfortunately, I can’t see much refutation of my point in what you say. I’m not contesting what people do. I pointing out the implications that come out of it.

tom dunne wrote:

The bottom line in this country is that people buy houses based on affordability. Fact. Proximity to anything is irrelevant (schools, shops, public transport). If the only house you can afford is in Kinnegad, or Kells, or Avoca, or Duleek, then you are going to buy there.

And, of course, the point I’m making is they are ultimately like the boy putting his finger in the dam. Buying houses in unserviced locations is simply pointless and a false economy if anyone truly believes them to be ‘afforable’. I don’t see where you are contesting the substance of that.

tom dunne wrote:

Public transport does not factor high in the priority list of people buying houses.

Which is sort of the point I’m making. The thread seemed to start on the basis that public transport was neglected by planning authorities, evidenced by a lack of car parking at train stations. My point is that public transport is not thought of by people when they, for the sake of argument, choose to build or buy a one-off house in the countryside instead of choosing a location served by public transport. I’m glad we now agree on this point.

tom dunne wrote:

Besides, there are many professions where public transport is just not suited - those in the building trade, for example, who move from site to site over the course of a year.

Are you suggesting that because some people have jobs that involve moving around locations, that we should not plan to provide public transport for the very many people that it can serve? This is an extraordinary statement, bearing in mind that in Ireland generally and in Dublin in particular, we know that we are far from exploiting the full potential of public transport.

tom dunne wrote:

You also seem to be assuming that commuters stay in the one job for life.

I frankly cannot see why you say that.

tom dunne wrote:

You know that is not true - what if the job of a lifetime is not located near a train station? What option do commuters/employees have?

I’m a little stunned by this statement, too. Clearly, locating an enterprise in a location not served by public transport is just as ludicrous as buying a cheap house outside Kells and then wondering how to get to Dublin every morning. I’m not saying this doesn’t happen, because obviously it does. I’d mention again than I’m saying up front that nothing I say is of any use to someone living in Kells today and commuting to the Sandyford Industrial Estate tomorrow. I’m simply pointing out that this is a ludicrous situation, and the only rational approach is to stop digging.

tom dunne wrote:

The simple fact of the matter is the the public transport infrastructure is light years behind a modern, developed country. For a good percentage of workers, it isn't an option for getting to work.

There, of course, we agree. What seems to cause the difficulty is moving beyond that opening statement to what I see as the fairly obvious conclusions as to where that takes us.

markpb

tom dunne wrote:

The bottom line in this country is that people buy houses based on affordability. Fact. Proximity to anything is irrelevant (schools, shops, public transport). If the only house you can afford is in Kinnegad, or Kells, or Avoca, or Duleek, then you are going to buy there.

Public transport does not factor high in the priority list of people buying houses. Besides, there are many professions where public transport is just not suited - those in the building trade, for example, who move from site to site over the course of a year.

To put it bluntly, people who buy houses or apartments without giving consideration to facilities have only themselves to blame. If you buy a house that forces you to drive to work, school and shops, or rules you out of using public transport, you're only fooling yourself if you think you're saving money. How much does a car cost? How much if you include petrol, tax, insurance, wear and tear, parking and your time if you're looking for parking or stuck in traffic?

Yes there are some valid reasons for why we ended up in this mess (poor tenant protection laws and a poor public transport network being the main two) but if you want to be honest, too many people were swept up in the 'must buy a big house with a big garden' mentality and, like you said, gave scant regard to anything else.

dodgyme

Schuhart wrote:

land beside Confey station ... to put more parking there. My view would be why not put more housing there? Why the mindset that people should drive to the station.

and then everyone who lives in these houses would be complaining because of the people parking there to get the train which is what is happening now. I do understand your point but I think with the massive shortfall in public transport in Ireland, and the lack of density in population patterns, decent park and rides might be the best option. It will get people out of there cars for most of the journey. i personally think feeder buses is the way forward for our pattern. Do you understand me?

markpb

dodgyme wrote:

and then everyone who lives in these houses would be complaining because of the people parking there to get the train which is what is happening now. I do understand your point but I think with the massive shortfall in public transport in Ireland, and the lack of density in population patterns, decent park and rides might be the best option. It will get people out of there cars for most of the journey. i personally think feeder buses is the way forward for our pattern. Do you understand me?

But that just propagates the problem, shouldn't we be trying to solve it? Feeder buses will only work if the councils make them work. They need roads wide enough for bus lanes, bus priority measures at junctions, etc. FCC in particular have been spectacularly bad at that. There's nothing worse than a bad feeder bus, people would rather drive.

Why not do one of the much vaunted public-private partnerships and have the government build a huge multi-storey underground car park for commuters and let a developer built apartments on top of that. Best of both worlds.

Schuhart

markpb wrote:

too many people were swept up in the 'must buy a big house with a big garden' mentality and, like you said, gave scant regard to anything else.

On that note, anecdotaly, I've noticed an amount of people locally sell up their modest semi-d close to all amenities, to build/buy their pile a few miles into the countryside and then report they spend their lives in the car. In fact, this knowledge is so widespread I can't actually understand why it still goes on.

I don't want to convict everyone on the basis of such anecdotal evidence. But I think this matter of 'affordability' is sometimes a smokescreen for people just making poor personal decisions. In fairness, if you browse myhome.ie, it looks like you don't really save money by buying a pile in the countryside - you just get a bigger house.

Schuhart

dodgyme wrote:

Do you understand me?

I understand you, but I think what you are saying is basically 'keep digging'. That doesn't strike me as a sensible solution. as markpb says, shouldn't we be trying to solve the problem?