Proof nobody thinks about public transport in this country

Tom Dunne

Enfield train station has around 20 car park spaces. As usual, demand outstrips supply and every morning approx. 15 more have to park to the side of the station, along an entrance road to a housing estate. Not an ideal solution, but what choice is there (I should point out that I park there on occasion)?

This morning, out of the blue, they decide to implement clamping on this road. From what I hear, all 10-15 cars have been clamped. What the F**K are people supposed to do? Stay in their cars and continue on to Dublin? Go to Kilcock or Maynooth where there is even less car-parking?

At least in Leixlip Louisa Bridge, they built a brand-spanking new car-park and gave warnings to people who persisted in parking on the side of the road. A simple courtesy, not rocket science, just plain and simple manners.

So to the morons in Meath Co. Co. that decided to do this in the run up to election, would you mind taking a step back and think about what you are doing? Think of the extra cars on the road, think of the 12-15 pissed off voters who are in for a shock this evening, think of the stupidity of what you have just done, think of the repercussions of your actions.

Think.

/rant

D'Peoples Voice

tom dunne wrote:

So to the morons in Meath Co. Co. that decided to do this in the run up to election, would you mind taking a step back and think about what you are doing? Think of the extra cars on the road, think of the 12-15 pissed off voters who are in for a shock this evening, think of the stupidity of what you have just done, think of the repercussions of your actions.

I guess they can be thankful that it's another few years to the local elections!:)
What's the frequency of the local feeder bus to the station like?

Slice

Why don't you raise this with your local TD - especially if one shows up on your doorstep during the elections

markf909

Tell them to go park (illegally) in my estate in Maynooth.

The whole world seems to park there, folks are even parking there before 7AM when the normal car park isnt full just so they can save themselves time getting out of the station in the evening :rolleyes:

Tom Dunne

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

What's the frequency of the local feeder bus to the station like?

Ah, bless your innocence. Feeder bus? We are lucky to have a bus once an hour goin' to the big schmoke.

Why don't you raise this with your local TD - especially if one shows up on your doorstep during the elections

All I can say is bring em' on. They will get an earful over this one.

sikes

I am beginning to believe a vigualanti is in order to sort out the mess the country is in.

It's very amusing, but at the same time annoying, to watch people turn their non important jobs into the limelight by implementing idiotic policies which show a complete lack of understanding for basic concepts that govern their job.

Navan Junction

You sure they were not just ticketed??

Tom Dunne

Navan Junction wrote:

You sure they were not just ticketed??

Yeah, my boss's wife rang him to say he owes her €90 because she went and got him de-clamped.

markf909 wrote:

Tell them to go park (illegally) in my estate in Maynooth.

I don't for a minute condone parking in the way of residents, but what is the alternative? Drive the 2-2.5 hours into Dublin? I am just flabbergasted at the way they did this, no warning, no leaflets, nothing. As I pointed out with the Leixlip car-park, at least they have an alternative to parking on the side of the road and at least motorists were warned.

This came out of the blue with no warning.

Wishbone Ash

tom dunne wrote:

Enfield train station has around 20 car park spaces. As usual, demand outstrips supply and every morning approx. 15 more have to park to the side of the station, along an entrance road to a housing estate. Not an ideal solution, but what choice is there (I should point out that I park there on occasion)?

This morning, out of the blue, they decide to implement clamping on this road. From what I hear, all 10-15 cars have been clamped. What the F**K are people supposed to do? Stay in their cars and continue on to Dublin? Go to Kilcock or Maynooth where there is even less car-parking?

Tom - you might also find this thread to be of interest (from the North County Dublin Forum).

OTK

tom dunne wrote:

So to the morons in Meath Co. Co. that decided to do this in the run up to election, would you mind taking a step back and think about what you are doing? Think of the extra cars on the road, think of the 12-15 pissed off voters who are in for a shock this evening, think of the stupidity of what you have just done, think of the repercussions of your actions.

I think I can guess why this happened this month. I had a canvasser the other night who told me that my neighbours all had an issue with people parking on our road so that they can catch a bus to work. I don't mind people legally parking outside my house seeing as I do the same whenever I drive anywhere. I'm glad to see people using public transport. Also we have plenty of off-street parking so complaining about people parking on the road is just territorial.

So I'm guessing that the cars were clamped at the behest of a local candidate with influence to curry favour with the people in the estate. I can't imagine there's a problem getting parking near the station in Enfield. Maybe just drive a few more yards down the road into the same estate?

Tom Dunne

Interesting update on this.

Meath Co. Co. had nothing to do with it. It appears that it was the residents of the local housing estate, who, as it turns out, were legally not entitled to do this (according to Meath Co. Co.).

So, Tuesday afternoon, the Gardai were contacted by some disgruntled motorists and the Gardai contacted the clampers and had them remove all 10-12 clamps. Not only that, but there is a metallic (official looking) sign indicating clampers are in operation - the council told me that it was illegal to erect such a sign without planning permissions. This is in addition to the usual contact details for the clampers sign.

I can't imagine there's a problem getting parking near the station in Enfield. Maybe just drive a few more yards down the road into the same estate?

There isn't a problem, per se, the road in question doesn't have any houses on it as it is an entrance to an estate. But this is turning out to be a grey area. The estate hasn't been handed over to the council, so they don't own it and therefore can't enforce parking laws. The road is a public access to an estate, so it technically isn't owned by the builder (or the residents), so they don't have the legal right to enforce clamping either.

A local councilor has stated that it is a matter for the Gardai - they appear to have the final say in who can and can't park there. As far as the Gardai are concerned, anyone can park there if they want to.

dodgyme

Sure clonsilla is as stupid. You can park on the canal side up on the grass (well muck) (takes abit of a run and jump though) but if you do the same on the other side of the road you are ticketed?????

67Cougar

Being a rail user from Enfield I feel for your parking problem, but also being a resident there I must say that there is never an excuse for parking your car and leaving it in a position that it would cause annoyance to locals in the area. This issue must have caused the local residents alot of stress to embark down the road of clamping in the first place.

Maybe the Local resident association should have placed notices on the car's warning of the possaible consequences of parking there. However its not their problem that irish rail don't supply enough parking spaces.

Schuhart

Chucking out a thought that might be a tad contentious. (Very unusual for boards.ie).

Is the real proof that nobody thinks about public transport also reflected in how we expect that car parking beside railway stations is a necessary part of the scene? Should we not be operating on the basis of people living within walking distance of some public transport mode that gets them to work?

I know this doesn’t have much immediate practical benefit from someone living in the sticks and commuting to Dublin every day. But is it fair to say that the only real solution is to move either to the city or Enfield?

I would have thought the whole ‘park and ride’ concept is really only useful for the occasional visitor to the city, so that they’re saved the trouble to bringing their car into the centre city. But it seems unsuitable for a daily commute.

dodgyme

Schuhart wrote:

Should we not be operating on the basis of people living within walking distance of some public transport mode that gets them to work?.

Where this doesnt happen, Feeder buses between 7 and 9 and 5:30 to 7:30 would have same effect? but wont happen because this is ireland

Schuhart wrote:

I would have thought the whole ‘park and ride’ concept is really only useful for the occasional visitor to the city, so that they’re saved the trouble to bringing their car into the centre city. But it seems unsuitable for a daily commute.

Ah now come on. There isnt a space left after 7:45 in most carparks beside stations, if there is a car park. The occasional user is well down the order if fighting against the commuter. Bless your innocence

Tom Dunne

Schuhart wrote:

I would have thought the whole ‘park and ride’ concept is really only useful for the occasional visitor to the city, so that they’re saved the trouble to bringing their car into the centre city. But it seems unsuitable for a daily commute.

So what's the alternative? Drive past the train station and on into the City Center, taking anything up to 2 hours each way, 5 days a week?

Which would you rather - a 5 min drive, followed by an hour on the train, or a 2 hour drive?

I certainly know which I would rather.

Maybe the Local resident association should have placed notices on the car's warning of the possaible consequences of parking there. However its not their problem that irish rail don't supply enough parking spaces.

This is part of my point. The clamping was instigated without any viable alternative and without any warning. I refer you to my example in Leixlip above.

Schuhart

dodgyme wrote:

Where this doesnt happen, Feeder buses between 7 and 9 and 5:30 to 7:30 would have same effect? but wont happen because this is ireland

That would sound like some kind of public transport solution.

dodgyme wrote:

Ah now come on. There isnt a space left after 7:45 in most carparks beside stations, if there is a car park. The occasional user is well down the order if fighting against the commuter. Bless your innocence

You’ll understand, the point I’m making is (ideally) park and ride should hardly be part of someone’s daily commute. Clearly I know that many people do actually incorporate such journeys into their daily routine. I’m suggesting that, in principle, this is not the way to plan.

In Leixlip there’s land beside Confey station and some (not any official source) have said to me there’s a vague intention to put more parking there. My view would be why not put more housing there? Why the mindset that people should drive to the station, rather than the idea that houses should be built close to public transport, schools, shops and other necessary facilities? Alternatively, why buy a house and then complain about the lack of parking in Enfield? Why not just live in Enfield? If affordable housing is really the issue here, then surely that should be the focus of interest and not parking? I know that sort of bigger picture than the immediate problem of someone getting to work tomorrow - but I just had that thought about the wider implications of the statement Proof nobody thinks about public transport.

Schuhart

tom dunne wrote:

So what's the alternative? Drive past the train station and on into the City Center, taking anything up to 2 hours each way, 5 days a week?

I suppose that's why I feel, ultimately, the solution is to move to within walking distance of a station.

markpb

Schuhart wrote:

In Leixlip there’s land beside Confey station and some (not any official source) have said to me there’s a vague intention to put more parking there. My view would be why not put more housing there? Why the mindset that people should drive to the station, rather than the idea that houses should be built close to public transport, schools, shops and other necessary facilities? Alternatively, why buy a house and then complain about the lack of parking in Enfield? Why not just live in Enfield? If affordable housing is really the issue here, then surely that should be the focus of interest and not parking? I know that sort of bigger picture than the immediate problem of someone getting to work tomorrow - but I just had that thought about the wider implications of the statement Proof nobody thinks about public transport.

Because everyone wants a four bed house with a garden and pond but somehow magically have public transport that's convenient to them

You are bang on though. Public transport is very much the lame duck in Ireland when it comes to planning or even (for some people) considering where to buy a house. LA MTA have a transit oriented development project in North Hollywood where the BRT Orange Line and subway Red Line come together. They worked with city officials and developers to build a huge plot of medium rise / high density apartment blocks all around the MTA land. The result is (will be) thousand of people living no more than a ten minute walk from the MTA network.

jackofalltrades

LA MTA have a transit oriented development project in North Hollywood where the BRT Orange Line and subway Red Line come together. They worked with city officials and developers to build a huge plot of medium rise / high density apartment blocks all around the MTA land. The result is (will be) thousand of people living no more than a ten minute walk from the MTA network.

For all the use it would be to these people. Top marks to the MTA for trying though, if they were let free reign in Dublin we'd probably have a world class metro by now.

Garret

Schuhart wrote:

I suppose that's why I feel, ultimately, the solution is to move to within walking distance of a station.

right, well in drogheda i know that you can pay up to 40k more for a house beside the station, than an equivilant one on the far side of town

thousands use that station every day

do you suggest they all move within 20 mins walk of the station???

homeOwner

We dont have it any better in dublin, in fact you could say its worse. To park at the luas station is €4 for 24 hours (or €2 for 4 hours), so anyone who parks at the luas station for their daily commute to avoid driving on into town has to pay €20 per week on top of their luas fare. Its ridiculous. I thought the whole idea of park and ride to get to work was that it was a viable alternative to driving into town. The sensible thing to do would be to have parking free for people with commuter tickets (ie weekly, monthly, yearly) and people doing once off or occasional trips should have to pay.

Tom Dunne

Schuhart wrote:

I suppose that's why I feel, ultimately, the solution is to move to within walking distance of a station.

In an ideal world, yes, everyone would live within walking distance of a station. In the cities, that is slightly more possible, but in further out "commuter" towns, it just doesn't happen. I think Navan is the most glaringly obvious example of gross incompetence when it comes to commuter rail.

But given the many reasons people are moving further and further out from the city (I suppose I am focusing on Dublin here, but I am sure it is the same for other cities), it's up to the planners to build sustainable communities around public transport, among other things. And we all know how much of a success that has been.

Schuhart

Garret wrote:

in drogheda i know that you can pay up to 40k more for a house beside the station, than an equivilant one on the far side of town

And does this not make us see what they're paying the 'up to 40k' for.

Garret wrote:

do you suggest they all move within 20 mins walk of the station???

I've said, if you'll notice, that what I'm saying is of little benefit to someone who needs to get to work tomorrow. However, I think one medium and one longer term point emerge. Firstly, any individual buying a house should most certainly think about proximity to public transport. If the only house you can afford is outside Kinnegad, then its just not worth having and there's no point in anyone fooling themselves. That shifts the issue to one of affordable housing.

The long term point is, indeed, that we should plan on the basis of any house being withing 20 minutes walk of public transport. Can anyone else see any feasible alternative to this? tbh, I've sort of wondered all along at some of the housing developments I've seen spring up hither and dither in the ring of counties about Dublin, along with many others, thinking that the life pattern those developments involve just has to run into a wall at some stage.

Tom Dunne

Schuhart wrote:

Firstly, any individual buying a house should most certainly think about proximity to public transport. If the only house you can afford is outside Kinnegad, then its just not worth having and there's no point in anyone fooling themselves. That shifts the issue to one of affordable housing.

I couldn't disagree more.

The bottom line in this country is that people buy houses based on affordability. Fact. Proximity to anything is irrelevant (schools, shops, public transport). If the only house you can afford is in Kinnegad, or Kells, or Avoca, or Duleek, then you are going to buy there.

Public transport does not factor high in the priority list of people buying houses. Besides, there are many professions where public transport is just not suited - those in the building trade, for example, who move from site to site over the course of a year.

You also seem to be assuming that commuters stay in the one job for life. You know that is not true - what if the job of a lifetime is not located near a train station? What option do commuters/employees have?

The simple fact of the matter is the the public transport infrastructure is light years behind a modern, developed country. For a good percentage of workers, it isn't an option for getting to work.

Schuhart

tom dunne wrote:

I couldn't disagree more.

Unfortunately, I can’t see much refutation of my point in what you say. I’m not contesting what people do. I pointing out the implications that come out of it.

tom dunne wrote:

The bottom line in this country is that people buy houses based on affordability. Fact. Proximity to anything is irrelevant (schools, shops, public transport). If the only house you can afford is in Kinnegad, or Kells, or Avoca, or Duleek, then you are going to buy there.

And, of course, the point I’m making is they are ultimately like the boy putting his finger in the dam. Buying houses in unserviced locations is simply pointless and a false economy if anyone truly believes them to be ‘afforable’. I don’t see where you are contesting the substance of that.

tom dunne wrote:

Public transport does not factor high in the priority list of people buying houses.

Which is sort of the point I’m making. The thread seemed to start on the basis that public transport was neglected by planning authorities, evidenced by a lack of car parking at train stations. My point is that public transport is not thought of by people when they, for the sake of argument, choose to build or buy a one-off house in the countryside instead of choosing a location served by public transport. I’m glad we now agree on this point.

tom dunne wrote:

Besides, there are many professions where public transport is just not suited - those in the building trade, for example, who move from site to site over the course of a year.

Are you suggesting that because some people have jobs that involve moving around locations, that we should not plan to provide public transport for the very many people that it can serve? This is an extraordinary statement, bearing in mind that in Ireland generally and in Dublin in particular, we know that we are far from exploiting the full potential of public transport.

tom dunne wrote:

You also seem to be assuming that commuters stay in the one job for life.

I frankly cannot see why you say that.

tom dunne wrote:

You know that is not true - what if the job of a lifetime is not located near a train station? What option do commuters/employees have?

I’m a little stunned by this statement, too. Clearly, locating an enterprise in a location not served by public transport is just as ludicrous as buying a cheap house outside Kells and then wondering how to get to Dublin every morning. I’m not saying this doesn’t happen, because obviously it does. I’d mention again than I’m saying up front that nothing I say is of any use to someone living in Kells today and commuting to the Sandyford Industrial Estate tomorrow. I’m simply pointing out that this is a ludicrous situation, and the only rational approach is to stop digging.

tom dunne wrote:

The simple fact of the matter is the the public transport infrastructure is light years behind a modern, developed country. For a good percentage of workers, it isn't an option for getting to work.

There, of course, we agree. What seems to cause the difficulty is moving beyond that opening statement to what I see as the fairly obvious conclusions as to where that takes us.

markpb

tom dunne wrote:

The bottom line in this country is that people buy houses based on affordability. Fact. Proximity to anything is irrelevant (schools, shops, public transport). If the only house you can afford is in Kinnegad, or Kells, or Avoca, or Duleek, then you are going to buy there.

Public transport does not factor high in the priority list of people buying houses. Besides, there are many professions where public transport is just not suited - those in the building trade, for example, who move from site to site over the course of a year.

To put it bluntly, people who buy houses or apartments without giving consideration to facilities have only themselves to blame. If you buy a house that forces you to drive to work, school and shops, or rules you out of using public transport, you're only fooling yourself if you think you're saving money. How much does a car cost? How much if you include petrol, tax, insurance, wear and tear, parking and your time if you're looking for parking or stuck in traffic?

Yes there are some valid reasons for why we ended up in this mess (poor tenant protection laws and a poor public transport network being the main two) but if you want to be honest, too many people were swept up in the 'must buy a big house with a big garden' mentality and, like you said, gave scant regard to anything else.

dodgyme

Schuhart wrote:

land beside Confey station ... to put more parking there. My view would be why not put more housing there? Why the mindset that people should drive to the station.

and then everyone who lives in these houses would be complaining because of the people parking there to get the train which is what is happening now. I do understand your point but I think with the massive shortfall in public transport in Ireland, and the lack of density in population patterns, decent park and rides might be the best option. It will get people out of there cars for most of the journey. i personally think feeder buses is the way forward for our pattern. Do you understand me?

markpb

dodgyme wrote:

and then everyone who lives in these houses would be complaining because of the people parking there to get the train which is what is happening now. I do understand your point but I think with the massive shortfall in public transport in Ireland, and the lack of density in population patterns, decent park and rides might be the best option. It will get people out of there cars for most of the journey. i personally think feeder buses is the way forward for our pattern. Do you understand me?

But that just propagates the problem, shouldn't we be trying to solve it? Feeder buses will only work if the councils make them work. They need roads wide enough for bus lanes, bus priority measures at junctions, etc. FCC in particular have been spectacularly bad at that. There's nothing worse than a bad feeder bus, people would rather drive.

Why not do one of the much vaunted public-private partnerships and have the government build a huge multi-storey underground car park for commuters and let a developer built apartments on top of that. Best of both worlds.

Schuhart

markpb wrote:

too many people were swept up in the 'must buy a big house with a big garden' mentality and, like you said, gave scant regard to anything else.

On that note, anecdotaly, I've noticed an amount of people locally sell up their modest semi-d close to all amenities, to build/buy their pile a few miles into the countryside and then report they spend their lives in the car. In fact, this knowledge is so widespread I can't actually understand why it still goes on.

I don't want to convict everyone on the basis of such anecdotal evidence. But I think this matter of 'affordability' is sometimes a smokescreen for people just making poor personal decisions. In fairness, if you browse myhome.ie, it looks like you don't really save money by buying a pile in the countryside - you just get a bigger house.

Schuhart

dodgyme wrote:

Do you understand me?

I understand you, but I think what you are saying is basically 'keep digging'. That doesn't strike me as a sensible solution. as markpb says, shouldn't we be trying to solve the problem?

dodgyme

markpb wrote:

But that just propagates the problem, shouldn't we be trying to solve it? Feeder buses will only work if the councils make them work..

yes Feeder buses will only work if the councils make them work
I worked on building sites in Germany (city same size as dublin) and we would move all over the place to get to work. In the city you'd use the U-bahn and for say an equivalent of Navan (somewhere anywhere within about 1 hr of the city) youd get a train and a feeder bus would be there to meet it and you get to within 5 minutes of the building site at worst.

The housing patterns along the latter example were the same as in ireland. Generally lowish density and a few apartment blocks, same as the newbridges, navan etc. However it worked there fine and I can testify to this because of the feeder buses which suited the housing pattern and workers like me and I never needed a car. It should be the same in ireland.

In ireland to blame people when they cant get anywhere with comments like they "should have known better when buying in navan" is an insult to their intellegence. They didnt have much of a choice, planning in this country makes it like this, none of us who bought in the last ten years have had a reasonable choice in the property feeding frenzy that went on. What are you suppose to do, completely put you life on hold. We would all love to live beside a station but can't. Perhaps the solution is obvious, more stations and more feeder buses.

Schuhart

dodgyme wrote:

I worked on building sites in Germany (city same size as dublin) and we would move all over the place to get to work. In the city you'd use the U-bahn and for say an equivalent of Navan (somewhere anywhere within about 1 hr of the city) youd get a train and a feeder bus would be there to meet it and you get to within 5 minutes of the building site at worst.

If the location is Munich, then we can indeed only weep at the thought of their 6 underground lines and 8? suburban rail lines for much the same population as Dublin. When you consider the way some of the ‘Save the West’ types go on about the laying to 2 disconnected tram lines as if Luas was an unreasonably generous investment you really have to wonder. At the same time, I think you do have to wonder how some of the low density housing that’s gone up in recent years can ever be served by public transport – even by feeder bus.

dodgyme wrote:

In ireland to blame people when they cant get anywhere with comments like they "should have known better when buying in navan" is an insult to their intellegence. They didnt have much of a choice, planning in this country makes it like this, none of us who bought in the last ten years have had a reasonable choice in the property feeding frenzy that went on. What are you suppose to do, completely put you life on hold.

As I’ve said, I’m not convicting everyone on the basis of just anecdotal evidence that I’ve personally noticed of people with a choice who really should know better moving to inconvenient locations. However, I think we also have to guard against overcorrection in the opposite direction. The ‘affordability’ mantra can be used too much.

I took a quick scan at Navan just now on myhome.ie. (I’m not singling out Navan – it’s just a location that’s cropped up and it could be anywhere). There seemed to be three bed semi-ds going for around €300,000, and bungalows going for €400,000 plus. For that kind of money it would certainly be possible to get a two bedroom terrace house in Ballyfermot, close to schools, within the M50 and maybe an hour’s walk from the GPO. And that’s just a quick scan of myhome.ie. The idea that the alternative to living in Navan is a life on hold just doesn’t stack up on that basis.

I’m not pretending that public transport is oh so brilliant, and I stress again that I totally accept what I’m saying is no use to someone with an awkward commuting journey today. I’m just pointing out that, as individuals, many of us do have options to improve our situation in the medium term but pass them by. In the longer term, we should really stop digging.

dam099

Schuhart wrote:

I took a quick scan at Navan just now on myhome.ie. (I’m not singling out Navan – it’s just a location that’s cropped up and it could be anywhere). There seemed to be three bed semi-ds going for around €300,000, and bungalows going for €400,000 plus. For that kind of money it would certainly be possible to get a two bedroom terrace house in Ballyfermot, close to schools, within the M50 and maybe an hour’s walk from the GPO. And that’s just a quick scan of myhome.ie. The idea that the alternative to living in Navan is a life on hold just doesn’t stack up on that basis.

If you have a couple of kids a 2 bed terrace is not going to be much use to you. Part of the problem is the serious lack of family oriented apartments in Dublin i.e. a spacious 3 or more bedroom apartment. It seems in most developments that get approved you get mostly 1 and 2 bedroom apartments with a few 3 beds marketed as penthouses (and priced at a premium).

Schuhart

dam099 wrote:

If you have a couple of kids a 2 bed terrace is not going to be much use to you.

As I said, it was a quick look in the context of the alternative being what another poster described as a ‘life on hold’.

Another quick look yields a three bed for €300k in Ballyfermot, within the M50 and FWIW up the road from Clondalkin railway station. And this, you will understand, is far from exhausting the options available.

There simply are options available that don’t involve spending €300k on a three bed semi in Navan, or (probably more to the point) €420k on a bungalow outside Navan.

dam099 wrote:

Part of the problem is the serious lack of family oriented apartments in Dublin i.e. a spacious 3 or more bedroom apartment. It seems in most developments that get approved you get mostly 1 and 2 bedroom apartments with a few 3 beds marketed as penthouses (and priced at a premium).

I think you're right there, and that possibly reflects the demand in the market for 'investments' - i.e. building apartments that no-one is actually going to live in but are purchased in the expectation of a speculative gain.

dodgyme

Schuhart wrote:

When you consider the way some of the ‘Save the West’ types go on about the laying to 2 disconnected tram lines as if Luas was an unreasonably generous investment you really have to wonder..

I agree that is stupid, however from other post on this forum you swear the people in the west had no right to ask for anything while Dublin is in the mess it is in. Anyhow this is covered elsewhere in the transport forum. I see what you are saying though.

Schuhart wrote:

At the same time, I think you do have to wonder how some of the low density housing that’s gone up in recent years can ever be served by public transport – even by feeder bus.

Feeder buses are a good option and hoover up passengers for the trains. I mean one imp type bus could take the demand potential for 30+ cars from parking at a station.

Schuhart wrote:

As I’ve said, I’m not convicting everyone on the basis of just anecdotal evidence that I’ve personally noticed of people with a choice who really should know better moving to inconvenient locations.
.

There are always greedy people in society and ireland is in the mess it is because of this. Most cases these people dont need to use public transport.

Schuhart wrote:

I took a quick scan at Navan just now on myhome.ie...

Alright compare navan to Dublin 15 and North county dublin, where all the new houses are. At least in navan your children might be able to attend school. In most parts of D15 there is no schools, terrible bus service , nothing and this is within the metro area of dublin. ?? Also Navan to me looks like a more stable environment to have kids grow up in. Half of all the new estates in north and west dublin are to renters who really dont care about the area. Ya it is close to the city but you dont get the benfit of this (2hours it can take for the 39 to get into town from ongar??)



I’m not pretending that public transport is oh so brilliant, and I stress again that I totally accept what I’m saying is no use to someone with an awkward commuting journey today. I’m just pointing out that, as individuals, many of us do have options to improve our situation in the medium term but pass them by. In the longer term, we should really stop digging.[/QUOTE]

Schuhart

dodgyme wrote:

I agree that is stupid, however from other post on this forum you swear the people in the west had no right to ask for anything while Dublin is in the mess it is in. Anyhow this is covered elsewhere in the transport forum. I see what you are saying though.

Indeed, but just in passing I think the feeling is not so much that the West has no right to ask for anything, and more that the West gets quite a reasonable shake out of public funds and that, specifically, the West on Track campaign is for the birds.

dodgyme wrote:

Feeder buses are a good option and hoover up passengers for the trains. I mean one imp type bus could take the demand potential for 30+ cars from parking at a station.

If it works, fine. I'd nearly say the proof of the pudding is in the eating - it sounds like the kind of thing that could be tested out fairly easily by just hiring a bus and putting it out there.

dodgyme wrote:

Alright compare navan to Dublin 15 and North county dublin, where all the new houses are. At least in navan your children might be able to attend school. In most parts of D15 there is no schools, terrible bus service , nothing and this is within the metro area of dublin. ?? Also Navan to me looks like a more stable environment to have kids grow up in. Half of all the new estates in north and west dublin are to renters who really dont care about the area. Ya it is close to the city but you dont get the benfit of this (2hours it can take for the 39 to get into town from ongar??)

Bear in mind the three parts to what I'm saying.
a) None of this is of any help to someone with an awkward commute tomorrow.
b) In the medium term, individuals could find homes within the M50 if they really wanted. What we're seeing is not 'life on hold or else' - its a judgement that they don't want to live in the areas in Dublin that they can afford to live in.
c) In the long term, we'd really want to just do stuff so that people don't need to go 30 miles away to live, and particularly not off into the countryside, as its really not necessary.

In that context, you are absolutely right to raise the question of why so many Dublin housing developments went ahead without much thought about transport and other services. I mean, in this situation remoteness is hardly an issue (although Ballyfermot is a lot closer to the city than 'Ongar'. Ongarians are quite a recent addition to the city).

I'm glad you at least touched on the question people having this perception that they just don't want to live in the parts of the city that they can afford. This is probably quite an important factor, and I think its been sort of bubbling away out of sight. This ditches this whole mantra of 'affordability' being the sole factor. You'll understand, if we deem areas of the city of the 'unstable' it tends to turn into a self fufilling prophecy should we actually act to facilitate people moving to the far reaches. If, on the other hand, we simply sit back and let peoples pockets drive them to buy closer to the city, the problem pretty much cures itself.

I think the bottom line is clear. The decision to move thirty miles away is a choice, not a necessity, and cheap housing options are available within the M50 - no single individual has to choose between Navan and Ongar.

dodgyme

Schuhart wrote:

I'm glad you at least touched on the question people having this perception that they just don't want to live in the parts of the city that they can afford. .

Ok yes you are right, so what is the choice
sh8tty area with good transport
nice area with sh8tty transport.
why should this be the only choices?

Schuhart wrote:

I think the bottom line is clear. The decision to move thirty miles away is a choice, not a necessity.

So what stay in a crap area, oh that will be a great life.

Schuhart wrote:

cheap housing options are available within the M50 - no single individual has to choose between Navan and Ongar.

You are digging a hole here methinks. When you get to a certain age you want to buy a house and you buy a house where they are being built, navan, ongar, north dublin. I know alot of people that bought in navan because houses closer to town were not being built at the time.

Schuhart

dodgyme wrote:

Ok yes you are right, so what is the choice
sh8tty area with good transport
nice area with sh8tty transport.
why should this be the only choices?

I'm glad we've moved away from the idea that this is about affordability. The reason we have an issue is because many cringe at the prospect of giving their address as Ballyfermot. However, your blanket dismissal of the options out there is superficial.

dodgyme wrote:

You are digging a hole here methinks. When you get to a certain age you want to buy a house and you buy a house where they are being built, navan, ongar, north dublin. I know alot of people that bought in navan because houses closer to town were not being built at the time.

You'll understand, what I'm saying is not so much about what people do as what they could be doing. A brief search suggests that value is available in the second hand market. I haven't seen any substantial comment contradicting that. Now, clearly if everyone turns up looking for houses in Ballyfermot, then prices will rise. But my point is that situation does not exist today - an individual could pick up good value if that's what they want. Or they can move 30 miles away and complain about their commuting problem. But its a choice, and not a choice particularly about affordability.

But, taking it back to the thread title, the value to be had in the second hand market within the M50 suggests that nobody thinks about public transport in this country. Or schools or shops or access to health services ....

OTK

Back to the original question about Park and Ride in Enfield. Meath county council has made it a policy objective of its latest county development plan

To facilitate the provision of park and ride facilities at Dunboyne rail station, Pace Interchange, Enfield, Laytown, Gormanston and the reservation of adequate lands to provide for park and ride facilities at Navan and Bettystown. In the event of further growth in the south Drogheda Area, the Council will explore the need for park and ride facilities and the reservation of land for this purpose as appropriate.

Doesn't mean they're going to do it.

Also they have a zoning map for Enfield that specifies park and ride zoning around the station. I can't see who would pay for a park and ride facility. Maybe Irish Rail would with their subvention money or from passenger revenues. I'd prefer if they developed the land around the station for terraced urban housing but the council prefers people to live in suburban housing estates outside villages like Ballivor and Longwood.

So it seems that somebody has at least thought about parking facilities at Enfield.

dowlingm

The problem with feeder buses is this:

If IE wants feed to its service, it can't run its own buses - CIE has BE and DB to do that. So therefore if BE and DB can't be @rsed, it won't happen. The problem is that BE and DB are also competitors to IE. This is also putting local authorities under the thumb of central government who can interfere with CIE's priorities - but that's not much of a problem for the LAs since it means they don't have to pay.

What's required is for passengers to force the local authority to agree a schedule with IE and for them to tender for an operator to run the service under an agreed fare and PSO subsidy (say 75:25). It probably won't be integrated fares but given CIE's current structure that's how it has to be.

As I have probably mentioned before, GO Transit in Ontario uses buses from smaller regions to feed its rail services, and as a proving ground for rail extensions where track alignments exist

dodgyme

dowlingm wrote:

The problem with feeder buses is this (etc etc etc)

Always a major problem in this country getting the simpliest thing done. I am not knocking your point here dowlingme but for god sake, a few buses at a few stations to bring passengers to get to work and reduce traffic at the stations and parking etc etc. Sure its like the foot bridge in Clonsilla, other countries have built bridges to join their country to other countries, we cant go from one side of a fecking canal to the other??????????????.

I can see me watching "mega-feat of engineering" on the discovery channel and the presenter saying " On this episode - how the boston tunnel was built, How Hong Kong built an airport on an island after building the island and linked it with 120km speed underground to the city centre, And exclusively in part two how the irish have nearly completed the planning and objections phase to put a sh!tty rope bridge in place on a sh!tty road over a sh!tty canal in sh!tty dublin15 so more people dont nearly get knocked down every morning And next week how they plan to run a bus from one place maybe to another"

Victor

homeOwner wrote:

We dont have it any better in dublin, in fact you could say its worse. To park at the luas station is €4 for 24 hours (or €2 for 4 hours), so anyone who parks at the luas station for their daily commute to avoid driving on into town has to pay €20 per week on top of their luas fare. Its ridiculous. I thought the whole idea of park and ride to get to work was that it was a viable alternative to driving into town. The sensible thing to do would be to have parking free for people with commuter tickets (ie weekly, monthly, yearly) and people doing once off or occasional trips should have to pay.

Certainly on the Green Line, the fee to to dissuade people not using Luas from parking in Luas car parks.

AlekSmart

Its very illustrative as this thread develops to witness just how much the Private Car features.

Things are now so bad that even vast improvements to Public Transport are now checkmated by the inability of potential PT Users to park their cars as close as possible to the station/stop.

One doesnt even need to leave the City Centre to witness the witless.
All over An Lar the City Council relentelessly prioritizes Private Pay and Display parking spaces,taking particular joy in arranging these in such manner as to cause MAXIMUM disruption and inconvienence to PT Users and Operators.

City Managers,Directors of Traffic,Quality Bus Network Managers et al have come and gone to greater things, their passing is not even marked by the disappearance of one single obstructive Car Space.

You people talk about Bridges and "Facilities "...not until somebody reduces Civic Offices to a steaming Pile of Rubble and allows some sanity to prevail !!! :eek:

"Would YOU give these people €36 Billion to spend on ANYTHING ? "

Schuhart

AlekSmart wrote:

Things are now so bad that even vast improvements to Public Transport are now checkmated by the inability of potential PT Users to park their cars as close as possible to the station/stop.

There’s an article here by Frank McDonald on Dublin’s urban sprawl. There’s nothing really new in it – the concerns will be well known to many here. I’m just posting it as a good summary of the issue.

I think the significance of this is that we have to get the private car out of our thinking. It’s just unsustainable, and planning on the basis that it is utterly reasonable for significant numbers of people to drive to a rail station strikes me as the wrong approach. It’s almost underwriting the decision to move 30 miles or further away into a one-off house in the countryside for fear of having to give your address as Ballyfermot. The social and environmental costs of this are know and, again, I’ll only offer the McDonald article as a quick summary of things we already know.

I don’t know if there’s any conscious thought in the decisions not to provide much car parking. It may well be just the usual black hole argument as to what public authority should take responsibility for doing it – IE or the local authority. But I have to admit I’m not unhappy at the outcome. It looks to me like provision for private cars can only add to our problems.

The solution is developing housing within walking distance of facilities, and negate the need for cars. In other words, let’s stop digging.

mackerski

Victor wrote:

Certainly on the Green Line, the fee to to dissuade people not using Luas from parking in Luas car parks.

That can be sorted - leave the fee in place, but have an much smaller "upgrade charge" applicable to Luas tickets (or weekly tickets at least) that would include fare and P+R.

AlekSmart

Nice post Schuhart.

Mr Mac`s article contains two very apposite descriptions,the first is the use of the term "Delinquent" to describe then Environment Minister Martin Cullen`s decision to sit on his hands over Wexford Co Co`s destruction of Gorey rezoning scam.

Frank is also on the ball in his description of the Dublin Transport Authority as being a mere "bureaucratic creature" of the Dept of Transport,something which has also been guided by the less than lively hand of the same gent,Minister for Transport this time...Martin Cullen.

Given that the Working Party report on the Implimentation strategy for the DTA expressly opened with a demand for Land Use/Strategy powers it was VERY illuminating to witness how Minister (for Transport) Cullen began his acceptance speech by VERY firmly refuting the working party`s first and most important recommendation.

And why would any Minister of the Oireachtas take such a negative stance on a high-profile and deeply researched request from a VERY high level working party ?
Does anybody believe Martin when he sez it was "to uphold confidence in Local Administrative democratic process" ?

Who Knows....but I am of a mind to consider Judge McCracken`s (?) advice to his Tribunals Counsel......."Follow the paper trail..."

Frank Mac D has quite astutely spotted that without the Land Use and Planning powers the DTA is basically a VERY lame duck...and if it does`nt look like a Duck or quack like a Duck...then,a cheann comhairle......It ain`t a Duck at all !! :mad:

D'Peoples Voice

homeOwner wrote:

We dont have it any better in dublin, in fact you could say its worse. To park at the luas station is €4 for 24 hours (or €2 for 4 hours), so anyone who parks at the luas station for their daily commute to avoid driving on into town has to pay €20 per week on top of their luas fare. Its ridiculous.

I would have thought that a political party in opposition for 5 years would have come up with a BETTER solution.
When McGreevy brought in FULL tax relief on public transport tickets, there was no park 'n' ride. Now that there is Park 'n' ride, it should follow that Park 'n' Ride tickets should be tax deductible also. So for example, when you are buying your annual ticket, you also buy a annual parking ticket, and claim both of them back against your tax at your marginal rate.
But do you think the ALTERNATIVE government would suggest this! No- I ask you - is there any choice for whom to vote, except
http:\\www.johnbracken.ie - with hair like that ....