Erm....Squats anyone?

cunnins4

Hi guys, just a couple of questions about squats:

I've read here a good few times that these are good for developing core muscles? I'm in my second season of triathlons, and developing a strong core is pretty essential for all of it (especially the swim) so i'm trying to work hard on that.

I tried some light squats in the gym last night, but i could only feel them working my thighs, that and the bar hurting my shoulders. What is the correct form for performing them? How low to go, orientation of my legs, angle of my back etc...

I was pretty cautious since it was my first ever time doing them and didn't wanna hurt myself, but any advice would be appreciated.

I used to always do lunges at home with a set of dumbells and always found these to be a great way of strengthening my thighs, but if i could strenghten my core while working my legs that'd be pretty cool!

Cheers lads.

Smellyirishman

Great page, all you need to know about the squat.

cunnins4

Smellyirishman wrote:

Great page, all you need to know about the squat.

Nice one.

Superdub2

very interesting....... im a big fan of squats and wqould agree hands down with most of that article, however from what ive heard in numerous sources squatting below a sitting position is bad for your knees and that you should only squat to a sitting position... anybody care to comment??

olaola

Yeah - looks good.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone go that low! I would usually go to 90 deg.
Is that enough?

Hanley

Superdub2 wrote:

very interesting....... im a big fan of squats and wqould agree hands down with most of that article, however from what ive heard in numerous sources squatting below a sitting position is bad for your knees and that you should only squat to a sitting position.

Absolutely not!!

If anything squatting high and not getting a full range of motion is more damaging to your knees.

When you squat high (<90 degrees) the majority of the reversal force is going to go thru your knees a produce a horrendus sheering effect.

When you sit in the bottom position, with your hips below your knees, there's a tremendous stretch thru your hamstrings, this opposing forces keeps your knees in the optimal healthy position and the force is distributed thru the muscles and not the joints and ligaments etc....

Same goes for the knees going in front of your toes argument, this really isn't a problem provided that your hips are dropping below your knees.

There's a lot of people out there who think they've a great squat (because they're squatting high) and others who think they've perfect form (because they're going "deep" ie they're leaning way forward so it feels like they're going deeper, whn in reality theyre barely hitting parrallel.

Don't be one of those people.

Smellyirishman

Hanley wrote:

...and others who think they've perfect form (because they're going "deep" ie they're leaning way forward so it feels like they're going deeper, whn in reality theyre barely hitting parrallel.

Don't be one of those people.

Yeah, this is something I want to get checked some time. I think my form is decent on my squats, but I can't get as low as the pics in my first post, not sure if it's hip flexibility or what (I'm 6'2", not sure how much of an effect this has), and I do occasionally suffer from the "squat-come-good-morning" problem when I start to tire.

Problem is, I never see anyone squatting so can't really ask them for advice and the PTs in the gyms ain't great.

brianthebard

I'm similar sim, have you tried front squats? I can get a lot lower with them and don't lean forward as much. I've almost given up on the back squat at this stage, although a part of me still wants to get it right.

Smellyirishman

I haven't no, but I really should. I gave them a go a while ago, but didn't really feel comfortable with my scrawny arms/shoulders trying to support the bar and felt off balance. I guess it's just a case of practicing though, maybe on Monday.

davyjose

Hanley wrote:

ie they're leaning way forward so it feels like they're going deeper, whn in reality theyre barely hitting parrallel.

Don't be one of those people.

Hanley, sometimes I find I feel like I'm going to topple backwards if I squat low, I think maybe that is why a lot of people don't squat deep enough. Do you ever find this yourself?

Hanley

davyjose wrote:

Hanley, sometimes I find I feel like I'm going to topple backwards if I squat low, I think maybe that is why a lot of people don't squat deep enough. Do you ever find this yourself?

I've only ever ONCE lost a squat backwards in my life actually. It's not something I struggle with. I can see why it would happen tho, I know I said not to lean TOO far forward, but if there isn't some degree of forward lean then the bar's gonna get behind your centre of gravity and next thing you know you're on your ars€ with a bar coming towards you...

SIM, The reason she looks so low in that pic is because she has such long femurs, and thus the hips can drop lower because of this. Also ther's not much mass there so her hams and calves don't prevent her from having to stop a bit higher.

Smellyirishman

Hanley wrote:

SIM, The reason she looks so low in that pic is because she has such long femurs, and thus the hips can drop lower because of this. Also ther's not much mass there so her hams and calves don't prevent her from having to stop a bit higher.

Cheers, that makes me feel a little better although I still need to get someone to have a look at my form, just to be sure!

Hanley

Smellyirishman wrote:

Cheers, that makes me feel a little better although I still need to get someone to have a look at my form, just to be sure!

Just get a vid next time you're squatting and stick it up.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Superdub2

also in relation to squatting low, in the pictures in the link the lady has her knees turned outward and not straighting, i have always tried to keep my knees relatively straight facing and this is another issue that can affect how low you go. any benefits to doing it one way or the other??

tribulus

Hehe if you get 3 whites you went too low, wasn't that it?

If you work hard at the squat and get confident in it, it really is one of the best exercises around.
When I finish a tough set, everything hurts, really, everything, it's hard to replicate it.

So stick at them, i've nothing against front squats - they're great too but don't neglect back squats 'cus they're tough, I don't think anyone gets them right for a while, I'm still improving!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

tribulus

Superdub2 wrote:

also in relation to squatting low, in the pictures in the link the lady has her knees turned outward and not straighting, i have always tried to keep my knees relatively straight facing and this is another issue that can affect how low you go. any benefits to doing it one way or the other??

You should make a conscious effort to force your knees out, letting them cave in is not good. Forcing them out recruits your glutes/abductors more strongly and can be the difference from missing a lift or not.

Smellyirishman

tribulus wrote:

You should make a conscious effort to force your knees out, letting them cave in is not good.

I always though the idea was to keep knees and the movement of the knee in line with your feet?

tribulus

It is but often people tend to let their knees cave when they drive up, if this isn't a problem then good but if not really focusing on forcing them out (they won't actually go out but will stay in line) can prevent this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUu6dt6vWDk

Watch this guy squat, in particular watch his knees.

Hanley

Superdub2 wrote:

also in relation to squatting low, in the pictures in the link the lady has her knees turned outward and not straighting, i have always tried to keep my knees relatively straight facing and this is another issue that can affect how low you go. any benefits to doing it one way or the other??

Your knees should track your toes.

Squatting low with you feet facing straight on is very hard on the hips (and tbh i find it VERY hard on the knees too). Angling the toes out go some way to resolving this.

Hanley

Smellyirishman wrote:

I always though the idea was to keep knees and the movement of the knee in line with your feet?

You are, but even when making the effort to push them out they'll never really go outside your feet. It'll just help prevent your knees from caving.

Smellyirishman

Yeah, I guess that's true. I can definitely go as low as the chap in the video anyway. I find that too wide a stance tends to work my groin a little more than I would like.

Hanley

Smellyirishman wrote:

Yeah, I guess that's true. I can definitely go as low as the chap in the video anyway. I find that too wide a stance tends to work my groin a little more than I would like.

Uhhhh.... that's where you should be aiming for, so thumbs up there!

You're probably jsut not flexible enough in the hips to go that wide.

This pic's a bit hard to see, but basically this is something that's gonna help increase your flexability http://www.exrx.net/Store/OtherImages/StartingStrengthSquatPoster3.jpg

You're looking at the very top right pic, the guys in the bottom position of a squat with his elbows against his knees forcing them out. This will give you a HUGE stretch thre your groin.

I sometimes find I get the same problem as you if I don't stretch out and warm up enough.

EDITED: added content

Smellyirishman

Yeah, I stretch beforehand already incorporating that stretch (and do warm-up sets before that gets put out there!).

I might get a video next week if I can, even to have a look at myself (vanity :cool: ).

Hanley

Smellyirishman wrote:

even to have a look at myself (vanity :cool: ).

You've no idea how many problems I've fixed on myself thru vid replays... it really helps to see where you're goign wrong.

Smellyirishman

Ah yeah I know, I was only kidding. Hopefully I can get a decent vantage point in the gym.

davyjose

Hanley wrote:

Angling the toes out go some way to resolving this.

A guy came up to me at my gym and told me angling my toes out put strain on my lower back. Was this bad advice. Since then i've been keeping my feet as straight as possible (and it hasn't fel 100% right)

Smellyirishman

Definitely bad advice IMO. Although as you can see, I am no expert.

Hanley

davyjose wrote:

A guy came up to me at my gym and told me angling my toes out put strain on my lower back. Was this bad advice. Since then i've been keeping my feet as straight as possible (and it hasn't fel 100% right)

I'm gonna call BS on that one... I've never even heard that before. Obviously I'm not talking about toe WAY out. Just between 30-45 degrees.

davyjose

Hmm, yeah ... that's what he told me. I'll go back to the old way so. Cheers.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

davyjose

he said he played Rugby as a prop, and he noticed the difference in the scrum. Anyway, it was probably just his personal technique that needed changing.
I'm only squatting lightly at the moment, as I have recently just recovered from ankle ligament damage, so I wanna get my technique spot on, now I'm effectively starting again.

jester77

Drive up through your heels. If the weight is not on your heels and you find yourself lifing through the front of your feet then you are leaning too far forward. Practice with just the bar for a while until you get your technique perfected. I read an excellent article somewhere on form, think it was t-nation. Will have a look and see if I can find it.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459389

Hanley

davyjose wrote:

he said he played Rugby as a prop, and he noticed the difference in the scrum.

Was he telling you how to squat based on how one would scrum???????


Jester, great article.

davyjose

Perhaps, to be honest I can't really remember; just realised that at the time I was squatting in a Smith Machine - perhaps that makes a difference?

tribulus

davyjose wrote:

Perhaps, to be honest I can't really remember; just realised that at the time I was squatting in a Smith Machine - perhaps that makes a difference?

Yes, free standing squats are far superior.

Hanley

davyjose wrote:

Perhaps, to be honest I can't really remember; just realised that at the time I was squatting in a Smith Machine - perhaps that makes a difference?

Ohhh.. yeah, they're 2 completly different exercises.

Transform

The squat (as i learned from going to see Charles Poliquin) can be used as an assessment tool to check where and what you need to work on

e.g. if one of your knees is buckling in, say right knee, as you come from the bottom it is likely you need to work on adductors/vmo on that side.

or

If you are bowing forwards as you squat your erectors need work - massage and strengthening

or

Can squat below 90 degrees - piriformis too tight and possibly psoas also.

So overall the squat can tell you alot about where you have problems and if you do not sort them out before you build up your weight then squatting will only worsen those problems.

Finally in the pic from the sumptous website the lady has fantastic flexibility so much easier to get all the way down. Heels on plates can also help with tight ankles and calves but are of no use if you are showing problems in other areas.

Hanley

Transform wrote:

Guys you are all completely missing the point in regards to squats.

The squat (as i learned from going to see Charles Poliquin) can be used as an assessment tool to check where and what you need to work on



If you are bowing forwards as you squat your erectors need work - massage and strengthening

I don't really agree with this. I thought the squat was a leg exercise, not an assesment tool.

And I also wouldn't really agree that if you're going forwards then your erectors need work.

At least in my experience goign forward's caused by 3 things;
1) bad form
2) weak core
3) weaker legs than erectors (hence the hips shoot up and you GM the weight up cos the erectors are strong enough to do this, but the legs aren't).

Whatcha think?

Transform

1- what is bad form exactly? How is it caused?

2- Agreed but when you get someone to do a squat with no weight and no bar then a weak core does not come into it

3 - can also be caused by ankle and calf tightness and again refer back to point 2

All i know is that i can now get more people squatting safely as a result of a sqaut assessment and through working on single leg movements so they can squat properly as its such an important exercise

Hanley

Transform wrote:

1- what is bad form exactly? How is it caused?

2- Agreed but when you get someone to do a squat with no weight and no bar then a weak core does not come into it

3 - can also be caused by ankle and calf tightness and again refer back to point 2

All i know is that i can now get more people squatting safely as a result of a sqaut assessment and through working on single leg movements so they can squat properly as its such an important exercise

I didn't realise you were takling about GETTING someone to sqaut. I thought you meant fixing problems when people are using weight.

1) Bad form = leading up with your hips rising faster than your shoulders. Ideally leading out of the hole with your chest and head means you won't be in danger of losing the bar forward at any stage.

2) miscommunication!!

3) Agreed

Transform

The squat assessment can be used with someone who is currently squatting and bad form can be all of the aformentioned problems when sqautting.

Overall most people do not squat because they are soft and do not want to get in under the bar and work their ass off.

I learned to squat by using the 20 rep method recommended by hardgainer and built up to 250lbs when i was 24years old and it really helped develop my grit and determination.

However i squat better now as a result of knowing what to look for and where i need to get massaged and where i need to strengthen

cunnins4

davyjose wrote:

Perhaps, to be honest I can't really remember; just realised that at the time I was squatting in a Smith Machine - perhaps that makes a difference?

What's a smith machine?

cunnins4

Never mind, googled it, duh!:o

(100th post, hoorah!)

Smellyirishman

OK, I have been humming and hawing about this all week, but here it is, my squat. Hopefully either I or someone else learns something from it, it's certainly not an impressive feat atm. Feel free to ask any questions.

Squat.

PS. I'm all too aware of how much I need to eat.

Hanley

Smellyirishman wrote:

Squat.

How do you expect us to critque a video we can't watch??

You need to set it to public.

Smellyirishman

Dur!

Forgot I had switched that when I was setting up the comments bit. Fire away.

Dr4gul4

Hanley will go to town on you but he does give good advice.

From what i've noticed, you're lower back is curved out, it should be curved in to stop you hurting you're self.

/me waits 4 hanley now

Hanley

Good stuff.

First things first, ditch the shoes and get something with a harder sole to squat in if you can. As you progress up in weight the soles of those shoes are gonna get really squidgy, I know they're good for running, but less than optimal for squatting.

Get the box in the squat rack out of the way. Why is it there?? You need to be able to get your hips under the bar and stand straight up with it to unrack it when the bar starts to get heavy or it's just gonna pull you forward and make your chest drop.

Also, with the unrack, I count 9 foot movements I think. It's just wasted enegy. No more than 4, a step back with each foot and an adjustment if needed (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL_dl4w52XM)

Now... onto the lift it self...

It's actually pretty good. Just a few things I picked up on;

-You're breaking at your knees first which is pushing them way forward. Again, watch the vid i linked above, the first movement comes from the hips breaking and "sitting back" (like you would onto the toilet) as the knees are forced out.

-You're dropping too fast. I used to dive-bomb like you, but found it was hard to keep good position on it. Some guys can get away with it but they generally have cores made out of solid granite and have years of experience (look at the top oly lifters for this!). I think you should slow it down a bit. Not super slow, just more controlled.

-You're going TOO deep, which is probably why you're back's rounding out. Looking at the vid it gets worse and worse as you go deeper. Just a bit below parrallel is sufficinet imo.

-I tell this to pretty much EVERYONE I see squat, but it's worth saying again, you need to force your elbows forward. As if you're trying to rotate them forward of the bar. It'll cause alot of stress on the shoulders at first so take it easy and don't push it too hard. The reason for doing it is it'll pop your chest up and keep your upper bakc arched which without fail leads to better squatting.

Some points to consider... hope they help.

Btw, as a final point; If you want to squat more, then squat more. Nothing'll help you more than that.

Smellyirishman

New shoes, OK, i'll have a look. Any links for an idea of what to go for? I have fallen arches and wear insets but should be able to do without for squats.

Yeah, I'll move the box.

Less steps, gotcha.

Breaking at the knees first, not totally sure what you mean by this, certainly doesn't sound good though .

Slow down, keep it controlled, gotcha.

Going too low? Never heard that before, but if it's screwing with the back then I'll stop a little shallower.

Pushing the elbows forward, that sounds good, I will definitly be keeping an eye on that.

Thanks for the advice, will try to put it into practice tomorrow.