Erm....Squats anyone?

cunnins4

Hi guys, just a couple of questions about squats:

I've read here a good few times that these are good for developing core muscles? I'm in my second season of triathlons, and developing a strong core is pretty essential for all of it (especially the swim) so i'm trying to work hard on that.

I tried some light squats in the gym last night, but i could only feel them working my thighs, that and the bar hurting my shoulders. What is the correct form for performing them? How low to go, orientation of my legs, angle of my back etc...

I was pretty cautious since it was my first ever time doing them and didn't wanna hurt myself, but any advice would be appreciated.

I used to always do lunges at home with a set of dumbells and always found these to be a great way of strengthening my thighs, but if i could strenghten my core while working my legs that'd be pretty cool!

Cheers lads.

Smellyirishman

Great page, all you need to know about the squat.

cunnins4

Smellyirishman wrote:

Great page, all you need to know about the squat.

Nice one.

Superdub2

very interesting....... im a big fan of squats and wqould agree hands down with most of that article, however from what ive heard in numerous sources squatting below a sitting position is bad for your knees and that you should only squat to a sitting position... anybody care to comment??

olaola

Yeah - looks good.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone go that low! I would usually go to 90 deg.
Is that enough?

Hanley

Superdub2 wrote:

very interesting....... im a big fan of squats and wqould agree hands down with most of that article, however from what ive heard in numerous sources squatting below a sitting position is bad for your knees and that you should only squat to a sitting position.

Absolutely not!!

If anything squatting high and not getting a full range of motion is more damaging to your knees.

When you squat high (<90 degrees) the majority of the reversal force is going to go thru your knees a produce a horrendus sheering effect.

When you sit in the bottom position, with your hips below your knees, there's a tremendous stretch thru your hamstrings, this opposing forces keeps your knees in the optimal healthy position and the force is distributed thru the muscles and not the joints and ligaments etc....

Same goes for the knees going in front of your toes argument, this really isn't a problem provided that your hips are dropping below your knees.

There's a lot of people out there who think they've a great squat (because they're squatting high) and others who think they've perfect form (because they're going "deep" ie they're leaning way forward so it feels like they're going deeper, whn in reality theyre barely hitting parrallel.

Don't be one of those people.

Smellyirishman

Hanley wrote:

...and others who think they've perfect form (because they're going "deep" ie they're leaning way forward so it feels like they're going deeper, whn in reality theyre barely hitting parrallel.

Don't be one of those people.

Yeah, this is something I want to get checked some time. I think my form is decent on my squats, but I can't get as low as the pics in my first post, not sure if it's hip flexibility or what (I'm 6'2", not sure how much of an effect this has), and I do occasionally suffer from the "squat-come-good-morning" problem when I start to tire.

Problem is, I never see anyone squatting so can't really ask them for advice and the PTs in the gyms ain't great.

brianthebard

I'm similar sim, have you tried front squats? I can get a lot lower with them and don't lean forward as much. I've almost given up on the back squat at this stage, although a part of me still wants to get it right.

Smellyirishman

I haven't no, but I really should. I gave them a go a while ago, but didn't really feel comfortable with my scrawny arms/shoulders trying to support the bar and felt off balance. I guess it's just a case of practicing though, maybe on Monday.

davyjose

Hanley wrote:

ie they're leaning way forward so it feels like they're going deeper, whn in reality theyre barely hitting parrallel.

Don't be one of those people.

Hanley, sometimes I find I feel like I'm going to topple backwards if I squat low, I think maybe that is why a lot of people don't squat deep enough. Do you ever find this yourself?

Hanley

davyjose wrote:

Hanley, sometimes I find I feel like I'm going to topple backwards if I squat low, I think maybe that is why a lot of people don't squat deep enough. Do you ever find this yourself?

I've only ever ONCE lost a squat backwards in my life actually. It's not something I struggle with. I can see why it would happen tho, I know I said not to lean TOO far forward, but if there isn't some degree of forward lean then the bar's gonna get behind your centre of gravity and next thing you know you're on your ars€ with a bar coming towards you...

SIM, The reason she looks so low in that pic is because she has such long femurs, and thus the hips can drop lower because of this. Also ther's not much mass there so her hams and calves don't prevent her from having to stop a bit higher.

Smellyirishman

Hanley wrote:

SIM, The reason she looks so low in that pic is because she has such long femurs, and thus the hips can drop lower because of this. Also ther's not much mass there so her hams and calves don't prevent her from having to stop a bit higher.

Cheers, that makes me feel a little better although I still need to get someone to have a look at my form, just to be sure!

Hanley

Smellyirishman wrote:

Cheers, that makes me feel a little better although I still need to get someone to have a look at my form, just to be sure!

Just get a vid next time you're squatting and stick it up.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Superdub2

also in relation to squatting low, in the pictures in the link the lady has her knees turned outward and not straighting, i have always tried to keep my knees relatively straight facing and this is another issue that can affect how low you go. any benefits to doing it one way or the other??

tribulus

Hehe if you get 3 whites you went too low, wasn't that it?

If you work hard at the squat and get confident in it, it really is one of the best exercises around.
When I finish a tough set, everything hurts, really, everything, it's hard to replicate it.

So stick at them, i've nothing against front squats - they're great too but don't neglect back squats 'cus they're tough, I don't think anyone gets them right for a while, I'm still improving!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

tribulus

Superdub2 wrote:

also in relation to squatting low, in the pictures in the link the lady has her knees turned outward and not straighting, i have always tried to keep my knees relatively straight facing and this is another issue that can affect how low you go. any benefits to doing it one way or the other??

You should make a conscious effort to force your knees out, letting them cave in is not good. Forcing them out recruits your glutes/abductors more strongly and can be the difference from missing a lift or not.

Smellyirishman

tribulus wrote:

You should make a conscious effort to force your knees out, letting them cave in is not good.

I always though the idea was to keep knees and the movement of the knee in line with your feet?

tribulus

It is but often people tend to let their knees cave when they drive up, if this isn't a problem then good but if not really focusing on forcing them out (they won't actually go out but will stay in line) can prevent this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUu6dt6vWDk

Watch this guy squat, in particular watch his knees.

Hanley

Superdub2 wrote:

also in relation to squatting low, in the pictures in the link the lady has her knees turned outward and not straighting, i have always tried to keep my knees relatively straight facing and this is another issue that can affect how low you go. any benefits to doing it one way or the other??

Your knees should track your toes.

Squatting low with you feet facing straight on is very hard on the hips (and tbh i find it VERY hard on the knees too). Angling the toes out go some way to resolving this.

Hanley

Smellyirishman wrote:

I always though the idea was to keep knees and the movement of the knee in line with your feet?

You are, but even when making the effort to push them out they'll never really go outside your feet. It'll just help prevent your knees from caving.

Smellyirishman

Yeah, I guess that's true. I can definitely go as low as the chap in the video anyway. I find that too wide a stance tends to work my groin a little more than I would like.

Hanley

Smellyirishman wrote:

Yeah, I guess that's true. I can definitely go as low as the chap in the video anyway. I find that too wide a stance tends to work my groin a little more than I would like.

Uhhhh.... that's where you should be aiming for, so thumbs up there!

You're probably jsut not flexible enough in the hips to go that wide.

This pic's a bit hard to see, but basically this is something that's gonna help increase your flexability http://www.exrx.net/Store/OtherImages/StartingStrengthSquatPoster3.jpg

You're looking at the very top right pic, the guys in the bottom position of a squat with his elbows against his knees forcing them out. This will give you a HUGE stretch thre your groin.

I sometimes find I get the same problem as you if I don't stretch out and warm up enough.

EDITED: added content

Smellyirishman

Yeah, I stretch beforehand already incorporating that stretch (and do warm-up sets before that gets put out there!).

I might get a video next week if I can, even to have a look at myself (vanity :cool: ).

Hanley

Smellyirishman wrote:

even to have a look at myself (vanity :cool: ).

You've no idea how many problems I've fixed on myself thru vid replays... it really helps to see where you're goign wrong.

Smellyirishman

Ah yeah I know, I was only kidding. Hopefully I can get a decent vantage point in the gym.

davyjose

Hanley wrote:

Angling the toes out go some way to resolving this.

A guy came up to me at my gym and told me angling my toes out put strain on my lower back. Was this bad advice. Since then i've been keeping my feet as straight as possible (and it hasn't fel 100% right)

Smellyirishman

Definitely bad advice IMO. Although as you can see, I am no expert.

Hanley

davyjose wrote:

A guy came up to me at my gym and told me angling my toes out put strain on my lower back. Was this bad advice. Since then i've been keeping my feet as straight as possible (and it hasn't fel 100% right)

I'm gonna call BS on that one... I've never even heard that before. Obviously I'm not talking about toe WAY out. Just between 30-45 degrees.

davyjose

Hmm, yeah ... that's what he told me. I'll go back to the old way so. Cheers.