How important is a radon barrier?

outsidethe65

Hi all,

I recently inherited an old house and I am looking into revonating it. There was no radon barrier in the house. How important is it to have one? Will it be a big/ expensive job to put one in? I live in west cork.

Any advise?

Cheers,
Ted.

muffler

Details here

twenty8

outsidethe65 wrote:

Hi all,

I recently inherited an old house and I am looking into revonating it. There was no radon barrier in the house. How important is it to have one? Will it be a big/ expensive job to put one in? I live in west cork.

Any advise?

Cheers,
Ted.

Honestly - unless you have a trained radon barrier fitter I would skip it. A lot of radon barriers are not installed properly. When you have completed your home make sure that you put radon detectors in - that way you can be sure if you have radon or not. If you have you will have to activate your sumps etc. Talk to the RPII about that.

anthony55

Do the Radon test first before you start the renovation if possible, as you can factor in the costs of the potential remedy you may have to employ. Depending on the test result you might want to fit a sump, it may be better to do this rather than fitting a barrier to an existing structure, due to all the difficulties ensuring a good seal.

twenty8

anthony55 wrote:

Do the Radon test first before you start the renovation if possible, as you can factor in the costs of the potential remedy you may have to employ. Depending on the test result you might want to fit a sump, it may be better to do this rather than fitting a barrier to an existing structure, due to all the difficulties ensuring a good seal.

Sorry - but there is actually no point in doing a radon test before you start construction. You have no idea what you might disturb when you renovate and therefore any test could be invalid. I suggest that you put the sump in anyway - you will never know it is there unless you need it.

Tor

as an aside, we live in an old house now renovated - the living room where one of the testers was situated is in the 'old' block & concrete part of the house and the second tester was in our bedroom, in the totally new timber framed part of the house.

The reading for the living room was 99 and only 34 for the bedroom.
(still well under the levels thankfully)

AidoCQS

As I understand it RADON Barriers, sump's & pipes are purely preventitive. You may never need them. The problem is that you wont figure that out untill the house is built and at that point remediation is very cost prohibitive.

paulocon

http://selfbuildinireland.com/article.php?category=Radon

arghh

I installed radon barrier and sump underneath the slab but between installing the steel and leveling etc there was alot of holes in the radon barrier. It could not be saved however one tried to do it. It is a flaw in the way houses are constructed. Another point (I am not suggesting not to install radon barrier) would gas like water want the easier way to exit and when it hits the concrete slab would go out through the soil instead of trying to penetrate concrete, just a thought.

twenty8

arghh wrote:

I installed radon barrier and sump underneath the slab but between installing the steel and leveling etc there was alot of holes in the radon barrier. It could not be saved however one tried to do it. It is a flaw in the way houses are constructed. Another point (I am not suggesting not to install radon barrier) would gas like water want the easier way to exit and when it hits the concrete slab would go out through the soil instead of trying to penetrate concrete, just a thought.

No - not really. You have to remember that the gas is far smaller than the spaces in the concrete. So it is not very difficult for it to permeate throught the slab. Also - there are numerous cracks etc in the slab and it is not very difficult for the radon to get through it.

However - the idea of comparing gas to water is very good if you want to wonder why a very small hole in the radon barrier can render a barrier useless. With even the tiniest tear all the gas can come though straight into the home.

Viking House

Isn't there an additive available that you mix with concrete to make it Radon proof. If you are renovating you will probably be considering replacing the floor to put in extra insulation.

De_man

Viking House wrote:

Isn't there an additive available that you mix with concrete to make it Radon proof. If you are renovating you will probably be considering replacing the floor to put in extra insulation.

Viking house 100% the site is www.radonseal.com, i've used it to go with my heavy duty (red tyvek) barrier and 2 sumps (with motors just in case)

radioactiveman

Hi
my parents live in a house that had no radon barrier installed when we built it and that had quite a bad radon problem (the levels were around the 800 mark which is dangerous). Basically we installed a plastic barrier but it didn't come up and over the walls - so the gas was collecting in the foundations of the house and then rising up through the small gap between the plastic and the walls.
We got rid of it by installing a fan on the outside of the house linked up to vents to extract the gas. It was a firm in wexford that supplied us the equipment. I think it didn't cost any more than 500 euros.
Don't know if this applies to you but if you plan it out you can sort it out fairly economically. We got the levels down to about 10 anyway;)

Viking House

Try using 4 preforated drainage pipes (under Radon proof concrete) meeting at the centre of the house at a cross. Connect this to a rising vent pipe on the North side (least used) of the house with a low voltage ventilation motor in the stack.
If you bring moist summer air in under your floor it is important that your Radon barrier is at the warm side of your floor insulation to avoid condensation.

ardara1

outsidethe65 wrote:

Hi all,

I recently inherited an old house and I am looking into revonating it. There was no radon barrier in the house. How important is it to have one? Will it be a big/ expensive job to put one in? I live in west cork.

Any advise?

Cheers,
Ted.

1994 - The Radon thing was just kick off I had a meeting with the main guy in Building Control NI that was researching and monitoring radon in buildings - quote (as I remember it) 'There are more people die in Ireland every year form Radon than die from fire'. Going by this I'd say it's pretty important.
As for VH suggestion that you add an admix to your floor screed/slab - NI Building sontrol want the Radon barrier laid over the floor - thru the wall structure with a reinforced screed supported by the wall - other wise the floor settles and rips the radon barrier. - I'd be very awre if it especially of you are in an area of granite geology.

Viking House

Hi Adara

How do you propose putting a Radon barrier under the walls of the existing house?

Timistry

they are rubbish. Impossible to get them completely sealed. If you live in an area with granite i would look in to it though as these are high risk areas

smashey

Jesus, digging up old threads. Generally, this is frowned upon here unless the OP has something to add.

You're new so I'll let you off with it. Just take this as a nudge in the right direction.

sinnerboy

Timistry wrote: »

they are rubbish. Impossible to get them completely sealed. If you live in an area with granite i would look in to it though as these are high risk areas

They are a requiremnt of the building regualtions - together with sumps and vents - no matter where you are in ROI

With appropriate care they can be sealed

muffler

Timistry wrote: »

they are rubbish. Impossible to get them completely sealed. If you live in an area with granite i would look in to it though as these are high risk areas

What exactly is your point?

Mellor

Timistry wrote: »

they are rubbish. Impossible to get them completely sealed. If you live in an area with granite i would look in to it though as these are high risk areas

Silly post, saying they are rubbish is pointless.
It is true that they are often ripped an torn by careless builders. But they shouldn't be,
regardless of this, the rips let in some radon, no barrier lets in much more.

Then is no such thing a low radon area.

Villain

Mellor wrote: »

Then is no such thing a low radon area.

Well there is really:

http://www.alpharadon.ie/graphics/radon_map.gif

pete6296

In relation to the map which i am sure was taken from RPII website, no area is Radon free, whether the levels be high or low. Experimentally, there is no exact way of measurement due to changeable environmental conditions eg. whether a window is opened or closed.

Villain wrote: »

Well there is really:

http://www.alpharadon.ie/graphics/radon_map.gif

Villain

I never said anywhere was radon free but Mellor said "There is no such thing a low radon area" when obviously there is low area's.

sinnerboy

The barrier is required to ALL parts . Irrespective of the radon map .

Villain

Indeed it is but those in a high risk area should ensure it is installed correctly and not damaged, they should also ensure the quality of the radon barrier is good enough.

pete6296

Anyone installing Radon Barrier regardless of area should ensure it is installed correctly, one cannot define a high risk area without valid experimental results to prove it.

Villain wrote: »

Indeed it is but those in a high risk area should ensure it is installed correctly and not damaged, they should also ensure the quality of the radon barrier is good enough.

muffler

Villain wrote: »

Well there is really:

http://www.alpharadon.ie/graphics/radon_map.gif

That was a map that was used a number of years ago when people could decide if they were indeed in a high risk area and needed to install, membrane, sump etc.

Thats all changed now. The entire country is treated the same in relation to taking preventative steps against radon entering a building. So there are no "low" or "high" areas any more in this regard.

sydthebeat

sinnerboy wrote: »

The barrier is required to ALL parts . Irrespective of the radon map .

have the regs changed?

whilst i agree its best practice, i dont think it is actually a legal necessity in areas of less than 10% detection.

2.10 Dwellings or other long-stay residential
buildings

(a) High Radon Areas: measures should be
taken to protect the building from Radon in
the ground. For example, in the case of a noncomplex
building of normal design and
construction, a fully sealed membrane of low
permeability over the entire footprint of the
building and a potential means of extracting
Radon from the substructure such as a
standby Radon sump or sumps with
connecting pipework or other appropriate
certified systems should be provided.
(b) Areas other than High Radon Areas: the
building should be provided with a potential
means of extracting Radon from the
substructure should that prove necessary after
construction. For example, in the case of a
non-complex building of normal design and
construction, the provision of a standby Radon
sump or sumps with connecting pipework or
other appropriate certified systems should be

adequate.

Villain

muffler wrote: »

That was a map that was used a number of years ago when people could decide if they were indeed in a high risk area and needed to install, membrane, sump etc.

Thats all changed now. The entire country is treated the same in relation to taking preventative steps against radon entering a building. So there are no "low" or "high" areas any more in this regard.

I believe you are wrong actually, the measures taken in relation to radon depend on the level in the area.

sinnerboy

Villain wrote: »

I believe you are wrong actually, the measures taken in relation to radon depend on the level in the area.

You cant measure radon penetration untill after the building is constructed . An attempt to measure radon levels on a green field is pointless .

Imagine finding out after the event that you actually do need a barrier after all ?

Very foolish to try to "get away" with this one

sydthebeat

villain is correct as far as my info goes.

Whilst it should be best practice to specify and ensure a radon barrier is included in all builds, its not legally required in areas shown to have a detection rate of less than 10%.

Villain

You'd swear the map was drawn up by a 10 year old, have a read of http://www.rpii.ie/radon/building.html they have maps for each county which give more detail. The map is the result of techinal analysis.

Yes I will be putting in a radon barrier with sump in my house, the fact I was trying to point out is that that what Mellor said was incorrect, there is areas with low levels.

Mellor

Villain, If you are going to respond to somebody in a disagreable fashion, you'd better make sure you know what you are talking about, or are at least correct.

I wouldn't make such a statement if I wasn't sure I was right. There are is not a single area in the country classed as a low radon area. The RPII refer to some areas as high radon areas but also make sure to not use the term low radon radon area, as it is misleading.

Villain wrote: »

Well there is really:

http://www.alpharadon.ie/graphics/radon_map.gif

Firstly, if you were familar with this map you would know that it does not show the amount of radon in a paticular area. It is precentage of homes in each area found to be above the reference level (200 Bequerels/cubic metre). It is radon in dwellings, not the bedrock! (the big bold title should of given this away)

Obviously there will be a link between the amount of homes above the reference level and the radon levels of the area. But the age of the home and construction of the home will also affect it, and area with newer houses will measure better than older houses, in the radon levels are the same.

The amount of houses in each grid will also affect the accuracy of the estimate (it is only an prediction of number of affected houses in an area).
For example, dublin has had c.2000 surveys carried out, but Monaghan has only had 230, both counties are a similar size, but the accuracy is going to be different.

I choose a midlands county at random, Offaly.


Now, obviously the levels of radon will vary from area to area, but it is highly unlikely that adjoining areas vary by so much. You cam see an area of the highest level recorded in houses almost surrounded by the lowest level. This is more likely varience than huge difference in levels, there is likely some difference in reading, but not a 2000% increase.
Similarly, an area of the lowest surrounded my the highest readings two grids deep in Roscommon is also likely survey varience.

Villain wrote: »

I never said anywhere was radon free but Mellor said "There is no such thing a low radon area" when obviously there is low area's.

As I said, the RPII refer to area as high radon areas, but they specificly do not refer to low radon areas. Instead these are refered to area other than high areas.

I wouldn't said it if I didn't know what I was talking about

Villain

I do know what I'm talking about the building regulations state excatly what I am talking about.

The building regulations provide for different requirments based on the level.

Mellor

sydthebeat wrote: »

villain is correct as far as my info goes.

Whilst it should be best practice to specify and ensure a radon barrier is included in all builds, its not legally required in areas shown to have a detection rate of less than 10%.

The fact is some areas of 100 sq.km have as few are 10 dwelling surveyed,
No houses means 0%, 1 house means 10% and 2 houses mean 20%,
so all it takes is 1 house that is maybe a few years old to competely change the reading and the measures taken.
1 house and it changes for a low-radon area to a high radon area. 1 house is nothing

What if you are in one of these areas, and its <1%, so you start building without a radon barrier. Before you finish a house is founf above 200 Beq, suddenly you are in a 10% area and need a radon barrier, the map is a guide and can easily change.

Villain wrote: »

You'd swear the map was drawn up by a 10 year old, have a read of http://www.rpii.ie/radon/building.html they have maps for each county which give more detail. The map is the result of techinal analysis.

Those maps are no more detailed, its the same info at a different scale. 100sq.km is the same no matter what the scale.

Yes I will be putting in a radon barrier with sump in my house, the fact I was trying to point out is that that what Mellor said was incorrect, there is areas with low levels.

There are no areas designated low radon areas, RPII do this for a reason.
There are high areas, and the rest of the country.
The map does not show the levels of radon in an area.

Mellor

Villain wrote: »

I do know what I'm talking about the building regulations state excatly what I am talking about.

The building regulations provide for different requirments based on the level.

I am aware that the requirements are different based on high areas or not, where did I say different.
I said there was no such thing as a low area,

Some me where the building regs refers to low radon area.



Edit: Read my last three posts, they pretty much sum it up. I stand by my statement that no area is designated a low radon area.
If you are in a area other than a high radon area you don't need a radon barrier. You do however need a DPM, the difference between the two is marginal.

sinnerboy

"High Radon Area" means a Radiological Institute of Ireland prediction that more than 10% of houses in area will experience high radon levels

Low radon area are actual termed "Areas other than High radon areas"

Radon sumps and vents are required to all areas

Mellor is correct . Low radon area is a total misnomer - the term does not exist - in the regulations

So - who would seriously NOT upgrade a DPM ( which you must provide anyhow ) to a radon barrier - even in an Area other than High radon area

What would you save ? What would you risk ?

Mellor

As an additional final point,
some countries measure and quantify radon maps based not on levels in homes and on actual bedrock radioactive gas levels. In this case the area can be designated high medium or low areas as the actual area was measured.

In ireland the houses were measured, so it is purposely not used.

pete6296

I agree with Mellor 100%, there is no such thing as a low level of Radon. 200 is the figure we can all quote, but below this level we cannot say the Radon level is low. What are the deterministic effects of the levels we quote, its not known but i would always feel more comfortable with a well installed Radon Barrier and down the road to perform a Radon measurement.
The case in Cork that was in the press was not detected by RPII, it was an independent test, the RPII will admit they are under resourced and the map is only a tiny percentage of the inhabitable house in Ireland which is well outdated.
Pete

Villain

My point was not all areas are the same and building regulations allow for such, putting in a radon barrier makes sense but the fact is there is low and high areas of risk so as I said if you are in a high area I would put extra effort into ensuring that the radon barrier is properly installed.

sinnerboy

Villain wrote: »

My point was not all areas are the same and building regulations allow for such, putting in a radon barrier makes sense but the fact is there is low and high areas of risk so as I said if you are in a high area I would put extra effort into ensuring that the radon barrier is properly installed.

..... and less of on effort elsewhere ?

i don't see the point of this hairsplitting Villain

ALL works should be "properly installed"

It is a HUGE mistake to interpret the building regulations in the way you appear to .

To all who are still persrervering with this thread - INSTALL A RADON BARRIER

pete6296

But the map supplied is nearly outdated by now, no one can define low and high risk so i think any radon barrier installed is done professionally. I personally put down mine and i will personally check my radon level when house is complete with a radon detector i have.

Villain wrote: »

My point was not all areas are the same and building regulations allow for such, putting in a radon barrier makes sense but the fact is there is low and high areas of risk so as I said if you are in a high area I would put extra effort into ensuring that the radon barrier is properly installed.

Villain

Quick story for you, my uncle block layed my footings and said he had done a house recently for a guy who was going direct labour but had no knowledge of the building industry. The uncle asked who was doing his radon barrier and he said the person who was doing the ground work, the uncle said he had seen this on a few sites he had done lately where the persons doing the groundwork did the radon barrier he warned him to get it done by someone who was more qualified and experienced to do it as he was in a high radon area in south carlow.

The guy let the grounds work fella do it and the uncle saw and said it wasn't lapped properly it was strained at the side at a slant meaning it would either tear or pull in when concrete was poured. The point I was pointing out is he especially should have got it right as he is in a high risk area.

Telling everyone to put in a radon barrier is great advice, my point is have a look at the map and if you are in a high risk pay extra attention and get someone expierenced to do it even if it costs a few more Euro's. Its not hard to do it properly.

pete6296

I agree to install it correctly but don't do it by looking at a map, do it all the time.....

Villain wrote: »

Quick story for you, my uncle block layed my footings and said he had done a house recently for a guy who was going direct labour but had no knowledge of the building industry. The uncle asked who was doing his radon barrier and he said the person who was doing the ground work, the uncle said he had seen this on a few sites he had done lately where the persons doing the groundwork did the radon barrier he warned him to get it done by someone who was more qualified and experienced to do it as he was in a high radon area in south carlow.

The guy let the grounds work fella do it and the uncle saw and said it wasn't lapped properly it was strained at the side at a slant meaning it would either tear or pull in when concrete was poured. The point I was pointing out is he especially should have got it right as he is in a high risk area.

Telling everyone to put in a radon barrier is great advice, my point is have a look at the map and if you are in a high risk pay extra attention and get someone expierenced to do it even if it costs a few more Euro's. Its not hard to do it properly.

Villain

Well the building reg's say you don't even need to put in a radon barrier below floor if your in a low (non high) risk area so maybe thats why some people don't give it proper consideration. It should probably be updated.

pete6296

To conclude, it should be updated.

Villain wrote: »

Well the building reg's say you don't even need to put in a radon barrier below floor if your in a low (non high) risk area so maybe thats why some people don't give it proper consideration. It should probably be updated.

sydthebeat

its should be a matter of course for anyone specifying or constructing a dwelling to properly install a certified radon barrier.

however, if i am certifying a build and the builder / client insists on not installing one, i cannot state that it is against the building regs if its in one of those low risk areas from the map. I have to sign it off...... thats villains point and one in which he is correct. Everyone agrees that this is an incorrect situation but as of today, it has not been updated.

Mellor

Villain wrote: »

My point was not all areas are the same and building regulations allow for such, putting in a radon barrier makes sense but the fact is there is low and high areas of risk so as I said if you are in a high area I would put extra effort into ensuring that the radon barrier is properly installed.

sydthebeat wrote: »

its should be a matter of course for anyone specifying or constructing a dwelling to properly install a certified radon barrier.

however, if i am certifying a build and the builder / client insists on not installing one, i cannot state that it is against the building regs if its in one of those low risk areas from the map. I have to sign it off...... thats villains point and one in which he is correct. Everyone agrees that this is an incorrect situation but as of today, it has not been updated.

Firstly, I didn't say that this wasn't the case.
I was well aware that the building regs in their current format allow for a RB to be omitted. I never disputed this being allowed (I wouldn't recommend it though). What I did dispute, however, was Villian "correcting" me when I said there are no low radon areas. In this instance he was most definatly wrong.

Whatever about storys of incorrectly laid RBs in high radon areas. Thats ignoring the original point. They are valid in the sense that they highlght why you should inspect this stage very carefully, but have nothing t do with the original point. Being the suggestion that the map shows low radon areas.


Out of interest, it has been mentioned that the reference level is 200 Beq (above this the dwelling is counted towards percentage of the area). So a high radon area might have 20% of dwellings above 200 Beq. And some of the better areas might has <5% above 200 Beq.

The national average is about 89 Beq, so any could have every dwelling at or above a level twice the national average, and still be marked at <1%. This is why it is not a low radon area, as the reference level is still reletively high.
If you live your whole live in a dwelling at the reference level, you have a 1 in 50 chance of lung cancer (if you don't smoke). At thats the acceptable level.

Villain

Mellor wrote: »

What I did dispute, however, was Villian "correcting" me when I said there are no low radon areas. In this instance he was most definatly wrong.

Your being Pedantic but I can be too.

From

A survey carried out by Dr. J.R McLaughlin of University College Dublin of a random sample of approximately 1300 houses in the State shows a median level of indoor radon of about 35 Bq/m3 throughout the country. However, levels in excess of 400 Bq/m3 were found in 1.5% of cases with individual peaks rising as high as 1700 Bq/m3. Most of these were located in counties Clare, Galway, Mayo and Cork, but even in these counties the vast majority of the sample houses had low radon levels.

Taken from ENFO.ie

ircoha

sydthebeat wrote: »

its should be a matter of course for anyone specifying or constructing a dwelling to properly install a certified radon barrier.

however, if i am certifying a build and the builder / client insists on not installing one, i cannot state that it is against the building regs if its in one of those low risk areas from the map. I have to sign it off...... thats villains point and one in which he is correct. Everyone agrees that this is an incorrect situation but as of today, it has not been updated.

I cannot say I share this view because it focusses on a rules-based system as opposed to a principles based system.

I will not certify a build in a non-high radon area that does not have a RB properly fitted in place as well as the sumps etc because there is an obvious omission in the regs based on a principles based perspective.