Racism and the Travelling Community

Dontico

Gopher;
Note there is difference between, causing crime, being convicted of a crime, and running away and not being able to be convicted.

nobodythere

DublinWriter wrote:

I remember Des Keogh really nailed it when he said "cross them and they will kill you, but do them a favour and they will kill for you"…and it's very true.

So either way...



I've never had a positive encounter with a *grown* traveller.

I had a 4 year old traveller come at me with a knife outside the halting site. I mean what am I supposed to do, kick him in the face? That'd be the last of me

That's just depressing, something gone wrong from the very beginning

Catari Jaguar

For all you pro-traveller people spouting out about how wonderful they are, how many of you go down to the local halting site to associate with them regularly?

GuanYin

Lil Kitten wrote:

For all you pro-traveller people spouting out about how wonderful they are, how many of you go down to the local halting site to associate with them regularly?

Whats your point?

Do you go hang out in the local poor neighbourhoods? If not, do you hate poor people?

InFront

Lil Kitten wrote:

For all you pro-traveller people spouting out about how wonderful they are, how many of you go down to the local halting site to associate with them regularly?

Who here said they were wonderful? Personally I have about as much interest in traveller culture as I have in South African ceramic artwork (i.e. none).

I have about as much interest in proclaiming that travellers are great as saying that Australians are alcoholics and Americans are fat; it's the fact that some people accept this sort of generalisation and see nothing wrong with it that confuses me.

OHP

I did not read all this thread. But can I just say that Irish people in general are not racists. But a lot of us are against Spongers. What I mean by that is that we normally accept people from all walks of life for who they are. But we make acceptation for those people that just come here and take us for all we have and give nothing back. No matter what colour or what race they are. Irish People are the friendliest people in the world. It has been proven time and time again. At the end of the day we are all human and all we want to do is get on with our lives. But if my neighbour next door steals something from me and I caught him/her at it. I call him/her a stealing ba*tA*d all he or she will do is argued back at me. But if my neighbour next door happens to be a Traveller, Black, or whatever. He or she will call me a racist! You try that in any other country but Ireland and see how far you get.

OHP

OMcGovern

OHP wrote:

Irish People are the friendliest people in the world. It has been proven time and time again.

Where has that been proven ?
I don't think the Bord Failte website is admissable evidence.
I'd be very surprised, and quite honestly disappointed, if Irish people are the friendliest people in the world. Certainly in cities and built-up areas, people are quite impersonal. And I have heard it said, that the Irish are superficially friendly, but rarely let people into their "inner circle" of friends as such.
I can kind of see their point.

On the subject of travellers, I've had my share of bad experiences with them... robbed once, attempted robbery, and a road rage incident.
In fact, on Friday after work, I'd a beautiful start to a long weekend.
Walking down near Liffey Street, I passed by 2 travellers families who were standing beside their 2 clamped cars, arguing about who should've stayed with the cars.... I had to cough to mask the laughter.

If a middle class family had an accent you couldn't understand, and they turned their property into an unofficial dumping site, you wouldn't want welcome them into your daily life either.

Tha Gopher

psi wrote:

Whats your point?

Do you go hang out in the local poor neighbourhoods? If not, do you hate poor people?

Eh, well yes? I have friends who live in areas that you might deem poor (used to live in a rough spot myself). Id visit regularly. You know how I know them? Because Ive grown to associate with them via meeting them in work, college etc. You dont find many travellers in work/college, so where in the hell can you get aquainted.

I notice the most vocal pro voices in the thread have went silent since the comparison to traveller incarceration and the population of Cork was highlighted. Im not suprised :rolleyes:

simu

Tha Gopher wrote:

I notice the most vocal pro voices in the thread have went silent since the comparison to traveller incarceration and the population of Cork was highlighted. Im not suprised :rolleyes:

Because it doesn't matter. The legal system applies to individual criminals, not the social groups they come from.

GuanYin

Tha Gopher wrote:

Eh, well yes? I have friends who live in areas that you might deem poor (used to live in a rough spot myself). Id visit regularly. You know how I know them? Because Ive grown to associate with them via meeting them in work, college etc. You dont find many travellers in work/college, so where in the hell can you get aquainted.

Well that's quite a different phenomenon to what the person I was replying to was implying.

You know people who might be deemed "socially disadvantaged", you accept them for the people they are and see past social prejudices that other people, who perhaps wouldn't find any way to associate with people outside their own peer group, don't see past.

To some people your friends are much the same as travellers. Does that make one of you right and the other wrong?

No, it's merely that circumstantially you have had an opportunity to expand your horizons that has allowed you to drop 1 prejudice. You sem to be holding on to another prejudice for the exact opposite reason.

I notice the most vocal pro voices in the thread have went silent since the comparison to traveller incarceration and the population of Cork was highlighted. Im not suprised :rolleyes:

As simu said, it's not like with like.

OHP

Why do ye do this? If a Garda, a soldier, a solicitor, a plumber, a taxi driver, a un- married mom, a teenager, a priest, and a doctor. Whoever! Does anything wrong. Everyone automatically segregates them and everyone automatically sorts them into groups. Everyone should not be tarred with the same brush. And everyone is an individual. If a person committed a crime, then THEY should be on trial. Not there whole community. Not all tinkers, not all Garda, not all plumbers, not all priests etc. are responsible for one or more person’s actions. It is like saying Dublin is the biggest DUMP in Ireland and everyone that lives in Ireland is responsible for it.

CreepingDeath

OHP wrote:

Everyone should not be tarred with the same brush. And everyone is an individual.

Yeah, I agree.
I'm sure there's some very polite drug dealers and thieves out there, who are good to their mothers, and always stop their car to let old people cross the road. The "ordinary decent criminals" of Ireland.
Let's not tar them with the same brush as the violent drug dealers and thieves.

mountainyman

I don't mind them. I worked in a Champion sports and they were in there all the time. They weren't any worse than anyone else.

I think alot of the dislike of them is resentment and envy.
By the way who decides who gets to be Traveller spokeperson.

MM

OHP

CreepingDeath wrote:

Yeah, I agree.
I'm sure there's some very polite drug dealers and thieves out there, who are good to their mothers, and always stop their car to let old people cross the road. The "ordinary decent criminals" of Ireland.
Let's not tar them with the same brush as the violent drug dealers and thieves.

Your just Nit-Picking now and trying to keep the argument going. So what class do I/we put you into and how many people can I/we blame? All I am going to say to you is this. Every person is an individual. And some of these individuals do the wrong thing. They might be part of a family, a group or whatever. But you cannot segregate one person and then place him/her into a group and then blame the whole group. If you commit a crime, is your whole family to blame? There are loads of people in Ireland that have friends, loved ones, family from all walks of life, in Jail. So are all these people that are related to or belonging to a group, in some way, to blame for his/her crime?

DublinWriter

OHP wrote:

Why do ye do this? If a Garda, a soldier, a solicitor, a plumber, a taxi driver, a un- married mom, a teenager, a priest, and a doctor. Whoever! Does anything wrong. Everyone automatically segregates them and everyone automatically sorts them into groups.

Didn't you get the memo that said Ireland is now an economy and not a nation anymore? It's called marketing demiographics.

CreepingDeath

OHP wrote:

...you cannot segregate one person and then place him/her into a group and then blame the whole group.

So, going by your logic... only a tiny fraction of sharks have ever attacked people. Does that mean that swimmers should treat each shark as an individual? Maybe reach out and show that it's an accepted member of the sea?

The truth of the matter is that "racism" is just another word for an unflattering stereotype of a group of people.
We have stereotypical views of travellers.
The concept of a stereotype is extremely useful in human society... it lets us vaguely predict the actions of people from other groups.
This is an essential skill for social interaction and sometimes even survival.

Drug addicts, angry protesters, rioters, streetgangs... they're all stereotypes... with associated bad traits.

Travellers have a well earned stereotype, and it's not a flattering one.
It's risk versus reward.... there's no reward in letting your guard down, and plenty of risk. In the course of my life, I've had 3 bad incidents (robbery, road rage) with travellers, and that doesn't include other anecdotes heard first-hand from friends.

Does it mean that "some" travellers are labelled unfairly.... yes.
Does it mean that I have to trust the majority of them..... no.

Racism in this case, is a quite valid self defense mechanism.

Tha Gopher

simu wrote:

Because it doesn't matter. The legal system applies to individual criminals, not the social groups they come from.

The question asked was basically why we dont all have a suspicious view of Cork people. The answer being that if they made up 80% plus of our prisoon population we most likely would think they were all a bit dodgy.

In an ideal world we could choose were our taxes are spent. The likes of Hobbes and company could allow their tax to fund traveller dole, child benefit for families that keep dropping kids for cash, the purchase of expensive land in Dublin to build halts (some case recently of something like 4 million worth of land bought to house 8 families. Disgraceful), incarceration/legal aid/general court costs, nuisance prosecutions of the likes of Padraig Nally (I wonder how much money the state spent on convicting and sending him to prison for sorting a problem that the justice system seemingly wanted nothing to do with), let the do gooders pay for all that. Put my money into roads, hospitals affordable hosuing costs i.e. helping WORKING people priced out of the market get a foot on the ladder. Some of the views expressed on this and other traveller threads disgust me beyond words tbh. Seems to be a load of rich kids with absoloutely no experience with the issue they are debating, and with total contempt for the working classes.

Hobbes

Tha Gopher wrote:

I notice the most vocal pro voices in the thread have went silent since the comparison to traveller incarceration and the population of Cork was highlighted. Im not suprised :rolleyes:

Actually I have you on ignore and I am only reading the posts now (as someone pointed me to it). I have you on ignore mainly because nearly all your posts go on about "Hobbes and co...", which your arguments are directed at me rather then debating the issue. Hence ignore.

So if I was "being quiet" it is because I hadn't read this thread since April as these threads tend to end up going the same way with the usual mis-informed BS.

Btw your still on ignore so don't expect a response to anything you say anytime soon.

wrote:

True it is like saying the Nazis were german ergo all germans at the time were nazis.

Which is exactly what is happening here. For example in the late 80's someone who lived in Darndale was considered a criminal. It didn't matter who they were or background, you were less likely to get a job if you lived in Darndale because of a small percentage of criminal element in Darndale. Similar in Coolock. I knew many people around that time that had to use other family member addresses when applying for jobs. They wouldn't even get a look in as the doors were already closed to them. Many of them would be on benefit as well because of this.

Maybe those with so many negative experiences should be asking themselves prehaps they are part of the reason.

Zombrex

Tha Gopher wrote:

You dont find many travellers in work/college, so where in the hell can you get aquainted.

Is that not the point?

You don't know enough travelers to form a proper opinion of them as a single group. The only time you would probably register even meeting a traveler is when one of them is doing something negative you would notice. Hence you will associated the ones you see doing these things with the whole.

The reality of course is that you have no idea how many of them are actually scumbags and how many aren't.

OHP

CreepingDeath wrote:

So, going by your logic... only a tiny fraction of sharks have ever attacked people. Does that mean that swimmers should treat each shark as an individual? Maybe reach out and show that it's an accepted member of the sea?

I do not have any logic to be honest. Just common sense. If you adopt a child say 4 or 5 months old from any race colour or walk of life. That child will adapt to your way of thinking, your way of life and your behaviour. And he or she will become a raciest, because of you and your influence on them. The simple fact is, everyone was born not so equal as others. but that does not make everyone unequal to everyone else. At the end of the day we are all human so if you’re going to tar anyone, then tar everyone. And sharks were here way longer than you were. You and I have taken taken their natural home from them, so it is natural they react, I honestly think this thread should die now.

OHP

OHP

Wicknight wrote:

Is that not the point?

You don't know enough travelers to form a proper opinion of them as a single group. The only time you would probably register even meeting a traveler is when one of them is doing something negative you would notice. Hence you will associated the ones you see doing these things with the whole.

The reality of course is that you have no idea how many of them are actually scumbags and how many aren't.

Really good point there. And I agree with you.

OHP

OHP

CreepingDeath wrote:

Racism in this case, is a quite valid self defense mechanism.

Enough said...

OHP

billy the squid

micmclo wrote:

Have you ever been called a "buffer"? I have.

Hmmm...., travellers calling a settled person a derogatory generic name that they can apply to all settled people. This must mean the travellers who called me a buffer are racists.

I assuming the posters know what a buffer is.

Being called a buffer isn't derogatory. It is simply cant for settled person.

billy the squid

CreepingDeath wrote:

So, going by your logic... only a tiny fraction of sharks have ever attacked people. Does that mean that swimmers should treat each shark as an individual? Maybe reach out and show that it's an accepted member of the sea?

Would you support the complete eradication of all sharks based on the fact that a few have attacked humans? Would you condone seking out hand destroying sharks, or would you only destroy the ones who posed a danger to humans?

Racism in this case, is a quite valid self defense mechanism.

White supremacists will say racism is a self-defence mechanism against the "negro" what is your point. Racism is Racism, it has no justification.

Tha Gopher

Hobbes wrote:

Actually I have you on ignore and I am only reading the posts now (as someone pointed me to it). I have you on ignore mainly because nearly all your posts go on about "Hobbes and co...", which your arguments are directed at me rather then debating the issue. Hence ignore.

So if I was "being quiet" it is because I hadn't read this thread since April as these threads tend to end up going the same way with the usual mis-informed BS.

Btw your still on ignore so don't expect a response to anything you say anytime soon.

And here was me thinking I was being ignored because I can counter pretty much any point you make. As said before, I find your opinions highly offensive to normal working class people and victims of traveller anti social behaviour. If you refuse to answer legitimate questions why bother taking part in the debate? "Im not talking to him, he wasnt nice to me".....Im not sure if its more funny or plain pathetic. Maybe you should put everyone on the thread with an opposing opinion on ignore, make it a lovely "the travellers, a grand bunch of lads" thread written by a group of people who largely have had zero contact with them.

Billy- is cant even a language? If it is, where can I learn it? Personally Ive never heard travellers speaking it. Ive heard them speak a thick form of English that is difficult to understand and has some slang I wouldnt get, but its more a dialect than a language far as Im aware. People from Cork speak with a thick accent and have local words. How come Corkonian isnt considered a language? And who decides what slang is derogatory? Buffer isnt offensive? Why is pikey offensive then? Or knacker? Is Pavee alright? Again, one rule for us, one for them.

Wicknight- the incarceration figures speak for themselves, end of. I took a quick flick through a book on some of Irelands most notorious young offenders the other day, probably about one in five case studies were traveller children. But hey, Im sure the author picked those five out of a pool of 50,000 ultra violent settled kids he could have studied, eh? This thread has not yet seen one decent argument against the majority of settled people being prejudiced against travellers. Figures show that they are far more likely to commit crime. How in the name of god can you counter this? Here is an honest question- if you were a taxi driver, would you run a group of 3 lads to Dunsink? Only last night in Tallaght some traveller drunk driver mowed down two tourists. As those of you who remember that poor kid almost killed by them in the car crash and later hounded out of the area its not the first, and probably wont be the last.

billy the squid

If you are looking for a linguaphone cassette on Cant I do not think you will find one. and just because there may not be an official written record of the language does not make it ilegitimate.

brianthebard

Tha Gopher wrote:

And here was me thinking I was being ignored because I can counter pretty much any point you make. As said before, I find your opinions highly offensive to normal working class people and victims of traveller anti social behaviour. If you refuse to answer legitimate questions why bother taking part in the debate? "Im not talking to him, he wasnt nice to me".....Im not sure if its more funny or plain pathetic. Maybe you should put everyone on the thread with an opposing opinion on ignore, make it a lovely "the travellers, a grand bunch of lads" thread written by a group of people who largely have had zero contact with them.

What makes you think you speak for the working classes? I happen to be both working class and not bigoted against travellers. *Shock* I've worked in shops where I served travellers on a daily basis. Some were pricks, most weren't. Again shock, they are people. I mean if you came into a business I worked in I'd probably think you were a complete assho!e, but I wouldn't suddenly start hating all internet users or settled people.

Hobbes

Tha Gopher wrote:

And here was me thinking I was being ignored because I can counter pretty much any point you make.

Nope just because all your arguments use me as an example. When you can actually formulate an argument without my nick showing up in the sentance or even inferring to me I might pay more attention to what you have to say.

If you refuse to answer legitimate questions

I think your confusing answering legitimate questions and "you".

Billy- is cant even a language? If it is, where can I learn it? Personally Ive never heard travellers speaking it.

Of course if you have never seen or heard it clearly it doesn't exist.

Even a casual research into it I have found it is in fact a recognized language with its own dialects. Cant is a dialect of the Shelta language.

As for where can you learn it.
http://www.rosettaproject.org/archive/sth/view?searchterm=Shelta
http://www.travellersrest.org/sheltanocant990418.htm
http://oldwelshbooks.net/macalisterras1937/

Clearly you took the time to research your question rather then just dismiss it without thinking.

Buffer isnt offensive? Why is pikey offensive then? Or knacker? Is Pavee alright? Again, one rule for us, one for them.

Buffer isn't offensive. Pikey is offensive as is Knacker (and is not traveler dialect as far as I can see).

I took a quick flick through a book on some of Irelands most notorious young offenders the other day, probably about one in five case studies were traveller children.

Whats the book called?

Tha Gopher

Hobbes wrote:

Nope just because all your arguments use me as an example. When you can actually formulate an argument without my nick showing up in the sentance or even inferring to me...........


Even a casual research into it I have found it is in fact a recognized language with its own dialects. Cant is a dialect of the Shelta language.

As for where can you learn it.
http://www.rosettaproject.org/archive/sth/view?searchterm=Shelta
http://www.travellersrest.org/sheltanocant990418.htm
http://oldwelshbooks.net/macalisterras1937/


Buffer isn't offensive. Pikey is offensive as is Knacker (and is not traveler dialect as far as I can see).



Whats the book called?

1- I dont pick on you, I highlight whoever I think has made the most ridiculous points in the thread. The "why dont we pre-judge Cork people" one having been the best so far.

2- How many people actually speak Shelta according to the census?

3- Who judged pikey/knacker offensive and buffer not? Did pikey only become bad after Snatch was released? From re reading the post it seems you are saying a slang term can only be used if the community itself came up with it to label themselves by. Surely by that logic, if the settled community never referred to themselves as buffers and it was a traveller word for us, then yes, it is offensive?

4- Minor Offences I think was the name of it. Should be in the true crime section of your local Easons.

Brian- good for you, however I think you would agree you are probably in the minority. As pretty much every traveller bar one Ive met has been aggressive, dodgy, or plain rude, and that includes my time in the service sector (the ones in your shop were good. The ones in the takeaway I worked in treated staff like a butler, flicking their fingers for attention, "you there boy!" being a more common attention grabber than "excuse me" or "sorry mate", never with a word of thanks). When working people see them getting payouts for pub admission discrimination and other nonsense we get pretty sick of paying our taxes.

brianthebard

Tha Gopher wrote:

Brian- good for you, however I think you would agree you are probably in the minority. As pretty much every traveller bar one Ive met has been aggressive, dodgy, or plain rude, and that includes my time in the service sector (the ones in your shop were good. The ones in the takeaway I worked in treated staff like a butler, flicking their fingers for attention, "you there boy!" being a more common attention grabber than "excuse me" or "sorry mate", never with a word of thanks). When working people see them getting payouts for pub admission discrimination and other nonsense we get pretty sick of paying our taxes.

Dude I got the same sh!t from my customers, settled or travellers. I have a simple policy, all people are bastardS. I'm pretty equal about my hatred for humanity.