Racism and the Travelling Community

InFront

This is an issue which came up in AH recently. Hopefully, we can start out from the position that discrimination and prejudice towards any ethnic group on the grounds of their ethnic identity is a form of racism or bigotry, and that all forms of racism and bigotry are unacceptable.

Would people agree that racism against travellers is commonly seen as being socially acceptable? If so, why do you think this is the case?
I think it is very common, and I think that there will come a time when this prejudice will be no more acceptable than prejudice against Africans, Jews, Native Americans or Native Australians, on grounds of their ethnicity.

This country generously welcomes thousands of people from poor, underdeveloped regions annually, people who sometimes bring with them a lack of educational opportunities, work opportunities and a history of poverty and low standard of life. Ridiculing them would be considered unacceptable.

Why, then, do Irish social norms not always defend Irish Travellers in the same regard?

Nevyn

InFront wrote:

Why, then, do Irish social norms not always defend Irish Travellers in the same regard?

I can't see this thread honestly lasting long.

Why ?

Because nearly every single irish person will have at least 1 of not numerous
bad run ins with people who happen to be travelers and very few good interactions.

RuggieBear

Thaedydal wrote:

Because nearly every single irish person will have at least 1 of not numerous
bad run ins with people who happen to be travelers and very few good interactions.

QFT.

Hagar

InFront wrote:

This country generously welcomes thousands of people from poor, underdeveloped regions annually,

Who told you that?
Is the welcome really all that warm or genuine?
Not from what I've seen.
The Plantation of Ulster is nothing to what has happened in many small town and villages around Ireland in the last few years and there is some resentment in the small communities affected.
To quote one unnamed taxi driver in Athlone "There's so many blacks around here it gets dark around half three".
Tolerated yes, welcomed no. But that just my observation.

The travellers have rarely been tolerated never welcomed.
Sad really because I have a theory, totally unprovable, that many travellers are descended from the evicted Irish from the famine times. Put out on the road and still there.

silverharp

For me it comes down to respect, as a group I respect the Eastern Europeans for instance that have come here cos on average they want to improve themselves in some manner. Looking at the travellers as a group I see their lifestyle as deeply dysfunctional, if they were independent and didn’t want to be part of the system, that’s cool but their very existence depends on handouts from taxpayer and their respect for the law seems to be tenuous at best.

Zombrex

I always work under the following philosophy

I've never met a traveler who wasn't causing trouble
But then I probably never would met a traveler who wasn't causing trouble

At the end of the day I could pass a 100 travelers in the street and not bat an eyelid because I wouldn't know they were travelers. But I remember the 1 that runs out of Eddie Rockets with my fecking burger (yes that did actually happen), or the 2 that just walked into my mates house in college in Limerick and sat down and started watching TV and drinking beer (and who got very violent when asked to leave)

So really anyone who doesn't have regular encounters with travelers isn't really in a place to judge them as a whole. I can certainly judge the scum bag ones I've met, but it would be rather premature to assume they are all like this, because the ones that aren't like this I probably wouldn't even notice

brianthebard

Its been ingrained in our minds that its ok to hate travellers. Laws have been on the books making it illegal to be a traveller, although they have probably been done away with by now. Its a shame because at one time in history it seems travellers were welcomed, and a productive and colourful part of Irish society. But as the world modernised the usefulness of the travellers to settled people declined and they became obsolete in our society. And once that happened people turned on them.

The_Minister

brianthebard wrote:

And once that happened people turned on them.

I think its more accurate to say that once they became obsolete, they changed for the worse, then we turned on them. No-one hates them because they have no function, people hate them because of the wa their culture has turned on ours. They are more violent, and more prone to crime. This is not an opinion but a fact.

homah_7ft

The_Minister wrote:

They are more violent, and more prone to crime. This is not an opinion but a fact.

Just to clarify, who do you think they are more violent than?

mikemac

Is the OP's title even accurate as it mentions "racism"?

Are they even a different race?

They're an excellent book called "The Outsiders" written by a Sunday World journalist. Worth a read

The_Minister

homah_7ft wrote:

Just to clarify, who do you think they are more violent than?

The average settled person. It's not who I think are more violent, but it is a fact*


*Disclaimer: Obviously this is an average. Some travellers probably wouldn't hurt a fly, and some settled folk are scum.

Trotter

I suspect this thread will follow the usual course with anyone saying anything negative about the travelling community being labelled racist.

I have had little experience with the travelling community. I've taught some travelling children and I found them to be decent but different in their outlook on life. There was much that was acceptable to them that was unacceptable to me. I still found them good natured however the tendency to solve the smallest of arguments by smacking their opponent in the mouth did concern me.

In terms of adult travellers, I purposely try to ensure I dont treat travellers any differently. I have had this thrown back at me most of the time because for example, when I held the door for a traveller lady with a child in a buggy, she didnt say thanks put blocked me and asked me for cigarettes.. and was quite intimidating.

The other encounter was through the Gardaí after travellers robbed a relative's shed and stole power tools, and also left .. I'll be blunt.. a turd.. on his step.

Travellers are very different by their nature, and I have more respect for the travelling children I've met than the adults, because they have had more respect for me.

homah_7ft

The_Minister wrote:

The average settled person. It's not who I think are more violent, but it is a fact*


*Disclaimer: Obviously this is an average. Some travellers probably wouldn't hurt a fly, and some settled folk are scum.

Link please.

Nevyn

micmclo wrote:

Is the OP's title even accurate as it mentions "racism"?

Are they even a different race?

No.

homah_7ft

Thaedydal wrote:

No.

Or to be more accurate maybe

The official Irish government stance is no but the group does meet a lot of the internationally recognised requirements.

Gran Hermano

I just can't help but think that this "racism" issue is a convenient excuse for
itinerants to deflect the fact that they need to take more accountability
and responsibility for their own actions.

Most Irish people will be open and welcoming to anyone who proves themselves
as hardworking, honest and law abiding - regardless of their ethnicity or country
of birth.

j2u

i personally and proudly despise travellers,they are ALL scum,they move from place to place and after they destroy the place and use up all the resoures they move on to do it again,they rob people,ive seen them grope women on the street,they burn things in large amounts not giving a damn about the harm of it,they ask u for money like u owe them something and then get aggressive when u refuse to give it or buy something off of them.LETS GET THIS STRAIGHT I DONT OWE A TRAVELLER SCUMBAG ANYTHING.if u dont have a problem with them then clearly u have not ever encountered them unless you were buying carpets or giving them money or perhaps people would feel the same as me if they lived near them.i dont but im just saying u would see all this happen in front of if u did.and why do i blame the lot of them because i have met plenty of travellers and not once,Not once have i ever met a decent one.to sum it up i would prefer a caravan full of rats than travellers.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Wicknight wrote:

I always work under the following philosophy

I've never met a traveler who wasn't causing trouble
But then I probably never would met a traveler who wasn't causing trouble

At the end of the day I could pass a 100 travelers in the street and not bat an eyelid because I wouldn't know they were travelers. But I remember the 1 that runs out of Eddie Rockets with my fecking burger (yes that did actually happen), or the 2 that just walked into my mates house in college in Limerick and sat down and started watching TV and drinking beer (and who got very violent when asked to leave)

So really anyone who doesn't have regular encounters with travelers isn't really in a place to judge them as a whole. I can certainly judge the scum bag ones I've met, but it would be rather premature to assume they are all like this, because the ones that aren't like this I probably wouldn't even notice

Bang on.

Used to get a lot of them when I worked in lifestyle sports. A lot of them have a chip on their shoulder - they'll look for things to complain about. As wicknight was pointing out when I say a lot of them I mean a lot of the ones I noticed were travellers.

They know people get intimidated by them & they know people are afraid of bring seen as racist/bigotted - if you speak to them the same way you do every other customer they become polite & reasonable.

Des Bishop's "fitting in" is well worth a watch - He lived/hung out with some for a while & discusses his experiences.

InFront

Hagar wrote:

Who told you that?

My point here is definitely a reasonable one, and that is to say that badmouthing foreign ethnic groups is something that would be considered rude and unacceptable in most polite conversations in this country, or in front of a group of people.

But I have found myself around highly educated, politically active, sensible people - very polite people - who somehow felt it was alright to go off on a rant about members of the travelling community as one entire body of useless individuals. The only foreign ethnic group to whom a similiar level of disrespect is afforded are Roma Gypsies, a community who, incidentally, share many cultural and social parallels with travellers.

They are more violent, and more prone to crime. This is not an opinion but a fact.

What do you mean fact? Are you equating an ethnic nature and susceptibility to crime? It's unclear what you mean. 50% of American prisoners are black, does that mean that black people violent by nature? What's this about fact?

Hagar

InFront wrote:

badmouthing foreign ethnic groups is something that would be considered rude and unacceptable in most polite conversations in this country, or in front of a group of people.

So you think what people say in public or in front of groups of mixed ethnic origin is genuine? God bless your innocence.


Do the English badmouth the Irish in front of them?
Do the Americans badmouth the French in front of them?
Do WASPs badmouth Afro Americans or Latinos or Native Americans in front of them?
Do people from your homeland have people they look down on privately but never express it in front of them?

Do the Native Irish express private opinions privately?

Take off your rose tinted spectacles and have another look.

InFront

Don't you live in France?

The fact is that racism against black people, Chinese people, Hispanics and Slavs, and 99% of people who are ethnically different would not be tolerated in polite company in Ireland. You might argue that I don't know because nobody would say it to me perhaps, but I would hesitate to credit people with that level of tact.

Substitute "traveller" for the word "black" in this thread, and do you really think the comments would be tolerated?

Hagar

InFront wrote:

Don't you live in France?

Aren't you second generation East European?

Let's not make this personal. OK ?

I'm not responsible for how the French treat the people of their ex colonies.

Ireland was never a colonial power, so why are we up to our oxters in bogus refugees and bogus asylum seekers that other countries including France have conveniently not intercepted en route?

As I said before I believe the Travellers to be an integral part of our Nation. I believe that they were put on the road by the British and left there by the Irish. We should be ashamed of what we have reduced them to.

InFront

Hagar wrote:

Aren't you second generation East European?
Let's not make this personal. OK ?

That wasn't an attempt to make anything personal, living in France sounds great. My point is that telling me that I'm overly innocent about racial attitudes in this country, although I live here and have done so for a very long time, is a shaky enough statement for someone who isn;t resident.

I'm not responsible for how the French treat the people of their ex colonies.

That wasn't what I meant, at all.

But there is a very clear anomaly in Irish social attitudes and parameters with regard to (sometimes disadvantaged, poorly educated) ethnic minorities from foreign countries, and attitudes to its own domestic ethnic minority group.

Hagar

InFront wrote:

y, although I live here and have done so for a very long time, is a shaky enough statement for someone who isn;t resident.

I lived there for 48 years before I left and the last time I was in Ireland was last Wednesday. Match that?
Now do you want to measure willies?:D

Nevyn

Now boys behave if ye are going to do that I insist you both use a standerised object in the pictures for comparison; a cd case should be large enough.

homah_7ft wrote:

Or to be more accurate maybe

The official Irish government stance is no but the group does meet a lot of the internationally recognised requirements.

They do not have a language.
Cant is not a language no more then any cryptotgphy code.
Polari is closer to being a language then traveler cant an you don't see homosexuals being classed as a seperate race.

GuanYin

Thaedydal wrote:

Because nearly every single irish person will have at least 1 of not numerous
bad run ins with people who happen to be travelers and very few good interactions.

Honestly, on average my dealings with them have been no worse than my dealings with non-travellers.

I think your assumption is fairly prejudicial to start with and I kinda take exception to you speaking for the majority in that manner.

Hagar

Can I use a floppy? Or at least a disc from a PSP?

Nevyn

I never referenced it as a comparitive to so called settled people and you have in your own post admited you have had a negative encounter unless you never have any with anyone you have encountered 'settled' or other wise.

I have friends in the traveling comminity have done for the last 12 years
and even they have had issue with the more 'colourful' members of this social grouping.

Hagar wrote:

Can I use a floppy? Or at least a disc from a PSP?

Won't be much of a picture if it is floppy esp if you are going to but it beside a
5 and 1/2 inch floppy disc and he uses a 3 3/4.

Hagar wrote:

As I said before I believe the Travellers to be an integral part of our Nation. I believe that they were put on the road by the British and left there by the Irish. We should be ashamed of what we have reduced them to.

There have been several attempts to intergrate them and a lot of them don't want to and when they do settle it tends not to be for long and they still keep to themselves.

InFront

lived there for 48 years before I left and the last time I was in Ireland was last Wednesday. Match that?
Now do you want to measure willies?

Woah, I don't know how they settle arguments on the continent but lets just nod and agree to disagree:D

Just in relation to the question of racism, I tried looking it up. Some sites said they were a race, some described them as an ethnic minority. While racism may be technically inaccurate, I would consider bigotry on grounds of ones ethnic identity to essentially mean the same thing, or at least be no more acceptable.
It doesn't matter of the prejudice is on grounds of melanin receptors or forehead measurements or any other ethnic markers, it still amounts to the same thing.

Thaedydal wrote:

Won't be much of a picture if it is floppy esp if you are going to but it beside a 5 and 1/2 inch floppy disc and he uses a 3 3/4.

I don't think I like what youre implying!

GuanYin

Thaedydal wrote:

I never referenced it as a comparitive to so called settled people and you have in your own post admited you have had a negative encounter unless you never have any with anyone you have encountered 'settled' or other wise.

Actually, thats an assumption to be honest. I meet alot more settled people (or have met is more apt) so by and large, I've had more negative experiences with them. I've had one or two cases of travellers acting aggressive but by and large it's posturing and it was all reasoned out. If I was to divide my encounters with the public (and remember, I see people at just about their worst) into broad demographs, travellers would most likely be middling in the table of neg/pos experiences.

I have friends in the traveling comminity have done for the last 12 years
and even they have had issue with the more 'colourful' members of this social grouping.

I've had settled people threathen me with knives to get access to drugs. What exactly is your point?


Look - travellers have a different culture to settled people. They accept that, we don't. Like any demograph (even clergy), the troublesome ones are the ones we're most aware of because they're the ones that get the press. Give me a choice between a traveller settlement or some parts of Dublin to set up a clinic, I'll take the settlement anyday.

If you compare inner city Dublin teens to travellers, I'm reckoning the actual crime rates aren't even comparable.

Nevyn

Right then list thier ethic markers.

DublinWriter

InFront wrote:

Why, then, do Irish social norms not always defend Irish Travellers in the same regard?

I'm really torn apart on this issue.

Back when I was a teen in 1980-splash I used to do a bit of summer work in a breaker's yard, and we always had travellers come in with odds and ends.

They were always very decent, but I remember one particular traveller I made friends with. One day he had a particular engine and he thought another breaker close by was looking for it and could he use the office phone to check.

I said no problem, as the boss-man was away and handed him a copy of the Golden Pages and the phone. He laughed and got a bit embarrassed and asked me to look up the name of the breaker and could I call him for him and just pass the phone over. It was only then I realised the guy couldn't read or write.

This I did for him and that simple act almost made us blood-brothers. I don’t think a member of the ‘settled’ community ever showed him any such act of kindness. It was never so much as said, but any particular stroke or favour we could pull off for each other was done from then on in.

I remember Des Keogh really nailed it when he said "cross them and they will kill you, but do them a favour and they will kill for you"…and it's very true.

However, we Irish may not be totally simpatico with the jar, but to the Travellers, it's liquid dynamite. They remind me totally of the Native American Indians or Aborigine when it comes to how they interact with alcohol. That's their downfall, as it is also ours, but they're playing that particular DVD on fast forward while we are on regular play speed and listening to the Director’s commentary track at the same time.

Nevyn

psi wrote:

Actually, thats an assumption to be honest. I meet alot more settled people (or have met is more apt) so by and large, I've had more negative experiences with them. I've had one or two cases of travellers acting aggressive but by and large it's posturing and it was all reasoned out. If I was to divide my encounters with the public (and remember, I see people at just about their worst) into broad demographs, travellers would most likely be middling in the table of neg/pos experiences.

I've had settled people threathen me with knives to get access to drugs. What exactly is your point?

Clearly you have the rational to do this most people don't and there negative encounters with those the consider to be 'different' will stand out more in thier minds.

The premise of this thread as set out by the OP was about socitey attitude towards this socail grouping and ergo the generisations about which my post was in context.

Hagar

Thaedydal wrote:

Won't be much of a picture if it is floppy esp if you are going to but it beside a 5 and 1/2 inch floppy disc and he uses a 3 3/4.

Technically a floppy is 8 inches in diameter, the others are mini and micro floppy respectively. God bless Photoshop I say.;) Hitches up pants, God it's cold in here. That's my excuse.:D

Nods at InFront.

I don't think it's racism though, it would be if it applied to people of a different race but they're not, they're us. It is discriminatory though.

DublinWriter

Thaedydal wrote:

They do not have a language.
Cant is not a language no more then any cryptotgphy code.
Polari is closer to being a language then traveler cant an you don't see homosexuals being classed as a seperate race.

Maybe not a language, but it's a dialect. Gannon is a dialect as it uses advanced forms of verbal conjugation.

Polari is only slang as it is just concerned primarily with noun substitution. The half-dozen verbs used in Polari are basically derived from Greek and Pig-Latin.

Infection_

Racism is such a hard thing to define these days. I can see why a lot of Irish people have less than politically correct views concerning immigrants (ie Eastern Europeans) today. As someone stated, we were nevel a colonial power and don't owe anyone, anything, yet we still get swarms of immigrants. It's not that Irish people won't do the jobs, its that the Easterns will work for less, and don't know their rights. Quite honestly, disliking this isn't racism, is looking out for their own nation and people. Yet in today's politically correct world, thinking like this is classed as 100% racism. In Britian and France, as both were obviously large colonial powers, as someone else mentioned, their case with immigration is different, they in a way owe something to their ex colonies, and they have a cultural link.

Nevyn

So those who speak Connemara Irish then could be in the running to be considered a 'race' ?

Hagar

Sea, is Eireannigh iad.

InFront

Thaedydal wrote:

Right then list their ethnic markers.

They have their own language, they are nomads, they have a unique cultural history as distinct from mainstream Irish history. I understand that some people might not see that, but then not everyone appreciates that Irish people are any different to British people either.
As for racism, it isn't always about races anyway. UN Definition

"racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life

http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/cerd.htm

Nevyn

Ethnic markers are derived from:

1. Common ancestral origin
2. race or physical characteristics
3. similar culture or customs
4. language
5. religion
6. common values or ethos
7. sense of peoplehood
8. Gemeinschaft relations

1 They are irish and come from the same melting pot as the rest of us this being the land of invasions.

2 They don't have any traits which are not amoung the rest of the population
unlike those that are specfic to certain groups ie cycal cell.

3 They may have thier own customes but there are other communities that have thier own be it turf related or being an islander.

4 This I covered already it is speaking in code rather then a naturally developing language. There are other comunnitues that have thier own turns or phrase or saying and again colloquialisms not a language.

5 Irish/celtic catholic, shock horror surprise.

6 it is custom but it varies from grouping to grouping like other communities.

7 'Them and us' certianly but we still are in many ways a tribal nation and this can be seen in Gaa sports and the who are you and where are you're people from which still gets asked today.

8 yes but no more then communities other then thier's self regulated
and it is only with the recent setting up of pavi point that there is an authoirty and a spokes person.

in short they don't qualify for a differnt race or ethincity.
Granted they have thier own culture so do the Islanders and parts of my own family in Kerry but that does not make them that special.

Where thier culture intfers with other peoples rights including a quite life then
that is not acceptible.

Hagar wrote:

Technically a floppy is 8 inches in diameter, the others are mini and micro floppy respectively. God bless Photoshop I say.;)

You're old. :P

Hagar wrote:

Hitches up pants, God it's cold in here. That's my excuse.:D

Oh was that cause of the hoarefrost and here I was thinking it was greyed pubes.

homah_7ft

I'm sorry but I would disagree with your analysis Thaedyal. Would you accept that genetically they are an isolate from the general Irish poplation for instance?

Nevyn

No more then the Islanders are.

homah_7ft

This could get way off topic I suppose. I better stop. I'll just say I agree with the OP in that an exception is often made for discrimination against travellers.

mikemac

Have you ever been called a "buffer"? I have.

Hmmm...., travellers calling a settled person a derogatory generic name that they can apply to all settled people. This must mean the travellers who called me a buffer are racists.

I assuming the posters know what a buffer is.

homah_7ft

Did you think it was racist?

mikemac

homah_7ft wrote:

Did you think it was racist?

Not at all, wasn't bothered. But double standards don't you think? Settled people are called buffers but it 100% racist to even mention the word knacker

karen3212

I think the general attitude to travellers in Ireland is very similar to the general attitued of Australians towards Aborigines.
When I've asked a few Aussies about the Aborigines say they are lazy drunkards, getting money from the state and always taking. Whites in Aus also laugh about how you wouldn't want to meet them after they've been drinking. They also seem to think that what they are saying is fact and true, therefore is not racist, as in everytime they'd encountered an Aborigine this truth had been borne out. They also see the Aborigine as a PROBLEM to be solved.
I would say that generally in Ireland most people I've heard speak about travellers in a bad way also seem to think it is true, and if something is true then it is not a generalization, not racist in their minds. People really think it is just a fact that travellers are below the Irish, I don't really understand why people think it is a fact though. Lots of travellers in our area are o'briens, o'connors, connors, etc same names of settled people, how could they be a different to the Irish and have the same names?

humbert

There is a social acceptance of racism toward travellers that isn't the case for other minorities. I was going to use the word prejudice instead of racism but with travellers the root of the problem isn't prejudice, it's experience. A large percentage of the people that have dealt with travellers have had bad experiences.

They have a tendency to be violent and in the area they inhabit, which is often common ground for the local community, are very dirty. It's unfortunate, they're a very old part of Irish tradition, but if they don't treat the settled community with respect they can't very well complain that they don't receive it in return.

I will add that it's the travellers that cause trouble that are conspicuous and the ones that don't are unnoticed and this could be a factor but I don't think it's an adequate explanation to dismiss the negative attitude toward them.

Rereading that, it seems like a very condemning post and I don't feel any contempt toward them, I just can't think of anything particularly redeeming about them.

karen3212

humbert wrote:

There is a social acceptance of racism toward travellers that isn't the case for other minorities. I was going to use the word prejudice instead of racism but with travellers the root of the problem isn't prejudice, it's experience. A large percentage of the people that have dealt with travellers have had bad experiences.

They have a tendency to be violent and in the area they inhabit, which is often common ground for the local community, are very dirty. It's unfortunate, they're a very old part of Irish tradition, but if they don't treat the settled community with respect they can't very well complain that they don't receive it in return.

I will add that it's the travellers that cause trouble that are conspicuous and the ones that don't are unnoticed and this could be a factor but I don't think it's an adequate explanation to dismiss the negative attitude toward them.

Rereading that, it seems like a very condemning post and I don't feel any contempt toward them, I just can't think of anything particularly redeeming about them.

Do you think that some people were saying the same thing about the Irish not so long ago?

simu

InFront wrote:

Would people agree that racism against travellers is commonly seen as being socially acceptable? If so, why do you think this is the case?
I think it is very common, and I think that there will come a time when this prejudice will be no more acceptable than prejudice against Africans, Jews, Native Americans or Native Australians, on grounds of their ethnicity.

A fair few people seem to have a few random bad-experience-with-a-traveller-shoot-them-all story they pull out of their conversational hat every so often. They're not 100% socially acceptable though, certainly not in all social situations, but maybe people who are inclined to whinge about ethnic groups are more likely to have picked up an anecdote about travellers because they've been here longer.

Hobbes

Thaedydal wrote:

Right then list thier ethic markers.

List yours.