For those who don't believe?

BrianCalgary

Zillah wrote:

Brian, would you like to address the argument that both myself and Scofflaw have forwarded? You seem to have ignored both our posts entirely...

Sorry Zillah, I don't see anything to respond to.

Feel free to question away though.

DublinWriter

BrianCalgary wrote:

Why would an Atheist get worked up about Hell, if they don't believe such a place exists?

For the same reason I get angry when I see a parent slapping it's child to make it behave.

It's not some misguided notion of hell I get worked up about; it's the fact that people so readily buy into the concept.

philologos

DublinWriter wrote:

For the same reason I get angry when I see a parent slapping it's child to make it behave.

It's not some misguided notion of hell I get worked up about; it's the fact that people so readily buy into the concept.

Ah comeon. You get angry when people buy into God. What if they do it on their own accord as so many millions of Christians have? Is that really the equivilent of a parent slapping a childs hand to behave.

DublinWriter

Jakkass wrote:

Ah comeon. You get angry when people buy into God. What if they do it on their own accord as so many millions of Christians have? Is that really the equivilent of a parent slapping a childs hand to behave.

Well, to be honest, not really angry. Blame BrianCalvery for suggesting the word to me.

I really don't care as long as people basically treat each other well and along basic humanist principles.

The concept of hell makes me angry as it's been used as a whipping stick by Christian Clergy for millenia.

If Christianity preached that there was no hell and everyone went to heaven, then the churches would be deserted of a Sunday.

Carrot and stick, basically.

Zillah

BrianCalgary wrote:

Sorry Zillah, I don't see anything to respond to.

Ugh.

GOD makes UNIVERSE.
UNIVERSE makes people go to HELL.
Therefore Christian God = EVIL.

Simple enough?

BrianCalgary

Zillah wrote:

Ugh.

GOD makes UNIVERSE.
UNIVERSE makes people go to HELL.
Therefore Christian God = EVIL.

Simple enough?

You have got Christianity all wrong here Zillah.

God creates universe
God creates all matter living and non-living
God creates life
Satan rebels and creates Hell (complete seperation from God)
Man decides to follow Satan down this path
God responds out of love and attempts to restore the relationship with man, whom He loves.
Man either rejects the chance to reconcile or accept it.
I choose to accept it, God and Heaven rejoice. You choose to reject it, God and Heaven mourn.

God = ultimate love.
Man = Evil
Satan = Evil

I have a Mom on the soccer team I coach. We had an incident last season. = the fall

I told her one night that as far as I wa concerned the incident was finished. = attempt at reconciliation

She rejects the attempt by stating she isn't ready. = I mourn, as do other parents, becasue they know I'm good. She thinks I'm evil.

She accepts the reconciliation in October some 4 months later. = everyone rejoices.

In order to have reconciliation of relationship you need both parties to wish it. You are a sinner, I am a sinner. I accept God's offer of reconciliation, you reject it.

Fallen Seraph

I think the problem most of us are having with this model is the reconciliation of omnipotence with all-lovingness.

Tim Robbins

BrianCalgary wrote:

You have got Christianity all wrong here Zillah.

God creates universe
God creates all matter living and non-living
God creates life

Who creates God?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

umm...
the chicken?

Zillah

Ok.

We have VERSION A, and VERSION B (the differences are in bold).

VERSION A:

God creates universe
God creates all matter living and non-living
God creates life
Satan rebels and creates Hell (complete seperation from God)
Man decides to follow Satan down this path
God responds out of love and attempts to restore the relationship with man, whom He loves.
Man either rejects the chance to reconcile or accept it.
I choose to accept it, God and Heaven rejoice. You choose to reject it, God and Heaven mourn.
God does nothing to stop non-Christians from burning forever.

VERSION B:

God creates universe
God creates all matter living and non-living
God creates life
Satan rebels and creates Hell (complete seperation from God)
Man decides to follow Satan down this path
God responds out of love and attempts to restore the relationship with man, whom He loves.
Man either rejects the chance to reconcile or accept it.
I choose to accept it, God and Heaven rejoice. You choose to reject it, God and Heaven mourn.
God creates a blissful paradise in which all non-Christians can spend eternity, seperated from God, but in bliss none the less.


Question 1: Which version portrays a more loving God?

Question 2: Which version portrays a God willing to let someone suffer for eternity?
(He is omnipotent, his hands are not tied. Even if someone has 100% disbelief in him, he can still provide them with a blissful existence.)

Question 3: Which version portrays God as unwilling or unable to stop Satan from creating Hell?

Hagar

BrianCalgary wrote:

Satan rebels and creates Hell (complete seperation from God)

Do the Angels have free will? I thought that was one of man's "blessings"?

BrianCalgary

Zillah wrote:

Ok.

We have VERSION A, and VERSION B (the differences are in bold).

VERSION A:

God creates universe
God creates all matter living and non-living
God creates life
Satan rebels and creates Hell (complete seperation from God)
Man decides to follow Satan down this path
God responds out of love and attempts to restore the relationship with man, whom He loves.
Man either rejects the chance to reconcile or accept it.
I choose to accept it, God and Heaven rejoice. You choose to reject it, God and Heaven mourn.
God does nothing to stop non-Christians from burning forever.?

He does, He comes to earth and offers Himself. he tells us how to reconcile that relationship. He then leaves you with a choice.
?[/QUOTE]
?[/QUOTE]
VERSION B:

God creates universe
God creates all matter living and non-living
God creates life
Satan rebels and creates Hell (complete seperation from God)
Man decides to follow Satan down this path
God responds out of love and attempts to restore the relationship with man, whom He loves.
Man either rejects the chance to reconcile or accept it.
I choose to accept it, God and Heaven rejoice. You choose to reject it, God and Heaven mourn.
God creates a blissful paradise in which all non-Christians can spend eternity, seperated from God, but in bliss none the less.?[/QUOTE]

Would be OK, however seperation from God is Hell.


?[/QUOTE]
Question 1: Which version portrays a more loving God??[/QUOTE]
Both. The latter falls down at th eend because it contains a piece of untruth, that being the state that exists on seperation form God.
?[/QUOTE]
Question 2: Which version portrays a God willing to let someone suffer for eternity?
(He is omnipotent, his hands are not tied. Even if someone has 100% disbelief in him, he can still provide them with a blissful existence.)?[/QUOTE]

Again, the final statement isn't worth speaking about because it can't be a condition.

?[/QUOTE]
Question 3: Which version portrays God as unwilling or unable to stop Satan from creating Hell?[/QUOTE]
God is willing to stop Satan, but we have to choose to do that by choosing not to follow Satan's ways.

Zillah, you have chosen to follow a path that does not include God. That path leads to your desire of complete seperation from God. You slam Him and His people. You will get your desired outcome, complete and total sepaeration from God for all eternity.

He has given you that choice, as of now you have made the choice. The good news is that you can change it.

Zillah

Zillah wrote:

Question 3: Which version portrays God as unwilling or unable to stop Satan from creating Hell?

Well ok they both do. Secret VERSION C is where God uses his omnipotence to stop Satan before he can corrupt humanity and sin and HELL never exist.

Oh oh, theres also VERSION D, God doesn't make an Angel who is so insane that he decides to defy an omnipotent God. God, being omniscient, realises that if he makes Lucifer the way he was planning then Lucifer would fall.

EDIT: Oh wow I really hope you reformat that post before I need to respond.

Zillah

BrianCalgary wrote:

He does, He comes to earth and offers Himself. he tells us how to reconcile that relationship. He then leaves you with a choice.

NON-CHRISTIANS. I've already made my choice, the son of God wasn't very convincing. What would make him a loving God would be to ensure my happiness whether I believe in him or not.

God creates a blissful paradise in which all non-Christians can spend eternity, seperated from God, but in bliss none the less.?

Would be OK, however seperation from God is Hell.

I'm seperated from God right now but I'm not suffering. Just to be clear, do you reject the Biblical descriptions of Hell as a firey place of torture and suffering?

Question 1: Which version portrays a more loving God??

Both. The latter falls down at th eend because it contains a piece of untruth, that being the state that exists on seperation form God.

Your God is OMNIPOTENT. Is it beyond his power to make me happy while not believing in him?

Question 2: Which version portrays a God willing to let someone suffer for eternity?
(He is omnipotent, his hands are not tied. Even if someone has 100% disbelief in him, he can still provide them with a blissful existence.)?

Again, the final statement isn't worth speaking about because it can't be a condition.

Your omnipotent God allows a universe where eternal suffering is possible.

Question 3: Which version portrays God as unwilling or unable to stop Satan from creating Hell?

God is willing to stop Satan, but we have to choose to do that by choosing not to follow Satan's ways.

No, I meant at the fall. Satan begins his rebelllion and God could have instantly stopped him right then and there. No Hell, no sin, so damnation. Your God chose to not prevent those things.

He has given you that choice, as of now you have made the choice. The good news is that you can change it.

There was no choice. God knew all along that the fairytales from the tribes of Israel would not convince me of His existence.


And please use the "preview" function, your already muddled metaphysics becomes even harder to translate with such formatting.

BrianCalgary

Zillah wrote:

NON-CHRISTIANS. I've already made my choice, the son of God wasn't very convincing. What would make him a loving God would be to ensure my happiness whether I believe in him or not..

So it is your happiness that counts? Try following Him and see how happy you'd be.

Zillah wrote:

I'm seperated from God right now but I'm not suffering. Just to be clear, do you reject the Biblical descriptions of Hell as a firey place of torture and suffering?.

That is because God is still present and at work in th elives of humans, mine included.

Yes, because that is how God describes it to us. There is no other reference.

Zillah wrote:

Your God is OMNIPOTENT. Is it beyond his power to make me happy while not believing in him?.

Again, with YOUR happiness. As a Christian, what is important is the happiness and well being of those around me. My own happiness, I'm not too concerned about.

Zillah wrote:

Your omnipotent God allows a universe where eternal suffering is possible. .

If it wasn't we'd all be robots with out the opportunity to know the endless bounds of real love.

Zillah wrote:

No, I meant at the fall. Satan begins his rebelllion and God could have instantly stopped him right then and there. No Hell, no sin, so damnation. Your God chose to not prevent those things..

Ye He did. You have that right.

Zillah wrote:

There was no choice. God knew all along that the fairytales from the tribes of Israel would not convince me of His existence..

Can you prove to me your statement that they are Fairy Tales?

He did know all along that there would be those who would reject Him and cause Him all that pain of rejection. I've been rejected and boy does that hurt. God is willing to go through it all. Why, I don't know. But His boundless love is going to be tremoundous when I am in full relationship with Him for eternity.

Zillah wrote:

And please use the "preview" function, your already muddled metaphysics becomes even harder to translate with such formatting.

Again with yoru comfort.

Zillah

BrianCalgary wrote:

So it is your happiness that counts? Try following Him and see how happy you'd be.

An attempt at side stepping the issue I'm afraid. You state that your God is ALL LOVING. Hence, the happiness of every single lifeform should be his only priority. He should still love me regardless of whether I believe in him or not. And hence should but ABSOLUTELY uncompromising in assuring the happiness of every human being, atheist or not.

Yes, because that is how God describes it to us. There is no other reference.

Ok, this interesting. You believe that the phrase "seperated from God forever" is synonymous with "In burning agony forever"?

Regardless of your answer, God is OMNIPOTENT. Right? He can do anything. So is he unwilling or unable to stop me suffering? He could simply press the "bliss" switch if he wanted. Seperate from him, yet completely happy. I CHOOSE that with my freewill.

Hear that God? If you do exist, I wish to remain seperate from you but feel infinite joy after I die. This is not a violation of my freewill, I'm requesting it.

Again, with YOUR happiness. As a Christian, what is important is the happiness and well being of those around me. My own happiness, I'm not too concerned about.

Side stepping the issue again. You claim your God is all loving, hence my happiness, or the happiness of any given person, is an appropriate choice.

If it wasn't we'd all be robots with out the opportunity to know the endless bounds of real love.

Aha!!!

So we've accepted that God allowed the fall of Satan and the creation of Hell and sin?

No, I meant at the fall. Satan begins his rebelllion and God could have instantly stopped him right then and there. No Hell, no sin, so damnation. Your God chose to not prevent those things.

Ye He did. You have that right.

That answer only makes sense if you think that I personally am the Devil...

And even then, the Devil had the right to rebel?

Can you prove to me your statement that they are Fairy Tales?

Burden of proof lies on the claiment I'm afraid. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence which would point towards the Bible not being an accurate text, so a wise person would regard it with great scepticism.

He did know all along that there would be those who would reject Him and cause Him all that pain of rejection. I've been rejected and boy does that hurt. God is willing to go through it all. Why, I don't know. But His boundless love is going to be tremoundous when I am in full relationship with Him for eternity.

It always kinda comes back to the "I'll see you burn from my blissful paradise" position, doesn't it?

DublinWriter

BrianCalgary wrote:

God responds out of love and attempts to restore the relationship with man, whom He loves.

...by tempting Abraham to slaughter his first born as a test of his faith?

BrianCalgary

Zillah wrote:

An attempt at side stepping the issue I'm afraid. You state that your God is ALL LOVING. Hence, the happiness of every single lifeform should be his only priority. He should still love me regardless of whether I believe in him or not. And hence should but ABSOLUTELY uncompromising in assuring the happiness of every human being, atheist or not.?

Then why do you mention at least twice in your post 'my happiness', seems to be a priority in your life. Just curious and observant.

Zillah wrote:

Ok, this interesting. You believe that the phrase "seperated from God forever" is synonymous with "In burning agony forever"??

Because that is how it is described.

Zillah wrote:

Regardless of your answer, God is OMNIPOTENT. Right? He can do anything. So is he unwilling or unable to stop me suffering? He could simply press the "bliss" switch if he wanted. Seperate from him, yet completely happy. I CHOOSE that with my freewill.?

He is allowing us to choose. You are an adult, and by your admission smarter than the average Christian bear, so why schould God stop you using your intelligence to make a choice?

Zillah wrote:

Hear that God? If you do exist, I wish to remain seperate from you but feel infinite joy after I die. This is not a violation of my freewill, I'm requesting it.?

You have asked. And may I say quite a selfish request. Your happiness and comfort.

Zillah wrote:

Side stepping the issue again. You claim your God is all loving, hence my happiness, or the happiness of any given person, is an appropriate choice.?

And He tells you how to go about it.

Zillah wrote:

Aha!!!

So we've accepted that God allowed the fall of Satan and the creation of Hell and sin??

Yep, Because He gave Satan free choice as well. No robots in God's creation of Angels or Humans.

Zillah wrote:

Burden of proof lies on the claiment I'm afraid. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence which would point towards the Bible not being an accurate text, so a wise person would regard it with great scepticism.?

Ahh, the good all cop out, I dont have to prove anything. I think it beats the God did it one.

When I was in London a number of years ago I was at Hyde Park. A guy was heckling a preacher. So I heckled the heckler. He turned to me and said, 'there is no God'. I asked him to prove it. He said to me prove there is. I replied I never said there was a God. However you made your statement with such conviction, that I assumed that you had studied the topic and had evidence to prove your statement. The rest of the crowd looked at him for his proof, non forthcoming.

It is a huge cop out, your staement was, 'the ot is a bunch of fairy tales'. You have indicated your superior intelligence to Christians, now prove your statement. Show us how they are fairy tales.

Zillah wrote:

It always kinda comes back to the "I'll see you burn from my blissful paradise" position, doesn't it?

No. The position is, I love you and it hurts me to no end that you are making this decision. Becasue the last thing I want is to see any one burn in Hell.

BrianCalgary

DublinWriter wrote:

...by tempting Abraham to slaughter his first born as a test of his faith?

And what a test it was, and what an example Abraham set.

If only I could have so much faith.

robindch

BrianCalgary wrote:

If only I could have so much faith.

I'm very happy to hear that -- there's hope for you yet!

.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

No, you choose to get on the path that takes you to Hell. God does not send you there.

St. Aquinas (or is it Augustine) would disagree with you

If we choose to go to hell then we have dominion over God. He has to allow us into hell, even if he doesn't want to. Likewise heaven.

That clearly cannot work, since humans cannot have dominion over God, in anyway.

The only thing that does work is if we choose to follow certain rules that God has defined for us and then based on that God chooses if he will send us to hell or not.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Why would an Atheist get worked up about Hell, if they don't believe such a place exists?

Well can't speak for all atheists, but I get "worked up" over the concept of Hell because I believe it is a scare tactic invented to manipulate and influence people.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

You have got Christianity all wrong here Zillah.

God creates universe
God creates all matter living and non-living
God creates life
Satan rebels and creates Hell (complete seperation from God)
Man decides to follow Satan down this path
God responds out of love and attempts to restore the relationship with man, whom He loves.
Man either rejects the chance to reconcile or accept it.
I choose to accept it, God and Heaven rejoice. You choose to reject it, God and Heaven mourn.

God = ultimate love.
Man = Evil
Satan = Evil

Come on Brain, that was a bit weak. You are leaving out large parts

Firstly God created Satan, knowing that Satan would rebel and create Hell and tempt man kind.

Simple answer? Don't create Satan. Is there a reason why God had to create Satan?

Secondly God created Adam knowing that Satan would tempt him (through Eve and the Snake) and that God would then punish Adam's children

Simple answer? Well spoiled for choice. You know this is going to happen, so simply don't let it happen. As mentioned above, don't create Satan. Or once Satan has rebelled simply destroy Satan. Or don't put Satan in Eden in the form of a snake (that would seem the most blindingly obvious one). Or don't put the tree of knowledge in Eden (again pretty obvious). Or heck put the tree of knowledge out of reach of Adam.

Thirdly God decide the punishment for Adam and Eve for disobeying him.

Simple answer? Don't condemn your most prized creations (humans) to a life of suffering and death just because you want to. Was there a reason this had to be the punishment for humans based on what Adam did?

Fourth Satan has access to humans to tempt them and lead them astray.

Simple answer? Don't let Satan have access to humans

I mean I could go on and on and on about all the things God could do if he didn't like what was happening.

Its funny that Christians go on about God being all knowing and all powerful, but when it actually comes down to it God seems a bit of a nut case. He creates things that he knows are going to cause trouble. Why create Satan? Why place the tree in Eden. Why punish humanity with death?

Theists often use free will as a justification for all this, as if we have to have the choice between good and evil to have free will, but that is a very weak argument. Our free will is not dependent on Satan existing. Our free will was not dependent on the tree of knowledge being in Eden. None of this was necessary.

BrianCalgary wrote:

I have a Mom on the soccer team I coach. We had an incident last season. = the fall

I told her one night that as far as I wa concerned the incident was finished. = attempt at reconciliation

She rejects the attempt by stating she isn't ready. = I mourn, as do other parents, becasue they know I'm good. She thinks I'm evil.

She accepts the reconciliation in October some 4 months later. = everyone rejoices.

- You set up a soccer team = Creation

- One of the players tell you that he is going to throw the game next Saturday but you let him onto the team anyway = Creation of Satan

- Saturday comes along and you put the fake player who says he is going to throw the game in the starting line up = Satan in the garden of Eden

- You tell the players not to pass to the fake player despite the fact that he is a player on the pitch = Tree of knowledge and Gods instructions to Adam and Eve

- The fake player shouts to have the ball passed to him. One of the other players passes the ball to him. The fake player takes the ball and scores an own goal in your team's net. You lose the game = The eating of the fruit of knowledge

- You get really mad not just the player who passed the ball to the fake player, but the whole team as well. You disband the team = The Fall

You say that you are putting the team back together but you will only let a player on the team if they apologize to you for what the player who passed the ball did on Saturday = Redemption for the Fall

Does that seem fair?

Well you can say that you told the players not to pass the ball to the fake player. One of them didn't listen to you, therefore it is all his fault that you lost the game and you are right to demand an apology from him.

But think about that for a minute

The coach knew the fake player was going to throw the game. Despite this he let him on the team and decided to play him in the game. Why let him on the team, and why let him play on Saturday

(btw if the coach is God the coach also knew that the player would pass to the fake player and they would lose the game, yet he still played him and still got mad at the player when this happened)

The coach told all players not to pass to the fake player (who should never have been on the team in the first place) and 9 of them didn't. Only 1 did. Yet the entire team is disbanded. Why not just punish the 1 player who didn't listen, but also why give that player the option to pass to a fake player in the first place when you know he will. Why put the fake player on the field?

The coach took no responsibility for the fake player being on the pitch, despite the fact that he knew he wanted to throw the game and knew that he was going succeed in throwing the game.

And he demanded that the players, who didn't know what was going on and who had no control over the team roster, accept that it was all their fault this happened and apologize to him if they want to get back on the team.

Its nonsense. Total nonsense. Do you need more explanation as to why people don't believe this stuff?

pH

BrianCalgary wrote:

And what a test it was, and what an example Abraham set.

If only I could have so much faith.

Interesting. If God started speaking to you directly asking you to kill your children, you would attribute your inability to do so as 'a lack of faith'.?

I'm presuming that if God did it once he could do it again, so for the benefit of us without an in depth knowledge of him, if I hear voices telling me to kill children how do I know that it's really God's voice and not a hallucination?

I guess using Pascal's logic I should always go ahead and kill them, for I risk eternal damnation if I displease this 'loving' God, yet merely risk prison (with plenty of time for repentance and praying) if it isn't him speaking.

BrianCalgary

pH wrote:

Interesting. If God started speaking to you directly asking you to kill your children, you would attribute your inability to do so as 'a lack of faith'.?

I'm presuming that if God did it once he could do it again, so for the benefit of us without an in depth knowledge of him, if I hear voices telling me to kill children how do I know that it's really God's voice and not a hallucination?

I guess using Pascal's logic I should always go ahead and kill them, for I risk eternal damnation if I displease this 'loving' God, yet merely risk prison (with plenty of time for repentance and praying) if it isn't him speaking.

When you look at, God spoke directly to Abraham. One on one. If you hear voices telling you to kill children you would know it can't be of God, because killing children is not characteristic of God.

Tar.Aldarion

Yet, is it not the same as what he asked Abraham to do?
It didn't seem characteristic to him, so why would he do it?

BrianCalgary

Your explanation is pretty weak wicknight, you should know better.

The soccer game and winning it isn't the goal. If there was a greater plan involved which benefitted all then yes toss the game.

God created us all Angels and humans with the opportunity to choose and return God's love back to Him (Love God with all your strength, soul and mind) and to others (love your neighbour as yourself), in order for this love to be genuine and pur we have to be able to choose.

Satan's fall, Adam and Eve's fall occured to secure the bigger plan, th eone that includes undying unselfish love.

In order for humans to be fully human, it has to be so.

God gets a kick out of watching us grow and mature and engage in fruitful activities, He enjoys watching our successes. Last night I was telling our team parents agian about a particular goal that our team scored last year, it still brings me great joy to have witnessed the whole play and the satisfaction it brought the boys. That is waht God is about.

If He created us the way that you want, we'd have no choice, love would be dead and ungenuine.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

St. Aquinas (or is it Augustine) would disagree with you

If we choose to go to hell then we have dominion over God. He has to allow us into hell, even if he doesn't want to. Likewise heaven.

That clearly cannot work, since humans cannot have dominion over God, in anyway.

The only thing that does work is if we choose to follow certain rules that God has defined for us and then based on that God chooses if he will send us to hell or not..

It doesn't give us dominion over God at all. Dominion over God would be us telling God, I rejected you during life and now I am going into Heaven.

Us choosing Heaven or Hell is the power God gave us and we freely exercise it.

Wicknight wrote:

Well can't speak for all atheists, but I get "worked up" over the concept of Hell because I believe it is a scare tactic invented to manipulate and influence people.

Thanks for the response.

BrianCalgary

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Yet, is it not the same as what he asked Abraham to do?
It didn't seem characteristic to him, so why would he do it?

In Abrahams time the 10 commandments didn't exist. When I read that passage I think of my own son. I could not love another any more than what I love this guy.

When I put myself in Abrahams place and try and imagine th emotion that I would go through I really come to appreciate more the pain the Father felt as He put His son up for sacrifice. I also come to understand more the pain God goes through evertime some one rejects Him.

Maybe that is why God did it was to allow us to feel His pain and understand it.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

The soccer game and winning it isn't the goal. If there was a greater plan involved which benefitted all then yes toss the game.

Oh yes, I forgot. God's plan is not for us to second guess :rolleyes:

What was God's plan in creating Satan?

What was God's plan in allow Satan in to Eden?

What was God's plan in putting the Tree of Knowledge in Eden?

What was God's plan in punishing all of humanity for Adam's disobediences?

The whole God knows what he is doing argument is very weak. Are you honestly claiming that all this had to happen or otherwise things would be worse than they are? Utter nonsense.

If Satan was not allowed in Eden what would have happened? If God had not placed the tree of knowledge in Eden what would have happened?

BrianCalgary wrote:

God created us all Angels and humans with the opportunity to choose and return God's love back to Him

No actually he didn't, because he knew that Satan would turn away from him.

If he knew this would happen then it not happening isn't a possible outcome. It was always going to happen because God cannot be wrong and God already knows what will happen.

Satan was always going to turn evil (or create evil or what ever he is supposed to have done). Yet God made him anyway. And he put him in Eden. And let him talk to Eve. Why?

BrianCalgary wrote:

Satan's fall, Adam and Eve's fall occured to secure the bigger plan, th eone that includes undying unselfish love.

How exactly did they secure this?

Are you saying God could not love us if he didn't first create Satan, place him in Eden, place the tree of knowledge in Eden, and then punish Adam by damning all of humanity?

BrianCalgary wrote:

In order for humans to be fully human, it has to be so.

Nonsense

You assume humans must be like we are now. Why?

Humans can be anything God wants them to be.

BrianCalgary wrote:

If He created us the way that you want, we'd have no choice, love would be dead and ungenuine.

Again, why? Do you actually understand what you are talking about?

If Satan didn't exist why could we not love each other?

If Adam had not fallen in Eden why could we not love each other?

I have heard this line of argument so many times but I've never heard an explanation for why this is supposed to be true.

It simply falls back to "Don't second guess God" argument, the blind faith argument that theists seem so good at.

Adam and Eve could love before the fall, the fall wasn't necessary for them to love. So why is it necessary for us?

Come on Brian its nonsense

Dades

Wicknight wrote:

If Satan didn't exist why could we not love each other?

If Adam had not fallen in Eden why could we not love each other?

Just thinking that possibly what BC is getting at is the notion adhered to by Herman Melville in my sig.

That is that we can't experience real joy unless we have also experienced pain; to understand warmth, we must once have been cold, etc.

I agree with this idea - I just take exception with the amount of pain and suffering allowed for us to experience joy, and the unequal manner that suffering has proliferated itself geographically and otherwise in our world.