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For those who don't believe?

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    #32
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Scofflaw wrote:
    However, I don't think it's the tagline that most people find off-putting - like it or lump it, most theists aren't interested in atheism.
    True indeed - though that sounds funny.
    Most theists aren't interested in not believing, might be more telling. :)


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    #33
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    The Atheist wrote:
    True indeed - though that sounds funny.
    Most theists aren't interested in not believing, might be more telling. :)

    While that's true, I don't think it's how most theists see it - they consider atheism a state of denial or delusion, rather than non-belief.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #34
    stevejazzx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    For those who believe in questioning....

    Where Seeing is believing....

    Where thinking beats believing

    Where believing waits.........

    Where a bunch of guys scrutinise your every word and then pick apart your arguments piece by piece until you crumble like a apple.... emmmm... crumble:)


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    #35
    Schuhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭Schuhart


    stevejazzx wrote:
    Where seeing is believing....
    That seems good, but I'm not sure if it's open enough to suggest discussion of atheism rather than discussion by atheists (whatever about the practical reality of enticing lots of theists in).

    If it was one of the two that Asiaprod likes, I'd say 'It's okay to talk about it'.


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    #36
    stevejazzx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    Schuhart wrote:
    That seems good, but I'm not sure if it's open enough to suggest discussion of atheism rather than discussion by atheists (whatever about the practical reality of enticing lots of theists in).

    If it was one of the two that Asiaprod likes, I'd say 'It's okay to talk about it'.


    yep that's cool ...it's certainly not going to offend anyone...I tihnk.


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    #37
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    Beruthiel wrote:
    Cloud is the man in charge of that little job.
    Thanks Beru, that was going to be the next problem, who to tag for it.
    Schuhart wrote:
    I'd say 'It's okay to talk about it'.
    stevejazzx wrote:
    yep that's cool ...it's certainly not going to offend anyone...I tihnk.
    That would be my choice so far. Its is a nice statement, and an open invitation. I also like the fact that the entity:p that started this forum off should be the one to come up with a winner, even if he did pass the Buck.
    Scofflaw wrote:
    That would be false advertising! We may be welcoming, but non-confrontational?
    Oh ye of little faith:D


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    #38
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Asiaprod wrote:
    I also like the fact that the entity:p that started this forum off should be the one to come up with a winner, even if he did pass the Buck.
    That seems like another life.

    When I think of 'entities' I always think of cheesy floating light forms like you'd see in the original Star Trek. :D

    Just thinking you might be onto something too with your last comment:

    Atheism & Agnosticism
    Oh we of little faith...

    :D


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    #39
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    We over on the Christian board would contend that you need far more faith to be an Atheist.

    (insert humourous quip here) :D


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    #40
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Well, Brian, you have an unshakeable faith that Zeus doesn't exist -- isn't that the same thing as me believing that your god doesn't exist? :)


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    #41
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    robindch wrote:
    Well, Brian, you have an unshakeable faith that Zeus doesn't exist -- isn't that the same thing as me believing that your god doesn't exist? :)

    I don't think I have an unshakeable faith that Zeus doesn't exist. I've just never met him nor have I met or read anything by anybody that ever did.

    Cause if there is I'd love to chat and find out more about who Zeus is.


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    #42
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    BrianCalgary wrote:
    I don't think I have an unshakeable faith that Zeus doesn't exist. I've just never met him nor have I met or read anything by anybody that ever did.

    Cause if there is I'd love to chat and find out more about who Zeus is.

    Interesting. So, the Ancient Greeks clearly felt Zeus existed, and wrote down that some of them met him - do those experiences not count?

    After all, those are exactly the kind of direct meetings that are recorded in the Bible, and no longer happen today. If someone says that they personally have experienced Zeus (or Lugh, or whatever), surely that gives them as much evidential weight as you have for your God?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #43
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    The Atheist wrote:
    Atheism & Agnosticism
    Oh we of little faith...

    Love that one :D


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    #44
    hairyheretic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭hairyheretic


    BrianCalgary wrote:
    I don't think I have an unshakeable faith that Zeus doesn't exist. I've just never met him nor have I met or read anything by anybody that ever did.

    Cause if there is I'd love to chat and find out more about who Zeus is.

    Can't say I know that much about Zeus myself, but if you really wanted to find out more, this story might give you something to look into

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6283907.stm


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    #45
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    BrianCalgary wrote:
    We over on the Christian board would contend that you need far more faith to be an Atheist.

    (insert humourous quip here) :D

    I never know how serious you are about these sorts of comments. Every now and then you'll say something really stupid like the above but phrase it as a joke. Seems a bit like a way to make a cheap shot at atheists while being able to pass it off as a joke if anyone refutes your comment.


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    #46
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    BrianCalgary wrote:
    I don't think I have an unshakeable faith that Zeus doesn't exist. I've just never met him nor have I met or read anything by anybody that ever did.
    Zeus was, more or less, the top god in ancient Greece and to a fair extent, did for the ancient greeks what the christian god does for christians.

    So you're willing to accept that Zeus might exist? But if so, what does that do to the christian god? Surely there can't be two top-gods?


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    #47
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    BrianCalgary wrote:
    I don't think I have an unshakeable faith that Zeus doesn't exist.

    You don't seem to concerned that he will shove a lightning blot up your ass for your disrespect of not worshiping or following him though


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    #48
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    We over on the Christian board would contend that you need far more faith to be an Atheist.
    Zillah wrote:
    I never know how serious you are about these sorts of comments. Every now and then you'll say something really stupid like the above but phrase it as a joke. Seems a bit like a way to make a cheap shot at atheists while being able to pass it off as a joke if anyone refutes your comment.
    Zillah, since when were you unable to defend your faithlessness?

    I for one welcome the comment, and Brian's visit. Given the level of activity of much of our brethren over on Christianity I don't see how one can be indignant about a little conversation-starter such as that.


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    #49
    stevejazzx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    I hate to interject on the matter but Zillahs point seems to be that saying 'Atheists need more fatih not to believe' is a crude one liner with no weight behind it. Not so such a conversation starter as a polite jab.

    The problem I see is that an awful lot of time goes into the atheist posts over on the Christianity forum. They are often challenging and perhaps uncomfortable for the chrristians but sledom are they vacuous 'one liners' intent solely on one-up-man-ship. And when they are they called as such by their fellow atheists. i don't think we should be afraid in critiscising our christian friends as that would only lead to false relationships and ultimately we'd get nowhere with the bigger question.


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    #50
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    The Atheist wrote:
    Zillah, since when were you unable to defend your faithlessness?

    I for one welcome the comment, and Brian's visit. Given the level of activity of much of our brethren over on Christianity I don't see how one can be indignant about a little conversation-starter such as that.

    I absolutely agree that it'd be very interesting to have lots of various faithful people discussing things on this forum, and I could quite easily defend my faithlessness were such a discussion to occur.

    My point however, as stevejazzx says, was that his comment was a cheap hit and run that was hiding behind a joke ("insert humourous quip here").

    Brian, if you read this, please feel free to start a thread about it. I'd be happy to discuss it in an honest exchange, rather than one liners.


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    #51
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Your reactions surprise me, honestly.
    I was just not threatened or insulted by BC's comment on the contentions of the Christianity board.
    *Shrug*
    Zillah wrote:
    I'd be happy to discuss it in an honest exchange, rather than one liners.
    The first response he got to his comment was you calling it stupid cheap shot.


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    #52
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    The Atheist wrote:
    I for one welcome the comment, and Brian's visit. Given the level of activity of much of our brethren over on Christianity I don't see how one can be indignant about a little conversation-starter such as that.
    Seconded

    And on an aside, has a decision been made yet about our tag line?


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    #53
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    'Lapsed christians'.


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    #54
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Asiaprod wrote:
    Seconded

    And on an aside, has a decision been made yet about our tag line?

    I second (or third) "We of little faith"


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    #55
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Tar.Aldarion wrote:
    'Lapsed christians'.

    Mostly lapsed Christians....but mostly harmless.
    Wicknight wrote:
    I second (or third) "We of little faith"

    I'd fourth it, but it's not really much different from the current one, don't you think?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #56
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    The Atheist wrote:
    The first response he got to his comment was you calling it stupid cheap shot.

    Because it was! The part that annoyed me was that he passed it off as a joke thereby making a rebuttal useless. The comment itself irks me not in the slightest. I heard it before, I've countered it before.


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    #57
    Schuhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭Schuhart


    Scofflaw wrote:
    I'd fourth it, but it's not really much different from the current one, don't you think?
    Indeed (and apologies on starting this whole line). I love the phrase, but its still basically saying this is a forum for atheists, instead of discussion of matters godless.
    Zillah wrote:
    The part that annoyed me was that he passed it off as a joke thereby making a rebuttal useless.
    Just to add that I really didn't have a problem with Brian's remark either. Why shouldn't he do some good-natured coat-trailing? And if you want to answer him, I'd say just think of a response that does that rather than complaining that you think its a cheap shot.


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    #58
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Wicknight wrote:
    You don't seem to concerned that he will shove a lightning blot up your ass for your disrespect of not worshiping or following him though

    no, not really, he has no power over my life.


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    #59
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Scofflaw wrote:
    Interesting. So, the Ancient Greeks clearly felt Zeus existed, and wrote down that some of them met him - do those experiences not count?

    Sure they do, and if that is his character as portrayed in greek mythology and indeed the character of all the gods then no, I certainly don't want to worship them.
    Scofflaw wrote:
    After all, those are exactly the kind of direct meetings that are recorded in the Bible, and no longer happen today. If someone says that they personally have experienced Zeus (or Lugh, or whatever), surely that gives them as much evidential weight as you have for your God?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw
    robindch wrote:
    Zeus was, more or less, the top god in ancient Greece and to a fair extent, did for the ancient greeks what the christian god does for christians.

    So you're willing to accept that Zeus might exist? But if so, what does that do to the christian god? Surely there can't be two top-gods?
    Of course, and that is why I can not deny the existence of Zeus. Also God in Exodus and the Ten Commandments says 'you shall not have any other gods before'. So , i would say that recognised the existence of other gods, and then goes through the OT and shows His mastery over them.

    PS Zillah, I just couldn't think of something amusing to throw in there. Sorry you thought it was a shot.


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    #60
    Fallen Seraph
    Registered Users Posts: 443 ✭✭Fallen Seraph


    BrianCalgary wrote:
    Sure they do, and if that is his character as portrayed in greek mythology and indeed the character of all the gods then no, I certainly don't want to worship them.
    But surely if the gods exist as the ancient greeks portray them then it is *right* to worship them, even if they don't particularly seem worthy of worship to you. Have not there been a number of assessments of Yahweh's behavior in the old testaments which conclude that his behaviour is immoral and unworthy of worship? I'm sure you don't agree with them, but can't you see how they're analogous?


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    #61
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Fallen Seraph wrote:
    But surely if the gods exist as the ancient greeks portray them then it is *right* to worship them, even if they don't particularly seem worthy of worship to you. Have not there been a number of assessments of Yahweh's behavior in the old testaments which conclude that his behaviour is immoral and unworthy of worship? I'm sure you don't agree with them, but can't you see how they're analogous?

    Some of God's actions in the OT, I plan on asking God about, yet I trust in His wisdom and sovereignty. With regard to the Greek gods, they just seem like a selfcentred bunch that use humans for their own means. They also don't seem to have much to offer.

    YHWH on the other hand has far more than He needs and desires to share it with us.


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