Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

BryanF

29bull wrote: »

Hi,

We had a pre-planning meeting recently where the planner was dubious about our local ties to the townland where we wish to build.

My husband and I are looking to build on a site belonging to his father that is part of his farm. It is a few kilometers (less than 10 mins) drive from where we are renting now. This area where we wish to build has been in my husband's family for several generations and he helps his father farm it and rents a building here that he uses for his own business. His parents live a couple of kilometres away so the nearest family member is his elderly aunt who lives approx 1 km from the site. My OH also is involved in the local sports club (in the nearest town not in that townland).

The problem is we have not lived there for 7 years (Sustainable Rural Housing Guidelines 2005). Has anyone encountered this issue when applying for planning permission ?

I'm a little frustrated because it's not like we've just landed in the area.

Has anyone advice on this ?

how Long have you got. In my experience unless your a farmer it's a long road with no guarantees.

Poor Uncle Tom

29bull wrote: »

Hi,

We had a pre-planning meeting recently where the planner was dubious about our local ties to the townland where we wish to build.

My husband and I are looking to build on a site belonging to his father that is part of his farm. It is a few kilometers (less than 10 mins) drive from where we are renting now. This area where we wish to build has been in my husband's family for several generations and he helps his father farm it and rents a building here that he uses for his own business. His parents live a couple of kilometres away so the nearest family member is his elderly aunt who lives approx 1 km from the site. My OH also is involved in the local sports club (in the nearest town not in that townland).

The problem is we have not lived there for 7 years (Sustainable Rural Housing Guidelines 2005). Has anyone encountered this issue when applying for planning permission ?

I'm a little frustrated because it's not like we've just landed in the area.

Has anyone advice on this ?

You need to sit down with a good local agent with a track record and discuss all your options in depth.

theoptimist

29bull, listen to the planner. They are the ones who will make the decision and if they are dubious that says it all. I listened to opinions of so many architects, engineers etc when we were going through the process and they were very often wrong, telling me what I wanted to hear and often let me waste time and money when looking back on it I really should have listened to my own instincts, the planning rules in black and white, and if you can get them to talk frankly with you..the planner. No one has a crystal ball
We are in wicklow and my (unqualified!) opinion is that there are not enough hard and fast rules for anyone to correctly predict/interpret the planning department/planners wishes, a huge amount of it seemed to be at the discretion of the individual planner. It is incredibly frustrating because it is not a case whereby you can tick all the boxes and then be confident of obtaining planning and often the requests of the department seem very illogical. Does anyone know why they like houses to be right on the road? Surely a house set well back with a well planted longer drive is less obtrusive?
If it seems to you that it isn't going to be a goer then you are probably right! Our neighbours bought land 15 years ago wanting to build and have lived in rented accom and a mobile home up until this year when they finally moved into their house. They were running a business on site and i would have said there was a definite need for them to live where their business is. By the time they got planning they certainly met the guidelines on the length of time living in the area though!
All that said your case does seem to have room for hope, do as uncle tom say and talk to a local engineer/architect, just don't take everything they say as gospel.

29bull

BryanF wrote: »

how Long have you got. In my experience unless your a farmer it's a long road with no guarantees.

Thanks for the reply. We're learning very quickly that this is the case. I guess it's not enough to be out on the land mending fences and moving lives stock with your father most days because they need proof. The business is surely enriching the local community so we're going to argue that one for sure. We're meeting a professional next week for advice. I do agree the countryside needs to be protected but I was annoyed the land that's in a family for generations could not be used to build a sympathetic, vernacular house to sustain this generation.

29bull

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

You need to sit down with a good local agent with a track record and discuss all your options in depth.

Thanks Poor Uncle Tom. We're meeting a professional this week.

29bull

theoptimist wrote: »

29bull, listen to the planner. They are the ones who will make the decision and if they are dubious that says it all. I listened to opinions of so many architects, engineers etc when we were going through the process and they were very often wrong, telling me what I wanted to hear and often let me waste time and money when looking back on it I really should have listened to my own instincts, the planning rules in black and white, and if you can get them to talk frankly with you..the planner. No one has a crystal ball
We are in wicklow and my (unqualified!) opinion is that there are not enough hard and fast rules for anyone to correctly predict/interpret the planning department/planners wishes, a huge amount of it seemed to be at the discretion of the individual planner. It is incredibly frustrating because it is not a case whereby you can tick all the boxes and then be confident of obtaining planning and often the requests of the department seem very illogical. Does anyone know why they like houses to be right on the road? Surely a house set well back with a well planted longer drive is less obtrusive?
If it seems to you that it isn't going to be a goer then you are probably right! Our neighbours bought land 15 years ago wanting to build and have lived in rented accom and a mobile home up until this year when they finally moved into their house. They were running a business on site and i would have said there was a definite need for them to live where their business is. By the time they got planning they certainly met the guidelines on the length of time living in the area though!
All that said your case does seem to have room for hope, do as uncle tom say and talk to a local engineer/architect, just don't take everything they say as gospel.

Thanks the optimist. I couldn't agree more with you about planners thinking houses built right on the road are less obtrusive. I have always been critical of this and now I'm even more aware. There is a jarring example very near the site we wish to build on it actually upsets me. It seems to go against the Cork Rural Planning Guide (I love this book). Thanks for telling me about your own experience and your poor neighbours. I definitely can't fathom it. I suppose they had little choice since they had bought the land already.

We're meeting a professional next week on the site to discuss options and we're going to give it a shot because quite frankly we'll regret it if we don't.

Villain

Talk to local councillors

theoptimist

Absolutely 29bull, give it a shot. In the end I was astonished at the design they waved through with no issues at all. They are unpredictable but it does sound like you tick a lot of the boxes. An architect will help you make your case.

Just keep in mind that no one can read the planners mind. I had a lot of conversations with engineer and architect that ran:

me: Are you sure that this issue wont be a problem? because it seems a pretty obvious sticking point to me.

Architect: no no, that shouldnt be any problem at all

me: hurray! thats great, lets get the application in

and guess what..it turned out to be a problem!!

Aard

^I think you just contradicted yourself there in saying that architects will help! Not every architect will have experience with making a planning application that demands a local needs assessment.

theoptimist

I'm probably contradicting myself left right and centre!
but I was trying to say an architect will help, but there's a limit to how much they can help in some areas (even the ones with plenty of experience in trying to bring people through the process), cos a lot of the planning 'rules' are only 'guidelines'.
When what they are telling 29bull seems to contradict what the planner is telling them, or one of the strictly required rules (there i go again with the contradictions!, but SOME of those rules are definitely rules and not guidelines) its time to be a bit wary

miseannmarie

Just looked at a site that my partner and I would like to apply for planning permission on and to but if we get pp.
Just been advise it's an a3 zone in cork county council. Iv tried searching info on this but no look, can anybody offer me advice?

Victor

miseannmarie wrote: »

Just looked at a site that my partner and I would like to apply for planning permission on and to but if we get pp.
Just been advise it's an a3 zone in cork county council. Iv tried searching info on this but no look, can anybody offer me advice?

Read the written statement of the development plan and it will indicate the main rules that apply. Further rules will apply generally.

Victor

Thread moved form Accommodation & Property.

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miseannmarie

Victor wrote: »

Read the written statement of the development plan and it will indicate the main rules that apply. Further rules will apply generally.

Sorry but I really don't have a clue this is all new to me. Could you plead tell me where I would find the development plan? Thank you for your help

bee06

miseannmarie wrote: »

Sorry but I really don't have a clue this is all new to me. Could you plead tell me where I would find the development plan? Thank you for your help

Google Cork County Council development plan A3 and you'll find it.

angelic123

Is there different restrictions in different parishes, towns etc within each county?
Who makes the rules, how do you figure out what restrictions lie - is there any easy way to find an area that i would be allowed to build in without having to bid on sites and apply for planning each time..

BryanF

http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/pdf/260558658.pdf

http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/web/Cork%20County%20Council/Departments/Planning/Forms/Forms%20-%20PDF%20Versions/Supplementary%20Application%20Form

More than 7 years residing in the direct area, working in the direct area, family in the direct area, housing need, family farm etc etc May still not be enough in the cork county green belts: it's called planning & sustainable development. If you/family are not in an A3, then it's a long possibly pointless road

May I was to ask how many cars you need if you built on your site? And where the nearest shop,pub,school, your place of work will be? Does much public transport services pass the gate?

get a goggle map and mark the proposed house location on it And send it into the relevant local planner and ask to speak to them. They will suggest meeting at a planning clinic. Ensure you get pre-planning meeting number and take you own detailed notes. They will NOT give you a yes or no answer, however if you bring an architect or planning consultant they may read between the lines or argue your case, BUT when all is said & done the planners will only formally comment on a formal planning submission which takes approx 3 months & 2/5k in professional fees.

Best of luck

Victor

It has nothing to do with parishes.

It is down to the city / county development plan and any amending local plans for the site. In the case of former towns (all legal towns abolished June 2014), there may be additional policies to comply with. The legal status of being within a town boundary did not necessarily coincide with urban development.

Determine what council is relevant and using their website check the development plan maps for that area and check for a 'local needs' (name will vary) or similar clause in the text.

Victor

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BryanF

2 A&P forum threads merged with planning thread

emereld

Hi all

I had gotten as far as changing the site entrance and some ground work, footings dug and poured.

Basically my permission for house extension and some site alterations has expired which was down to an economic reason, but am I in a position now to build again.

My question: I take it that it is seen as a new full application again? Could I use the old plans that were previously submitted or would there be a lot of new criteria that would be expected?

Any info and pointers would be greatly appreciated.

BryanF

emereld wrote: »

Hi all

I had gotten as far as changing the site entrance and some ground work, footings dug and poured.

Basically my permission for house extension and some site alterations has expired which was down to an economic reason, but am I in a position now to build again.

My question: I take it that it is seen as a new full application again? Could I use the old plans that were previously submitted or would there be a lot of new criteria that would be expected?

Any info and pointers would be greatly appreciated.

Extension Msq ?

emereld

BryanF wrote: »

Extension Msq ?

The extension would be 175msq

damianmc

A question about planning in the north.
Im not sure if this is the right thread, but :

Anyone have any idea of the chances of PPS 21 being relaxed, changed in the newar future.
I am looking at sites at the minute and alot of these guys seem to think its still 2005 judging by the prices theya re asking for.
The trouble is due to PPS21 rural site in my area are few and far between.

miseannmarie

Thank for all your info!

Do you need to fall under all the criteria?

More than 7 years residing in the direct area, working in the direct area, family in the direct area, housing need, family farm etc etc May still not be enough in the cork county green belts: it's called planning & sustainable development. If you/family are not in an A3, then it's a long possibly pointless road

May I was to ask how many cars you need if you built on your site? And where the nearest shop,pub,school, your place of work will be? Does much public transport services pass the gate?

get a goggle map and mark the proposed house location on it And send it into the relevant local planner and ask to speak to them. They will suggest meeting at a planning clinic. Ensure you get pre-planning meeting number and take you own detailed notes. They will NOT give you a yes or no answer, however if you bring an architect or planning consultant they may read between the lines or argue your case, BUT when all is said & done the planners will only formally comment on a formal planning submission which takes approx 3 months & 2/5k in professional fees.

Best of luck

BryanF

You need to talk to an arch or planning consultant in conjunction with the planning authority

lavenderlady

Hi All
We attended a pre-planning meeting recently in Westmeath County council, to determine if we were likely to get a favorable outcome for a planning application for a private home, on my dads family land in a rural area. The planner was satisfied with the site, our local need, and in principle our house plan, which is a traditional 2 story farm house plan, with 1 bedroom /bathroom downstairs.
However she did specify that the front elevation of the main body of the house should be no wider than 10m, and the width of the house no deeper than 8 m. Our planned home was a 4 bed, with 1 lounge, and kitchen/living diner, and only 1 ensuite- so not a monstrosity by any means. Now the initial plan was 13m by 9 metres depth and we definitely have scope to condense the width of the home, but only realistically by a metre or so.
My query is has anyone come across this stipulation before. The planner said that its part of the rural development plan (although not expressly stated in same) that houses main forms should not be too large. She confirmed if we just break up the house and have 2 2-story parts built onto the main body of the house this would be favourable. However this is not really in keeping with traditional farmhouse houses either. We are a little confused,as to how to proceed. Looking at architect sample plans overnight for similar type homes, and plan-a-home book most houses (2000sq foot) have similar /larger widths.

My feeling is reduce the width of the house by a metre, keep depth the same, and the lay-out ,submit and see what they say......as we love our plan, it suits the site and our budget and I get the feeling that it is the planners who make the ultimate decision.
Its bewildering as almost all the houses on our local road are huge, town type , massive houses with a frontage of at least 14-15 m but the planner said precedence is not a good way to go with planning .
Just wondering if anyone has any advice? Or has anyone been granted planning permission recently in this area?
Thanks

sydthebeat

lavenderlady wrote: »

Looking at architect sample plans overnight for similar type homes, and plan-a-home book most houses (2000sq foot) have similar /larger widths.

My feeling is reduce the width of the house by a metre, keep depth the same, and the lay-out ,submit and see what they say......as we love our plan, it suits the site and our budget and I get the feeling that it is the planners who make the ultimate decision.

Sounds like you want a bog standard 4 up 4 down type faux palladian 2 storey house.

most counties now want rural houses designed so as to reduce the mass and form of a house, so a 13 m wide x 8 m deep will create a long high elevation... exactly what they do not want.

if you are completely married to this plan, id suggest reducing down to 8 m wide if not such a big deal.. and reduce the widths by what you think is the max youd be happy with. can i also suggest you do not include any gables or change of finish to the front elevations, leave as simple as possible.....

zzboardzz

Hi

Im looking for any advice on my idea.

There is a wall which divides my property with my neighbours. It doesnt touch either property but splits our territory. I believe it may be called a party wall. Each of us has a side entrance / gate leading to our gardens. The fence wont affect this.

What the max height I can go to with a wooden fence? (Is it two meters?) I only plan to go approx 6 ft on the front but just wondering.

My garden / land is approx 2 foot higher than theirs, (theirs stepped down 2 foot) so can I measure 2 meters from my side of the wall as the max i.e. on my territory. Just for future ref to know.

Can I attach the fence to my side of the wall with bolts?

Do rules differ from the front garden party wall to the back piece of the party garden wall? In the back garden the wall is higher (approx 6 ft) and I may add a foot piece of wood to the top for privacy.

Any advice appreciated.

Thanks

lavenderlady

Thanks for the reply Sydthebeat
Yes it is fairly bog standard, but we were advised by a local architect this rural type of dwelling was the most ideal for getting planning, and is similar to a lot of the existing homes in the area.The elevations are to be very simple, with plain windows and smooth render.

One of the main reasons we like it is its simplicity and also for cost of roof etc.

I think the fact the planner was happy for us to go into a 3rd story and add 2 story bits onto the gables, or at the rear of the house confused us as this doesnt seem to marry with the 'ideal' rural type of home we have been advised to plan. Also the mass of the house would actually be greater, and the roof higher with her suggestions, but I accept that 13m is very wide. We are a bit unsure how to proceed, as the technician/engineer who is helping us with the plans feels that the dimensions she advised are more akin to rural homes from 50 years ago and not in line with current requirements. He thinks tighten the plan a bit and proceed.

I suppose I was just wondering how much of what is actually said at pre-planning is taken into account at the actual planning permission decision stage.