priority when turning right at signal controlled crossroads?

lostinsuperfunk

This just happened to me today:

I was at a traffic light controlled crossroads junction, waiting to turn left. I was first in the queue. There is a little slip lane for turning left, but there is no "green arrow" light for turning left, i.e. just one "normal" green light for all traffic.

Light goes green, I pull out and start turning left into the road. A car is coming from the opposite direction, wanting to turn right, i.e. this car wants to turn into the same road as me. I'm pretty sure left-turning traffic has priority over right-turning traffic in this situation so I don't give way to him, and continue. He has to wait and now he is behind me. I've attached a map of the junction.

We both end up in the same car park down the road, and he tells me that what I did was wrong, that I should always give way to traffic coming from the right. I was driving a car with an L-plate, so he also informed me for good measure that he was a driving instructor and I would fail a test for doing what I just did.

Anyway, I stuck my ground, told him that I didn't think traffic turning right at a 4-way junction had priority over traffic coming from the opposite direction intending to turn left but he insisted that I was wrong.

Thinking about it now, I'm pretty certain he was in the wrong by making that right turn without waiting, but possibly I was wrong also by not ceding right of way to him once he'd started to make the turn, as by then he was "traffic coming from the right"?

So, any opinions? Both wrong, I'm right, or he's right?

SoBe

i would think you would be in the wrong to be honest and should have given way to the traffic comming on the right,still not to worry there was no harm done and mabey a lesson learned

copacetic

you were in the wrong, i'm sure there would have been a 'yield' sign on the road?

It'd be different if the left turn wasn't filtered off. As far as I know the whole point
of building those little islands is so left lane can go left when it is clear. However
you must always yield. There are loads of these types of turns around dublin and
I've never seen anyone think they have right of way coming out of one. It doesn't
make any sense..

Marcus.Aurelius

He joined the road before you, so he had completed his turn onto the main road before you did, so he was then traffic on that road you wanted to join, so yes, you should have yielded.

If you had joined at a 4 way crossroads then yes, you have priority as you're going left. But you were on a filter lane (as far as I can see from your map) so you were supposed to yield to all oncoming traffic on the road.

neacy69

I think you were in the wrong
AFAIK the filter is not part of the crossroad and you should give way to traffic coming from your right

BrianD3

He was 100% WRONG. It's scary that there are such idiots on the road.

edit: apologies, I didn't look at the map. In those cases there is invariably a yield sign or a flashing amber arrow, in which case you should have yielded. He was in the right, but he gave you the wrong reason as to why he was in the right. The "give way to traffic coming from your right" general rule is not what's relevant here.

lostinsuperfunk

Thanks for the replies, my main conclusion so far is just to keep my eyes peeled at this type of junction!
There was no yield sign or orange filter arrow on the left-turning slip. It is only big enough for 1-2 cars. As far as I can make out the slip is controlled by the same green light as the straight ahead lane, i.e. I don`t think you would be permitted to filter left from this slip when that light is red.

copacetic

lostinsuperfunk wrote:

Thanks for the replies, my main conclusion so far is just to keep my eyes peeled at this type of junction!
There was no yield sign or orange filter arrow on the left-turning slip. It is only big enough for 1-2 cars. As far as I can make out the slip is controlled by the same green light as the straight ahead lane, i.e. I don`t think you would be permitted to filter left from this slip when that light is red.

where is the junction?
It doesn't sound right at all that it has no road markings and no lights. It couldn't be controlled by the main lights as you couldn't see them properly from the slip?

BrianD3

This left filter lane - did it continue on uninterrupted onto the main road? Did the other guy have to cross a white line to get onto the same piece of road as you were on?

If you are driving south along the fonthill road, at the big roundabout near Liffey Valley you will come across a situation such as the above. South bound traffic that wishes to head east (turn left) has its own filter lane just before the roundabout. Traffic that uses the filter lane does not interfere with northbound traffic that wishes to head east (right turn at the roundabout)

lostinsuperfunk

It's in Cork (junction of Togher Road and Vicars Road). There are lots of crap road junctions in Cork...

The main traffic lights are clearly visible from the slip road, it's very small and they're positioned on the little triangular island, and the stop lines are a good few feet in front of the lights.

Anyway, I learned something about these slip roads, and no harm done as no one was going fast. Though I still think he was also wrong to attempt that right turn. He would have known that traffic coming from my side would have also had a green light.

littlejukka

i learned to drive around that part of the city. you are obliged to yield to any traffic coming from the right in those circumstances. if there had been a collision you would have been 100% accountable.

MrPudding

lostinsuperfunk wrote:

I was driving a car with an L-plate, so he also informed me for good measure that he was a driving instructor and I would fail a test for doing what I just did.

What did the qualified driver accompanying you advise you to do?

EDIT: Also found the answer here http://www.rsa.ie/Home/upload/File/ROTR_2007.pdf

The Rules of the Road wrote:

If you plan to turn right at a junction and a vehicle from the opposite
direction wants to turn into the same road, the vehicle that is turning left
has right of way. If yours is the vehicle turning right, you must wait for
the other vehicle to turn first.

Looks like the OP was in fact correct. If that guy actually is a driving instructor is worry about the people he is teaching.

MrP

copacetic

lostinsuperfunk wrote:

Though I still think he was also wrong to attempt that right turn. He would have known that traffic coming from my side would have also had a green light.

don't take this the wrong way, but you asked for opinion and everyone says you were in the wrong. shouldn't you take that on board?

Padraig Mor

I know that junction and would have done exactly what the OP did. There is no yield sign etc, the slip road is tiny and controlled by the junction lights - I would consider the 'slip road' to be part of the junction. However, I can see where the confusion would arise - I may even be wrong!

copacetic

MrPudding wrote:

What did the qualified driver accompanying you advise you to do?

EDIT: Also found the answer here http://www.rsa.ie/Home/upload/File/ROTR_2007.pdf



Looks like the OP was in fact correct. If that guy actually is a driving instructor is worry about the people he is teaching.

MrP

that's for a standard junction, which is pretty obvious. the debate is on a junction with a left turn slip with a yield (or not as the case may be)

ninty9er

OP was most certainly in the wrong. Had the slip road not been there the OP would have had every right to make the turn first, but think of it this way:

Would you enter a motorway directly onto a lane with oncoming traffic and assume to be correct just because there was no yield sign

MrPudding

copacetic wrote:

that's for a standard junction, which is pretty obvious. the debate is on a junction with a left turn slip with a yield (or not as the case may be)

Fair point. I must admit to not looking at the pic until after I posted. My bad.

MrP

Guy:Incognito

Yeah, there really isnt a debate here, the op was 100% wrong. Basically when you enter the slip road and want to then exit onto the main road you are now effectvly at a standard minor to main road left hand turn. The fact that the road your turning off happens to be running at a diagonal is irrelevant.

ScouseMouse

just one more for good measure. You were wrong, even if there was a green light, it only means proceed if safe to do so...

jhegarty

One more for wrong....(sorry OP)

if you look at your map you see you are joining his road, so he has right of way...

ps. lets put some blame on the council for not having a yield sign there, those type of junctions normally do..

DublinWriter

OP in the wrong.

BTW the junction looks *exactly* like the one in Raheny villiage, except the slip road has its own lights, usually flashing amber 80% of the time.

The Local County Council of whereever OP's junction is should put either lights or a Yield sign on that slip road.

Conar

OP was definitely in the wrong.
The other guy had already joined the road before you so should not yield for you.
As mentioned earlier you would only have right of way if it was a standard crossroads situation with no slips.

Stark

lostinsuperfunk wrote:

It's in Cork (junction of Togher Road and Vicars Road). There are lots of crap road junctions in Cork...

The main traffic lights are clearly visible from the slip road, it's very small and they're positioned on the little triangular island, and the stop lines are a good few feet in front of the lights.

I was thinking of that junction when I was reading the thread. It's a favourite of the driving testers down there for catching people out. I remember finding it very confusing when learning to drive down in Cork. Most of the ones in Dublin have yield signs/flashing amber arrows. In any case, you should have yielded.

Dr. Loon

DublinWriter wrote:

OP in the wrong.

BTW the junction looks *exactly* like the one in Raheny villiage, except the slip road has its own lights, usually flashing amber 80% of the time.

That's the same junction I was thinking of when reading this. I can't see the confusion here though, and it worries me that the OP doesn't know how to use a junction like this. At least it's a lesson learnt with no bad results.

smokey2

I think you were right to do what you did!!

from what you say he jumped the green light and turned right across oncoming traffic is that so??

if you were goin straight on at the same green light he could have hit you or you hit him!!

he was wrong!!

Wossack

these threads always scare me, some of the answers...

SoBe

smokey2 wrote:

I think you were right to do what you did!!

from what you say he jumped the green light and turned right across oncoming traffic is that so??

if you were goin straight on at the same green light he could have hit you or you hit him!!

he was wrong!!

how do you figure that?yes if the op was going straight through he would have had the right of way,but he wasnt he was turning left.the other driver was on the road the op wanted to join therefore he has to give way.

now i can see why there are so many accidents these days,not enough drivers using a thing called common sense

smokey2

cos as i see it the other driver was turning right across other traffic and so was in the wrong!!

yes after 9 yrs of driving common sense tells you to wait for the idiot cos theres plenty of them out there but op didn't ask a question about common sense it was who was right and who was wrong!!

Guy:Incognito

smokey2 wrote:

cos as i see it the other driver was turning right across other traffic and so was in the wrong!!

yes after 9 yrs of driving common sense tells you to wait for the idiot cos theres plenty of them out there but op didn't ask a question about common sense it was who was right and who was wrong!!

NO NONONONONONONONONONONONONO and another one for good measue, NO. Do not listen to this man, unless you want a claim against you

A slip road is basically the same as a non- signall controlled minor road leadign onto a major one. The op was in effect turning left out onto a main road that the guy who turned right at the main junction and is now through the lights is on. He therefore has the right of way.

Wossack

smokey2 wrote:

cos as i see it the other driver was turning right across other traffic and so was in the wrong!!

yes after 9 yrs of driving common sense tells you to wait for the idiot cos theres plenty of them out there but op didn't ask a question about common sense it was who was right and who was wrong!!

are you saying this after looking at the diagram of the junction (in the OP), and reading the part about 'slip road'? cause if you are, I dont think you should be driving... 9 years... :eek:

in the case of who was right, and who was wrong, Stekelly summed it up pretty well when he said

Yeah, there really isnt a debate here, the op was 100% wrong. Basically when you enter the slip road and want to then exit onto the main road you are now effectvly at a standard minor to main road left hand turn. The fact that the road your turning off happens to be running at a diagonal is irrelevant.

the slip road just bypasses the traffic controls at that junction - normal rules apply

SoBe

smokey2 wrote:

cos as i see it the other driver was turning right across other traffic and so was in the wrong!!

yes after 9 yrs of driving common sense tells you to wait for the idiot cos theres plenty of them out there but op didn't ask a question about common sense it was who was right and who was wrong!!

the other driver had a green light therefore the traffic on the road he was joining had a red one so he wasnt in the wrong at all,mabey he was just quicker off the lights than the op?

NeMiSiS

I don't follow totally, If you were first in the quque.. on basically the slip road, you would yield to traffic on your right hand side.

What I don's get is, now this is going from your picture, the traffic lights do not control the slip road, so you should not have been waiting on green at all.. as in there is no traffic lights on the slip road, so you simply yield to traffic turning right onto the road which you wished to turn left onto.. this is going from the picture..

Examples of this in Dublin would be.. if you were turning left into Citywest biz park from the N81, or turning left from the N81, through Tallaght Village, and up onto the Greenhills road.. those would be two examples I think the pic represents.. without knowing the junction itself..

TK

KeRbDoG

Blue car has right of way over the red car. Consider that 'slip road' a normal junction where you (red) give way to traffic coming from your right as your turning left.

jhegarty

Stekelly wrote:

NO NONONONONONONONONONONONONO and another one for good measue, NO. Do not listen to this man, unless you want a claim against you

A slip road is basically the same as a non- signall controlled minor road leadign onto a major one. The op was in effect turning left out onto a main road that the guy who turned right at the main junction and is now through the lights is on. He therefore has the right of way.

i'll add another NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Guy:Incognito

kerbdog wrote:

Blue car has right of way over the red car. Consider that 'slip road' a normal junction where you (red) give way to traffic coming from your right as your turning left.

Dammit this new evidence changes everything.


I thought it was a black car, I dont like blue. Red in the right.

robio

You should read the rules of the road at least once before you kill someone! you're 100% in the wrong here, i'd say you failed to see the big white Yeild sign on the road or else a big solid white line going across the slip road. the lad in the blue car would have had green light and you were merging with the traffic which gives the traffic to the right the right of way.

I cant believe there are idiots who think the red car was in the right!

you should have got that driving instructers phone number and booked a few lessons

Guy:Incognito

robio wrote:

you should have got that driving instructers phone number and booked a few lessons

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!eleven!!!!!!!!!!!

bbability

Traffic to your right always has the right of way. You were incorrect although you are thinking in that frame of mind that the green light means your in the clear. Drivers can make that mistake that the "green light" is the key to all. In fact there are two points to highlight.

1. Drivers must always remember that you never go by a set of lights or signs 100%. Traffic to your right always has the right of way at a junction.

2. That type of junction should not have a green light but an flashing amber light pointing in the direction of the road you are joining. Therefore its an error in the junction's traffic light layout. (most likely in Dublin City Council's baby). That same company are responsable for some awful traffic light managment throughout Dublin. Only this morning on my way to town via drumcondra road. There are 4 sets of lights at major junctions between Clonliffe Road and Gardenier Street. This is the way it way this morning.
First set red, Second set green, third set red, fourth set green. And vise versa. It took me 5 minutes to get through 4 sets of lights with no traffic this morning. Its pure cack.

smokey2

Oh dear I typed before thinkin again!!!

lol

sorry

Stark

bbability wrote:

2. That type of junction should not have a green light but an flashing amber light pointing in the direction of the road you are joining. Therefore its an error in the junction's traffic light layout. (most likely in Dublin City Council's baby).

The junction's in Cork. It's on one of the test routes down there too.

lostinsuperfunk

OK, the overwhelming view here is that red was in the wrong, which I understand (yield to traffic coming from right) and accept. Good to know too, as there are a lot of junctions of this type in Cork (once again, no filter arrows, no yield sign, slip road controlled by main signal I believe).

I think blue might have jumped the green light alright, as otherwise I don't see he could have almost completed his turn by the time I was pulling out. But that's irrelevant as I should have yielded anyway.

One strange result of this is that I presume red could turn left with right-of-way if it just stayed in the main lane and didn't bother using the slip lane at all (don't worry, I'm not going to start doing this ).

Stark

lostinsuperfunk wrote:

One strange result of this is that I presume red could turn left with right-of-way if it just stayed in the main lane and didn't bother using the slip lane at all (don't worry, I'm not going to start doing this ).

Yes that is correct. Though I'm not sure if the lane markings would permit you to stay in the main lane if you were turning left. There could be a marking to say "straight ahead only" or "straight ahead and right only". Although given half the junctions in Cork, I wouldn't be surprised if there were no markings at all.

DubTony

The best example of stupid traffic control was the Crumlin Road / Drimnagh Rd, Kildare Road junction in Crumlin (below). This one used to be ridiculous.



Traffic coming from the city (right hand side of pic) and going onto St. Mary's Road, and straight through the Kildare Road junction was controlled by a seperate set of lights as traffic staying on Drimnagh Rd. However, this set of lights was linked to, and always gave the same instruction as, the straight ahead lights.

A situation that arose quite often was where traffic coming from Drimnagh (left of pic) and turning right to go to Kildare Rd, would be confronted by cars on St. Mary's Road going straight through the junction without checking because they had a green light. I saw three crashes, including a rear ender where a driver realised his error, slammed on and was shunted by the car behind, over 10 years and only used the junction 2 or 3 times a week.

The St. Mary's Road light has been changed and now flashes amber most of the time. What's really worrying though is that it actually took the city so long to make this simple adjustment.