[Article] Traffic poll shows need for Mayo rail link

Slice

From today's Irish Times by Tim O'Brien

A survey has found that 40 per cent of traffic in and out of Galway city through Claregalway originates from or travels to south Mayo, where commuters must wait until 2014 for a rail connection.

The results of the survey, conducted on behalf of Galway County Council, were released ahead of this week's conference on the western rail corridor, to be addressed by Minister for Transport Martin Cullen and Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs Éamon Ó Cuív.

The corridor is a State-owned rail line stretching for 234km from Sligo to Limerick.

Statistics gathered last summer at Milltown, Co Galway, revealed that more than 9,000 vehicles a day were passing through the village on the N17 near the Mayo border. An average of 500 vehicles per hour pass through from 8am-8pm, with an evening peak of 400 vehicles southbound between 6-7pm, and 350 northbound in the same period.

The data, compiled by UK-based Golden River Traffic, showed that up to 36 per cent of traffic entering and exiting Galway city through Claregalway via the N17 throughout the day originates from or travels to the south Mayo area. This rises to more than 40 per cent at peak times.

A previous traffic survey at Claregalway found 700 vehicles travelled from the city each hour. Galway County Council estimates the real figure is closer to over 30,000 a day, when those who try to bypass the congested village by travelling on the "rat runs" are included.

The results surprised West On Track, the lobby group for the western rail corridor.

"It shows that Galway is feeding out as much traffic as it's pulling in," said spokesman Colmán Ó Raghallaigh.

"The figures mean that 2.5 million vehicles a year are passing through a tiny village and yet the people who live there have been told they must wait until 2014 to get a rail service."

During the same period last year, West on Track interviewed 200 motorists along the route, of whom 49.5 per cent were daily commuters. Almost 80 per cent of those surveyed said they would switch to rail if it was available.

Under its blueprint for transport spending, known as Transport 21, the Government has committed to reopening the rail corridor in several phases.

The Ennis to Athenry section is due to open in December 2008 with seven trains a day. The Athenry to Tuam section is next, scheduled to carry passengers by 2011. The line to Claremorris will not reopen until 2014 under the plan. No date has been set for the completion of the corridor to Collooney in Sligo.

Mr Ó Raghallaigh said that of the €16 billion spending provided for in Transport 21, €907 million, or 5.5 per cent, was for projects in the west. One-third of that funding would go towards the rail corridor.

"If they can open 36 miles of rail between Ennis and Athenry in a year and a half, why is it taking eight years to open the 34 miles between Athenry and Claremorris?" asked the teacher from Claremorris.

"We have to get real about this and stop pussyfooting around. If there was a political will, the line to Tuam could be opened within six months of Athenry, as there's no level crossings."

The conference takes place in the McWilliam Park Hotel, Claremorris, next Friday

Whatever about the WRC - 5.5% for the West is quite a shocking figure really.

MarkoP11

During the same period last year, West on Track interviewed 200 motorists along the route, of whom 49.5 per cent were daily commuters. Almost 80 per cent of those surveyed said they would switch to rail if it was available

So 50% of 200 is 100 and 80% of that is 80 hardly a large number of passengers but the WRC crew miss one important issue accessibilty

Everyone would use the train if it was
a) Quicker than the bus/car
b) Ran at exactly the time to suit them personally
c) Offered a door to door or as near as

This works in Dublin on the Luas/DART and to a lesser extent on Maynooth/Drogheda

Redo the survey and eliminate all motorists whose place of work is within 10 walk minutes of either Oranmore or Erye Square

Money isn't everything, the Cork Suburban rail project will cost about 175 million all in and generate 8 million extra journeys and run at a profit, the costs are lower outside Dublin since you don't need to resort to complex engineering and expensive land

Transport21 Fan

Slice wrote:

Whatever about the WRC - 5.5% for the West is quite a shocking figure really.

That's a very valid point. As a resident of the West of Ireland I cannot agree more. It's a shockingly low percentage in terms of national infrastructure spending.

Where I take issue is that the whole debate is exclusivly centered around spending almost a billion Euros for a token railcar service three times a day from Sligo with Limerick.

Instead of that the West needs:

• An intensive commuter rail service in and around Galway which goes no further north than Tuam
  
• A peak-hour commuter rail service on the Sligo-Dublin line serving Sligo-Balisodare-Coolooney-Ballymote-Boyle
  
• An intensive rural bus service with bus numbers and timetables connecting with rail services on the Dublin-Westport, Manulla-Ballina and Dublin-Sligo rail lines.
  
• Dangerous rural roads upgraded and footpaths for predestrians extended from town centres out to along the ribbon development patterns for about 3KMs around all towns and villages.
  
• and most important of all; high-density town planning and sustainable population clustering around towns along rail lines and nearby N roads served by Bus Eireann routes

I know this sounds like nuts to the people who unconditionally support the WRC - but this is reality, this is what works all over the world and this is the groundwork needed to develop viable rail and bus based public transport in the West of Ireland.

If this is done in tandem with the timetable outlined in the McCann Report then the West wins.

If we just reopen the Sligo-Limerick rail lines for the sake of it (and this is very much the only agenda driving the campaign) then we are doomed to half-assed end results and the West loses out.

Mass Transit- not Rural Rustic Railways.

Victor

Slice wrote:

Whatever about the WRC - 5.5% for the West is quite a shocking figure really.

But there is no public budget for T21....

What percentage of the other €18.5 billion is the west getting?

How is the west defined this time? Does it include the 8 counties it previously included?

murphaph

The data, compiled by UK-based Golden River Traffic, showed that up to 36 per cent of traffic entering and exiting Galway city through Claregalway via the N17 throughout the day originates from or travels to the south Mayo area.

So it's not 36% of all Galway City traffic as the first line implies but 36% of traffic passing through Claregalway (less surprising). I wonder how much of the traffic into Galway City itself originates along the existing rail corridor, from places such as Athlone, Balinasloe, Athenry and Oranmore?

Slice

I'm suspect about how the 5.5% figure was derived especially when it's being spouted by a member of WoT. Also the West doesn't have any fix geographical boundary unlike BMW that could have been used as an alternative. Still, it would be interesting to see how the budget is broken down between regions and how it addresses the Governments dubious objectives outlined in the National Spacial Strategy.

Navan Junction

Isn't transport 21 supposed to be €34bn?

Raskolnikov

Excuse my ignorance, but isn't it completely pointless having a rail linking places like Claremorris and Athenry? Surely what the West needs is a direct link between major population centres like Sligo Town-Castlebar-Galway City. Instead it sounds like they're going to try and shoe horn the Western Rail Corridor on existing lines that serve no one and go nowhere.

Maybe I'm being a bit simplistic here but I think it's an outrage that towns with only 2,000-3,000 people get a rail service when there are places 10 times their size with nothing.

Schuhart

Slice wrote:

5.5% for the West is quite a shocking figure really.

Does this not just reflect that the West hasn’t got much of a transport problem?

• 75% of people in the West spend 30 minutes or less getting to work
• Only 1 in 20 spend more than an hour
• Average commute time is about 20 minutes
• 1 in 7 people in the Dublin area have to travel for over an hour to get to work each day

I don’t see the logic – cities like Dublin and Cork have the scale necessary to make rail based public transport feasible. How does that create a need to apportion transport expenditure by region and fund projects that just don’t generate the social benefits that justify the expenditure?

MarkoP11 wrote:

the WRC crew miss one important issue accessibilty.

Everyone would use the train if it was

a) Quicker than the bus/car
b) Ran at exactly the time to suit them personally
c) Offered a door to door or as near as

This works in Dublin on the Luas/DART and to a lesser extent on Maynooth/Drogheda

Redo the survey and eliminate all motorists whose place of work is within 10 walk minutes of either Oranmore or Erye Square

This seems like a far more credible interpretation. In particular the comment from WOT that 36-40% of the traffic heading into Galway city along the N17 is from ‘south Mayo’ seems to just illustrate what we’d say anyway – that the explosion in one-off housing in the countryside has created a car dependant culture that requires people to drive long distances to get to work. That kind of low density settlement simply won’t support a rail service.

Transport21 Fan

Transport 21 has no fixed budget because from what I can gather Transport21 is not even "Transport 21" as it does not list all the projects being planned. It seems to be a selection box of politicially astute projects from the DoT's stockroom put on display for the public in the run-up to the election.

The hints that T21 was not the full story have been coming out in dribs and drabs since it was announced.

Luas to Rathfarnham
Outer Orbital Motorway
Dublin Port Tunnel South of the Liffey
Phoenix Park Tunnel Route/Croke Park station
New deep water port for Galway City
New central station for Limerick
BE's suburban bus plan for Leinster
Knock Airport bus services
Athlone-Mullingar rail line
Docklands station to remain

Information is hard to come by as everyone seems to have their own chinese whisperers. However what does seem to becoming increasingly clear is that CIE is now talking a more active role in developing infrastructure and away from IE, BE and BaC managers and leaving the managers of these companies as administrators more so than planners. Not sure why, maybe it has to do with financial governance and project prioritisation.

Transport21 is real - it's not a PR stunt as such, but it's not the full picture either. Anything can be included and more worrying until contracts and orders are signed anything can be left out. Next decade or so should be really facinating to watch - especially if the economy wobbles big-time.

I also suspect that if a FG-led government comes in - they will scrap the Interconnector and the WRC. Bertie and his shower for all their mullarkey are beyond question the most pro-rail government in the history of the state.

The evidence for this beyond question...unfortunately...

Schuhart

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I also suspect that if a FG-led government comes in - they will scrap the Interconnector and the WRC. Bertie and his shower for all their mullarkey are beyond question the most pro-rail government in the history of the state.

The evidence for this beyond question...unfortunately...

I’m not confident that they’d cancel the WRC, as Inda seems to be giving commitments, and it is his constituency. I’d agree the Interconnector could be cancelled in the morning, no matter who is in power. Given its delivery date being off on the far horizon, we could well be here in twenty years time listing it along with the Tallaght DART line as one of those things that would have been great. However, I’d expect that empty rail cars will be rolling in and out of Claremorris to beat the band.

There’s just no non-gob****e option in this election.

Kenny fully committed to Western Rail Corridor, but no guarantees on swift re-opening of Sligo section Mar 22, 4:33 am

The Fine Gael leader, Enda Kenny, has re-iterated his party's commitment to the re-opening of the entire Western Rail Corridor from Collooney to Ennis. Mr Kenny, who's on a day-long tour of the Sligo-North Leitrim constituency, says his party in Government would complete the re-opening of the first phase of the rail line as far as Claremorris two years ahead of the current Government's target.

However, he has failed to indicate if he would facilitate the entire re-opening as far as Collooney in Government, as he's not aware of the engineering difficulties which may exist along the line in County Sligo. Speaking to Ocean FM, Mr Kenny also said local authorities along the route of the line also had a big role to play in its re-opening, by facilitating it in their County Development Plans.

Chris_533976

Thats it, it wont happen.

Getting all those local authorities to co-operate towards a common goal will never happen here

gobdaw

Transport21 Fan wrote:

.

I also suspect that if a FG-led government comes in - they will scrap the Interconnector

Where do you get that?

Zoney

Transport21 Fan wrote:

If we just reopen the Sligo-Limerick rail lines for the sake of it (and this is very much the only agenda driving the campaign) then we are doomed to half-assed end results and the West loses out.

Mass Transit- not Rural Rustic Railways.

It's not sensible to tar the whole line with the same brush. Limerick-Galway intercity rail should be possible. Considering the high patronage of the bus service for getting between the two cities, a rail service should facilitate a) more travel between the two cities and b) more people to travel by public transport rather than private car (plenty of people are not going to bring themselves down to sitting on a cramped bus). There's enough traffic between the two cities to demand dual carriageway - and that is not merely down to regional traffic from the hinterlands (besides, a rail service will capture some of that with the stops in Ennis, Gort and Athenry).

Of course, a link to Shannon Airport (even if just a dedicated shuttle bus matching stops by trains - an unlikely scene in Ireland I do admit) is the missing piece of the puzzle.

Slice

I also suspect that if a FG-led government comes in - they will scrap the Interconnector and the WRC. Bertie and his shower for all their mullarkey are beyond question the most pro-rail government in the history of the state.

I wouldn't say it's that simple but if you want to be partisan about it I guess it is. Of course you'd need to overlook the demise of rail-freight during FF-PD's two consecutive terms in office as well. I would say the fact that FF have been in Government for most of the economic boom and a European trend towards investment in rail over road (especially in Britain, a country Ireland usually follows) has something to do with it too.

OTK

gobdaw wrote:

Where do you get that?

Olivia Mitchell, FG Transport person said in the dail on 15/2/2005

Ms O. Mitchell: I support the concept of the extension to the Docklands or Spencer Dock, wherever it may be. I hope there will be an early decision, as so many other issues hinge on it. I also support the notion of an interconnector from that station out to Heuston. However, what is the Minister’s opinion on the priority that might be given to the interconnector considering it is largely concerned with the important issue of interconnecting and integrating this system? It is mainly about facilitating people who are already off the road, out of cars and into public transport.They travel in from Maynooth or some other direction on a train. In terms of taking cars off the streets of Dublin, their contribution might not be as great as a metro or several Luas lines.Given that we are spending \1 billion on a port tunnel to clear the quays, is there a great deal of sense making it our priority to build a tunnel under the quays? Are there other possible solutions that the quays might now present to meet that need? I am only looking for an opinion, not the answer

From this answer, Fine Gael seems to believe that the interconector will not attract any additional passengers to use the train- just facilitate those who already use it to get to a more convenient location. If this were true, the project would have zero benefit, yet she still supports it and just questions its priority.

dowlingm

Zoney wrote:

Limerick-Galway intercity rail should be possible.

If Limerick-Galway service is as underpromoted and underwhelming in delivery as Limerick-Waterford or Limerick-Roscrea and stops at every crossroads then what's the point?

The low loads on the Mayolink service between Ballina and Westport should be warning to those who say "provide it and they will take it" - it requires marketing support and proper development strategies but Mayo Council seem to only mouth platitudes about the WRC but run in the other direction when it's time for them to front up.

I fear Galway and Clare CCs will be just as little help when IE start running trains up and down the Ennis-Athenry section, and they will start finding ways to blame IE for the unprofitability of the service they requested. Regional rail is a tough sell - it requires everybody on board rather than shouting "good luck t'ya" from the sideline.

dowlingm

OTK - the interconnector means a resident of north Dublin can access a workplace in south/west Dublin & Kildare or vice versa with 0 changes of transport mode. At the moment it requires 2 changes (rail-LUAS-rail). This adds two wait times and two embarkations/disembarkations. If it saved 30 minutes per direction per day that's 7 hours a week a person isn't hanging around waiting and walking to the next embarkation point.

Does this "facilitate" existing ridership? Sure. What else does it do?

* It encourages people who don't like making en route changes at all to use it.
* It encourages people to take local transit services to access the railhead instead of the car now that they have some more leeway in their commute.
* It opens up at least one station on the Southside which *currently doesn't exist in any mode* and provides 1-change integration with Green LUAS (via BX is 2-change).

In my belief as a transit using commuter, every time you make my journey more direct you increase my satisfaction with the service (after all embarking/disembarking with the usual pushing and shoving to get in/out is one of the worst bits) and increase my chance of persuading others to take transit. Thus there is every reason to believe that interconnector will contribute to substantially higher ridership growth.

gobdaw

OTK wrote:

Olivia Mitchell, FG Transport person said in the dail on 15/2/2005:
"Ms O. Mitchell: I support the concept of the extension to the Docklands or Spencer Dock, wherever it may be. I hope there will be an early decision, as so many other issues hinge on it. I also support the notion of an interconnector from that station out to Heuston. "

That doesn't seem, to me, like they will "scrap the interconnector"

http://www.finegael.ie/search/index.cfm

Leo Vradkar (06.11.06)
“It is regrettable that additional services cannot be provided through Connolly, however this is due to congestion and over-capacity at that station.
Once build, the interconnector will link the new station to Pearse, the metro at St Stephens Green and Heuston station.”

http://www.finegael.ie/news/index.cfm/type/details/nkey/29633

Frances Fitzgerald

“In summary I’m proposing a comprehensive plan based on both short-term and long term solutions……..
Long-term (2009-2016)
Electrify the Kildare line and introduce DART services
Complete Interconnector Tunnel under the city, linking Huston to the Docklands via St. Stephen Green.”

Seemsto me like support for the general principal and maybe giving it a higher priority.

Navan Junction

Don't hold your breath for anything better from FG or Labour.

Labour simply commit to new buses.

FG aren't really commited to anything.

It is irrelevant what individual party representatives say - it's the actual clear commitment of party policy that counts.

If all the promises that individual party representatives became reality, we would want for nothing

gobdaw

Navan Junction wrote:

Don't hold your breath for anything better from FG or Labour.

You may be right or wrong - thats an individual political decision for the election, but what i am asking is what facts or statements is the suggestion that a FG led government will scrap the interconnector is based.

Navan Junction wrote:

Labour simply commit to new buses.

That is actually false.

Labour policy document "Getting Dublin Moving" (November 2006) clearly state that Labour has committed to "Reschedule T21 to prioritise the rail interconnector and to provide for the early electrification of the Balbriggan, Maynooth, Navan & Hazelhatch Rail lines"

That is the fact of this particular matter, and not as you are clearly saying. We would do better by dealing with facts and not retreating into our own particular politicial prejudices

Zoney

dowlingm wrote:

If Limerick-Galway service is as underpromoted and underwhelming in delivery as Limerick-Waterford or Limerick-Roscrea and stops at every crossroads then what's the point?

That's a bit of a defeatist attitude, not to mention a gross exaggeration of the situation.

The situation is that a decent service frequency of 7-8 services a day, each direction, is present already on the Ennis line. It should be quicker journey time than it is, but at peak times, getting into Limerick city by road is not exactly hasty either. I have travelled on the Galway bus - the rail service will be competitive even if it is only similar to an extension of the current Ennis service.

The current Ennis service is in a radically different category to Limerick-Waterford and Limerick-Roscrea. I do not expect that a Limerick-Galway service will fall into the latter category either.

Chris_533976

The rail service wont stop at Shannon. That can take anything between 20 and 40 minutes on the Bus Eireann bus, depending on how many tourists get on, in no hurry, and anger the driver by giving him €50 notes. "Quit with the big notes, this isnt a bank" one yelled, quite rightly.

Citylink Cork - Galway are going ~2 hourly soon and are far better than Bus E, simply because they dont go to Shannon.

That said, the Limerick - Galway rail is needed, and hopefully extendable to Cork-Limerick-Galway without too much effort. If they could do a 2 1/2 - 3 hour service Cork - Galway, you're onto a winner.

Zoney

Chris_533976 wrote:

hopefully extendable to Cork-Limerick-Galway without too much effort. If they could do a 2 1/2 - 3 hour service Cork - Galway, you're onto a winner.

Hmmm... lets not talk about Limerick - Cork... not a fantastic situation at the moment, nor that likely to improve what with going via LJ. And unlike Limerick-Galway, the road option is to remain a goat track at least in part for the forseeable future. It's nonsense to pretend that poor transport links like that between two cities that are really located pretty near to each other don't have an adverse effect on commerce.

Navan Junction

gobdaw wrote:

That is the fact of this particular matter, and not as you are clearly saying. We would do better by dealing with facts and not retreating into our own particular politicial prejudices

Why don't you telephone the Meath East and Meath West candidates for the General Election and ask them is Navan rail part of official party policy?

You see, I have and I know the reality. Nothing to do with any political prejudices.

I am very disappointed with Labour policies re railways, and believe me I take no pleasure in that.

dodgyme

Navan Junction wrote:

I am very disappointed with Labour policies re railways, and believe me I take no pleasure in that.

Labour need to realise that bus travel is a pain in the a*se. I took them for pretty much all my life til I was 20something and got a car, by that stage I hated them. The car was great by comparison. However Rail travel is the best and most efficient and comfortable means to get around. Buses should sync in with the rail system but we all know that they wont and the reasons. I am not against Buses but Labour's cosying up to DB is stupid and annoying to most commuters who want the WRC or the navan line built

gobdaw

Navan Junction wrote:

Why don't you telephone the Meath East and Meath West candidates for the General Election and ask them is Navan rail part of official party policy?

But when, earlier, I quoted named candidates, you said:

Navan Junction wrote:

It is irrelevant what individual party representatives say - it's the actual clear commitment of party policy that counts.

but when I reference actual party policy, you want me to reference individuals. I suggest that you name and quote individual candidates, particularly where they don't support party policy, as you are suggesting.

Navan Junction wrote:

I am very disappointed with Labour policies re railways, and believe me I take no pleasure in that.

Thats fair enought, its your privilage. Its not true, thought, that "Labour simply commit to new buses". Their policy does cover rail. That can be addressed, but not by denying its existance.

I would again urge you to "out" the candidates who do not support party policy as you are stating.

gobdaw

dodgyme wrote:

I am not against Buses but Labour's cosying up to DB is stupid and annoying to most commuters who want the WRC or the navan line built

Wha..?

I don't think either rail lines would be affected by any Dublin bus services or lack of them.

dodgyme

gobdaw wrote:

Wha..?

I don't think either rail lines would be affected by any Dublin bus services or lack of them.

money has to come from somewhere

Schuhart

dodgyme wrote:

most commuters who want the WRC or the navan line built

I don't think many commuters have any particular interest in the WRC. Navan is quite a different matter. I don't think we should mix up sensible proposals - Navan, Cork, for the sake of argument, with the white elephant WRC.

gobdaw

dodgyme wrote:

money has to come from somewhere

The celtic tiger has fled? Our problems are caused by money shortage?

I didn't know that - I thought that the government has been consistantly underestimating the tax revenue, and was not able to spend it while at the same time not able to solve the national infrastructure deficit.

OTK

dowlingm wrote:

OTK - the interconnector means ..

Yes I understand the interconnector's benefits. I was quoting from Olivia Mitchell because I was taken aback that she didn't get it. Her answer showed that she didn't understand that joining lines and improving frequencies would attract additional passengers - she just saw it as a convenience to the existing users. Yet despite failing to see any of the benefits she still supported the project!

dermo88

I have written this on Platform11 and on Irish railway news. I will address the attitude of Fine Gael towards railways, which has been one of pure neglect, hostility and corporate vandalism of the highest order

The only document you need to read as regards Fine Gael's opinions on rail transport is their 1984 election manifesto. In Building on reality, they clearly stated "No new investment in the railways", and a commitment to an "Intercity bus network".

Their last Transport Minister was one, Mr Michael Lowry. He dismissed Dermot O'Leary, who was appointed beforehand, and interfered with CIE management in a hostile and aggressive manner. This was pure vindictive political opportunism of the highest order. Lowry has never been held to account for his behaviour. One suicide also took place, but we will never know why Michael O'Donnell killed himself, he took his secrets to the grave.

Fine Gael abandoned the extension of the DART to Tallaght, to the suburbs, and the Interconnector, which has been proposed since 1975 in the Voorhees report. This proposed extending the DART tio Clondalkin, to Blanchardstown, to Tallaght, and the Harcourt Street line.

The same party, if you want naked political opportunism, went to waste 20 Million Irish Pounds on extending the DART to Greystones. This was to win a by election in North Wicklow in 1995. A 2 Million Pound DMU set would do the same job. IDIOTS.

The same Michael Lowry, also signed a contract with Eircell to allow IE infrastructiure to be used for telecommunications cables. IE ended up having to repair weakened embankments after this vandalism. Judging by his activities before, it is very likely that he profited personally from this.

Fine Gaels record therefore, on railways speaks for itself. It is a record of vandalism, neglect and interference.

Both Midleton and Dunboyne justify investment. Doubts (surprisingly) have been expressed regarding Navan.

________________________________________________________________
The Western Rail corridor.

I am glad Limerick to Galway is going ahead. I hope that they can also find the time to provide a more efficient service on Limerick to Waterford as well, otherwise investment in these regional routes will be wasted, and the Garrett Fitzgeralds, Sean Barretts, and Mitchells of this world will be proven correct.

A small conference took place in Claremorris yesterday, Friday 13th I glanced at it. Not many experts there, just a bunch of people who wanted a day off work on expenses, including the CIE Chairman (Dr Lynch) and our Minister of Transport, who would be far better employed turning sods of turf at opening ceremonies at Cobh Junction, Midleton, Clonsilla, Dunboyne or even Navan......but where is he.....yes, hes in Clare-effing-morris (actually decent sized place 3,170 (14,156 rural).www.cso.ie. One of the fastest growing towns in the West of Ireland). Unfortunately, he did not have the guts, or nerve to deal with the WRC problem efficiently, which is:

5a. The position, and the only way that this should ever be tackled is to do a very valid pointmaking demonstration.

1. Bring a closure notice for the Athlone-Westport/Ballina railway. CIE chairman walks up, gets file, puts it in computer, clicks "run", and up comes the nice little closure notice on screen.
2. Remind everyone there how close that actually came. In fact, he could pretend there was one about to be signed for it just after Knockcroghery, dated for February 1998, and in effect June 1st 1998.
3. Inform them that people in Navan, Monaghan, Midleton, and Donegal do not have railways, while they have plenty in relation to the size of the population and region.
4. Tell them that they have a choice. Either continue lobbying for the Athenry to Collooney branchline, or the closure notice for the Mayo road will be signed, sealed and delivered in a week. Remove the Westontrack website or else.
5. Martin Cullen walks on, and gives figures for the operational costs of the Mayo Road as it is, the investment in new rolling stock, the expansion in services and asks...."What more can we possibly do for a place with your population density"
6. Thank you ladies and gentlemen, I will leave you now to discuss your options.

And I guarantee, the room would clear like a shot.

My God, they are a bit delusional about how big their towns are. So lets take a look at how big some of these places are:

Sixmilebridge 1,327 (2002 census)
Ennis - 34,204, as indicated by the 2006 census
Gort - Town 1,182, Rural 1,450 (Total 2,632) - (1996 census)
Ardrahan 375 (2002 census)
Craughwell - Town 358, Rural 1,169 (Total 1,527) - (2002 census)
Athenry - Town 2,154, Rutal 2,910 (2002 census)
Ballyglunin.......does'nt even count when I checked....population.....zero.
Tuam - Town 3,104, Rural 2,843 (Total 5,947) - (2002 census)
Claremorris 3,170 (14,156 rural).
Kiltimagh - Town 1,000, Rural 1,386
Swinford - Town 2,724, Rural 15,292
Tubbercurry - Town 1,171, Rural 1,894

VERSUS

Navan 3,742 / 23,196 (Town-Rural)....and not counting all the places in between such as Kilmessan (for Trim, pop 6,447/5,447), Dunshaughlin (3,063), Dunboyne (8,691)
Midleton 3,914/6,422 (Town-Rural), Carrigtwohill
________________________________________________________________
Project evaluation and comparison.

For the amount of population per kilometre on offer, Midleton offers a better deal than Navan at the moment, and Iarnrod Eireann were right to prioritise it.

Limerick-Ennis-Gort-Athenry-Galway is worth its while ONLY if the track has a reasonably high (70mph/110kph) speed limit. Otherwise, its not going to be much better than Bus Eireann.

And, when a Bus service is established on the same route, offering a cheaper fare, at the same speed and higher frequency, rail users can be regarded as some kind of old fashioned eccentric. Let me demonstrate an example from a developing nation.

I had the experience last week on Kuala Lumpur to Singapore (scheduled between 6 and 7 1/2 hours, 240 miles...actually took 8hrs 45mins), and after that experience my words are "Noone but a sadist or a trainspotter chooses the train over the bus". The bus, took 4 hours 30 minutes, had reclining seats, it was as good as CityGold. People are still going to use Bus Eireann if the competing service is cheaper, faster and more frequent, just as they do on Waterford to Rosslare, Limerick to Waterford. Its failing. Fix those routes first.

The people who want the section north of Athenry are the same, standard hand wringing beal bocht west of Shannon victim mindsets. Cromwell was around 300 years ago. The Famine, 160 years ago. Emigration, its over (for now). Get off the cross, someone else needs the wood. The others are rail enthusiasts who just want to take a steam train, or diesel trip from Dublin-Limerick-Sligo, and just want to do it for the sake of doing it.

Regular commuters won't exist. Tourists won't sustain it. In short, its a waste, and if anyone truly believes in the future of rail development in Ireland, this should be fought tooth and nail.
________________________________________________________________

There is only so much track that the engineers at Iarnrod Eireann can relay and rebuild in a year. Midleton will take 9 months to relay, rebuild and commission, after clearance and permission is given. Ennis to Athenry will take 18 months. The 3 miles of Pace/Dunboyne are effectively brand new. This takes 12 months. Navan, again, 20 miles, will be complex, more complex than it looks. It will take 3 years from Dunboyne. All in all, the engineers at IE will be tied up for 6 1/2 years with these three projects alone. Thats being optimistic.

CIE had the expertise of finishing these kind of projects on time, and on budget. DART finished under budget. So did the Dublin-Cork upgrade in the 1990's, OnTrack2000, Dublin-Belfast. But there are only so much resources, expertise, manpower and specialised equipment available at once. It has to be used wisely.

Chris_533976

Excellent post

monument

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I know this sounds like nuts to the people who unconditionally support the WRC - but this is reality, this is what works all over the world and this is the groundwork needed to develop viable rail and bus based public transport in the West of Ireland.

It's sad really, but people see large projects like the Luas and Metro etc and then want large projects for the west.

gobdaw

dermo88 wrote:

The only document you need to read as regards Fine Gael's opinions on rail transport is their 1984 election manifesto. In Building on reality, they clearly stated "No new investment in the railways", and a commitment to an "Intercity bus network".

I presume that they kept their promises, which must give you confidence to cooly judge whatever will be contained in their coming election manifesto on transport. Personally i hope it is issued quickly.
Any way, wasn't that the 80s, with the World Bank on the verge of bankrupting the country, health cuts, "Minister for Hardship" Tallaght stratagy, etc. A different Ireland, surely?

dermo88 wrote:

Their last Transport Minister was one, Mr Michael Lowry. He dismissed Dermot O'Leary, who was appointed beforehand, and interfered with CIE management in a hostile and aggressive manner. This was pure vindictive political opportunism of the highest order........

Michael Lowry...Michael Lowry....wasn't he the fellow sacked by...Fine Gael?
Can't think of many Irish political parties who sack their leading reprsentatives (if you exclude Charlie Haughey, Des O'Malley etc)

dermo88 wrote:

Fine Gaels record therefore, on railways speaks for itself........ Doubts (surprisingly) have been expressed regarding Navan.

News to me - any chance of a link to back up that statement?

Wait a minute, I've just looked at my calandar, its not 1975, nor 1984, its 2007! I hope you don't mind if I decide on how I'll vote on more contemporary factors?

OTK

dermo88 wrote:

I am glad Limerick to Galway is going ahead. I hope that they can also find the time to provide a more efficient service on Limerick to Waterford as well, otherwise investment in these regional routes will be wasted, and the Garrett Fitzgeralds, Sean Barretts, and Mitchells of this world will be proven correct.

According to the Clare People, Irish Rail recommended against reopening this section on the grounds of low projected passenger numbers (which doesn't bode well for the less viable portions of the WRC). Of course a line is not just either viable or not - viability depends on the quality of service offered as you point out.

anyhow here the Clare People article:
http://www.clarepeople.com/content/view/145/73/

Cullen ignored railway business case

THE Minister for Transport, Martin Cullen gave the go-ahead for the re-opening of the Ennis to Athenry rail-link, despite Iarnród Éireann submitting a business case stating that it would be loss-making and didn’t meet the economic criteria required for approval of large-scale capital projects.
Documents released to The Clare People through the Freedom of Information Act, show that consultants who reviewed the business case concluded that the re-opening of the line would be premature, but that the case might look more positive in the future as the population rose.
The Secretary General of the Department of Transport, Julie O’Neill, in a memo to Transport Minister Martin Cullen said that Iarnród Éireann’s business case gave rise to a number of concerns; the very poor results of the cost benefit analysis and the ongoing operating deficit which would be higher than the average subvention per passenger paid to Irish Rail in 2005.
Ms O’Neill also had concerns in relation to the modest level of patronage for the service anticipated – a projected 100,000 in year one rising to 200,000 in year five. She said, “This is equivalent to 600 passengers spread over seven services a day in each direction.” Ms O’Neill also stated that the rail-link had a poor competitive position compared to the Ennis to Galway Road.
She said that the expected rail journey between Limerick and Galway would be one hour and 50 minutes compared to the one hour and 22-minute drive between the city perimeters by 2014. Ms O’Neill said that the Western Rail Corridor scored highly in relation to non-quantifiable impacts, particularly by virtue of the connectivity benefits at local, regional and international levels.
Ms O’Neill put forward four options for Minister Cullen including deferring a decision on the project on the basis that it was premature and advancing instead the pace of road development instead.
Iarnród Éireann’s business case concedes that the scale of infrastructure costs along with the ongoing annual operating costs mean the projected passenger levels will not be adequate to generate a positive socio-economic result. The business case stated that the “economic return on the project is poor due to relatively modest volumes”.
After taking the advice of officials and consultants, Minister Cullen announced that works would commence on the re-instatement of the Ennis-Athenry line in 2007 with the line to re-open in 2008.

Skyhater

OTK wrote:

From this answer, Fine Gael seems to believe that the interconector will not attract any additional passengers to use the train- just facilitate those who already use it to get to a more convenient location. If this were true, the project would have zero benefit, yet she still supports it and just questions its priority.

That's a load of rubbish and a misguided belief if it's true. The interconnector will provide a massive increase in capacity and thus will attract additional passengers. It will also provide a more integrated system, thus attracting additional passengers!!!!
It is the most important piece of infrastructure in T21.... Blows Metro North, Metro West and every Luas project out of the water!!!!

dermo88

Gobdaw

It does'nt matter what year it was, or is. I've seen the damage, I remember the records. Every Dubliner, who wants to get from A to B cheaply, and quickly should never ever forgive Fine Gael for what they did, and prevented in the 1980's, irrespective of how broke we were. They could finance farmers and the CAP, they could finance Knock International. But when it came to financing Dublin, it was tough **** sunshine, and the culchies got the cream.

I have a few choice words from Mr Jim Mitchell

"The railways are an albatros around the taxpayers neck"
"DART is a white elephant"

And they are two. He might be dead, but his policies live on. I suppose one good legacy was the creation of Iarnrod Eireann as a partially seperate company.
________________________________________________________________
Michael Lowry was fired by Fine Gael, but not before.

1. Appointing Mr Eamon Walsh, and firing Mr Dermot O'Leary. Eamon Walsh had absolutely no experience in running a transport company. His appointment divided the CIE board for 9 months.
2. Allowing Eircell to lay cables alongside IE infrastructure. In so doing, the embankments were damaged by the cable laying plough used.
3. The DART to Greystones fiasco. Originally budgeted to cost IEP8.4 Million, in 1995, a DART was pushed around Bray Head and brought to Greystons in a pre election publicity stunt.
4. Mr Michael MacDonnell, a former IE executive was to testify at a case where Dermot O'Leary was suing the state as a result of Mr Lowry's actions. He committed suicide not long beforehand. If Ireland was an accountable country.

Lowry would answer for this, and more. But hes not answering.
_________________________________________________________________
The Labour party don't give a **** who they sleep with as long as they have power. They talk the talk about being the party of the people, but the PD's are more use to the working class. Labour are only useful to their bedfellows in the poor oppressed CIE Unions. Just ignore them, they are a waste of space.
_________________________________________________________________
Fianna Fail are bent and crooked, but they know how to get the job done, and keep the money flowing. Never forget that under their tenure, the biggest expansion in rail investment ever has taken place. If you looked at Irish Rail in April 1997, and looked at it now, there simply is no comparison.
_________________________________________________________________
Olivia Mitchell uses the meaningless word "support", which is politico speak for "do nothing". When they say "commit", then it usually means action.

Transport21 Fan

Good posts there dermo, glad to see you are still around.

I agree with everything you say on this thread. Although what FG did to railways in this country was in the past, it just can't be ignored as if it never happened either, and would be dangerous folly to assume they would not revert back to their traditional "no further investment in rail" carry on if the ended up in Government. Oliva Mitchell's comments on the Interconnector tells me that culture is still there.

As for the WRC. I have nothing against West=on=Track looking after their own part of the country. The problem with the collections of railway bits n' bob relics between Limerick and Coolooney is that it is not a modern rail line and never will be. You can't get a quality modern heavy rail service out of a rural tramway/light railway north of Tuam. Not without spending incredible sums of money to eliminate the level crossings. Even to get rid of just the major N17 level crossings would require the railway line being elevated in the same manner as the PRR elevated the Long Island Railroad in the 1930's.

You simply can't provide a modern commuter service with 3 level crossings on the N17 just before Claremorris. The traffic implications at rush hour on a national primary route alone... and the compromise of just running 3 trains a day is not the rail "service" people in 21st Ireland are looking to use.

Now if the Tuam-Collooney section was engineered to the same standard as the Limerick-Tuam section, then we would looking at a real "Corridor" - but the 200 or so level crossings as soon as you exit Tuam station hardly screams "commuter heavy rail" to me. It'll never provide the kind of public transport the West needs and it won't stimulate economic development either (the south Wexford line hasn't). The whole approach of a train leaving Sligo or Ballina and making it's way to Limerick 5 hours later belongs in the 19th century.

It's not going to happen, or at least it'll be decades if it ever does and even then I could only see the northern half being opened as a Train-Tram style route. Which would be viable if planning and population settlement patterns were sorted out in East Galway, Mayo (yeah right!) and Sligo.

The idea of 20-30 services in each direction a day with tram-train driver-controlled level crossing operation and line-of-sight running is far too modern for the average WRC supporter. Shame really, as the more I look at the Northern Half of the WRC, the more I see a potential for some of it to be reopened as a Tram-Train service. But alas that's not on the agenda.

Zoney

Transport21 Fan wrote:

but the 200 or so level crossings as soon as you exit Tuam station hardly screams "commuter heavy rail" to me.

My Johnston's Atlas and Gazetteer of the Railways of Ireland shows about 19 LCs between Tuam and Claremorris. That's a fair few, but nothing like 200. By contrast there's about 20 between Athlone and Castlerea, a distance only a third longer, on the Westport/Ballina line. There appear to be another two dozen crossings between Claremorris and Collooney. Certainly not great, but hardly a disasterous impediment to the line, considering that apart from the N17, few of these are likely to hold up traffic (indeed are many of these not similar status, i.e. very minor lanes/land access, to crossings simply closed on other lines?). Besides, at least one of the N17 crossings is automatic barriers is it not?

Anyway, there has been no decision to reopen past Tuam (indeed only Ennis-Athenry seems at all certain), so I think it is ridiculous people scaremongering about the northern section.

Transport21 Fan

Zoney wrote:

My Johnston's Atlas and Gazetteer of the Railways of Ireland shows about 19 LCs between Tuam and Claremorris. That's a fair few, but nothing like 200.

The 200 level crossings are between Tuam and Coolooney. This is the area of contention, not just the section to Claremorris. If it's not 200, then it's something like 190 or so - a huge number.

Zoney wrote:

By contrast there's about 20 between Athlone and Castlerea, a distance only a third longer, on the Westport/Ballina line.

There is a major difference between a rail line going to Dublin in terms of attacting passengers compared to one going to Claremorris from Athenry.

Palerail is the golden boy of Inter-City rail travel in this country and always will be. Regional rail is not an Irish thing. Our population is not geared towards it working anyways. Too many small towns, too spread out. It's a recipe for failure in terms of gettig bums-on-seats and the proof of this is Limerick-Rosslare. Regional Ireland is made for internal bus travel and not rail. This reality cannot be avoided.

Zoney wrote:

There appear to be another two dozen crossings between Claremorris and Collooney...

I do not have the list on me right now but there is way more than a few dozen.

Zooney, I live next to this railway line (which gets way too much emphasis placed on it), I see it every day of the week and I am telling you it is engineered to a shockingly poor standard. Embankments which have washed away years ago, entire stretches which are currently linear mini-lakes running for several miles. Bridges which have abutments crumbling. It passes through many people's driveways and front yards. There is also a Car Dealership in Charlestown Co. Mayo on top of the tracks.

This is the truth of The Burma *all knell* Road. (say it in hushed tones).

If you want to come up here anytime I'll gladly give you the tour. Your mind will be blown by the reality of the line. Matters not that there are automatic level crossings on the N17. There are three of them zig-zagging across the road right outside Claremorris. You try putting a commuter service with any sort of meaningful frequency at rush hour. Grand for a freight train at 3AM in the morning back in 1988 - but not in 2007 with the traffic levels on the N17 in 2007.

People are negative about the WRC not out of spite because it won't work the way commuters will need it to work and will not deliver the West into the promised land.

Spend the money on rail and other public transport projects in the West which would make a difference. A Luas for Galway isn't a bad idea at all as it would tighten-up the horrible sprawl in that city, and neither is a rail link to Shannon.

The McCann Report is the best roadmap to deal with the WRC for the time being. The simple truth is there is no Western Rail "Corridor" at all. Somebody just saw a few closed lines on a map and joined them up and this being Ireland it became public policy.

Navan is where we should be rushing to provide commuter rail services. It simply immoral to the point of surreal that Ballygluinin (25 houses being built next to the station) is getting that first.

dermo88

Its immoral that the people along the proposed Pace to Navan line have to get development levies raised, when the people North of Athenry are getting it for nothing and no commitment.

Its immoral that the clearance of the Burma Road took place.

Transport21fan, I'm a bit against the whole anti-regional rail argument. I think it should be tried out, and viable timetables offered. Theres always some validity in the argument "Give them enough rope".

They have'nt enough on Rosslare-Limerick, since it has not been improved enough to be attractive.

Transport21 Fan

dermo88 wrote:

Transport21fan, I'm a bit against the whole anti-regional rail argument. I think it should be tried out, and viable timetables offered. Theres always some validity in the argument "Give them enough rope".

I would love for regional rail to be successful in Ireland, but I have yet to see one proposal or idea which would get the bums-in-seats.

The regional lines in Ireland are too long and connect small towns and small cities. Only Dublin, Belfast and Cork provide the critical mass to make such lines work and this is were looking at a line between Limerick and Cork might work.

There is a very hot rumour that a developer wants to build a new station in Limerick to the east of Colbert which would allow through running to the Foynes line and open up a whole new commuter service in Limerick. How about reopening the old line to Cork and have a real Galway-Limerick-Cork direct service? That to me would be a runner.

As for Limerick-Rosslare I see a direct Dublin to Clonmel service either by the Junction or Waterford to be the only realistic way to make that line take off. Maybe in time Waterford to Rosslare as a commuter route as well.

But it all comes back to planning and building up populations in towns and stop this one-off housing bull**** as it's murdering the potential of rail in Ireland.

Chris_533976

Transport21 Fan wrote:

How about reopening the old line to Cork and have a real Galway-Limerick-Cork direct service? That to me would be a runner.

2 1/2 - 3 hour service Cork - Limerick - Galway would be one of the best things to happen to rail in this country. It is MADNESS that it doesnt exist.

Cork - Galway???

Cork - Limerick Junction on train, bus to Limerick, bus to Galway, or train to Ennis and then bus to Galway.

or

Cork to Heuston on train, Heuston to Galway on train.

Its cheaper and easier to take Aer Arann from Cork to Galway, which if you think about it, its madness to have a flight like that for only 130 miles.

Cork - Galway needs a train, and badly.

Schuhart

Chris_533976 wrote:

Cork - Galway needs a train, and badly.

I'd leave out the 'and badly' because it imports the West of Ireland whinge mentality into something that might have merit. But certainly linking Cork to Galway by rail should be investigated ahead of a proposal to rebuild a meandering rail line connecting up some villages in Mayo at great expense so that empty rail cars can roll up and down it adding to our carbon emissions.

Chris_533976

Good point No whinging here, just common sense

murphaph

The people of Mountmellck have waited long enough for their Luas. Where's the justice I ask ya?

monument

Schuhart wrote:

I'd leave out the 'and badly' because it imports the West of Ireland whinge mentality into something that might have merit.

He says "and badly", but the two lads before him go into over drive and not a word about it...

dermo88 wrote:

Its immoral... Its immoral... a few bolts might go missing

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The Burma *all knell* Road... will not deliver the West into the promised land... The simple truth... simply immoral

Don't get me wrong here, I generally agree with a lot of what dermo88 and Transport21 Fan are saying but the way they are saying it is just as bad as the "whinge mentality" of the west.

In fact, dermo88's "few bolts bolts might go missing" threat is something you'd get from some people in north west Mayo.

[T21 - As he is quoted above I was thinking it was clear, but I've now changed - 'the (quote) threat' to 'dermo88's (quote) threat', and also move it into a new par]

Transport21 Fan

The problem is some of the old line from Limerick to Cork has a road built on part of it and was not engineered originally very well. On the positive side the passenger number would make an expensive rebuild far more viable than the Burma Road would ever be.

Galway-Athenry-Gort-Ennis-Sixmilebridge-New Limerick Central Station-Raheen-Patrickswell-Charleville-Mallow-Cork

Now that's a regional rail service which would be packed with Inter-city passengers, business travellers and commuters. Do the maths, the numbers are in the Palerail league.

Hopefully any upcoming CIE rail development plans for Limerick will see the potential of closing Colbert and moving the new bus and train station to site of Check Platform allowing through running on all services in and out of the city. Would be like a mini-Interconnector for Limerick.

Am I the only one who still can't believe Ireland is developing Claremorris as the rail capital west of the Shannon.

Transport21 Fan

monument wrote:

Don't get me wrong here, I generally agree with a lot of what dermo88 and Transport21 Fan are saying but the way they are saying it is just as bad as the "whinge mentality" of the west. In fact the "few bolts bolts might go missing" threat is something you'd get from some people in north west Mayo.

Monument, that was dermo88 who made the "missing nuts and bolts" comment and not me and I would be grateful if you did not include me in that particular statement. Cheers.

I would much rather support strapping Irish politicians to the tracks and run a train over them, rather than support any action which could endanger the lives of rail staff and passengers.

It is cowardly, feckless and self-serving Irish politicians who are the real problem here and why we are where we are.