20 car pileup on M7

is_that_so

BrianD3 wrote:

As well as that, cars behind the "slow" driver will often percieve the visibility as being better than it is because they are using the car in front as a guide. If they then become the lead car they realise just how bad the visibility is.

Many drivers cannot drive properly in clear dry conditions so is it any wonder that their driving becomes worse still when another variable (fog) is thrown in. I still can't get over the number of drivers driving in the fog with no lights, parking lights or in some cases, one parking light :rolleyes:

There was van on the M1 last night with no back lights at all. Just about saw his shadow. I was also overtaken on a single lane road twice , one guy on a corner, in the fog. Very scary stuff.

TBH it is an event (can't justify the word accident) that has really been waiting to happen. It reminds me of a really tragic event - many years ago in Bilbao, also in the fog. On that occasion 24 people died and there were about 100 cars in the pileup. Drivers blamed the road.

gline

geez one day of fog and irish roads are turned into crash scenes, how pathetic :rolleyes:

DonJose

And you will still get idiots coming onto this forum saying, "Speed doesn't kill."

colm_mcm

I don't think anyone would say that driving too fast for the conditions doesn't kill.

That "Speed Kills" phrase always annoys me. obviously if the cars were stopped there would be no collisions.

DonJose

colm_mcm wrote:

That "Speed Kills" phrase always annoys me. obviously if the cars were stopped there would be no collisions.

It really is one of the most annoying phrases I hear on this forum. Had the drivers been driving at a reasonable speed, 60-80kph, there might still have been a few knocks, but nowhere near the number of casualties. You really have to be daft to be driving at 120 and I'm sure there were a lot driving above this, "because the speedos are out by 10%"...

colm_mcm

speedometers usually show a higher than actual speed, so they would've been going slower. even at 30mph, it's hard to stop when the brake lights of a car stopped 10 feet in front of you appears "out of nowhere"

RobAMerc

I have a problem with all the calls in the press over the last two days telling everyone to "slow down".

This is not going to help, in my view the drivers who will slow down are the ones who are already so nervous as to drive at 50kph below the speed limit often causing mayhem and idiotic driving from frustrated drivers following on where as regular speeders will still think it does not apply to them.

The real message should not be a blanket "slow down" but more to the point adjust speed for conditions and take more care! "Slow down" is far to simplistic a view and I believe cause more accidents than it will save.

Also the term - "Use your fog lights" I have a problem with - Front fogs serve no purpose but for the driver in the car with the fog lights on to see where they are going AT NIGHT. The front fogs low positing and spread beam lights the way lowly under the fog allowing drivers follow the white lines or kerb etc.
Rear fog lights are for OTHER drivers to see cars traveling in front of them in both dark and bright conditions - These are the ones that should be on - IN FOG and only then.

h2s

RobAMerc wrote:

Also the term - "Use your fog lights" I have a problem with - Front fogs serve no purpose but for the driver in the car with the fog lights on to see where they are going AT NIGHT. The front fogs low positing and spread beam lights the way lowly under the fog allowing drivers follow the white lines or kerb etc.
Rear fog lights are for OTHER drivers to see cars traveling in front of them in both dark and bright conditions - These are the ones that should be on - IN FOG and only then.

I would disagree with some of that - True Front fogs are mainly for night however anything that makes you more visible to oncoming traffic is useful, a damn sight better to have them on with dipped headlights that having nothing or just rubbishy parking lights.

On the speed thing I think it is the appropriate speed for the conditions at the time - weather, road conditions, traffic volume, etc... and also the driver's experience. Each person is different with different reaction times, it is not a one shoe fits all situation.

I dislike that blanket attitude that some have here towards drivers who refuse for whatever reason to drive constantly at the max speed as indicated by the speed signs. It would appear that there is a common attitude that rights of the fast driver take precidence. This is not the case all people deserve equal respect on the road, and it's worth taking the time to consider that we may not in possession of all the facts as to why a driver may be driving slower than others.

is_that_so

RobAMerc wrote:

I have a problem with all the calls in the press over the last two days telling everyone to "slow down".

This is not going to help, in my view the drivers who will slow down are the ones who are already so nervous as to drive at 50kph below the speed limit often causing mayhem and idiotic driving from frustrated drivers following on where as regular speeders will still think it does not apply to them.

The real message should not be a blanket "slow down" but more to the point adjust speed for conditions and take more care! "Slow down" is far to simplistic a view and I believe cause more accidents than it will save.

Also the term - "Use your fog lights" I have a problem with - Front fogs serve no purpose but for the driver in the car with the fog lights on to see where they are going AT NIGHT. The front fogs low positing and spread beam lights the way lowly under the fog allowing drivers follow the white lines or kerb etc.
Rear fog lights are for OTHER drivers to see cars traveling in front of them in both dark and bright conditions - These are the ones that should be on - IN FOG and only then.

Unless you have passed the Advanced Driving Test, you like me, only have a Certificate of Competence. And even if you have, you really should know better than to lecture on the evils of Irish drivers.

The primary aim of driving is to get from A to B without either putting yourself or any one else at risk by your actions. The road is for all users including the ones that upset you. Whether they should be there or not is not up to you to decide.

TBH this getting upset or annoyed by things we cannot change or affect is a malaise of our times. We all have to be outraged about something.

Seth Brundle

DonJose wrote:

And you will still get idiots coming onto this forum saying, "Speed doesn't kill."

I think most of them tend to mention the word appropriate.
The speed kills mantra is overused and often on the wrong occasions. Most who crashed yesterday were not speeding. They were dumb as poo for driving too fast for the conditions though.
I 'speed' a lot. I do it pretty much every day. I have not however caused any incidents or been involved in any where speed was a factor. Furthermore I don't yet have any points on my licence. I would not have driven beyond my visible braking distance had I been unfortunate enough to be in that fog.

colm_mcm wrote:

speedometers usually show a higher than actual speed, so they would've been going slower. even at 30mph, it's hard to stop when the brake lights of a car stopped 10 feet in front of you appears "out of nowhere"

speedos overreading or underreading is irrelevant when you are driving at 120km/h in thick fog with visibility down to 5 or 10 metres


Incidentally Graybo was talking about a truck overtaking someone on the N3 at Dalgan - a straight stretch of single carriageway where more often than not there isn't the ability to overtake because of oncoming traffic. Attempted murder!

RobAMerc

h2s wrote:

I would disagree with some of that - True Front fogs are mainly for night however anything that makes you more visible to oncoming traffic is useful, a damn sight better to have them on with dipped headlights that having nothing or just rubbishy parking lights.

My point is they are telling people to put on their fog lights, most people will put the fronts on thinking thats it - they should emphisise rear fogs - I suspect at least some of yesterdays carnage may have been avoided with proper use of rear fogs, front fogs would have done little for anyone.

h2s wrote:

I dislike that blanket attitude that some have here towards drivers who refuse for whatever reason to drive constantly at the max speed as indicated by the speed signs. It would appear that there is a common attitude that rights of the fast driver take precidence. This is not the case all people deserve equal respect on the road, and it's worth taking the time to consider that we may not in possession of all the facts as to why a driver may be driving slower than others.

I agree, people should be allowed drive at whever speed (within reason) they feel is safe or like to drive at. What I have a problem with is them doing it with no regard for whats going on behind them and stay out in the middle of the road oblivious to whats happening around them. Anyone who watches what happens on the road has seen this and sees how dangerous it is.

RobAMerc

is_that_so wrote:

Unless you have passed the Advanced Driving Test, you like me, only have a Certificate of Competence. And even if you have, you really should know better than to lecture on the evils of Irish drivers.

The primary aim of driving is to get from A to B without either putting yourself or any one else at risk by your actions. The road is for all users including the ones that upset you. Whether they should be there or not is not up to you to decide.

TBH this getting upset or annoyed by things we cannot change or affect is a malaise of our times. We all have to be outraged about something.

This looks like something you just wrote and scouted around the forums till you found somewhere to post it.
IF you read my post, I was not complaining about other peoples driving - I was commenting on the poor choice of catch phrases that are bandied about in the media and highlighting how they could be de-constructive.

JMSE

My sympathies to the family of the dead person.

I'm an artic driver, in fog its just lunacy to take these things up to speed. Its exhausting at night in dense fog when you havent a clue what section of the road you are on save for the signs when normally a glance out at the local landscape is your own personal GPS. On the M7 the junctions with their towering floodlights just appear seconds before you get there when normally you see them from miles away. When you get off the M7 at Portlaoise and head down thru Abbeyleix and Durrow oncoming nightime traffic in heavy fog catches you totally by surprise as you get your first glimpse of them 3 seconds before you pass. Your concentration has got to be at its peak.

The way I drive it is, in fog, its safer to be led than to lead. When you are leading, you have zero visibility of the nothingness in front. So what I do is I allow the following driver who hasnt been behind me very long to overtake, let him stretch out the yards until I can just see his tail-lights in the distance - and I'm happy that its a safe distance - and then I use him as my lighthouse and follow his lights. I'm much more comfortable to do that at his 40mph than to drive blind at 30. Its not a strategy you could put into the new rules of the road book but it works when done properly.

I turn my rear fogs off in the most dense of fog ..... when theres a driver right behind me. It makes sense, its gonna make him ten times more comfortable to stay behind you and you're not tiring him out by doing it. If he turns off, put them back on. A foreigner did this in front of me this morning and its a long time since I can remember someone else doing it. Also he then turned left into a premises about 400yds further up, he's gotta get the awareness trophy for today, I reckon he was making sure I noticed his brakelights coming on as he was slowing down and not mistaking them for fogs. Either way, thats good driving.

Stark

is_that_so wrote:

Unless you have passed the Advanced Driving Test, you like me, only have a Certificate of Competence. And even if you have, you really should know better than to lecture on the evils of Irish drivers.

There's a "the Advanced Driving Test" now? Last time I checked there were a few different advanced driving tests being offered by private individuals/companies with the IAM one being recognised by Hibernian for insurance premium purposes.

Besides, front fog lights will only help if they're properly focused front fog lights, which a lot of cars don't have. A Micra driver switching on their "fogs" is only going to make visibility worse for themselves.

Supercell

RobAMerc wrote:

I agree, people should be allowed drive at whatever speed (within reason) they feel is safe or like to drive at. What I have a problem with is them doing it with no regard for whats going on behind them and stay out in the middle of the road oblivious to whats happening around them. Anyone who watches what happens on the road has seen this and sees how dangerous it is.

I'm a great driver, on an open road even in fog i'm pretty confidant i'll not run into the crash barrier unless I encounter some muppet with less skillez than me..

Unfortunately lowest common denometer has to be applied in severe driving conditions like yesterday. A blanket 50kph limit might have reduced the carnage considerably if drivers felt they had to do so.

There is a new 60kph restriction on the M50 near Bray that I'm certain is going to end in tears once we get a rainy morning.
The road narrows pretty badly as a result of traffic cones whilst people are merging, no-one is paying the slightest attention to the 60kmph limit and I have already seen several near misses in perfect conditions.

The road surface there is crap in the rain - there is surface spray everywhere in the lightest shower, rainy morning + tired drivers + speed restriction no-one pays any attention too = a disaster waiting to happen.

Next proper rainy morning I'm taking the backroads around the area and anticipate reading about another mass pile up when I get into work.

To be honest I strongly feel there is a valid case for speed cams there right NOW, so people get used to the idea of slowing right down before they really need to and the dumbasses by then will hopefully have it ingrained already.

peasant

I'm a great driver, on an open road even in fog i'm pretty confidant i'll not run into the crash barrier unless I encounter some muppet with less skillez than me..

There are four golden rules for driving:

1) You are NOT infallible
2) People do the most stupid things
3) Everything changes all the time
4) Take NOTHING for granted

_Kaiser_

The cause of this ultimately tragic event was nothing to do wth speeding, although I'm sure the Gardai and the government will bang on about "speed kills" and there'll be another wave of Garda speed traps for a week or two until the media/social outrage dies down.

However, as usual it's not tackling the real cause of the problem the other day. As I said, it wasn't speeding, it was dangerous driving - specifically a failure to drive at conditions appropriate to the (in this case weather) conditions at the time.

What's even worse is that the reason for this is an apparent lack of even basic cop on in many drivers (if you can't see, SLOW DOWN and TURN ON YOUR LIGHTS) and lack of experience/proper education... which brings us back to the totally inadequate driver training and testing regime in this country.

Until THAT changes, I'm afraid we'll be hearing about a lot more of these "accidents" in the meantime.

maidhc

Probably has been said already, but a fantastic side effect of having a high/no speed limit is that people stop trying to keep at the limit and actually drive at a speed they feel safe.

Mitch Connor

maidhc wrote:

Probably has been said already, but a fantastic side effect of having a high/no speed limit is that people stop trying to keep at the limit and actually drive at a speed they feel safe.

but you would get people that drive at way above that speed anyway. A lot of people i see on the M50 shouldn't be in a car doing 120kph, but you know if there was no limit they would be hitting the road as fast as their car could go.

The Black Oil

The dead woman's sister was on Newstalk a few minutes ago.:(

prospect

DonJose wrote:

And you will still get idiots coming onto this forum saying, "Speed doesn't kill."

It doesn't !

redspider

JMSE wrote:

I'm an artic driver, in fog its just lunacy to take these things up to speed. Its exhausting at night in dense fog when you havent a clue what section of the road you are on save for the signs... Your concentration has got to be at its peak. The way I drive it is, in fog, its safer to be led than to lead. When you are leading, you have zero visibility of the nothingness in front. I turn my rear fogs off in the most dense of fog ..... when theres a driver right behind me. It makes sense, its gonna make him ten times more comfortable to stay behind you and you're not tiring him out by doing it. If he turns off, put them back on.

I agree with those points and practice them myself in cars. Thats why cats-eyes and good well-lined shoulders (with the poles with reflectors) are a godsend in heavy fog. Newly tarred roads with no lines are a nightmare, which is one reason why I think all roads should be properly marked if open to the public, even if with temporary lines.

The recent accident day on the M7 is a harsh reminder of some of the poor driving practices drivers have in this country. Its a harsh lesson but there is no douibt that many drivers get lax and need "lessons" all the time. 'Expect the unexpected' is what few people seldom do.

In terms of trucks, quite a lot of them are involved in accidents, and I have been overtaken by trucks doing over 120 kmph in a 100 kmph zone. Trucks are in more than their fair share of accidents I suspect, due to their weight/momentum. Speed is a factor for many accidents but is better expressed as "driving too fast for the conditions", which many people do.

I think that all accidents should be investigated and the results (sanitised and made anonymous) put up on the web for free for education to all. For some people will only learn by showing them how accidents happen. A cartoon diagrmttic would convey this info. There should also be a weekly programme on RTE1 after the news once a week which goes through theseand other driving education aspects.

In terms of the death and the pile-up on the M7:
I understand that two accidents involved trucks. It would be interesting to find out who was at fault for those. There was also a 22-car 'concertina', where it sounds like one mistake caught out the others.

In terms of the young woman that died, I understand that she drove into a Fire Engine which was obviously called to the scene. It sounds like she was coming up from behind. I realise her family are in pain and her sister is calling for people to slow down, although she has changed her tune this morning to requesting better warning systems in place, but to me, it sounds like her sister was driving too fast in the fog and it was her driver error which was the cause of her own death, as harsh as that may sound to the family?

Whats other people's readings on this?

Although to know for sure we would need to know all the measurements, speeds, etc, and visibility.

Redspider

Biro

Longfield wrote:

I'm a great driver

I wasn't sure if this was taking the p!ss or not. Assuming it's not, then anyone I hear utter that statement is most definately not a "great driver". Unless you happen to have some world driving title like WRC or F1 or other?
It's attitudes like this that cause accidents.

scargill

Some photos of the Camry that was squashed by the cemet lorry. He was very lucky.

quarryman

Biro wrote:

I wasn't sure if this was taking the p!ss or not. Assuming it's not, then anyone I hear utter that statement is most definately not a "great driver". Unless you happen to have some world driving title like WRC or F1 or other?
It's attitudes like this that cause accidents.

agreed.

Longfield, if that comment is not sarcastic then I reckon you are in a suprise at some stage on the road. Your confiidence will be enough for you to pull out at junction without fully looking some morning or forget to check your blindspot that one time. I should know, I've done it, i doubt there is anyone here that hasn't.

I really hope I'm not driving behind someone as 'confident' as you on the road at any stage.

If you are driving every day 100% relaxed and confident then you are a hazard IMO. There should always be a level of alert and awareness and 100% confidence takes away from that.

whippet

Biro wrote:

I wasn't sure if this was taking the p!ss or not. Assuming it's not, then anyone I hear utter that statement is most definately not a "great driver". Unless you happen to have some world driving title like WRC or F1 or other?
It's attitudes like this that cause accidents.

my uncle who used to drive for a living .. doing about 150K miles a year said to me once that for the first million miles you are still learning to drive and the next million is gaining experience !

MercMad

Has anybody seen photo of the car that hit the Fire Truck ?

Surely the Firemen should have had advance warning signs placed back down the road ??

All cars carry warning triangles I assume the Fire Brigade have signs on board or what went wrong here ??

I think one of the things that happens during a drive on a motorway is that due to the monotony you get bored and your concentration levels drop when they should in fact be heightened somehow !

Listening to the radio can be a lot of "white noise" and that doesn't help either !

Would Gantry warning signs have made any difference, clearly the repeatative AA warnings werent/arent enough, people just get too used to them and dont hear the message !

Stark

MercMad wrote:

I think one of the things that happens during a drive on a motorway is that due to the monotony you get bored and your concentration levels drop when they should in fact be heightened somehow !

I doubt boredom was a significant factor in the crashes.

RobAMerc

MercMad wrote:

Would Gantry warning signs have made any difference,

Exactly, surely if they had intelligent signage and variable speed limits on this road it would have saved lives - we are going to have to look at this in the future.

Then, had the limits been reduced to 50kph in the fog - people who still then continued at 120 in the fog could be accused of being the cause of this accident.

We continue here in Ireland to undertrain drivers then send them out on underfunded poorly constructed roads and blame them when an accident occurs.

Simply telling every body to "slow down" is an absolute farce!

oisin_reme

MercMad wrote:

Would Gantry warning signs have made any difference, clearly the repeatative AA warnings werent/arent enough, people just get too used to them and dont hear the message !

gantry signs are always placed high above the motorway to give adequate warning for junctions etc, but they are placed quite high up, far beyond the visibility levels in foggy conditions so they wouldn't serve much purpose in those circumstances. the same would apply for variable signs, most things on the verge of roads are invisible in foggy conditions.

until the nature of driving is changed, until drivers are taught all the necessary information for driving in all conditions we're fighting a losing battle. it's a simple fact, driving tests do not incorporate any training on motorway driving etiquette or how to deal with foggy conditions, what to do if u hit an icy patch on a road etc. yes it's very important to be able to have adequate clutch control to be able to drive around towns, often at slow speeds, changing gears frequently and negotiating corners, roundabouts , junctions etc, but the fact of the matter is these are not the places where accidents occur. it's on open roads, often single lane carriageways without hardshoulders etc. these are where the driving skills need to be taught and accessed.