"Buddhist Boards i.e Beers"

Asiaprod

Not an earth shaking post by any means, still. Just like to let all the Buddhists here know that over the weekend I had the pleasure of meeting with Maitri (from Oslo) here in Tokyo. She popped over to attend her cousin's graduation ceremony and we managed to have dinner together and celebrate the first "Buddhist Boards i.e Beers" here in Tokyo; granted that only I drank the beer, but it does count.:)
It was lovely to meet in the flesh so to speak, and I lookforward to meeting any more that journey this far. Japanese beer is cold and good.

monkeyfudge

I happened to try one called 'Iki' today... it was indeed a good beer.

maitri

Japan is great, like no place else I have ever visited - and especially nice for a Buddhist are all the lovely temples, shrines and the astoundingly beautiful gardens (made for meditation?)! It was really an experiene to be in a place with Buddist temples practically everywhere (I also visited a real old Zen stone garden in Kyoto). And our Asiaprod is great, too.
(I wouldn't know about the Beer (the tea was very nice, though!), but if Asia and monkeyfudge say so, I'm sure it is good.)
And also try the food!
So go buy tickets and go there if you have the chance!


Best,

Maitri

monkeyfudge

I'll get over there one of these days.

I have a brother in Yokahama.

Asiaprod

monkeyfudge wrote:

I'll get over there one of these days.

I have a brother in Yokahama.

I'll keep the beers cold, wait till you taste the stuff the micro breweries create.

maitri

And if you like coffee you must try the special Japanese "Depresso".
I laughed the whole way home on the plane because I found that name on a coffe just before I left. My cousin thinks it must be the worst name on a coffe ever...

scojones

I plan on visiting Japan within the next 15 months or so.

Asiaprod

scojones wrote:

I plan on visiting Japan within the next 15 months or so.

I'll get in more beers.

hairyheretic

I'd like to visit at some point, but realistically I've no idea when it'll happen. Probably not within the next couple of years.

BTW, weren't you supposed to be heading Dublin direction at some point?

MeditationMom

Thank you for this wonderful bit of news. That must have been so much fun -

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote:

I'd like to visit at some point, but realistically I've no idea when it'll happen. Probably not within the next couple of years.

You never know when it will happen, maitri's trip came as a complete surprise to her. If you do get over here I have a very interesting Garden to bring you to. It is a display area for Nordic Ruin Stones, big ones.

BTW, weren't you supposed to be heading Dublin direction at some point?

Indeed yes. I tried to get home earlier this year, but just to many things got in the way. Now looking at Sept/Oct. I will be sure to let all know in advance so we can have a really good Beer Session.

MeditationMom, how nice to hear from you. Hope you are keeping well.

hairyheretic

Asiaprod wrote:

You never know when it will happen, maitri's trip came as a complete surprise to her. If you do get over here I have a very interesting Garden to bring you to. It is a display area for Nordic Ruin Stones, big ones.

Rune stones? I know the vikings got around a lot, but I didn't think they'd got as far as Japan

Asiaprod wrote:

Indeed yes. I tried to get home earlier this year, but just to many things got in the way. Now looking at Sept/Oct. I will be sure to let all know in advance so we can have a really good Beer Session.

As long as its not the October bank holiday weekend we should be good. As per usual I'll be staffing at GaelCon that weekend, running chunks of the wargaming.

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote:

Rune stones? I know the vikings got around a lot, but I didn't think they'd got as far as Japan

Rune stones:o , I blame the spelling on the on the beers.
I believe that the stones were a present from the Norwegian Government (they may only be copies, I never checked).

hairyheretic

Asiaprod wrote:

Rune stones:o , I blame the spelling on the on the beers.
I believe that the stones were a present from the Norwegian Government (they may only be copies, I never checked).

More likely, but not as amusing a mental image as a longboat full of vikings ending up there

maitri

MeditationMom wrote:

Thank you for this wonderful bit of news. That must have been so much fun -

Hi MeditationMom!
Yes it was!

scojones

Asiaprod wrote:

I'll get in more beers.

Excellent! I'll bring the Middleton.

DublinWriter

scojones wrote:

I plan on visiting Japan within the next 15 months or so.

Me too. What I'd really like to do would be to take a six-month "Grand-Tour" of Japan, China, Taiwan, Thailand and Tibet.

Asiaprod: On a serious note, how do you reconcile drinking alcohol with your particular Buddhist beliefs? I still retain a good old (un)healthy Catholic guilt about my drinking and trying to practise constant mindfulness in a true sense.

Asiaprod

DublinWriter wrote:

Asiaprod: On a serious note, how do you reconcile drinking alcohol with your particular Buddhist beliefs? I still retain a good old (un)healthy Catholic guilt about my drinking and trying to practise constant mindfulness in a true sense.

Sorry DublinWriter, I missed this.
I guess the first point is that for me Buddhism is an active ongoing process. The rules change as the individual matures and grows in his/her understanding. I tend to find that it is not the act that causes the problem, it is the understanding and mindset of the individual performing the act.
I do not consider it wrong to eat meat or drink alcohol, or other pleasures, as long as its done in moderation. Buddhism is all about making steady progress oneself, and not about trying to follow to the letter a set of rules that were laid down centuries ago, rules which in effect are nothing more than guidelines. The Buddha told us to question everything, and to discover for ourselves. The effect of this is that we create our own Karma, good or bad, based on our experience.
Drinking alcohol can be a pleasent social activity, getting wasted and beating up the wife, can never be condoned.
Its firmly down to each individual, it has to be. Buddhism is about accepting responsibility for one's own actions.:)

maitri

Asiaprod wrote:

Buddhism is all about making steady progress oneself, and not about trying to follow to the letter a set of rules that were laid down centuries ago, rules which in effect are nothing more than guidelines. The Buddha told us to question everything, and to discover for ourselves. .

I believe this is a very good description of Buddhism. It’s not about rules.

Still, cultivating compassion towards all living beings - as well as a general respect for life and for the fact that all living beings strive for happiness - is very central in Buddhism.

When it comes to buying meat from the modern meat factories (that is most meat we can get in the stores, except meat labelled “ecological”) – and thus supporting a very cruel and cynical meat industry that let animals live and die in horrible misery and suffering – well, I have a big problem with understanding how this can be me compatible with the Buddhist principles of compassion:

http://www.meat.org/ (short documentary)

http://www.goveg.com/factoryFarming.asp

There are also environmental aspects:

http://www.goveg.com/environment.asp

Asiaprod wrote:

Its firmly down to each individual, it has to be. Buddhism is about accepting responsibility for one's own actions.:)

Yes, no absolute rules, but total responsibility.

Asiaprod wrote:

I do not consider it wrong to eat meat or drink alcohol, or other pleasures, as long as its done in moderation.

It’s true that some Buddhist drink and some don’t, some eat meat (some only when given by others) and some don’t.

Asiaprod wrote:

Buddhism is all about making steady progress oneself, and not about trying to follow to the letter a set of rules that were laid down centuries ago, rules which in effect are nothing more than guidelines. The Buddha told us to question everything, and to discover for ourselves.

Very true. IMHO some old sutras still make very good sense, though;) :


"Do not what is evil. Do what is good. Keep your mind pure. This is the teaching of Buddha. (Dhammapada, 183.)"

Asiaprod

maitri wrote:

Very true. IMHO some old sutras still make very good sense, though;)

Indeed, I would even go so far as to say that all sutras make sense, if could just learn to interpret them properly.

My fav. sutras would be "The Diamond" and "The Lotus" Sutras. I would be interested to hear of other poster's fav. ones

coffee_cake

The diamond sutra!

MeditationMom

by maitri - well, I have a big problem with understanding how this can be me compatible with the Buddhist principles of compassion:

Maitri, you bring up this very uncomfortable subject of our knowing, or unknowing, co-operation with cruelty, be it meat eating or eating of other animal products, clothing produced in sweatshops, or more extreme "pleasures" like diamonds, furs, child pornography or just plain pornography. I am sure the list is really long once we get into it and would include many things we consider harmless but aren't. once we looked into them more deeply.

I have no answer. Each individual needs to tread as lightly on this planet and in this life as they can, although we live in cultures/economies that thrive on, and encourage just the opposite. My heart truely broke the first time I saw a documentary on meat production and other kinds of animal abuse. Becoming a vegetarian became a natural response. When I see others eat meat I know that they are not being non-compassionate but just too far removed from the facts of where this meat on their plates comes about. I am sure I do plenty of harm with other things I consume. My friend, Michio Kushi, the foremost Macrobiotic teacher here in the US also never judged people. He just nodded with compassion and understanding and with a lot of humility, quietly said to someone who was arguing for his meat eating: "It's OK. You must be very hungry."

maitri

Hi MeditationMom:) , thanks for your posts with very relevant remarks.

First, I am very sorry if I sounded judgmental, because I certainly didn’t mean to.

However I feel an urge to inform about what’s going on in the meat factories and the slaughter houses when such topics are brought up because increasing the general awareness about this is the only way I know to try make a change. Only when the marked (which in the end mean me and you and everybody) are aware and react accordingly the meat industry will change the way they treat the animals, IMO. And until that happens we are all responsible, as I see it.

Today to many animals live miserable lives isolated in much too small cages (e.g. the chickens/hens often live isolated in cages that are not bigger than a normal A4 writing paper and have floors that injure their feet, or thousands of them are put together in a hall with the result that they pluck each other to death), many of them never get to see daylight/sun or green grass, social animals (like pigs whose intelligence and personalities are very similar to dogs) live their whole lives isolated with very little space to move and at “the end of the day” many of them are transported to the slaughterhouses for more than twelve hours on the road without getting food and water and it’s also very normal that they arrive the with broken legs and other injuries. Some even die in the cars.

In my country it just came out last week that the stunning devices for the chicken in some of our big slaughter houses often didn’t work with the result that the chickens hanging upside down from their feet either got their heads cut off while they were still being conscious or actually managed to wiggle away (totally or partly) from the knife with the result that they were boiled alive instead. This once happened to 1000 birds in half an hour.

For me the issue isn’t really about eating meat or not eating meat (actually I don’t have any strong opinion about that – personally I’m a “pescotarian”, but that’s a matter of feelings more than of principle… or logic, and I don’t try to make others become vegetarian) but rather supporting or not supporting the cruelties of the meat industry.

Also it’s possible to eat meat even without supporting the meat factories, because the ecological farmers – and some small farms - usually treat their animals kindly.

This of course doesn’t mean that I think that people who by meat from the stores should be judged, and I’m very sorry if it came out that way, and I certainly don’t love my meat buying friends any less than my vegetarian ones.

MeditationMom wrote:

My friend, Michio Kushi, the foremost Macrobiotic teacher here in the US also never judged people. He just nodded with compassion and understanding and with a lot of humility, quietly said to someone who was arguing for his meat eating: "It's OK. You must be very hungry."

maitri

bluewolf wrote:

The diamond sutra!

I’m a diamond girl too.

Asiaprod wrote:

My fav. sutras would be "The Diamond" and "The Lotus" Sutras. I would be interested to hear of other poster's fav. ones

Have only read parts of the Lotus Sutra because it’s very long. Any special parts you recommend?:)

DublinWriter

maitri wrote:

This of course doesn’t mean that I think that people who by meat from the stores should be judged, and I’m very sorry if it came out that way, and I certainly don’t love my meat buying friends any less than my vegetarian ones.:D

Indeed. Even within my own particular school of Buddhism (Mahayana), the earing of meat is frowned upon by Chinese Mahayanans, but allowed by the Japanese and Tibetan Mahayanan schools. Personally, the eating of meat is something that I am not happy with doing myself. It is not for me to judge others on their own actions.

But Asiaprod, I really would be fascinated to know how you square the circle of drinking alcohol and maintaining the Fifth Precept. I ask this question humbly of you and without the pretext of any guile of judgement and/or entrapment on yer good self.

Asiaprod

DublinWriter wrote:

But Asiaprod, I really would be fascinated to know how you square the circle of drinking alcohol and maintaining the Fifth Precept. I ask this question humbly of you and without the pretext of any guile of judgement and/or entrapment on yer good self.

No problem, give me a couple of days to gather my thoughts on the issue:)

coffee_cake

DublinWriter wrote:

But Asiaprod, I really would be fascinated to know how you square the circle of drinking alcohol and maintaining the Fifth Precept. I ask this question humbly of you and without the pretext of any guile of judgement and/or entrapment on yer good self.

I'd imagine it's ok as long as you're not getting drunk or drinking to get drunk and so only a small amount...
more than that though, nah...

Asiaprod

DublinWriter wrote:

But Asiaprod, I really would be fascinated to know how you square the circle of drinking alcohol and maintaining the Fifth Precept. I ask this question humbly of you and without the pretext of any guile of judgement and/or entrapment on yer good self.

Now to attempt this tough question. One point I must make clear here is that the following is MY personal take, it is me taking responsibility for my life. Also must apologize for the length of this post, it is difficult to make it shorter.

The Fifth Precept of Buddhism stipulates that we should not take Intoxicants. We are told that taking intoxicant will cause us to descend and lose the seed of wisdom. Intoxicants, such as drugs, liquor, smoking, etc., are harmful to health. It seems that taking intoxicant is not hurting others. However, if we are drunk and lose our consciousness, we may easily commit evil deeds and hurt others. Therefore, one who breaks this precept will tend to break all other precepts along with it. The fifth precept is based on respect for mental health. It guard against the loss of control of one’s mind. It is particularly important to those who meditate because, by refraining from taking intoxicants, they can more easily cultivate awareness, attention and clarity of mind. Thus the observance of the fifth precept not only contributes to happiness in the family and peace in society, it also prepares a person for the practice of Mental Development. However, one also notes that taking intoxicant for medical purpose does not violate this precept.

In Buddhism we say that there are three general levels of communication: the Enlightened level, the Intellectual level, and the Common level. The Common level is the level that applied when the teachings were first heard (in certain circles, they are referred to as the Provisional Teachings). We then start to question the different aspects of the teaching and try to define them, which brings us to the second level of communication, the Intellectual level. From here we pass on to the final level of communication, the Enlightened level, which I can not comment on since I am not yet enlightened. However, the Buddha also taught that enlightenment is not a product of intellect. One cannot achieve liberation by following an intellectual course. Intellectuals tend to spend much of their time in study, critical analysis, and debate, often leaving little or not time for practice. Therefore, what we can learn on the intellectual level is to accept the challenge of the vastness of the Buddhist teachings, but to avoid being buried by it. The vast size of Buddhist literature can itself be a burden and becomes a serious obstacle if one clings to it. We are told one must free oneself from all attachments before one can attain enlightenment. The Buddha used the raft as an analogy. A raft is used to cross a river. the Buddha asked his disciples, "Would you say that a man is wise if, after crossing a river and seeing that there is a long way to walk on land, he puts the raft on his back and carries it rather than getting rid of it?" I think the answer would be no, one must ditch the raft as it now becomes an unnecessary burden.

During this year, I began to change my outlook on how I understood some things (the Intellectual level), and determined to really spend much more time on my life and how I live it (the Enlightened level). This change came about as a result of an awakening in myself to the issue faced when reading and applying lessons written many centuries ago. Through a series of lectures and debates I realized that to really understand a sutra or lesson one must approach the teaching with the firm understanding that in order to understand it one must also understand and take into account the Person, the time and the place where it first came to light. Failure to do this meant that I was taking the teachings out of context. In effect, If I was to take each lesson as cast in stone, I would in effect be practicing someone else's form of Buddhism which was applicable x centuries ago. For the record, during the time that these teachings were expounded, drinking was a big problem in that place, it is only fitting that the evils of drink were pointed out and people were told to abstain from alcohol for the reasons listed above. For the people of that time Alcohol was evil, and caused all kinds of pain and suffering. The Buddha in his compassion tried to point this out in the Fifth Precept of Buddhism. However, the world moved on, and some people have learned to control their intake of alcohol to where it no longer holds the potential in their lives to cause the suffering it did. I should also point out here that at no point did the Buddha call intoxicants evil. The are neutral. They have the potential for Good or Evil, depending on the user.
I consider myself after 20 years of solid practice to be now capable of making my own choices. I now read the Buddha's words as guidelines and I decide, based on my life, what is or is not evil in relation to me. It is the miss-use of intoxicants that is evil, and not the intoxicants. This is a process that we all have to go through in the end since Buddhism is unique to each individual.
As a result of this, I read the the Fifth Precept of Buddhism as a warning on the usage of intoxicants rather than as a direct out and out ban.

I hope this helps answer your question, I hope it even comes close. Again, remember that this line of thought applies to me, it may not apply to others. If it helps other see things differently, I am very happy.

MeditationMom

Asiaprod, I was looking forward to your reflections on this and as usual am enjoying your thoughtfulness and understanding. You clarify your position very well and obviously have thought a lot about it. Great question from Dublin Writer.

I might add to this that meat gives the body much energy and heat. In general men need meat more than women. We instinctively are attracted to the foods our body needs in order to function well in our environment and at our desired activity level. As the body tries to maintain a certain chemical balance at all times, alcohol actually balances the consumption of meat. When whatever teachings then don't fit our natural attractions to certain foods we get confused, maybe even unhealthy. For others, who are not doing well on high protein Western meat diets, something like Buddhism becomes a great attraction just to have a good reason to switch to a different diet.

As long as we are clear about ourselves as to what is healthy appetite rather than addiction, compulsion, etc., and watch and know the effects of foods on our system, anything can be eaten. In Macrobiotics it was called eating at the level of freedom (aka enlightenment). It meant that there were no more fears or concepts surrounding food, and given each and every situation's circumstances, there was "right eating".

Most, if not all, vegetarian religious diets come from very hot countries and we do indeed need to take into consideration the circumstances of where the teachings originate. Also, we need to remember that Buddhist monks live by begging food from others. If they were to beg for the amount of what we are used to eating today, it would be much too much of a strain on the community and therefore not compassionate.

That all being said, from my own experience, a purely whole grain/bean/vegetable diet is extremely helpful in extensive meditation practice. At that point though, when daily, hour-long meditations are our only activity, our activity level is almost zero. It takes very little food to just maintain the body. Just this physical peace of a body that is not too busy digesting and trying to balance acid and alkaline, is very supportive of meditation. The other important thing is to chew each mouthful until it is liquid and very, very sweet, usually 50 - 100 times for a healthy person, more if you are sick.

As to the issues Maitri brought up. Maitri - I didn't think you were judgemental at all. I sensed a deep, heartbroken concern for the suffering of the animals, which I share with you. Additionally I sensed frustration to the point of tears with the idea that "if even Buddhists aren't going to become vegetarians in order not be complicit in the meat industry, what hope is there?" And then I sensed your conclusion that all you could do really, is educate people, which you then did very well. And all power to you!!! As a matter of fact, I think a kind, gentle and non-judgemental person like you is the best to bring this to people's attention, because with your compassion also for a meat eater, your compassion for the animal comes across as genuine.

So there are really several issues here.
One - is meat eating OK for a Buddhist according to Buddhist teachings of compassion? Asiaprod has answered that question well, both personally and in general.
Two - is meat eating OK at all for anyone, considering the cruelty involved in putting it onto our dinner plates? Best to start a whole new thread on this one. Maitri?
Three - is it healthy or unhealthy, necessary or unnecessary, to eat meat from a purely scientific point of view? I tried to answer that a little bit from a Macrobiotic point of view. In general a high activity level and cold climate requires meat eating.
Four - is simply the issue of quantity. Aren't we all guilty of simply consuming more than we need?

Yesterday there was a left-over hamburger in our refrigerator from a grilling party we gave this weekend for some "meat and potato" friends of my husband's ( I say this with love and respect for our friends - this particular group is a group of hard core mountain athletes ). There hasn't been a piece of red meat in my refrigerator for literally 25 years! Thinking of Asiaprod I decided to take a bite. I was very hungry and have fond memories of how delicious red meat used to taste to me. It still smells good to me out on the grill. Also, I didn't want to through it into the garbage since an animal gave its life for that potentially healthy chunk of protein, but I had to spit it out right away because of the taste and texture. I ended up having the left-over, sweet grilled peppers. A MeditationMom moment of deciding to eat something for certain reasons, memories, theories, only to have to spit it out for a quick return to "right eating". Right eating for my body in that particular moment and circumstance.

"When thirsty I drink, when tired I sleep."
Or as Asiaprod would put it: "When hungry for meat, I eat meat. When thirsty for beer, I drink beer." Let there be peace in our eating. Here's to everyone's bodies and circumstances and a moment of gratitude for the wonderful foods that nourish us all. Let's chew them well so we don't take more than we need.

DublinWriter

MeditationMom wrote:

Let there be peace in our eating.

What a perfect pearl of wisdom to contemplate.

Asiaprod

DublinWriter wrote:

What a perfect pearl of wisdom to contemplate.

Indeed, and can be applied to just about everything. We have a wise Mom. By the by, would be interested in hearing your views on my answer to you:)