How much do we really know about Britain?

brianthebard

Well as a history student *cough cough* I'd like to think I know a good bit about Britain, but there are fairly large gaps where Wales and Scotland are involved. (not that wales ever did much). I have come to the (totally unsubstantiated) conclusion that Irish people actually know very little about Britain's history, since its never directly taught until Uni level and even then there's no module devoted to Britain (in NUIM at least afaik). Our nations histories are so closely linked, but how much do people here really know about Wales, England and Scotland?

PeakOutput

brianthebard wrote:

Well as a history student *cough cough* I'd like to think I know a good bit about Britain, but there are fairly large gaps where Wales and Scotland are involved. (not that wales ever did much). I have come to the (totally unsubstantiated) conclusion that Irish people actually know very little about Britain's history, since its never directly taught until Uni level and even then there's no module devoted to Britain (in NUIM at least afaik). Our nations histories are so closely linked, but how much do people here really know about Wales, England and Scotland?

i can assure you that people in britain (in my experience) know alot less about our histroy so i wouldnt worry about it

Sangre

How much do they know about us?

Mahatma coat

Ah in fairness they know **** all about us compared to what we know aboutr them, General british idea - Ireland was a happy part of the UK for 800 years then one day some gurriers got caught robbin a post office and biccie factory and it all snowballed, We also thought that Cromwell was a lovely fella and we were ever so grateful for them sending some nobility to boss us around, ah shur without the English we wouldnt be where we are today.

We on the other hand can probably name a dozen of their monarchs, give a reasonable outline of british history since the Romans, and lob in a few references to Wiliam Wallace, Robert the Bruce, Eoin Gwyndoor, and Bodecia, bonus points for the Napoleonic wars and reference to the industrial revolution and their empire building escapades.

its the old addage 'Know your enemy'.


Podge

PeakOutput

by the way interesting bit of trivia here about english history............

that legend we all know and love william of orange was actually a catholic sanctioned to come into ireland(dont know why presumably to take control) by the monarchy AND the vatican

throw that down the throat of the next orange man your chatting to and watch him choak(in a nice way of course)

Zonko

Britain doesn't have a very interesting history. In school I learnt the guts of it, and I know it as well as I'd know most other countries but there's not the huge gap in knowledge I think you're suggesting for most people.

NADA

Now that you mention how did Scotland and Wales get there? And why are they in the Uk? I know why northern Ireland is but never wondered about other the other non-English Uk members.

brianthebard

Mahatma coat wrote:

Ah in fairness they know **** all about us compared to what we know aboutr them, General british idea - Ireland was a happy part of the UK for 800 years then one day some gurriers got caught robbin a post office and biccie factory and it all snowballed, We also thought that Cromwell was a lovely fella and we were ever so grateful for them sending some nobility to boss us around, ah shur without the English we wouldnt be where we are today.

I didn't ask if they knew about our history, that's not what I'm interested in right now.

We on the other hand can probably name a dozen of their monarchs, give a reasonable outline of british history since the Romans, and lob in a few references to Wiliam Wallace, Robert the Bruce, Eoin Gwyndoor, and Bodecia, bonus points for the Napoleonic wars and reference to the industrial revolution and their empire building escapades.

Well I would very much like to hear then. A few names like that is not conducive to showing how much you know about British history. I'm not looking for a thesis, but a brief timeline or a few facts that you feel illustrate what you know would be appreciated, rather than silly glib statements.

brianthebard

NADA wrote:

Now that you mention how did Scotland and Wales get there? And why are they in the Uk? I know why northern Ireland is but never wondered about other the other non-English Uk members.

Wales has been a part of Britain since Henry VII and Scotland had the act of Union in 1707 joining the two countries. Of course they were always linked but those two points are when the nations offically joined together afaik.

Thrill

brianthebard wrote:

I didn't ask if they knew about our history, that's not what I'm interested in right now.



Well I would very much like to hear then. A few names like that is not conducive to showing how much you know about British history. I'm not looking for a thesis, but a brief timeline or a few facts that you feel illustrate what you know would be appreciated, rather than silly glib statements.

If your looking for a more serious discussion on a topic like this then you could try posting in the History/Heritage Forum.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=330

brianthebard

I know where the history and heritage forum is, but generally the people visiting that forum already have a fairly good knowledge of history. I'm interested in seeing how much the normal user knows about our nearest neighbours.

NADA

Were Scotland and Wales forced to join UK like us?

PeakOutput

NADA wrote:

Were Scotland and Wales forced to join UK like us?

scotland yes but much earlier on not sure about wales but i assume so........at some stage it was a celtic island then roman then dane then french(maybe not french) i think it was the danes who turned it into the "united kingdom" as there were 4/5 different self proclaimed kings on the whole island at that time and one danish king conquered them all if i remember my historical novels correctly

Mahatma coat

I'm interested in seeing how much the normal user knows about our nearest neighbours.

well then prepare yerself for Generalisations, lists of names in no particular chronological order and bucketloads of Glib statements.

I may give you my non googled history of the UK at lunchtime or maybee not, depends on whats on for lunch

Thrill

Tbh, i really don't know that much about the history of those countries as i was never all that curious about the subject. I never really dug below the surface of what i was thought at school.

brianthebard

PeakOutput wrote:

scotland yes but much earlier on not sure about wales but i assume so........at some stage it was a celtic island then roman then dane then french(maybe not french) i think it was the danes who turned it into the "united kingdom" as there were 4/5 different self proclaimed kings on the whole island at that time and one danish king conquered them all if i remember my historical novels correctly

Never ever ever trust a historical novel.

Also its far too simplistic to say it was celtic/roman/dane/french. After the romans Angles, Saxons, Jutes and another tribe came and settled, intermingled, married etc. When the danes came there were also Norsemen. When the french came it was still a largely anglo-saxon/english country.

Scotland and England had the union of crowns in 1603 and imo they were not forced to join the union, the 1707 act was a legal document passed in both parliaments. Wales was not forced to join the union, I can't stress that enough. In fact the welsh elites were very happy to be considered british far quicker than english elites.

PeakOutput

brianthebard wrote:

Never ever ever trust a historical novel.

Also its far too simplistic to say it was celtic/roman/dane/french. After the romans Angles, Saxons, Jutes and another tribe came and settled, intermingled, married etc. When the danes came there were also Norsemen. When the french came it was still a largely anglo-saxon/english country.

Scotland and England had the union of crowns in 1603 and imo they were not forced to join the union, the 1707 act was a legal document passed in both parliaments. Wales was not forced to join the union, I can't stress that enough. In fact the welsh elites were very happy to be considered british far quicker than english elites.

i forgot about the saxons but were they not descended from the original danish settlers??? obviously not. ill reread the books and get back to you i happen to know for a fact the books i read were historically accurate as regards timelines battles and leaders of the time its jsut been so long since iread them and iv had a library of roman / alexandrian novels since then

thelordofcheese

i have whatever i can still remember from junior cert history, there may have been some kings and queen, one had a lot of wives, one went mental, the current lot are german, and various other things.

But to be honest, as someone pointed out, we know as much about their history as they do about ours, unless you take an interest in it, why would you need to know anything more that you may have gleaned thus far.

WhiteWashMan

Zonko wrote:

Britain doesn't have a very interesting history. .

now theres someone who knows nothing at all about british history.

the one thing you cant say is that it isnt interesting.

Hagar

We've all watched all the Black Adder series so we know lots.
Any details missed can easily be filled in from a few Monty Python films. Absorb that wealth of knowledge therein and you probably know as much as the average Brit. England won the World Cup in 1966. Oh yeah, King Alfred burnt the cakes and King Canute tried to to turn the tide back and did I mention that England won the World Cup in 1966?

jesus_thats_gre

Sangre wrote:

How much do they know about us?

Well they still like to refer to us as Southern Ireland for one. Can't figure out if they are in denial on that one or just dumb.

WhiteWashMan

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Well they still like to refer to us as Southern Ireland for one. Can't figure out if they are in denial on that one or just dumb.

now you are just mixing up british with english.

is this denial, or are you just dumb?

and if you actually bothered to look, the southern ireland thing is merely a geo-political reference against northern ireland.

seriously, why do you get upset enough at things like this? so very very very irish.

Cunny-Funt

you just answerd your own question:rolleyes:

Hail 2 Da Chimp

I heard they wear hats on their feet and hamburgers eat people.

seamus

Every country in the world, teaches its own history up until about Junior Cert level (14/15). There may be a little about other major world events (US Independence, World Wars), but on the whole, it's all about the country. After that, it's left up to people who are actually interested in History to go and study what happened elsewhere.

I'm not going to make any apologies for the fact that most of what I know about UK history is from vague references I see on UK TV. I've never studied it, so why should I know anything about it.

robinph

NADA wrote:

Were Scotland and Wales forced to join UK like us?

Wasn't it England being "forced" to join with Scotland though when a Scottish king took over the pair of them? James the something of Scotland and the something else of England.

digitally-yours

I know the british history which very few of Irish people know

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_East_India_Company

here is a little detail of what they did

The "Civilized" british used to sell opium !! and robbed all Asia

Took all diamonds and etc !

Worth the read !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Raj

The English like tea, crumpets and wear bowler hats. The Scottish wear kilts and like to bare their arses to the English, and the Welsh have ... sheep.

Kinetic^

brianthebard wrote:

Our nations histories are so closely linked, but how much do people here really know about Wales, England and Scotland? If nothing at all, do we care?

Fixed that for you!!!

WindSock

Timeline according to mee...

They used to be Celts, some parts still have roots, Irish Celts tried to invade, Romans invaded, Vikings invaded (but not Norwegians, they were for us) Normans Invaded (and we 'ínvited them over' which marked the beginning of the end for us), Plantaginet, Huguenots sp) The Monarchy is gaining momentum with Christianty on its side, Henry 8th invented Protestantism, Tudor era, Started to steal our land in titanic proportions, Empire expands, Industrial revolution, Georgian era (leave lovely buildings in Dublin) Victorian era (leave some more useful stuff for us), WW1, Ireland no longer in Commonwealth, Germans try to Invade-WW2, Rock music, World cup 1966, Princess Diana dies 1997, Help 'mericans invade Iraq. London Bombs (not by Ira)

Thats about the bulk of it. I know I left out a heap of wars and its probably anatomically incorrect, No Idea what happened before Celts, was Stonehenge Celtic? And the horse and big man with the big willy. I think he was Iron age.

Sleepy

Hagar wrote:

Any details missed can easily be filled in from a few Monty Python films.

Interesting fact: The Life of Brian is actually quite historically correct. A tour guide I had in Rome last year who spends his summers there and his winters teaching in an English university was telling us that he actually uses the 'What did the Romans ever do for us?' scene to teach his students the type of contracts the Romans offered to the nations it annexed...

brianthebard

boreds wrote:

Timeline according to mee...

They used to be Celts, some parts still have roots, Irish Celts tried to invade, Romans invaded, Vikings invaded (but not Norwegians, they were for us) Normans Invaded (and we 'ínvited them over' which marked the beginning of the end for us), Plantaginet, Huguenots sp) The Monarchy is gaining momentum with Christianty on its side, Henry 8th invented Protestantism, Tudor era, Started to steal our land in titanic proportions, Empire expands, Industrial revolution, Georgian era (leave lovely buildings in Dublin) Victorian era (leave some more useful stuff for us), WW1, Ireland no longer in Commonwealth, Germans try to Invade-WW2, Rock music, World cup 1966, Princess Diana dies 1997, Help 'mericans invade Iraq. London Bombs (not by Ira)

That's a pretty messy jumble of events, but does show what people think of when they think of britain. I just asked the original question because people like to complain about britain, 800 years etc, but actually seem to know very little about the countries they are complaining about. That said I find the level of interest in our own countries history quite low too, even amongst university history students, which is a bit annonying tbh.

mountainyman

PeakOutput wrote:

scotland yes but much earlier on not sure about wales but i assume so........

Scotland was NOT forced to join the Union after the Darien fiasco the Scottish Ruling class sought alliance with England.

MM

mountainyman

robinph wrote:

Wasn't it England being "forced" to join with Scotland though when a Scottish king took over the pair of them? James the something of Scotland and the something else of England.

6th of Scotland 1st of England. I presume he was the closest non Catholic relative of the Tudors (maybe not) the English Aristocracy invited him to become their king. I don't know teh details.

bmaxi

PeakOutput wrote:

that legend we all know and love william of orange was actually a catholic sanctioned to come into ireland(dont know why presumably to take control) by the monarchy AND the vatican

t

And the Pope is my grandmother.

Much as we hate to admit it British history is compelling stuff and all the begrudgery in the world won't alter the fact that a small island off the coast off Europe once ruled half the known world. Notwithstanding a bit of butchery here and there, their contribution in terms of politics, medicine, science, industry etc.is remarkable. It's galling I know but the Brits have been responsible for a lot of good stuff too.

Dyr

bmaxi wrote:

Much as we hate to admit it British history is compelling stuff and all the begrudgery in the world won't alter the fact that a small island off the coast off Europe once ruled half the known world.

And now their government has to pander to the ethnic minorities that they once overlorded to stay in power and their cities are being colonised by their ex colonies. imperialism is its own reward

Zonko

WhiteWashMan wrote:

now theres someone who knows nothing at all about british history.

the one thing you cant say is that it isnt interesting.

Now there's someone who doesn't know the history of anywhere else. Comparatively to most countries, Britains history is really not that interesting.

JaysusMacfeck

What to be know about Britain? It's a bit more British than Irleand, but not by much.

robinph

Zonko wrote:

Now there's someone who doesn't know the history of anywhere else. Comparatively to most countries, Britains history is really not that interesting.

Not sure how you come to that conclusion considering that the history of Britain will involve most other countries on the planet at some point or other. What is your definition of an interesting history then?

Sangre

Zonko wrote:

Britain doesn't have a very interesting history. In school I learnt the guts of it, and I know it as well as I'd know most other countries but there's not the huge gap in knowledge I think you're suggesting for most people.

You consider the history of arguably the most powerful empire ever as uninteresting? What does it take to float your boat?

brianthebard

Zonko wrote:

Now there's someone who doesn't know the history of anywhere else. Comparatively to most countries, Britains history is really not that interesting.

I'd love to see your scale of interesting history.:rolleyes:

WindSock

brianthebard wrote:

That said I find the level of interest in our own countries history quite low too, even amongst university history students, which is a bit annonying tbh.

I really wasn't arsed with my country's history and geography, I took it for granted because I lived here. I lived abroad for a while and came back to here out of interest in my own heritage. Ive re-opened up my doodled-on-every-page school history books now with an interest. Our/British history is far more interesting than many, I don't know how anyone could say it isnt. Try living in New Zealand, where there really is sweet f.a in terms of history.

brianthebard

I can imagine, everything before 1830? would be pre-history huh?

WindSock

Yeah, both islands have only been occupied for about 800 years apparantly, and while Maori culture is very interesting, there just isn't enough to keep me in awe. We had our stone age ages ago. And built cooler monuments

Hagar

boreds wrote:

...have only been occupied for about 800 years...

There's a coincidence... Did I ever tell you about my grandfather and the Black & Tans?...;)

kizzyr

brianthebard wrote:

Well as a history student *cough cough* I'd like to think I know a good bit about Britain, but there are fairly large gaps where Wales and Scotland are involved. (not that wales ever did much). I have come to the (totally unsubstantiated) conclusion that Irish people actually know very little about Britain's history, since its never directly taught until Uni level and even then there's no module devoted to Britain (in NUIM at least afaik). Our nations histories are so closely linked, but how much do people here really know about Wales, England and Scotland?

Maybe things have changed but I studied history at NUIM (graduated 2000) and there was a module devoted entirely to the history of England and its evolution into the British empire. It was very interesting, well to me at least. As for how much we know about it? schools can't teach us everything and if you can read then there is nothing to stop you picking up a book and learning yourself is there:)
As for the cross over of English history and Irish history, I think the reason so many people in the UK know so little (and much of it is inaccurate) about Irish history and their involvement in it is because its much more important to us than them, after all we were only a tiny part in the empire that was Great Britain and covered one fifth of the globe at one point.

JaysusMacfeck

And Irish history is bad history. You don't teach the bad stuff.

Thrill

kizzyr wrote:

It was very interesting, well to me at least.

History, it would seem, is like music, movies, comedy etc, liked by some, an absolute bore to others

T.V presenter:

"And now we join Johnston Winthrope-Smythe as he takes us on a journey through English history and tells us about King Henry the Eight..."

Me:
*yawn*


Johnston Winthrop-Smythe:

"welcome, this is where Henry the Eight was born on that fateful day in..."

Me:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

.

kizzyr

thrill wrote:

History, it would seem, is like music, movies, comedy etc, liked by some, an absolute bore to others

T.V presenter:

"And now we join Johnston Winthrope-Smythe as he takes us on a journey through English history and tells us about King Henry the Eight..."

Me:
*yawn*


Johnston Winthrop-Smythe:

"welcome, this is where Henry the Eight was born on that fateful day in..."

Me:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

.

LOL you couldn't be more right really. I think history either interests you or it doesn't. Me...I'm a complete addict and have always been hugely interested in history and its social consequences. I do however think it is important that everyone has at least a basic understanding of world events and sometimes knowing a bit about historical events allows this.

kizzyr

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

And Irish history is bad history. You don't teach the bad stuff.

All depends on who is doing the teaching. What part of Irish history do you think is bad and so hasn't been taught?

Marksie

robinph wrote:

Wasn't it England being "forced" to join with Scotland though when a Scottish king took over the pair of them? James the something of Scotland and the something else of England.

The stewart line. in 1603, and the union with england finally happened in 1707
Sort of came a cropper at Charles I for a while
After the first civil war Charles I went to the Scots for help (they had an army encamped at newcastle), on january 28th 1647 in return for £400,000 they returned with their army to scotland, leaving Charles in english hands leading to teh jibe "traitor scot sold his king for a groat"


"And Irish history is bad history. You don't teach the bad stuff."
yes actually you do. The stories of cromwellian abuses against civilians in drogheda and wexford have "No basis in fact"* and were in fact exaggerated by the clergy and became enshrined and taught as "history" to exemplify english excess.

Nroman davies states that the the majority of schools in countries teach nationalist history, so it is hardly surprising that one country may not know anothers history.**


*Historian Tom Reilly (note civilians is used here, he slaughtered the garrisons)

**Europe: A history.

To say that british jistory is boring is narrow minded and missing the whole point. The more you read, the more you understand how everything British, Irish, European is entwined.
What you are taught in schools may be as simple as a list of dates and names exploring things more deeply uncovers a lot more about where we are now.

If you are TV minded, one of the best about british history i have seen is Simon schama's a history of britain. It really makes it come alive.