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How much do we really know about Britain?

brianthebard

Well as a history student *cough cough* I'd like to think I know a good bit about Britain, but there are fairly large gaps where Wales and Scotland are involved. (not that wales ever did much). I have come to the (totally unsubstantiated) conclusion that Irish people actually know very little about Britain's history, since its never directly taught until Uni level and even then there's no module devoted to Britain (in NUIM at least afaik). Our nations histories are so closely linked, but how much do people here really know about Wales, England and Scotland?

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brianthebard

boreds wrote:

Timeline according to mee...

They used to be Celts, some parts still have roots, Irish Celts tried to invade, Romans invaded, Vikings invaded (but not Norwegians, they were for us) Normans Invaded (and we 'ínvited them over' which marked the beginning of the end for us), Plantaginet, Huguenots sp) The Monarchy is gaining momentum with Christianty on its side, Henry 8th invented Protestantism, Tudor era, Started to steal our land in titanic proportions, Empire expands, Industrial revolution, Georgian era (leave lovely buildings in Dublin) Victorian era (leave some more useful stuff for us), WW1, Ireland no longer in Commonwealth, Germans try to Invade-WW2, Rock music, World cup 1966, Princess Diana dies 1997, Help 'mericans invade Iraq. London Bombs (not by Ira)

That's a pretty messy jumble of events, but does show what people think of when they think of britain. I just asked the original question because people like to complain about britain, 800 years etc, but actually seem to know very little about the countries they are complaining about. That said I find the level of interest in our own countries history quite low too, even amongst university history students, which is a bit annonying tbh.

mountainyman

PeakOutput wrote:

scotland yes but much earlier on not sure about wales but i assume so........

Scotland was NOT forced to join the Union after the Darien fiasco the Scottish Ruling class sought alliance with England.

MM

mountainyman

robinph wrote:

Wasn't it England being "forced" to join with Scotland though when a Scottish king took over the pair of them? James the something of Scotland and the something else of England.

6th of Scotland 1st of England. I presume he was the closest non Catholic relative of the Tudors (maybe not) the English Aristocracy invited him to become their king. I don't know teh details.

bmaxi

PeakOutput wrote:

that legend we all know and love william of orange was actually a catholic sanctioned to come into ireland(dont know why presumably to take control) by the monarchy AND the vatican

t

And the Pope is my grandmother.

Much as we hate to admit it British history is compelling stuff and all the begrudgery in the world won't alter the fact that a small island off the coast off Europe once ruled half the known world. Notwithstanding a bit of butchery here and there, their contribution in terms of politics, medicine, science, industry etc.is remarkable. It's galling I know but the Brits have been responsible for a lot of good stuff too.

Dyr

bmaxi wrote:

Much as we hate to admit it British history is compelling stuff and all the begrudgery in the world won't alter the fact that a small island off the coast off Europe once ruled half the known world.

And now their government has to pander to the ethnic minorities that they once overlorded to stay in power and their cities are being colonised by their ex colonies. imperialism is its own reward

Zonko

WhiteWashMan wrote:

now theres someone who knows nothing at all about british history.

the one thing you cant say is that it isnt interesting.

Now there's someone who doesn't know the history of anywhere else. Comparatively to most countries, Britains history is really not that interesting.

JaysusMacfeck

What to be know about Britain? It's a bit more British than Irleand, but not by much.

robinph

Zonko wrote:

Now there's someone who doesn't know the history of anywhere else. Comparatively to most countries, Britains history is really not that interesting.

Not sure how you come to that conclusion considering that the history of Britain will involve most other countries on the planet at some point or other. What is your definition of an interesting history then?

Sangre

Zonko wrote:

Britain doesn't have a very interesting history. In school I learnt the guts of it, and I know it as well as I'd know most other countries but there's not the huge gap in knowledge I think you're suggesting for most people.

You consider the history of arguably the most powerful empire ever as uninteresting? What does it take to float your boat?

brianthebard

Zonko wrote:

Now there's someone who doesn't know the history of anywhere else. Comparatively to most countries, Britains history is really not that interesting.

I'd love to see your scale of interesting history.:rolleyes:

WindSock

brianthebard wrote:

That said I find the level of interest in our own countries history quite low too, even amongst university history students, which is a bit annonying tbh.

I really wasn't arsed with my country's history and geography, I took it for granted because I lived here. I lived abroad for a while and came back to here out of interest in my own heritage. Ive re-opened up my doodled-on-every-page school history books now with an interest. Our/British history is far more interesting than many, I don't know how anyone could say it isnt. Try living in New Zealand, where there really is sweet f.a in terms of history.

brianthebard

I can imagine, everything before 1830? would be pre-history huh?

WindSock

Yeah, both islands have only been occupied for about 800 years apparantly, and while Maori culture is very interesting, there just isn't enough to keep me in awe. We had our stone age ages ago. And built cooler monuments

Hagar

boreds wrote:

...have only been occupied for about 800 years...

There's a coincidence... Did I ever tell you about my grandfather and the Black & Tans?...;)

kizzyr

brianthebard wrote:

Well as a history student *cough cough* I'd like to think I know a good bit about Britain, but there are fairly large gaps where Wales and Scotland are involved. (not that wales ever did much). I have come to the (totally unsubstantiated) conclusion that Irish people actually know very little about Britain's history, since its never directly taught until Uni level and even then there's no module devoted to Britain (in NUIM at least afaik). Our nations histories are so closely linked, but how much do people here really know about Wales, England and Scotland?

Maybe things have changed but I studied history at NUIM (graduated 2000) and there was a module devoted entirely to the history of England and its evolution into the British empire. It was very interesting, well to me at least. As for how much we know about it? schools can't teach us everything and if you can read then there is nothing to stop you picking up a book and learning yourself is there:)
As for the cross over of English history and Irish history, I think the reason so many people in the UK know so little (and much of it is inaccurate) about Irish history and their involvement in it is because its much more important to us than them, after all we were only a tiny part in the empire that was Great Britain and covered one fifth of the globe at one point.

JaysusMacfeck

And Irish history is bad history. You don't teach the bad stuff.

Thrill

kizzyr wrote:

It was very interesting, well to me at least.

History, it would seem, is like music, movies, comedy etc, liked by some, an absolute bore to others

T.V presenter:

"And now we join Johnston Winthrope-Smythe as he takes us on a journey through English history and tells us about King Henry the Eight..."

Me:
*yawn*

Johnston Winthrop-Smythe:

"welcome, this is where Henry the Eight was born on that fateful day in..."

Me:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

.

kizzyr

thrill wrote:

History, it would seem, is like music, movies, comedy etc, liked by some, an absolute bore to others

T.V presenter:

"And now we join Johnston Winthrope-Smythe as he takes us on a journey through English history and tells us about King Henry the Eight..."

Me:
*yawn*

Johnston Winthrop-Smythe:

"welcome, this is where Henry the Eight was born on that fateful day in..."

Me:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

.

LOL you couldn't be more right really. I think history either interests you or it doesn't. Me...I'm a complete addict and have always been hugely interested in history and its social consequences. I do however think it is important that everyone has at least a basic understanding of world events and sometimes knowing a bit about historical events allows this.

kizzyr

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

And Irish history is bad history. You don't teach the bad stuff.

All depends on who is doing the teaching. What part of Irish history do you think is bad and so hasn't been taught?

Marksie

robinph wrote:

Wasn't it England being "forced" to join with Scotland though when a Scottish king took over the pair of them? James the something of Scotland and the something else of England.

The stewart line. in 1603, and the union with england finally happened in 1707
Sort of came a cropper at Charles I for a while
After the first civil war Charles I went to the Scots for help (they had an army encamped at newcastle), on january 28th 1647 in return for £400,000 they returned with their army to scotland, leaving Charles in english hands leading to teh jibe "traitor scot sold his king for a groat"

"And Irish history is bad history. You don't teach the bad stuff."
yes actually you do. The stories of cromwellian abuses against civilians in drogheda and wexford have "No basis in fact"* and were in fact exaggerated by the clergy and became enshrined and taught as "history" to exemplify english excess.

Nroman davies states that the the majority of schools in countries teach nationalist history, so it is hardly surprising that one country may not know anothers history.**

*Historian Tom Reilly (note civilians is used here, he slaughtered the garrisons)

**Europe: A history.

To say that british jistory is boring is narrow minded and missing the whole point. The more you read, the more you understand how everything British, Irish, European is entwined.
What you are taught in schools may be as simple as a list of dates and names exploring things more deeply uncovers a lot more about where we are now.

If you are TV minded, one of the best about british history i have seen is Simon schama's a history of britain. It really makes it come alive.

Corruptedmorals

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

And Irish history is bad history. You don't teach the bad stuff.

You don't even believe there IS an Irish language! It's not Gaelic.

robinph

kizzyr wrote:

All depends on who is doing the teaching. What part of Irish history do you think is bad and so hasn't been taught?

Any bits that might get taught in English schools maybe?

JaysusMacfeck

kizzyr wrote:

All depends on who is doing the teaching. What part of Irish history do you think is bad and so hasn't been taught?

What I was saying was that in Irish history lessons, you aren't taught about all the IRA bombings of innocent British people, and all the other problems Ireland and its people caused Britain in general.

On the flip side, Britain is hardly going to teach it's pupils about little old Ireland's misfortunes at the hands of the 'oh so evil' British.

Corruptedmorals wrote:

You don't even believe there IS an Irish language! It's not Gaelic.

If I hear somebody speaking Polish/Russian/Czech, I'll just call it Slavic, it all sounds the same to my ears. Gaelic is one language with different dialects, "Irish" being one of them. Anyway, totally off topic!

brianthebard

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

If I hear somebody speaking Polish/Russian/Czech, I'll just call it Slavic, it all sounds the same to my ears. Gaelic is one language with different dialects, "Irish" being one of them. Anyway, totally off topic!

That's complete bull.

JaysusMacfeck

Great argument.

brianthebard

Its as good as yours.

WindSock

Hagar wrote:

There's a coincidence... Did I ever tell you about my grandfather and the Black & Tans?...;)

Ah but the Black n Tans were only around for a few years, and they didn't cook and eat us (not as far as I know anyway, that bit wasn't in my schoolbooks)

patrickc

who gives a crap.. not me anyhow (history is history dead and gone)

jesus_thats_gre

WhiteWashMan wrote:

now you are just mixing up british with english.

is this denial, or are you just dumb?

and if you actually bothered to look, the southern ireland thing is merely a geo-political reference against northern ireland.

seriously, why do you get upset enough at things like this? so very very very irish.

Am not upset in the slightest

kizzyr

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

What I was saying was that in Irish history lessons, you aren't taught about all the IRA bombings of innocent British people, and all the other problems Ireland and its people caused Britain in general.

On the flip side, Britain is hardly going to teach it's pupils about little old Ireland's misfortunes at the hands of the 'oh so evil' British.

If I hear somebody speaking Polish/Russian/Czech, I'll just call it Slavic, it all sounds the same to my ears. Gaelic is one language with different dialects, "Irish" being one of them. Anyway, totally off topic!

Ireland feels their history and the part the British Empire played in it much more acutely. For us it was all about us against them, for the British we were just one tiny part in their empire and while what happened here wasn't good it was part and parcel of the imperialistic attitudes in empire building at the time. The manner in which Ireland was treated was no different to how the people of Australia, South Africa, America, India etc were treated by the same empire. The Spanish and Portuguese in South America hardly treated the people they found there well........and the list goes on.
While I find the ignorance of Irish history (and their involvement in it) that is to be found among the people of the UK baffling it simply isn't as important to them as it is to us. However the point you made about people not wanting to admit to the worst parts of their history is true and that happens the world over. One example is the fixation here on Cromwell, no one is willing to look at any more of the story than what happened in Drogheda, the social circumstances at the time etc etc, in school we were told he was a bad and evil person who destroyed the Irish people end of. :rolleyes: