paying for neighbour's electricity

pwd

We've been renting our apartment for a number of months. It's in a converted georgian house.
Our last two esb bills were very high. (the ones before had been based on estimates). The most recent one was for 485 euro for two months. Two people working during the day and not usin much.
We turned off everything in the house and looked at the meter. It was still going around faster than any of the other meters. We went on holiday fo a week then and took readings before we left and when we returned. The meter reading was much higher when we returned.
We noticed a timeswitch in the hall outside our flat, which was set to always on. We turned it off. We stopped having hot water.
This morning our next door neighbour had an electriian round to investigate why she had no hot water. The hot water for her apartment is from the same timeswitch.
There is also a switch board for power beside the timeswitch. I turned thigs off one by one util everything in our flat had no power. Then i went and looked at the meter. It was no longer going around.
The girl next door came out and said her power had just gone off.
I told her what i was doing. She said that when she moved in the landlord's agent had told her to register with the esb. The esb said her apartment didn't exist. The landlord's agent then told her that her esb was covereed by the landlord and her apartment didn't have its own meter.
But now it seems pretty clear that her esb is not being covered by the landlord, who seems to be a major investor with numerous properties (according to google) and at least one hotel (according to his agent). Her esb is being covered by us!

jesus_thats_gre

That is very good of you

copacetic

fair dues to you, very charitable!

on the serious side, she musn't have a supply direct to the apt so it isn't
going to be easy to add one. not sure it is going to be a quick fix for you..

I presume you have the same landlord? Kick up a fuss in a hurry and see
what he comes back with. You should get money back off him and get him
to get something sorted or else pay your bill (with hers) from now on

FX Meister

I would go mad if I was in your position. It's hard to work out who has been using how much electricity so I would expect as least half the bill to be returned to me by the landlord.

Besprechen

feckin landlord, if he doesnt do something in a week, ring ESB and tell them you no longer want electric, get it cut off, preferably when you're going away for a few days, and force the git to act.

Lex Luthor

Besprechen wrote:

feckin landlord, if he doesnt do something in a week, ring ESB and tell them you no longer want electric, get it cut off, preferably when you're going away for a few days, and force the git to act.

not ideal if you have a freezer full of food.

if the landlord has a deal set up with the neighbour then he should be reimbursing you with half of all your bills

pwd

We're using much less than half the amount of electricity we've being billed for.
I sent the landlord an email adapted from the original post. I'll ring him later when i have credit in my phone. I said we need this sort out and our money repaid.

copacetic

yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if your neighbour was going nuts with the lecky since she knew she wasn't going to have to pay for it..

yabadabado

i think the only option is for the landlord to pay ur esb get it included in the rent coz i think it will be a fairly big job to get it sorted in the other flat.if i was u i wud turn everything off on the way to work in the morning that way u not payin for someone else and if it affecting the other flat the landlord mite act bit quicker if there a few people on his back

TCollins

I second that. Put a lock on the fuse box and turn it off. When the neighbor pesters the landlord enough about having no electricity he'll do something.
They cant do anything to you for turning off your own electricity

Victor

There may be a situation of theft here, although its usually the ESB is the victim, in this case its you.

Heard a story of a guy in Italy who started pulling fuses when he got his electricity bill. All the street lights went off.

pwd

I've been in touch with the landlord. He says this is all news to him - which I'm inclined to believe. The flat had previously been used for short-term corporate lettings, where the esb would have been covered by the landlord as a matter of course. His agent, who had been working for him directly (not part of an agency), had asked our neighbour to register with the esb when she movede in, and it was he who then said the esb was covered by the landlord. Which was probably an assumption on his part when he was told the flat was not registered with the esb.
As regards turning the power off at the source when we are at work: The fusebox is in the hall, and I think that it would be unfair to the neighbour.
Anyway, the landlord is coming around to the flat shortly, and my gf has taken a day off to be there to show him how things are. Hopefully the girl next door will be there - since if she's out and has nothing on then it might be difficult to demonstrate.
As far as it being theft - it's only theft if he's doing it intentionally, as I understand it - and so far he's been quite reasonable to deal with. I don't intend to "get nasty" unless he does first.
Thanks for all your responses so far.

pwd

Incidentally, I posted a link to here in the legal discussions forum, where there is discussion on the legal viewpoint of the issue:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055064026

Lex Luthor

where is the meter? In the hall or your apt?

pwd

The meter is in the hall (beside the front door). we are on the second floor

pwd

The landlord came to the flat and saw the way things are this morning. My girlfriend was there to meet him
He gave us a 500 euro cheque to cover the current bill (485).

This is what he said to my gf:
He's going to find out how much 2 bedroom flats generally use (we live in a one-bedroom flat). He will cover the difference between our bill and that estimated figure. We will cover 70% of the estimated bill. This will be backdated. From now on the neighbour will cover 30% of the esb used on the floor. I don't know if he meant that he would cover the excess from "normal" bills in the future as well - apparently this seeme dto be what he was saying. He talked to the neighbour and asked her to be frugal with electricity use from now on.

I'm not particularly happy with this suggestion. I'd rather just pay our own esb bills. The 70-30 ratio is unfair, since the neighbour uses far more electricity than we do. all parties seem to acknowledge this and there is no reason to assume she will suddenly start using half the amount we do.

Jo King

I have seen devices in the electrical suppliers which calculate the amount of electricity consumed in specific parts of a building. They are relatively inexpensive. He should buy one for you. This corporate let business sounds like rubbish. Where are his bills for this? If he has bills he would have had an account which could be re-activated. The reality is that your flat was being billed for it, and he must have known about it.

DublinDilbert

To be honest I wouldn't except that he did not know about it.... He was very quick to hand over €500 for something he knew nothing about...

At the end of the day he is the landlord and it is his responsibility to make sure all the wiring is up to scratch & safe before renting out either appartment, ignorance is no excuse, he has a duty of care to those who rent off him.

I think at this stage he should be getting a survey done of the electrical wiring for the complete building, god only knows what way the 2nd appartment was added to the wiring...

pwd

Jo King: Do you have a link for one of those devices please? I suspect they might be difficult to wire in.

Tigger

pwd wrote:

The landlord came to the flat and saw the way things are this morning. My girlfriend was there to meet him
He gave us a 500 euro cheque to cover the current bill (485).

least he should do but as another poster pointed out that was surprisingly quick

but at least it confirms what we thought

This is what he said to my gf:
He's going to find out how much 2 bedroom flats generally use (we live in a one-bedroom flat). He will cover the difference between our bill and that estimated figure. We will cover 70% of the estimated bill.

if i'm reading this right that seems fair

70% of estimated not 70 % of acuall estimated bills in two be apts will be quite small

This will be backdated.

so will you be getting a rebate? fair again

From now on the neighbour will cover 30% of the esb used on the floor. I don't know if he meant that he would cover the excess from "normal" bills in the future as well - apparently this seeme dto be what he was saying. He talked to the neighbour and asked her to be frugal with electricity use from now on.

pwd; i'd just assume that he means he'll be covering the excess from your 70% of estimated and her 30% of total draw up a document to that effect and get all parties to sign up. As the lecky is in your name you have every right to expect some written clarification

I'm not particularly happy with this suggestion. I'd rather just pay our own esb bills. The 70-30 ratio is unfair, since the neighbour uses far more electricity than we do. all parties seem to acknowledge this and there is no reason to assume she will suddenly start using half the amount we do.

shouldn't make any diff if you just type up the docu as i interperet it you payment will be 70% of the estimated for a 2 - bed
this also has the advantage that yer bills will be regular
now here is a link to some hid lamps

pwd

We're getting a rebate yeah.
If it's 70% of a fair estimate then it's acceptable. 70% of the full amount is not acceptable. We'll have to decide ourselves what fair is. An estimate based on bills during the winter is going to be higher than it should be for instance.
Seems like it's being resolved in a satisfactory manner. The rent is decent for what and where it is, and I'm aware rents in dublin have gone up generally recently, so we'll try to be agreeable with working this out.
Thanks again for the responses.

Jo King

I saw the devices in Dolphin Electric. It is a trade suppliers to the building business on the South Circular Rd. Dolphins barn, Dublin 8. You can probably find a phone number for them in the phone book. They are not difficult to install.

Victor

A lot of energy use is per property, not per person - one fridge, one TV, one set of lights, one oven. Two people in one apartment might only use 30-50% more electricty than one person in one apartment.

That would be a somewhere between a 60:40 and a 56:43 split. Certainly one person is unlikely to use less than half the electricity of two people implied by 70:30 (35:35:30).

TCollins

I wouldnt go for 70% if i were you.
I would ask for your own meter.
Thin about it like this.
If electricity only cost you 30% of what it normally costs wouldnt you use it like it was water? I'n sure your neighbor will.

Tigger

TCollins wrote:

I wouldnt go for 70% if i were you.
I would ask for your own meter.
Thin about it like this.
If electricity only cost you 30% of what it normally costs wouldnt you use it like it was water? I'n sure your neighbor will.

30% of the estimated usage in a 2bed flat
not of the acuall usage

a new meter would mean a whole floor re-wireto split the circuits and then re-plastering painting etc
nobody will want that

pwd

No actually it seems like he's suggesting 30% of actual usage. Which is not acceptable

talkingclock

I have a kind of similar situation here as the OP has.

Two semidetached houses, meters outside. This week we discovered that my meter is counting the neighburs electricity and vice versa (we switched off the main fuse to see which meter wheel stopped). we discovered this as they were assigned the meter readings (utterly different figures) to the wrong meters.

Now they have to recalculate the bills for the last nine months as we refuse to pay. Clearly not our fault if some clown is connecting the meter on house number 45 to the electricity system of house number 44!

Muppets!

Tigger

pwd wrote:

No actually it seems like he's suggesting 30% of actual usage. Which is not acceptable

70/30

on what grounds

is she living on her own

1 flat should be 1 share

Tigger

talkingclock wrote:

I have a kind of similar situation here as the OP has.

Two semidetached houses, meters outside. This week we discovered that my meter is counting the neighburs electricity and vice versa (we switched off the main fuse to see which meter wheel stopped). we discovered this as they were assigned the meter readings (utterly different figures) to the wrong meters.

Now they have to recalculate the bills for the last nine months as we refuse to pay. Clearly not our fault if some clown is connecting the meter on house number 45 to the electricity system of house number 44!

Muppets!

nice

a shop unit meter i was running had not been read in 5 years
they finially copped and called in
i pointed out we were only there 3 years and had only started using electricity for the previous 12 hours

the esb had no leg to stand on so we paid nothing the meter was read and we pay from now on

saved thousands

no wonder they need to use dutch postoffice boxes

MarkR

I don't think I could live with sharing the esb with a neighbour. For all you know she has the immersion on 25/7 and has an indoor hydroponics facility!

I guess it must be some work but surely in the long run the landlord should have to have two seperate measureable boxes for two apartments. You didn't consent to sharing the bills with this other lady, what if she decides she's a bit short one month?

Get landlord to get a qualified electrician in, or maybe the esb itself in this case (haven't a clue)

stepbar

Is he that cheap that he cant get the house isolated? I.e put each flat on a meter? Its not that hard to do when all the wires are there.

I would not be happy with the present setup at all.

pwd

update on this:

well we got another huge bill at the start of last month.
We've been busy. Got in touch with him this week and he admitted he had not done anything about changing the situation. Arranged to meet him this evening. My gf rang him to confirm that this afternoon and he said he wouldn't be over and that it was compliated to sort out with the esb - since they have him down as having 4 meters for 4 apartments - whereas actually there are 5 (or 6?) - so he wasn't going to change it in the near future. If we want to move out at the end of our lease grand (june) and if we make a reasonable suggestion for reimbursement for what has been paid so far ok too.

Seems dodgy as hell. Not chomping on the bit to move out as the rent is good, and as far as I know they are still generally unusally high in dublin at the moment. But also not wanting to have a load of hassle and ridiculous bills.

replytohere2004

could an electrician put one of those coin meters in the other flat?
€20 on ebay or even one of these yokes

Victor

I seriously think you need to up the ante on this and get a solicitor.

mukki

why don't you just move? sure god knows what other ways he is cutting costs,

sharing meter with a neighbour? just split it 70:30
lead pipes?, just run the tap for a few mins
abspestos roof? sure just wear a mask

pwd

The landlord's agent called yesterday and said that our neighbour had said she'd no hot water. I told him that the timeswitch for it was between the two flats in the hall - and that it had been set to 24hour. When we found this out we kept it off. It had been turned to 24hr a couple of times since and we had just turned it off -we don't know/talk to our neighbour and we are getting huge bills.
He said that they couldn't change the meters because the flat wasn't registered. I said it's not registered with the esb or it's not registered at all? He said pardon I repeated myself he said he didn't know.
He said that the esb wouldn't divide the house any more so that the landlord was going to rennovate the floor and convert it into one two-bedroom apartment when our lease runs out at the end of next month - and asked me if that was ok. I said he was giving me a lot of information at once and that we'd have to think about this.
Then he said they'd make sure we weren't out of pocket and that we could be compensated - he said the landlord would call yesterday evening to make a suggestion. He didn't call.

pwd

My gf rang the esb to check that the last bill was paid - he said he was going to pay that. It wasn't. Then she rang again to talk to someone in network supply.
They said that there would be no problem with installing another meter - and also that it's illegal to run two households from one meter. So the landlord was lying when he said they couldn't add another one.
Then my gf rang the landlord. He admitted that he was not allowed to have more than four apartments in the house, after having a court case with the neighbours. So he's admitted he's breaking the law and that the 5th apartment is not registered.
Even now he's quibbling about how much to repay us. He's caused a huge amount of hassle with all this. I intend to notify the relevant people - whoever they are - about this situation.

Agent J

You have him by the balls now it seems...

Forgive me if the questions have already been answered.

Are you registered with the PRTB?

www.prtb.ie

Now you would know this because you can check it with them and they would have sent you a letter to the registered address. IE whatever address you are at.

If he hasnt he can be done for that and if he has multiple places then he can be done for all of them. Now you can take a complaint to them even if he hasnt registered you with them but the beautiful part is that he cant take a complaint because he is the landlord.

Not to mention revenue.

If it was me personally i would play hard ball with this one if you are going to be leaving anyway.

You can also ring up the ESB and tell them you are moving and get them to change the name to your landlords name. I would suggest thinking about doing this asap as it moves responability from you to your landlord.

blah

Great story! Hooray for the little guy! Down with greeedy landlords!

(Edit: just realised this was posted ages ago)

pwd

Posted ages ago but still not resolved
Since then a strange man let himself into our apartment when my gf was there alone and asleep - scared the carp out of her. He was mortified - an electrician the landlord had told to go over and given a key.
And he cut off our hot water.
He said to move out by the end of june. He didn't give us written notice so we don't have to.
Here's a draft of an email to him. We'll send him something tonight:


Further to our discussion with you, you have made no effort to come to some arrangement with us. Rather you seem to be trying to bully us.

-You gave a man a key to our apartment and told him to enter without telling us. He came in while (my gf) was alone and asleep and scared her quite badly.

-You appear to have cut off our hot water - and our cold water temporarily. We told you we have not been using the hot water. This does not mean you should cut it off without asking or even informing us.

-You told us another meter could not be installed in the house. When we contacted the esb this was revealed to be untrue.

We will be leaving apartment (address) by the end of July. This is our 42-day written notice as required by law. http://threshold.ie/menu.asp?menu=83.

We have been in touch with threshold. Both advisors we spoke to were shocked at this situation and strongly urged us to take it up with the PRTB. Even now we would rather avoid the stress associated with what we are told is a drawn out process, especially when dealing with unregistered landlords. However if we are not satisfied with your response we will do so. We have given you far more than a fair amount of time to rectify things - it has been six months since we first spoke!

We had inexplicably high esb bills last winter which caused us a great deal of worry stress and confusion. Eventually we were shocked to figure out that our neighbour was on our esb meter. Then we told you about this in good faith that the situation would be sorted out.
Since then you have fobbed us off, lied to us, not turned up when we arranged to meet you without calling to say, been rude to us, hung up the phone on us, cut off our hot water, invited at least one man to enter our home without our knowledge or consent. We have tolerated all this politely, trying and failing to get you to communicate with us in a reasonable manner.

From this point on we will only communicate with you in writing, unless absolutely necessary to do otherwise.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

babytooth

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

and the guards,
make his life awkward.

he facilitated breaking and entering. there are laws there for you to use.

MysticalSoul

When he said he wasn't registered, it could be to do with The Land Registry too (all new known addresses are supposed to be registered with them).

Do you have his PPS Number?

pwd

don't have his pps number.
He's not registered with anyone for the flat - he admitted he has no planning permission for it.

dudara

Time to seek professional legal advice.

Obviously he's not registered with the PRTB, because otherwise you would have his PPS number.

I would also estimate that the electricity consumed by two flats would be approximately equal, but slightly greater for the 2-person flat. So you are definitely owed a significant rebate.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Victor

dudara wrote:

I would also estimate that the electricity consumed by two flats would be approximately equal, but slightly greater for the 2-person flat. So you are definitely owed a significant rebate.

A one person apartment uses almost as much energy as a two person apartment - one fridge, one cooker, one TV, same heating, same lights and water heating would only be slightly less as a similar amount of hot water gets wasted. However in this case, someone was leaving hte hot water on 24x7 as they weren't paying for it.

babytooth

Victor wrote:

A one person apartment uses almost as much energy as a two person apartment - one fridge, one cooker, one TV, same heating, same lights and water heating would only be slightly less as a similar amount of hot water gets wasted. However in this case, someone was leaving hte hot water on 24x7 as they weren't paying for it.

you dont need anything, not even his name....

ring the esb and tell them that your landlord was messing with the meter and you can smell burning and that there was sparks, you think he was fiddling with the meters...they'l move on that pronto.

Ring the corpo and tell them that your landlord has built an extra apartment w.out planning permission and that the extension proves a health hazard.

Ring the revenue and tell them that your landlord is not declaring his rental income. claim you rent relief, its worth 640 euro to you this year and 600 from last year, all you need to do is fill in the Rent Form 1, you dont need his pps number at all.... 1200 odd euro, that pays a months rent, or a nice holiday...and it is your money so claim it.

http://www.revenue.ie/forms/rent1.pdf

fill it in, and attach a note stating that the landlord won't give you his pps, just put his name down, they'l find him in about 10 minutes...thats all you need.

Ring the PTRB and make a complaint that your tennancy is not registered, they will ask you a few questions such as the address, amount of tennancys in that address and the landlords name...give them all the details that you have and let them do the rest....
http://www.prtb.ie/pubregfaq.htm

If i was you, i'd speak to a solicotor and make a formal comlaint to the guards on the issue of breaking and entering. Get a copy of all complaints, then present them in written format to the landlord.

I know this may appear like hassle, but you really should claim your rent and should report him. I mean, if you do nothing then he continues to do the wrong thing over and over, and really, its all you deserve if you do nothing about it, the whole saying "for evil to propser

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

WizZard

Pursue this matter, please.
It's not worth letting landlords like that get away with this kind of thing.

intheknow

babytooth wrote:

you dont need anything, not even his name....

ring the esb and tell them that your landlord was messing with the meter and you can smell burning and that there was sparks, you think he was fiddling with the meters...they'l move on that pronto.

Ring the corpo and tell them that your landlord has built an extra apartment w.out planning permission and that the extension proves a health hazard.

Ring the revenue and tell them that your landlord is not declaring his rental income. claim you rent relief, its worth 640 euro to you this year and 600 from last year, all you need to do is fill in the Rent Form 1, you dont need his pps number at all.... 1200 odd euro, that pays a months rent, or a nice holiday...and it is your money so claim it.

http://www.revenue.ie/forms/rent1.pdf

fill it in, and attach a note stating that the landlord won't give you his pps, just put his name down, they'l find him in about 10 minutes...thats all you need.

Ring the PTRB and make a complaint that your tennancy is not registered, they will ask you a few questions such as the address, amount of tennancys in that address and the landlords name...give them all the details that you have and let them do the rest....
http://www.prtb.ie/pubregfaq.htm

If i was you, i'd speak to a solicotor and make a formal comlaint to the guards on the issue of breaking and entering. Get a copy of all complaints, then present them in written format to the landlord.

I know this may appear like hassle, but you really should claim your rent and should report him. I mean, if you do nothing then he continues to do the wrong thing over and over, and really, its all you deserve if you do nothing about it, the whole saying "for evil to propser

They will all be after him at the same time..Glad I am not his postman...or his doorbell !!