Why did Germany bomb Dublin in 1941?

silverharp

Given that Dublin didn't have a blackout it would have been obvious that they were not over the UK. Was it payback for the Fire brigade going up to Belfast the previous month? at the same time why risk pushing Ireland into the war?

KTRIC

Some of the bombs were dropped on Clontarf beach by pilots that had to get rid of their ordinance to conserve fuel to fly home (or back to a carrier). Others missed the English target and didn't want to return without giving the impression they had completed their mission.

mike65

Dublin was bombed as a warning to stay out of helping the UK (by helping the
firefighting in Belfast).

Mike.

TerrorFirmer

mike65 wrote:

Dublin was bombed as a warning to stay out of helping the UK (by helping the
firefighting in Belfast).

Mike.

That's not certain, although possible, not proven in any way.

As for pushing Ireland into the war, at the time, hostilities with Ireland and it's laughable army would have meant nothing to Germany, so even if it was deliberate it was not so much a 'risk' like you are saying.

edit: also K-Tric, the germans never had an operational carrier during the second world war. Just to be anal.

silverharp

HavoK wrote:

As for pushing Ireland into the war, at the time, hostilities with Ireland and it's laughable army would have meant nothing to Germany, so even if it was deliberate it was not so much a 'risk' like you are saying.

If Irl had joined the war the RAF could have attacked the U Boats from the west coast of Ireland. that would have been the main contribution, and risk for the Germans

Thinking about it the fact that it was the coast that was bombed maybe indicates that they were dumping their bombs. I have never heard of any of the pilots being interviewed, pity.

Fratton Fred

I would guess that this would have been more of a panic action by thepilots than a deliberate one.

I grew up just north of Portsmouth and my village was bombed several times, even though there was nothing there worth bombing, this was mainly put down to German pilots over shooting their target (Portsmouth Harbour) and then jetisoning their bombs when they came under attack from RAF fighters. getting shot of several tonnes of bombs makes your plane a lot faster and more agile I guess.

mike65

As Dublin was lit (in as far as any town here was lit back in the 40s) they'd have to be pretty bad pilots to end up ditching the munitions on land and not over the Irish sea a few seconds flying time away.

Found this but be warned its by Robert Fisk!

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19990124/ai_n9658899

Worth a read - never heard of this before - note the date.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,772533,00.html

Mike.

Mrs. MacGyver

Wasn't there a documentary on RTE1 some weeks ago on this, something like hidden history? It was in no way accidental. I agree with SilverharpThere were German Spies infiltrating Ireland at the time and i think it was retribution for the Dublin fire-brigage helping out when Belfast was bombed in the Blitz or it could have been a ploy by the German's to push neutral Ireland in to taking sides in the war. I live on the North Strand and our house just survived with minor enough damage (the house next to it was obliterated. It's strange walking down by the north strand past newcomen bridge on the way to work thinking of what happened all those years ago and that the corporatin flats, take away and cafe have taken their place as if there was never a gap in this part of the landscape.

See below for link to dublin city council pictures after the event:
http://www.dublincity.ie/living_in_the_city/libraries/heritage_and_history/north_strand_bombings/index.asp

Fratton Fred

This is unrelated, but it may be of interest as it shows how my forefathers spent their time during the war.

There is a lot of publicity around the bombing of london, but my home town had a fair bit of it as well. This website is difficult to find unless you are looking for it.

http://www.portsdown-tunnels.org.uk/

silverharp

silverharp wrote:

If Irl had joined the war the RAF could have attacked the U Boats from the west coast of Ireland. that would have been the main contribution,

If the Royal Navy had access to ports on the west cost, they would have been better able to escort the convoys across the atlantic. U-boats used to lay just off the coast in wait for the convoys.

Convoys could have sheltered off the west coast as well while en-route between the UK & North America.

Victor

Some were accidents, bombers mistaking Dublin for Belfast.

I thought Dublin did have a blackout.

ScottishDanny

Some of the bombs were dropped on Clontarf beach by pilots that had to get rid of their ordinance to conserve fuel to fly home (or back to a carrier).

Germans didn't have carriers. (not trying to sound like a smart@rse honest!)

I had heard one 'out-there' theory that Churchill did it to blame on Germany and get Ireland into the war (promising Dev the 6 counties in exchange). Sounds far fetched but he was very keen to get Eire involved and was livid that the treaty ports had been given back to Ireland in 1938.
If it was deliberate Luftwaffe bombing it would be more effective surely
But if that were true why would the West German government give the Irish government reparations money in the 60's? (Which they used to build the Ballymun flats). Perhaps we'll never know. For my money I reckon they were stray rounds and the pilot was off course. If not aiming for Belfast perhaps Liverpool?

Capt'n Midnight

silverharp wrote:

If Irl had joined the war the RAF could have attacked the U Boats from the west coast of Ireland. that would have been the main contribution, and risk for the Germans

There were flying boats based on Lough Erin for that purpose. We let them fly directly to the coast instead of flying up around Donegal.

Capt'n Midnight

ScottishDanny wrote:

I had heard one 'out-there' theory that Churchill did it to blame on Germany and get Ireland into the war (promising Dev the 6 counties in exchange). Sounds far fetched but he was very keen to get Eire involved and was livid that the treaty ports had been given back to Ireland in 1938.

Churchill did suggest that he'd give the 6 counties back if we joined the UK ( this was before pearl harbour, Spain , Sweden and Switzerland like ourselves and a lot of Eastern Europe were still neutral) , but with nothing in writing he couldn't be trusted. The UK had sank the French fleet in harbour and were fighting in some of the French colonies too. I can't remember if Iceland or Persia had been invaded then, and there was the whole Winter War thing up in Finland too.

TerrorFirmer

The Winter war ended long before the bombings...

Capt'n Midnight

Well they were doing some thing up there then and it wasn't tea and bickies

Shutuplaura

I've heard a theory that each of the times ireland was bombed were shortly after a mention of irish neutrality in the house of commons. The idea being to warn the irish what would happen if they sided with the UK. who knows though.

Irish airbases would have been of great use to the allies during the war as lough Erne wasn't big enough for anything more that recon aircraft. I'm sure naval bases on Irlands coast would have made patrols easier. I'm not an expert though but I'm certain that was the fealing in the UK at the time - the British press refered to a gap in the atlantic.

man1

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Churchill did suggest that he'd give the 6 counties back if we joined the UK ( this was before pearl harbour, Spain , Sweden and Switzerland like ourselves and a lot of Eastern Europe were still neutral) , but with nothing in writing he couldn't be trusted.

If it was suggested at all and I dont believe it was, then it would have been put in writing of course. Can you imagine Dev falling for that one!

Ring, Ring.....

"good afternoon the Taoiseach's office"

"hello is that Eamon"

"yes, whos that?"

"its winston here"

"whats up"

"can you guys give up your neutrality and join us in the war"

"Ha! why should we?"

"eamon, we will give you back the 6 counties"

"really, thats great, just send over the treaty and other paperwork to be signed and we can go right ahead after thats done"

"ah come on why would you need it in writing old buddy old pal, you can trust your old english mate... I give you my word, that we will return the 6 counties,promise, scouts honour"

"ah sure ok then"

I dont think so!!!!!

Capt'n Midnight

man1 wrote:

I dont think so!!!!!

Especially since FF wouldn't have a chance of an overall majority in the 32 counties.

vesp

Shutuplaura wrote:

Irish airbases would have been of great use to the allies during the war as lough Erne wasn't big enough for anything more that recon aircraft. I'm sure naval bases on Irlands coast would have made patrols easier. .

True

Shutuplaura wrote:

I'm not an expert though but I'm certain that was the fealing in the UK at the time - the British press refered to a gap in the atlantic.

Many a merchant seaman - some of whom were Irish - died in the North Atlantic during the battle of the Atlantic as a result. In fact at one stage the u-boat threat was so real and deadly it looked as if the result of the battle of the Atlantic and the whole course of the war was in jeopardy.

Victor

Shutuplaura wrote:

Irish airbases would have been of great use to the allies during the war as lough Erne wasn't big enough for anything more that recon aircraft.

Not big enough?

ScottishDanny wrote:

If it was deliberate Luftwaffe bombing it would be more effective surely But if that were true why would the West German government give the Irish government reparations money in the 60's?

Whether by accident or design, the loser pays reparations.

(Which they used to build the Ballymun flats).

I somehow doubt the money would have been enough.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

There were flying boats based on Lough Erin for that purpose. We let them fly directly to the coast instead of flying up around Donegal.

Flying from Mayo / Galway / Kerry would have been much more useful.

Dummy

Interesting topic and you touched on one area I am very interested in - the Lough Erne flying boats.

It was very widely reported in the Enniskillen area that it was one of the flying boats from the Erne that located the Bismark. I have never found documentation confirmng this report.

I have always believed that most german bombings in Ireland at this time were "accidental" but I have also believed that some were deliberate.

The very rural creamery at Lough Egish in Monaghan, which is about 25 - 30 miles from the Louth coast, was bombed and many locals claim that this was because the creamery was supplying foodstuff to the US camps 26 miles up the road in Fermanagh.

German intelligence was very strong in Ireland at this time. You can gauge how strong it was from Lord Haw Haw's broadcasts where he names individuals in Belfast asking them to vacate their homes as the local industrial works would soon be attacked. Their intelligence network was particularly strong in the 6 counties but the dropping of agents in the South was quite common especially is the planning stages of Operation Emerald.

Fratton Fred

Dummy wrote:

Interesting topic and you touched on one area I am very interested in - the Lough Erne flying boats.

It was very widely reported in the Enniskillen area that it was one of the flying boats from the Erne that located the Bismark. I have never found documentation confirmng this report.

May be of interest

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/65/a4358865.shtml

Dummy

Fred, thank you very much. I am delighted with this article.

I had heard this story many times over the years from locals in the Enniskillen area. But what is all the more interesting for me is that I actually knew of this man.


Thank you again.

D

Erin Go Brath

Just on the flying boats in Ireland; the yanks used Foynes Co. Limerick quite a lot during WW2. http://www.flyingboatmuseum.com/

Fratton Fred

I remember hearing that the pilot was actually an American training British crews, however because the US had not entered the war, he could not be credited with the sighting.

I'll try and find the article.

Capt'n Midnight

"Bismarck was sighted briefly through a gap in the clouds "
It was almost certainly picked up by radar rather than visually.

Shutuplaura

Yeah, point taken about Lough Erne. Still though, additional airbases on the south coast and the naval bases as Bearhaven and Lough Swilly would have been very handy. Incidentially, the base at Dunree In Lough Swilly is now a museum open to the public. Pretty interesting, but surprisingly small. Actually, Buncrana used to be an admirals base and had a very strong naval base until independance. Acording to an old fella I got talking to in a pub there one night the town remained a popular piss up destination for allied servicemen during the war and with British servicemen (on Sunday nights due to the more liberal liscencing laws) until the more recent troubles. Apparently the arrival of the yanks in particular forced a lot of local men to pull up their socks, comb their hair and treat their girlfriends better.

According to wikipedia anyway, the Bismark was first detected by radar by two heavy cruisers but managed to evade detection after the confusion of the battle of the Dennmark Strait. She was then re - spotted byt a Catalina which did indeed sortie from Lough Erne. Interesting stuff.

Seloth

In the 100 years of news Irish Examiner it states that the Pilot Was ment to be bobing Manchester,But there was extreme fog that night and he Bombed Dublin instead thinking it was the British city.Not long after Hitler sent a Message of appologises.

walrusgumble

Seloth wrote:

In the 100 years of news Irish Examiner it states that the Pilot Was ment to be bobing Manchester,But there was extreme fog that night and he Bombed Dublin instead thinking it was the British city.Not long after Hitler sent a Message of appologises.

i thought it was meant to be liverpool. either way i thought irish history recorded that incident to be a genuine accident. still tell that to the innocent dubliners who were killed.

Mick86

walrusgumble wrote:

i thought it was meant to be liverpool. either way i thought irish history recorded that incident to be a genuine accident. still tell that to the innocent dubliners who were killed.

All English cities were blacked out, Irish cities weren't. The fact that he could see Dublin should have indicated he wasn't over his intended target. The Irish government treated as an accident because to do otherwise would mean having to take action.

Seloth

walrusgumble wrote:

i thought it was meant to be liverpool.

It could have been I'm not sure.

I was reading up and Hitler actualy had plans to invade Ireland but only by invitation.Since the British planned on Invading us again during the war Hitler planned to send us weaponry and such to fight them so I don't think they would have Bombed us on Purpose.

ballsofire23

There was no need to have the Irish part of the plan. The irish were meaningless to the Germans. Absolutely no use. At all. I
I would have assuemd if he invaded Ireland, he would have gased you. Because the Irish would not have been classed as anything to continue.

Zebra3

Mick86 wrote:

All English cities were blacked out, Irish cities weren't. The fact that he could see Dublin should have indicated he wasn't over his intended target. The Irish government treated as an accident because to do otherwise would mean having to take action.

As posted above, I was always lead to believe that all Irish cities were blacked out as well, to avoid giving either side an idea of their whereabouts.

Aedh Baclamh

ballsofire23 wrote:

There was no need to have the Irish part of the plan. The irish were meaningless to the Germans. Absolutely no use. At all. I
I would have assuemd if he invaded Ireland, he would have gased you. Because the Irish would not have been classed as anything to continue.

Post of the year anyone?

Seloth

ballsofire23 wrote:

There was no need to have the Irish part of the plan. The irish were meaningless to the Germans. Absolutely no use. At all. I
I would have assuemd if he invaded Ireland, he would have gased you. Because the Irish would not have been classed as anything to continue.

You should real check things up before posting.

Read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Green_(Ireland)

TerrorFirmer

They found the Guerilla campaign the Irish had 'defeated' the British with quite fascinating. Although the British may have been bad during the War of Independance, I doubt warfare would have lasted long in Ireland, even of the guerilla type, given the unpreceedented brutalness of the Germans in retaliating to such attacks.

Erin Go Brath

ballsofire23 wrote:

I would have assuemd if he invaded Ireland, he would have gased you. Because the Irish would not have been classed as anything to continue.

Oh really! Dont know where your from Ballsofire23, just keep up the xenophobic comments, and see how far it gets you :rolleyes:

Zambia

I doubt the germans bombed dublin over a Few Fire Engines

Chances are it was a mistake, there would be no way of estabilishing for certain.

Nice to know the Ireland can be Bombed and a apology will suffice. Personnally I think even if De-Valera was informed off every aspect of Hitlers war he would not have joined in the war effort.

As for the return of the 6 counties for joining the war I could not see it happening but it would have at least given two sides of the island a shared enemy.

Victor

Erin Go Brath wrote:

Oh really! Dont know where your from Ballsofire23, just keep up the xenophobic comments, and see how far it gets you :rolleyes:

Um, the Nazis considered the Irish untermenschen.

Smushbush

we helped the british in northern ireland when the bombed it....maybe thats why?

Capt'n Midnight

Victor wrote:

Um, the Nazis considered the Irish untermenschen.

do tell..