[PR] They're on the way! New Intercity Railcars for National Network!

Metrobest

Sorry. It's Monday morning here. Need more coffee...:D

bk

Victor wrote:

Not quite, Aer Lingus has sub-varients (I'm not sure what the actual diferences are).

FYI A major selling point of Airbus is that almost all their aircraft use the same fly-by-wire cockpit and systems, greatly reducing the training required for pilots to operate different Airbus craft.

Once a pilot is trained in an Airbus, only minor training in the different handling of the different sized versions is required to qualify for each version.

Also the models Aer Lingus fly share at least 90% of their parts.

Capt'n Midnight

dowlingm wrote:

Victor - the EI fleet used to be Fokkers, Saabs, BAe 146s, Airbuses, Boeings

what about the Shorts "super stretched Skyvans" ?

Having said that you could train up drivers on simulators, people could do it at home on the old computer. They could even do it in Poland

popebenny16

John R wrote:

What is it with the P11 trainspotter obsession? You are like a bunch of gay-bashers trying desperately to repress their homosexuality.

We are actually failed trainspotters. I stood in Heuston last Sunday and only managed a few photos opf Seaguls. I am ashamed and abashed.

DerekP11

popebenny16 wrote:

We are actually failed trainspotters. I stood in Heuston last Sunday and only managed a few photos opf Seaguls. I am ashamed and abashed.

Get any good ones?:D

Red Alert

DerekP11 wrote:

should have seen the cutters torch years ago

Maybe instead of cutting up trains and fully functional locomotives, they might augment services. It is a bit 'irish' to claim they've not enough carriages when they were cutting up the Cravens - if it was a train or a Bus Eireann I'd take them over the bus option for speed.

I think the new trains should be 'blind tested' for noise by a selection of ordinary passengers.
(1) Towed by a locomotive
(2) on their own power
and see what people think.

EDIT: Do people also realise that in addition to the very loud traction engine these things will also have a constantly running generator engine? IE could just use DC and Inverters to get rid of this setup, but they made such a mess of the 201's/Enterprise that they insisted on such a setup for the 29000's amongst others.

Victor

bk wrote:

Also the models Aer Lingus fly share at least 90% of their parts.

So they only have about 100,000 unique parts each then.

Slice

Red Alert: Do people also realise that in addition to the very loud traction engine these things will also have a constantly running generator engine? IE could just use DC and Inverters to get rid of this setup, but they made such a mess of the 201's/Enterprise that they insisted on such a setup for the 29000's amongst others.

If only Toyota's Prius came in train form as well as hatchback

DerekP11

Red Alert wrote:

Maybe instead of cutting up trains and fully functional locomotives, they might augment services. It is a bit 'irish' to claim they've not enough carriages when they were cutting up the Cravens - if it was a train or a Bus Eireann I'd take them over the bus option for speed.

I think the new trains should be 'blind tested' for noise by a selection of ordinary passengers.
(1) Towed by a locomotive
(2) on their own power
and see what people think.

EDIT: Do people also realise that in addition to the very loud traction engine these things will also have a constantly running generator engine? IE could just use DC and Inverters to get rid of this setup, but they made such a mess of the 201's/Enterprise that they insisted on such a setup for the 29000's amongst others.

Firstly, the Cravens had the most unreliable heating and lighting system across the network. They were infamous from Kerry to Mayo for this very reason. They are old fashioned and look awful. The toilets were prehistoric and being able to see the track pass beneath you as you make your way from coach to coach was bordering on rediculous. They no longer have any place on a railway that is striving to reach the latter half of the 20th century, let alone the 21st.

As for your "test" for the new DMUs, I think it reflects the opinion of someone who just doesn't like a train that isn't "loco" hauled. Ring a bell?

KC61

DerekP11 wrote:

Firstly, the Cravens had the most unreliable heating and lighting system across the network. They were infamous from Kerry to Mayo for this very reason. They are old fashioned and look awful. The toilets were prehistoric and being able to see the track pass beneath you as you make your way from coach to coach was bordering on rediculous. They no longer have any place on a railway that is striving to reach the latter half of the 20th century, let alone the 21st.

As for your "test" for the new DMUs, I think it reflects the opinion of someone who just doesn't like a train that isn't "loco" hauled. Ring a bell?

I think that we do have to be realistic and accept that Cravens have done their bit for Irish railways but they are now well beyond their sell-by date.

The future for passenger transport in Ireland is undoubtedly DMU and I think the sooner we all accept that the better! Hopefully these units will do what they say on the label!

Slice

Any more pics of those DMUs or models in use on other networks?

Red Alert

I'm not seriously suggesting that the Craven's be retained, nor for that matter most of the Mark 2's in general passenger service.

Why does the future necessiarly have to be DMU? I've no religious belief against DMU's. In fact I follow a lot of UK sites advocating DMU preservation. I know from experience that in general a loco-hauled train beats a DMU hands down on comfort and noise. The Mk3 Push Pulls and more importantly the Enterprise and Mk4 show that push pull is a viable and efficient method of operation. Car comfort is much higher and noise, vibrations etc are considerably reduced.

In our case we could get better value for money by using already-existing 071 and 201 class locomotives. The power-car concept could be tried on the Mk4's (which i believe is a good idea - the HST does it). When the 071's are past it, that would release more 201's for push-pull duty and the DVT's on the Mk4's could be put on the Enterprise to solve the power issue (they're apparently compatible).

Interior refits of existing stock is another option that should be tried - but carefully chosen (like on the Mk3's and the Mk3 Internationals). Would a repainted and refitted Mark 3 pass as a good thing to travel in? I think so.

The issue I have with this particular order is that we are trying to tackle at least two issues with unseen and unproved technology in Ireland:

DMU as Intercity Irish Rail is already trying to force this issue and has been by putting DMU's on routes such as Sligo, I believe it is done to 'soften up' people to the idea of a DMU. Realistically now there is no going back, and I think Irish Rail must have known this when they signed the contract.

Fleet Composition Although the advantages of a unified fleet can be seen, there is an economic / waste of money issue here. Presumably stock should be replaced only when its ablity to do its job to current requirements is no longer there.

In terms of buses, since the 1960's, the buses have been more or less the same. All diesel, get on at the front, engine at the back. London Buses took the issue very seriously of finding a front-door bus and did loads and loads of trials. Any bus that was considered was brought through extensive testing including overhauls, breakdowns, emergency situations. This brought lots of interesting vehicles at times - the front engined Volvo Ailsa and the precursor to the Toyota Prius - the Volvo Flygmotor Cumulo and many more. The brief in all cases was to test their 'suitability for London'. No more, no less. The change suggested by DMU introduction is more akin to the difference between a trolleybus to a bus than the difference between a Bombardier and a Volvo Olympian.

I think Irish Rail should have adopted a similar strategy. At the very worst we'd end up with six unusable cars. Probably we'd find a few niggles that can be resolved in co-operation with the manufacturer. At the best we'd find nothing wrong at all and could happily order more of them. Is this a totally unreasonable assumption?

dowlingm

the difference being that buses don't have to be regauged to be given out on appro - even LH drive is not as bad an issue given many countries outside UK/IE drive on left but does anyone else use IE gauge?

Victor

I'm agnosic on DMUs. Locos and DMUs each have their advantages. I suspect DMU would have a lower rate of complete failures, which seem to have been a problem over the last few years.

Red Alert wrote:

I'm not seriously suggesting that the Craven's be retained, nor for that matter most of the Mark 2's in general passenger service.

I don't object to keeping the fleet as large as practicable to move as many people as possible, especially in suburban service.

Red Alert wrote:

Fleet Composition Although the advantages of a unified fleet can be seen, there is an economic / waste of money issue here. Presumably stock should be replaced only when its ablity to do its job to current requirements is no longer there.

You strike a balance. If you have a fleet of luxurious gold plated trains that keep breaking down, it may be better to just buy a basic fleet that works and isn't a constant maintenance overhead.

I think Irish Rail should have adopted a similar strategy. At the very worst we'd end up with six unusable cars. Probably we'd find a few niggles that can be resolved in co-operation with the manufacturer. At the best we'd find nothing wrong at all and could happily order more of them. Is this a totally unreasonable assumption?

This can add years to your programme for introducing / replacing a fleet.

Yoda

Any chance the new cars will have laptop power points?

MarkoP11

Every single first class coach on all rail services within Ireland have power sockets, its not just the new trains, even Mk3's have them under the tables. New Cork train there is a socket behind seats 5/6 in all standard class coaches

I've seen leaked interior photos of the new Intercity Railcars but you can't see under the tables in those. The mock up in Heuston had them, first class has them certainly. If they are present it is likely only one coach within each railcar set will be fitted

Given the problems with the rail service in Ireland it fairly low on the list of things to get, might want the train to run on time first and get a seat

bk

MarkoP11 wrote:

Given the problems with the rail service in Ireland it fairly low on the list of things to get, might want the train to run on time first and get a seat

It may not be a priority, but it is certainly short sighted not to have power points in every seat.

Increasingly IR will be competing with the new motorways being built. One of the major selling points of IR is that you can work on the train or relax and watch a movie, etc. Not having the simple advantage of power points at every seat diminishes this advantage.

We are not looking for some fancy back of the seat video on demand system that some long haul airlines have, just a bit of juice for our laptops, portable DVD players, etc.

Yoda

On the Westport line one can never count on there being a "posh car" (which is what we call the occasional First-class car that gets put on).

Powerpoints at every seat would be a real pleasure.