All the Motorways are built in Dublin

mad man

BK Merlante got there before me but I'll post anyway.

The problem for Waterford is pretty much as you illustrated. Your interpretation of the core population not being large enough is wrong but it is easy to understand how you would think it.The Irish interpretation for an Urban area is the same as the EU one.Where an urban area ends when the outer settlements (as in buildings) have exceeded a distance of 200m between them.Galway in particular has benefitted from this definition more than any other city in Ireland.Ribbon development is probably more prevalent in Galway than any other city.Waterfords nearest large town is Tramore which has a population of 10000 within seven miles the city centre.There are less than 3 miles of rural areas between them.There are half a dozen towns and villages on the outskirts of the City (within 3 miles) which like Tramore are a hairs breadth away from being included in the urban area.I take your point about the other cities having sattelite towns.However Waterford has Wexford,Clonmel and Kilkenny within 30 miles of it.It has been recognised that Limerick and Galway are not surrounded by large towns in the same way.These towns are among the largest in the country,

When Tescos were compiling geographic information for potential new stores in Waterford in 1999 it found that there was 90000 people within a 10 minute drive of the City centre.As I said in my earlier post Waterfords problem is exacerbated by the fact that it's greater population (the South Easts core population) is effectively bordering on 4 counties.South Tipp,Wexford,South KIlkenny and South West Wexford.This is Waterfords effective Metropolitan area and the fact that it is has the borders of four counties and includes up to six administrative areas comlpicates things no end.I think the most significant thing is the region has a higher population than both the West(Galway) and Mid West (Limerick) regions and that the core of the population (approx 100000) is in Waterford or its imediate vicinity.

The birth rate in the South East is very high and the population is young.I just checked the 2002 figures and the age profile is consistent with the other cities and regions.The remarkable thing about Galway is that the number of people in the 20-24 age group is 20000.This is approx four times greater than Limerick and Waterford and equal to Cork and is consistent with a large student population.Therefore Galways natural population is probably more inline with that of Waterford.The low level of third level attendance is probably the main factor that has depressed the region and that is why Waterford is campaigning hard for the University.However another factor is the serious lack of transport infrastructure investment by successive governments over the years.You will find duel carriageways and motorways approaching smaller towns such asAthlone, Letterkenny,Sligo and Between Newbridge and Naas among other places.This is largely caused by two things,Parish pump politics and a false perception that the region is one of the wealthier ones.Those days are long gone and we are now comparable to the BMW region.If this wasn't bad enough we are lumped into the Southern and Eastern region (EU designation) where we cannnot avail of the full EU and governmeent grants to attract industry.Galway on the other hand is a wealthy place lumped in with the BMW region which can avail of the full grants.

By 2010 almost all of our infrastructure should be met and be comparable to Cork,Limerick and Galway.This will allow us to concentrate on the University issue if the ball is not rolling already.We will need to focus political efforts which is another difficulty due to the Border issues I mentioned but there are signs that the tide is starting to turn there too,However we also have to make peope aware in a country that seems to be Dublin/Cork focused that the SE is equal in merit to the other regions and the best way to utilise its potential is to not siphon it off to Cork.I have enjoyed the debate as well.I hope there has been a bit more awareness of our cause and that it is not just some parish pump fantasy.There is really no other coice for the South East other than a failed economic region.

Bards

Merlante & Mad Man.. many thanks for summing up what I was trying to get accross.. your efforts have been much appreciated

Zoney

mad man wrote:

As I said in my earlier post Waterfords problem is exacerbated by the fact that it's greater population (the South Easts core population) is effectively bordering on 4 counties.South Tipp,Wexford,South KIlkenny and South West Wexford.This is Waterfords effective Metropolitan area and the fact that it is has the borders of four counties and includes up to six administrative areas comlpicates things no end.

Limerick suffers greatly from this too. In its case, the majority of the city's population is outside the city boundary now!! With a boundary extension like Galways, it would be by far and away the third largest city in the Republic.

Also in a similar way to Waterford, the urban area is split across three council areas. Although the major suburbs are in Limerick County (Raheen, Castletroy, new parts of Caherdavin), there are parts in County Clare too, like Shannon Banks. It's quite simply absurd that the city limits aren't extended to the edge of Raheen, Castletroy, Caherdavin and Corbally, nevermind that in a sane country they would be even further out (like Galway's) for future expansion.

Limerick City council is ill-equipped (i.e. funded) to do anything for the city - what they have presided over (e.g. refurb of Bedford Row, Thomas St., Riverfront and Henry St.) is only miraculous.

EDIT: Some of the few reasons Limerick isn't a complete basket case are Shannon Airport, the University (even back to NIHE days) and (historically at least) Shannon Development. It'll go back to being one if the current laissez-faire attitude prevails if/when Dell moves on, or Shannon Airport doesn't hold on to/increase its links. Neither of the latter two items are really factors that can be interfered with, but should be planned for and measures arranged to ensure (respectively) the attraction of new industry and alternative transport links. That's hard work (especially with the old way of chucking money at people being a no go) and I don't think any of our politicians are intending to do it.

bk

mad man wrote:

As I said in my earlier post Waterfords problem is exacerbated by the fact that it's greater population (the South Easts core population) is effectively bordering on 4 counties.South Tipp,Wexford,South KIlkenny and South West Wexford.This is Waterfords effective Metropolitan area and the fact that it is has the borders of four counties and includes up to six administrative areas comlpicates things no end.I think the most significant thing is the region has a higher population than both the West(Galway) and Mid West (Limerick) regions and that the core of the population (approx 100000) is in Waterford or its imediate vicinity.

I'm glad you brought that up, because after posting yesterday, I thought of that very point. The second major problem Waterford has after the University problem, is that it's extended population is divided up between 4 different counties and 6 different administrative centres.

That complicates things greatly I'd imagine, comparing that to Limerick, Galway and Cork, all of whom most of their extended populations fall within one county and therefore at most 2 administrative authorities (and in my experience in Cork the city and county councils work very closely together), probably makes things far, far easier.

For instance in Cork this leads to the city and county council developing an excellent spatial strategy with investment, infrastructure and planning permission being focused on Cork City and a small number of commuter towns linked to the city via good roads and commuter rail services.

I'd imagine that this would be much harder to achieve in the SE region, because of squabbling between the various councils. And this quote actually seems to be a reflection of this:

1. For various reasons a lot of people who would have lived in the city, live in Tramore now, 8 miles away. Maybe it's the sea air. In any case, Tramore has been growing at 15-25% per census period, and is now around 10,000. It is unusual to have a dormitary town that is 20% of the size of the city, but that's what we have and it is not acknowledged as existing. Because of this Waterford is thought to be growing very slowly with regard to other cities.

Instead of focusing all the development resources and infrastructure on Waterford city and growing it's core mass, you end up with a situation where the resources are being more widely spread and therefore less effective.

Actually thinking about it, the best thing that the region could do would be to merge it's 6 county councils into just one or two, so that planning could be carried out more effectively and the region would look less dispersed to an outsider.

bk

Andrew Duffy wrote:

It's widely rumoured that Liam Carroll tempted Google to choose his Gasworks development with a highly favourable lease, undercutting Treasury Holdings' still-empty Shelbourne Park development 200 metres down the road. Since most of Google's operation here is selling adwords and not anything technical, I imagine that that is why a building in Dublin was chosen rather than one in Cork or Limerick.

Yes, I'm aware of that, however even heavily reduced rates in that area of Dublin would still be far more expensive then pretty much anywhere in Cork.

I think the reasons Google didn't pick Cork are two fold:

1) No existing empty building big enough to take them (thus the need to develop the port area).

2) The close proximity of the Gasworks to the IFSC, thus the ability to easily head hunt experienced staff from other companies.

pjbrady1

Google picked Dublin as it needs a wide range of highly skilled multi language workers. Dublin is the only option for such a large company to find the necessary volume of workers. Very few Irish people are fluent in a second language. A requirement for alot of Google jobs. Alot of Google staff are from Continental Europe and India.

Bards

bk wrote:

I'm glad you brought that up, because after posting yesterday, I thought of that very point. The second major problem Waterford has after the University problem, is that it's extended population is divided up between 4 different counties and 6 different administrative centres.

not to mention two provinces, Munster & Leinster

mysterious

mad man wrote:

It has been recognised that Limerick and Galway are not surrounded by large towns in the same way.These towns are among the largest in the country,

Who says this... A Waterford man, Likely. Do take time to look at a map of Ireland.

mad man wrote:

As I said in my earlier post Waterfords problem is exacerbated by the fact that it's greater population (the South Easts core population) is effectively bordering on 4 counties.South Tipp,Wexford,South KIlkenny and South West Wexford.This is Waterford's effective Metropolitan area and the fact that it is has the borders of four counties and includes up to six administrative areas comlpicates things no end.I think the most significant thing is the region has a higher population than both the West(Galway) and Mid West (Limerick) regions and that the core of the population (approx 100000) is in Waterford or its immediate vicinity.

Well I take it that much of the city is in Waterford considering it's bigger than Cork and Limerick boundary combined. And is almost the same size as Dublin's..:D Your figures is vastly exaggerated.

mad man wrote:

The birth rate in the South East is very high and the population is young.I just checked the 2002 figures and the age profile is consistent with the other cities and regions.The remarkable thing about Galway is that the number of people in the 20-24 age group is 20000.This is approx four times greater than Limerick and Waterford and equal to Cork and is consistent with a large student population.Therefore Galways natural population is probably more inline with that of Waterford.

I would like to see these figures... Considering Waterfords Agg. area population growth was less than any of cities between 2002 to 2006.

1huge1

Well to be fair mad man has a point of limerick city not being surrounded by any big towns
according to wikipedia the top 100 towns in ireland (population) theres only limerick city and newcastlewest which barely even made the top 100

galway has oranmore and the likes
but you could also use towns like shannon which is a commuter town of limerick

mad man

mysterious wrote:

Who says this... A Waterford man, Likely. Do take time to look at a map of Ireland.



Well I take it that much of the city is in Waterford considering it's bigger than Cork and Limerick boundary combined. And is almost the same size as Dublin's..:D Your figures is vastly exaggerated.




I would like to see these figures... Considering Waterfords Agg. area population growth was less than any of cities between 2002 to 2006.

Yes I am a Waterford man and maybe you can reciprocate the courtesy by telling us all where you are from.

My figures are not vastly exaggerated.I have sourced my figures from the 2002 census and 2006 census provisional report,the IDA website and the ordnance survey.If any of them are exagerated then prove it.They are after all open to scrutiny.

Much of the city is in the Boundary but much of it isn't.However that is not the thrust of the arguement.The arguement is that Waterford is a moderately smaller City than Limerick or Galway.The cities by themselves are not identified as growth centres by their merit alone.It is because the are the urban centres of a region.Waterford is the urban centre of the SE region.a region significantly more populated than the Mid West and West.This statistic alone merits the SE for the same facilities as the other regions.

As for the Boundary I find it hard to believe what your saying is true although I will not deny it outright.The fact is the City is located on the Northern half of the Boundary and overspilling into the neighbouring county which is Kilkenny.This is the natural progression of the City.A similar Situation is developing on the Eastern end of the boundary.
The areas imediately adjacent to the boundary have combined poulations equal to the city.That is before you even get to the towns like Tramore,Portlaw,Carrick and New Ross.Most of whose poulations fall between 5000-10000.Not to mention an array of villages.

BTW I have checked a map of Ireland as you have suggested and there is nothing there to undrmine my arguement as you are implying. Waterford is surrounded by three large towns (approx 20000) that are approx 30 miles away.These are Wexford,Clonmel and Kilkenny.The nearest towns of this scale to Galway is Athlone at 54miles and Sligo at 83 miles.If you include Athlone you have to inlude Carlow with Waterford .Sligo is the same distance from Galway as Waterford is to Cork so it is ridiculous to include it.

Limerick has one large town of approximately 2000 and shannon approx 10000 (Thanks 1huge1 for providing the link)

You are incorrect BTW (just checked) around your statement about the size of Waterford Boundary being larger than Cork and Limerick combined and equal to Dublin.It is marginally larger than Cork.Limerick (which has a surprisingly small boundary) the same issue as Waterford but its border issue has not caused the same level of unbalance growth around the City centre.

Census 2006 has showed Cork city and Limerick City to have fallen(I do not not put much significance in this,I just want to illustrate something).Waterford grew marginally.What was significant about that census was that the highest population growth rate in Ireland was in these three counties but it was not focused in the cities or strictly rural areas but in the environs and satellite towns.This is the type of growth that has been occuring in Waterford for the last 15 years.It also shows that the administrative system we have based on the traditional counties needs reform and should only be releveant to the GAA.I WON'T HOLD MY BREATH ON THIS THOUGH.

So Mysterious perhaps if you could substantiate your refuting arguement with some evidence other than a Big Grin icon we can get back to the serious discussion.

If you have trouble navigating the IDA and CSO websites I will send you links;)

mad man

bk wrote:

I'm glad you brought that up, because after posting yesterday, I thought of that very point. The second major problem Waterford has after the University problem, is that it's extended population is divided up between 4 different counties and 6 different administrative centres.

That complicates things greatly I'd imagine, comparing that to Limerick, Galway and Cork, all of whom most of their extended populations fall within one county and therefore at most 2 administrative authorities (and in my experience in Cork the city and county councils work very closely together), probably makes things far, far easier.

For instance in Cork this leads to the city and county council developing an excellent spatial strategy with investment, infrastructure and planning permission being focused on Cork City and a small number of commuter towns linked to the city via good roads and commuter rail services.

I'd imagine that this would be much harder to achieve in the SE region, because of squabbling between the various councils. And this quote actually seems to be a reflection of this:



Instead of focusing all the development resources and infrastructure on Waterford city and growing it's core mass, you end up with a situation where the resources are being more widely spread and therefore less effective.

Actually thinking about it, the best thing that the region could do would be to merge it's 6 county councils into just one or two, so that planning could be carried out more effectively and the region would look less dispersed to an outsider.

These are good ideas but there is too much emotion involved around county loyalties.Waterford City extended the boundary into the County in 1980 and the Co.Co agreed without much fuss.They are attempting to do a similar thing now in the North of the City (Soth Kilkenny) and the controversy in Kilkenny is huge.It is quite comical and Farcical the reaction from Waterfords point of view but its deeadly serious to Kilkenny people.

I'm sure you being a Cork man would fully support us on this:D

jd

While Waterford should have been developed into a city, it would be naive not to recognise that (for example) northern and eastern Wexford, and Central and Northern Carlow look towards, and come under the influence of, Dublin City, rather than Waterford.

I suppose the question really is whether it is too late to develop 3 or 4 other centres as proper cities with the infrastructure that involves.

mike65

Should? It is!

Mike.

jd

mike65 wrote:

Should? It is!

Mike.

You know what I mean, Mike.

mad man

jd wrote:

While Waterford should have been developed into a city, it would be naive not to recognise that (for example) northern and eastern Wexford, and Central and Northern Carlow look towards, and come under the influence of, Dublin City, rather than Waterford.

I suppose the question really is whether it is too late to develop 3 or 4 other centres as proper cities with the infrastructure that involves.

That is a fair point.But the fact remains these are on the periphery of the region.Carlow is midpoint between Dublin and Waterford.This would not be the case for most of the region though.However the whole point of spatial development is to Develop a strong region that does not need to look towards Dublin.I would gamble though that (and this is only based on my own experiences) Carlow and North Wexford have a much stronger interaction with Waterford than you might think although you would need data to determine this.

The thing about Dublin is though it has grown so disproportionally to the rest of the Country that you could almost take any anwhere and say it interacts with Dublin more than Anywhere else.The Multinational I work for in Dublin has a huge amount of people from the regions who travel up and down on their days off.Probably Cork more than anywhere else.The other issue is that there are significant size population centres within a short ditance of Waterford that have the same relationship as a suburb like New Ross,Tramore,and Carrick.This areas should be collectively looked at as the Gateway to the South East This is recognised in Limerick if you look at the IDA and SS website which refers to the Mid West Gateway as Limerick/Shannon

merlante

Just a few points.

Regarding Waterford's boundary being larger than Cork's. I believe it is currently considered desirable (can't remember where I read this, but it makes sense) for the cities of Limerick, Galway and Waterford to be completely enclosed by their boundary, but not Dublin and Cork, probably because they have enough scale that it doesn't really matter, or that the Co.Co.s and city co. are not at odds with one another.

Anyway, Galway's boundary is bigger than Waterford's, and it covers the whole city. Waterford's boundary, though still larger than Cork's, does not. This is because while we have vast acres of space on the south side that we won't need for years, we have virtually nothing on the north side. If we could trade the extra land on the south for land on the north, we would. But the fact is we can't. Although we do have a boundary extension in the works, which is being fought tooth and nail by our friendly neighbours, Kilkenny. I know the problem is much worse in Limerick.

The other point is that by 2010, the rest of the region will find that the roads and access to Waterford will be of the quality of those to Dublin. All things being equal, they will prefer to go to Waterford for services because it will be much easier to drive into. I believe that once the WIT is upgraded to a university, we will be able to attract employment on a par with elsewhere, and Waterford will become more important relative to Dublin within the region.

Things that are currently on stream in Waterford, is the M9 motorway, the city bypass and the outer ring road (which is finished). This will also give unprecedented access to Waterford Airport, which is expanding rapidly at the moment.

And on the towns issue, of Limerick, Galway and Waterford, only Waterford has a town of 10,000 people within 7 miles, two towns of around 6,000 people and a number of villages within 15 miles, and also some of the largest (non-city) towns in the country within the region. These facts are no less true because I am a Waterford man. When you talk about critical mass, you certainly have it in Waterford. It is our job to get this recognised.

Hotblack Desiato

merlante wrote:

When you talk about critical mass, you certainly have it in Waterford. It is our job to get this recognised.

The point isn't whether Town X or City Y is big enough or not. The point is that the country can only sustain perhaps three of these growth centres, if they are to work. If we have too many, and the spatial strategy had way too many, the whole plan is doomed and Dublin will continue to gobble up everything in its path. There will be winners and losers and saying that 'City Z got it and we're nearly as big as they are, so why not us' is all very well - we're a small country and can't develop everywhere that has the potential.

merlante

ninja900 wrote:

The point isn't whether Town X or City Y is big enough or not. The point is that the country can only sustain perhaps three of these growth centres, if they are to work. If we have too many, and the spatial strategy had way too many, the whole plan is doomed and Dublin will continue to gobble up everything in its path. There will be winners and losers and saying that 'City Z got it and we're nearly as big as they are, so why not us' is all very well - we're a small country and can't develop everywhere that has the potential.

For me there are a number of flaws, or if not flaws, assumptions, in this argument.

Firstly, why 3 centres? Why not 5: as in 4 outside Dublin, which correspond to the four regional cities? What analysis have you to back up the number 3?

Also, I don't see how Dublin will 'gobble up everything in its path' when people can receive education and employment in the regional cities. Most people in Waterford and the surrounding area only go to Dublin once or twice a year, and really, it might as well be a different country. There is no sense that the entire populace is about to up and leave. All that is needed is a university, and high quality jobs. This is the case already in Galway and Limerick, it just has to happen to a much greater degree in Waterford. (And the cost of making this happen is not large.) The regional cities are increasing their share of the national population quicker than Dublin as it is.

I don't see why there has to be winners and losers when there are only 4 centres of any kind of scale outside of Dublin. Particularly when those four centres underpin large swathes of the country and are geographically well spread. The next tier of towns, which are (with the exception of Dundalk and some GDA towns) at most 40% of the size of Waterford, might well feel that they are losers, but realistically, there *are* a lot smaller, and there can be no feeling of discrimination there.

In addition, there are negative consequences for, for example, focusing job creation, education, etc., in Cork, Limerick and Galway, and leaving Waterford fall by the wayside. Aside from ending up with a bitter, unemployment ridden, decaying factory town, in the south east, the entire region will suffer. That's 14% of the population. You will set up negative migration patterns from the south east, to Dublin, the south and the mid-west. In an attempt merely to counteract Dublin, Ireland would become spatially lobsided outside of Dublin. Currently, Ireland is reasonably spatially balanced outside of Dublin, in that each region has its natural capital, and they are geographically well spread. In any case, it would unconscionable, in my view, to let any city that is currently performing well, and could perform a lot better with minimal investment, rot, just for the sake of counteracting Dublin at any cost.

Another issue is that if you are going to choose 3 centres outside Dublin, for example, then I wouldn't expect Waterford to be omitted just because it currently has a marginally smaller population than Galway, for example. Waterford was larger than Galway when I was a kid, and things could change back just as quickly. As I said in a previous post, Waterford is the closest city and port to mainland Europe. Proper spatial planning would see much of the traffic from Dublin's permanently congested port transfer to Waterford, to the advantage of all parties. Although the celtic tiger took a few years longer to reach Waterford, once the infrastructure being built comes on stream, the WIT is upgraded to a university, and the port receives proper national investment, Waterford should be one of the most important cities in the country. In terms of a national strategy, developing Waterford makes sense. Arguments that portray Waterford as the poor relation of Irish cities focus only on what has occurred (or what has not occurred) in the past 15 years.

In any case, I think the whole idea of 3 centres versus Dublin is moot anyway, because with the sort of infrastructure that is coming on stream in Ireland, we are very quickly becoming, for all economic purposes, a city state. And that city is Ireland. Already there is no disadvantage for people to live in Galway or Cork rather than Dublin. There are plenty of jobs and educational prospects in these locations. In the future there will also be no disadvantage for companies setting up in these locations either, because travel times will be much less, and cities much better connected. The labour market will also become more fluid. The government can promise a company excellent infrastructure and top notch facilities, and it will not matter to the company where it is send: whereas it still matters at this point, because not all parts of Ireland were created equal. Rather than a country of regions and small cities and towns, Ireland will effectively be a city state with distributed campuses. I think, in this scenario, there is no particular reason why people will move to Dublin, and pressures for housing and so on will see an outward trickle from Dublin towards cities with a better quality of life. At least this is the way I see things going.

fly_agaric

merlante wrote:

Proper spatial planning would see much of the traffic from Dublin's permanently congested port transfer to Waterford, to the advantage of all parties.

Just wondering - how so? I assume most of that stuff (how much??) is going to consumers/businesses lying within the GDA - so how does trucking it back up there from Waterford port help anyone?
I'd say the environment wouldn't feel like an advantaged party!:D

mad man

ninja900 wrote:

The point isn't whether Town X or City Y is big enough or not. The point is that the country can only sustain perhaps three of these growth centres, if they are to work. If we have too many, and the spatial strategy had way too many, the whole plan is doomed and Dublin will continue to gobble up everything in its path. There will be winners and losers and saying that 'City Z got it and we're nearly as big as they are, so why not us' is all very well - we're a small country and can't develop everywhere that has the potential.

Why not?If the region has the potential then it should be developed.As it is the South East has that strategic potential more than the west.Where is the Data that says the country can only support three centres of excellence?

Concentrating on three centres may also lead to a spectacular failure.People have a natural inclination to stay where their roots are.The lack of third level education and employment facilites in the South East has has only lead to higher than average unemloyment and lower than average tertiary qualifications in the South East.Just because the Government will lead with a certain strategy does not mean the people will follow.

As it is the state is supporting two centres more than any other.That is Cork and Galway.Although the population is rising in these regions it is also rising faster in the SE.The result of the current government policy is the Brain Drain of one most populated regions in the country.

However the policy for the last twenty years at least is sustaining regions that have been historically difficult to sustain like the west at the expense of a much more sustainable region like the South East.The state has been robbing Peter to pay Paul.This strategy is not utilising our population effectively.It has resulted in a West that is booming economically and a South East that is holding its head above Water.

merlante

fly_agaric wrote:

Just wondering - how so? I assume most of that stuff (how much??) is going to consumers/businesses lying within the GDA - so how does trucking it back up there from Waterford port help anyone?
I'd say the environment wouldn't feel like an advantaged party!:D

It would take hours off all sea journeys from Europe. Then, from Waterford, which is connected to the rail network, goods can be transferred either to Cork/Limerick or Dublin (or Galway via Kildare). I'd say the environment would prefer the quantity of fuel being burned to push a train for 2hr 45mins to the quantity of fuel being burned to displace tons of sea water in order to push a ship through the sea for a lot longer.

It is more efficient for ships to dock at the closest port. Particularly when that closest port is the most modern in the country, has plenty of excess capacity, and Dublin port is permanently full and requires an extremely costly upgrade to increase capacity. I think, leaving parochial matters aside (i.e. Dublin pride ), it would be in the tax payers' best interests to make far better use of Waterford port.

mad man

fly_agaric wrote:

Just wondering - how so? I assume most of that stuff (how much??) is going to consumers/businesses lying within the GDA - so how does trucking it back up there from Waterford port help anyone?
I'd say the environment wouldn't feel like an advantaged party!:D

Because most imported goods for the SE comes through Dublin or Cork.For example no Wet goods come through the port despite it being one of the largest in the country.Like everything else the port is under utilised.Although in this case it is probably our fault due to a dock strike that lasted 13 years in Waterford.People were less savvy then and did not realise in the absence of one port business would just go through another and lo and behold the neighbouring ports New Ross particular took off.Waterford got quite militant back in the late 70's and early 80's.Although people now realise the folly of those days.

fly_agaric

merlante wrote:

It would take hours off all sea journeys from Europe. Then, from Waterford, which is connected to the rail network, goods can be transferred either to Cork/Limerick or Dublin (or Galway via Kildare). I'd say the environment would prefer the quantity of fuel being burned to push a train for 2hr 45mins to the quantity of fuel being burned to displace tons of sea water in order to push a ship through the sea for a lot longer.

In my ignorance I didn't know Waterford was connected by rail to Dublin and Cork.

merlante wrote:

I think, leaving parochial matters aside (i.e. Dublin pride ), it would be in the tax payers' best interests to make far better use of Waterford port.

I have very little pride in Dublin tbh and couldn't give a crap about its port really. I'd certainly have alot less local pride than the Waterford/SE posters on this thread have exhibited.:D

mad man wrote:

a dock strike that lasted 13 years

:eek:

merlante

fly_agaric wrote:

I have very little pride in Dublin tbh and couldn't give a crap about its port really. I'd certainly have alot less local pride than the Waterford/SE posters on this thread have exhibited.:D

Pride? Analysis only.

sceptre

corktina wrote:

surely you dont go through Charleville still do you?

Theres a fine bypass if you know where it is.....:)

I wouldn't say it's a "fine bypass", just moderately better then going through the town when traffic is heavy. When traffic isn't heavy it isn't worth the bother.

mike65

Charleville does not have a bypass! Unless its underground.

In my ignorance I didn't know Waterford was connected by rail to Dublin and Cork.

Not quite sure to say to this! Except that the Cork line is via Tipp! :eek:

Mike.

Chris_533976

Ironically the potholes in the middle of the town are so bad you might end up underground without taking a bypass

mike65

If they just cleared the parked cars from each side of the main street they could do a resurface without much trouble.

Mike.

bk

merlante wrote:

It would take hours off all sea journeys from Europe. Then, from Waterford, which is connected to the rail network, goods can be transferred either to Cork/Limerick or Dublin (or Galway via Kildare). I'd say the environment would prefer the quantity of fuel being burned to push a train for 2hr 45mins to the quantity of fuel being burned to displace tons of sea water in order to push a ship through the sea for a lot longer.

As has been discussed often in this forum, rail freight is dead in Ireland and is unlikely to ever be resurrected again. The reality Ireland is small and it is cheaper, easier and quicker to transport most freight (everything except heavy freight like iron ore, coal, etc) by truck.

merlante wrote:

It is more efficient for ships to dock at the closest port. Particularly when that closest port is the most modern in the country, has plenty of excess capacity, and Dublin port is permanently full and requires an extremely costly upgrade to increase capacity. I think, leaving parochial matters aside (i.e. Dublin pride ), it would be in the tax payers' best interests to make far better use of Waterford port.

Actually most people in Dublin want the port moved out of Dublin city and up by Balbriggan. The port is going to be turned into a Manhattan style, high rise down town.

merlante

bk wrote:

As has been discussed often in this forum, rail freight is dead in Ireland and is unlikely to ever be resurrected again. The reality Ireland is small and it is cheaper, easier and quicker to transport most freight (everything except heavy freight like iron ore, coal, etc) by truck.

Rail freight is happening at the moment. In any case, rail freight is cheaper than shipping goods from Europe another 100 miles. Personally, I'd rather keep that crap off the roads, even if it is more expensive. The government need to get serious about rail freight -- might cut down on their precious road death figure!

bk wrote:

Actually most people in Dublin want the port moved out of Dublin city and up by Balbriggan. The port is going to be turned into a Manhattan style, high rise down town.

I love the way every time something is built in Dublin there is a comparison to London or New York.

The port is already a good bit out of town anyway, I would have thought.

Is the 'manhattan-style' U2 tower going up yet?