All the Motorways are built in Dublin

D'Peoples Voice

This is an accusation that is often levied against Dublin by our country cousins,
how many of them are actually aware of how untrue this is!

According to the NRA, The country with the greatest amount of motorway within it's borders is Kildare
http://www.nra.ie/Transportation/DownloadableDocumentation/file,2184,en.pdf

Kildare 76.440 Kilometers

Whereas in Dublin the total 75.723

Fingal 39.152 kilometers

Dun Laoighaire/Rathdown 18.184 kilometers

South Dublin 15.409 kilometers

Dublin city 2.978 kilometers

Louth has 40.088 kilometers
Meath has 28.101 kilometers or just over one thid of that of Kildare!

If they going to upgrade the N9 to motorway standard, Kildare can add another 37.822 kilometers to their total!

mike65

Kildare is Dublin these days! Think "The Pale" and the accusastion holds true, not that I was especially aware people in the sticks were grumbling about this particular notion.

Mike.

Chris_533976

Out of date Fermoy bypass is M8.

cornbb

mike65 wrote:

Kildare is Dublin these days! Think "The Pale" and the accusastion holds true, not that I was especially aware people in the sticks were grumbling about this particular notion.

Mike.

Exactly. Who do you think uses all these motorways in Kildare, Meath, Louth etc? People going to and from Dublin!

Zoney

I think it's fairly valid to complain about having a goat track for a significant amount of the N20 (Limerick - Cork) with nothing to be done about it until 2012 at the earliest.

From the end of the Croom bypass, to north of Mallow, excluding a small bit south of Charleville, the road is narrow two lane country road with bad twists and bends.

Now I know some other major routes are like this - the N9 is mostly the same - but they are being upgraded.

Even the rest of N18 Limerick-Galway (north of Ennis to Athenry) is likely to happen before the N20; and will be dual carriageway all the way, while on the N20, the "OK" bit of road is wide two lane or retrofitted 2+1 apart from the DC sections into Limerick and Cork.

The need for motorways on the roads out of Dublin does not mean that we should be content with a substandard road network in the rest of the country for another 10 years. It's quite simply dangerous, bad for business, and embarrassing for one of the more well-off Western countries.

mike65

I agree on that the N24 is a joke as well.

Mike.

Chris_533976

Zoney wrote:

I think it's fairly valid to complain about having a goat track for a significant amount of the N20 (Limerick - Cork) with nothing to be done about it until 2012 at the earliest.

From the end of the Croom bypass, to north of Mallow, excluding a small bit south of Charleville, the road is narrow two lane country road with bad twists and bends.

Now I know some other major routes are like this - the N9 is mostly the same - but they are being upgraded.

Even the rest of N18 Limerick-Galway (north of Ennis to Athenry) is likely to happen before the N20; and will be dual carriageway all the way, while on the N20, the "OK" bit of road is wide two lane or retrofitted 2+1 apart from the DC sections into Limerick and Cork.

The need for motorways on the roads out of Dublin does not mean that we should be content with a substandard road network in the rest of the country for another 10 years. It's quite simply dangerous, bad for business, and embarrassing for one of the more well-off Western countries.

What worries me a bit is all these maps the NRA are giving... for example the one I saw recently showing proposed motorway/DC rest stops and services. They show what they're planning to do - clear DC from Cork - Dublin, Dublin - Galway,Limerick,Waterford etc. Even Limerick - Galway is shown on there.

Cork - Limerick isnt, meaning its on the very,very long finger.

And FFS please tar the middle of Charleville. Its absolutely atrotious.

mike65

Its a shocker is'nt it? And the fecking bus stop right in the middle of it all.

Mike.

Slice

D'Peoples Voice: This is an accusation that is often levied against Dublin by our country cousins,
how many of them are actually aware of how untrue this is!

According to the NRA, The country with the greatest amount of motorway within it's borders is Kildare

I think the complaint is more about how all motorways lead to Dublin. How does it make sense to build more motorways feeding into Dublin when the M50 cannot handle the traffic it gets at present or the projected traffic its anticipated it will get when the upgrade works are complete??

bk

Slice wrote:

I think the complaint is more about how all motorways lead to Dublin. How does it make sense to build more motorways feeding into Dublin when the M50 cannot handle the traffic it gets at present or the projected traffic its anticipated it will get when the upgrade works are complete??

Simply because that is where people want to go to and come from.

Coming from Cork to Dublin, I'd rather have a fast, safe and comfortable trip on a Motorway and then get snarled up on the M50, then drive on an awful country lane between Cork and Dublin and still get snarled up on the M50.

BTW Most of the motorways won't be complete until 2010, when the M50 widening, free flow junctions and electronic tolling should all be in place and improve things on thye M50 slightly.

Chris_533976

End of 2010 is my own personal guess for interurban completion, I just base than on how long these things take and that its a realistic date given the current start dates etc.

Flukey

Most of our road network is basically built on the radial system out of Dublin, the old Nx roads. Things have improved, but there does need to be more done in terms of upgrading roads and building motorways to link the regions to the regions. It will help promote regional development. Something like Galway to Rosslare or Sligo to Dundalk or whatever. Maybe not all to motorway standard, but certainly higher levels of road and more imaginative routes. The railways are very much radial too and the same kind of links should be done there too.

bk

The current T21 plan rightfully targets traffic in and around and to and from Dublin, as these are the busiest roads in the country.

After the current plan is completed, I believe there will be a new transport plan that will continue to build on public transport in Dublin and the regional roads in the rest of the country.

corktina

mike65 wrote:

Its a shocker is'nt it? And the fecking bus stop right in the middle of it all.

Mike.

surely you dont go through Charleville still do you?

Theres a fine bypass if you know where it is.....:)

1huge1

Chris_533976 wrote:

End of 2010 is my own personal guess for interurban completion, I just base than on how long these things take and that its a realistic date given the current start dates etc.

while all they have to do to make limerick-dublin fully motorway/dc is have a motorway from limerick to nenagh and this is planned but at the rate it seems to be going 2010 could become optimistic

and it seems that the limerick-galway will be done by then due to the atlantic corridor project but as for the limerick-cork that road is beyond belief and nothing is being done about it not a hope of it being done by 2010
luckily i live on the old cork road (hospital co. limerick)
so its much easier for me to head south and cut onto the M8 at mitchellstown

Slice

bk: The current T21 plan rightfully targets traffic in and around and to and from Dublin, as these are the busiest roads in the country

I had read somewhere that improvements to the motorway network around Dublin would not offset growing congestion on roads around the city.

If all traffic is encouraged through the M50 then upgrading the M50 seems to only address a symptom of the problem and not the problem itself. wouldn't part of the solution be to improve other roads and public transport or build new routes that don't rely on the M50? More development along the M50 occurring along the route of Metro West will make things worse for the M50, at which point we'll be back to this same point now where arguments are being made to increase capacity along this route based on its inability to cope with increased traffic levels. Congestion charging is an obvious alternative in my opinion.

Chris_533976

Nah N18 is fairly low priority. Crusheen - Gort and Gort - Oranmore schemes wont be touched till after the interurbans are done IMO. Plus Gort - Oranmore is worthless without Galway - Ballinasloe part of N6 being finished, as it directly ties in with it.

bk

Slice wrote:

If all traffic is encouraged through the M50 then upgrading the M50 seems to only address a symptom of the problem and not the problem itself. wouldn't part of the solution be to improve other roads and public transport or build new routes that don't rely on the M50? More development along the M50 occurring along the route of Metro West will make things worse for the M50, at which point we'll be back to this same point now where arguments are being made to increase capacity along this route based on its inability to cope with increased traffic levels. Congestion charging is an obvious alternative in my opinion.

Even if you don't invest in the M50, Metro West and the roads around it, development is going to continue to increase in West Dublin due to it being pretty much the only green field sites close to Dublin and the massive demand for housing and business.

Investing in roads in other parts of the country like Limerick and not in the M50 would have zero impact on this. People simply want to live and work in Dublin and that is the simple reality. Therefore development of the M50 and Metro West will and must continue.

BTW The motorways leading into Dublin are actually far over specified for the traffic they carry, so their is plenty of overhead there.

Also what you need to realise is that free flow junctions will make a massive difference on the M50. Traffic on the M50 is actually fine, it is only as you approach the tolls and the traffic light controlled junctions that the congestion starts. With free flow junctions and electronic tolls this should be greatly helped and the M50 should have plenty of capacity going forward.

Any talk of congestion charging is ridiculous for many years to come, we need a vastly better public transport infrastructure to even think about that.

bill_ashmount

bk wrote:

People simply want to live and work in Dublin and that is the simple reality.

I don't think this is necessarily true. From what I can gather a lot of people would love to leave Dublin but cannot due to lack of appropriate employment opportunities. Continuing to focus everything on Dublin will only make it worse for these people and ultimately worse for those who want to stay in Dublin.

bk

bill_ashmount wrote:

I don't think this is necessarily true. From what I can gather a lot of people would love to leave Dublin but cannot due to lack of appropriate employment opportunities. Continuing to focus everything on Dublin will only make it worse for these people and ultimately worse for those who want to stay in Dublin.

The government offers lots of tax incentives etc. to big companies to set up outside Dublin. Yet the likes of Google turned down all these incentives and set up shop in Dublin, because that is simply where all the skilled staff are based and those staff wouldn't move from Dublin.

Likewise just look at the governments decentralisation plan which is a complete disaster as very few of the civil servants wanted to move.

The reality is that big companies need access to go roads, broadband and most importantly a large pool of young, well educated, college grads. The governments current process of trying to get such companies to move into little towns in the middle of nowhere is doomed to failure, instead they should be trying to set up centres of excellence like the IFSC in Cork, Galway and Limerick cities and attract the big companies there.

Slice

bk:
The government offers lots of tax incentives etc. to big companies to set up outside Dublin. Yet the likes of Google turned down all these incentives and set up shop in Dublin, because that is simply where all the skilled staff are based and those staff wouldn't move from Dublin.

And from the Examiner, By Brian O’Mahony, Chief Business Correspondent...

Developer: dockland delays are stunting city’s growth

FAILURE to develop Cork’s 420-acre Docklands site is robbing the city of its potential to develop into a major international location for business.


That failure has cost the city the strategic investment by Google in Ireland, because of the region’s inability to provide the internet giant with a proper site, according to Howard Holdings chief executive Greg Coughlan.

Addressing a Cork business seminar yesterday, he said that six years into the 20-year development plan for the Docklands, little has been achieved, and developers who want to invest cannot do so with any confidence.

He said the time frame to roll out the plan was not credible: “I can’t believe that any other developed European economy, with an opportunity like we have, would have accepted this time scale.”

The boss of Howard Holdings, which is headquartered in Cork and has €4 billion worth of property development on its books, has called for an all-out effort to be made to give the project coherence.

“If the intention of the Docklands project is to attract commercial developers to invest in the first instance and to create the kind of facilities and infrastructure which are required, then the overarching and inhibiting bureaucracy within the relevant public authorities and agencies need to be jettisoned,” he said.

“Something needs to be done to clear the channels, to allow work to progress.

“How can a developer operate in a docklands project where the achievement of a bridge order could take five years or when securing a foreshore licence from the relevant authority could take two years?”

In terms of clearing the traps, Mr Coughlan said a good start would be for the Government to inform Cork City Council that it will allocate funding to develop public infrastructure within the Docklands.

Mr Coughlan said the roll-out of the project at an “acceptable pace simply does not exist at this point”.

Furthermore, Mr Coughlan expressed deep concern at the actions of the Port of Cork, which has been auctioning off small almost “un-developable” quayside strips of land.

That action had the potential to pave the way for the “ransoming of development across some of the key locations in the Docklands for years to come”, he said.

Calina

bk wrote:

The government offers lots of tax incentives etc. to big companies to set up outside Dublin. Yet the likes of Google turned down all these incentives and set up shop in Dublin, because that is simply where all the skilled staff are based and those staff wouldn't move from Dublin.

Likewise just look at the governments decentralisation plan which is a complete disaster as very few of the civil servants wanted to move.

The reality is that big companies need access to go roads, broadband and most importantly a large pool of young, well educated, college grads. The governments current process of trying to get such companies to move into little towns in the middle of nowhere is doomed to failure, instead they should be trying to set up centres of excellence like the IFSC in Cork, Galway and Limerick cities and attract the big companies there.

You are very naive. The point is I have been trying to get the hell out of Dublin down to Cork or Limerick for the past 6 years. I cannot find a job either in Cork or Limerick or in Galway which match my qualifications. The reasons for people gravitating towards Dublin - no one really wants to live in what is essentially a hellhole of a city if there are better options elsewhere - is that there is so little targetted investment being done in other places.

Things are such that I'm strongly considering emigrating again because this country is so askew. The reason companies are prone to locating in Dublin has less to do with people - people are essentially mobile - is that most of the decent infrastructure is in the greater Dublin area, in the comms and transport areas for example. And that's only for a given value of decent. In real terms, Dublin is appalling.

I've come to the conclusion that apart from building a few roads and the Luas, the country is not essentially a can do nation on the infrastructure front. It would be more accurate to say that we're cheapskates actually. You only have to look at Dublin Airport. You only have to look at the M50. You only have to look Dublin Bus. We don't put any serious thought into anything. We talk for years around problems in a process of consultation that seems to systematically lead to problems down the line if anything gets done. I happened to be in Bordeaux 4 years ago on New Year's Eve and although I can probably remember a few lovely buildings, what I remember most was that things got done there. They were in the process of building a tramway system and some decent underground carparks. All over the place were apologies about the disruption of so much work going on at once, but the rationale behind it was that at least when it was done, things would work, and streets would not be constantly being torn up.

Contrast that to here: 1) We need to build a port tunnel. It runs over time and budget by two years and Xmillion. Just as it is due to open, we decide to upgrade the already packed ring road onto which it will feed traffic. 2) Our main airport for the country is overburdened. We do a bit of cosmetic work. As it's ready, it's already obselete. Now we're talking about building a second terminal. Why are we at this point? Because 10 years ago when we started looking into capacity problems, we did the least amount of work that we needed to do and hey...it wasn't enough. It about typifies the country, I think.

Calina

Calina wrote:

no one really wants to live in what is essentially a hellhole of a city if there are better options elsewhere.

I was born and reared in Dear ole Dublin and agree with that statement 100%
Only people who have put down roots want to stay - I bet very few of those Civil servants who were offered decentralisation were prospective first time buyers!!!

The best farmland is in the East of this country - wasted in a messed up urban sprawl - Dublin should have been built UPward.
Motorways should have been built in the country years ago it would totally transform us - its a very small island - our trains are ultra slow too - 100MPH average speed for a Train in modern times in not alot to ask, you could live 100 miles away and commute to Dublin in an hour etc etc

bk

Calina wrote:

You are very naive. The point is I have been trying to get the hell out of Dublin down to Cork or Limerick for the past 6 years. I cannot find a job either in Cork or Limerick or in Galway which match my qualifications. The reasons for people gravitating towards Dublin - no one really wants to live in what is essentially a hellhole of a city if there are better options elsewhere - is that there is so little targetted investment being done in other places.

Naive??

Hello, I'm saying exactly the same thing as you. I'm a Corkonian living in Dublin, because all the good IT jobs are in Dublin. Most of my friends from UCC are living in Dublin or London now. I'd love to go back to Cork, but Cork doesn't have many good IT jobs.

The reason for this is a cycle. All the qualified people like us head to Dublin, because that is where all the jobs in our sectors are. And then any new company that wants to set up in our sector in Ireland has to also head to Dublin, because most of the good staff are already in Dublin.

That is exactly why Google set up right in the heart of Dublin city and are paying some of the highest office rental rates in the country, so they could poach experienced financial services staff from the IFSC area. There is no other reason, there isn't any infrastructure that Google needs that they couldn't also get in Cork, Limerick or Galway.

How will we break this cycle, by the government creating very specific centres of excellence, similar to the IFSC in Cork, Limerick and Galway city.

Hotblack Desiato

bk wrote:

How will we break this cycle, by the government creating very specific centres of excellence, similar to the IFSC in Cork, Limerick and Galway city.

...then the Waterford/Sligo/Athlone TDs pipe up about how outrageous it is that their town is being 'downgraded and ignored by this government' etc. etc. End result is the one-for-everyone-in-the-audience spatial strategy that the govt. then undermines even further with scattergun decentralisation. Nowhere achieves critical mass and Dublin sprawl gets worse and worse, but who cares so long as the developers are making plenty of money, right?

Government is supposed to be about making hard decisions, not trying to please everyone by giving them what they want and not just what they need...

Bards

Please do not include Waterford as a town..

We are a city and Gateway City at that not a historical City but a real City just like Cork, Dublin, Limerick and Galway, Waterford CIty is almost the same size as Limerick FFS. Back in the 60's we were larger than Galway. Govt underfunding of Waterford led to it's decline an is only now getting back to where it should be thanks for the first time since the founding of the State that Waterford has a senior minister.

Zoney

ninja900 wrote:

...then the Waterford/Sligo/Athlone TDs pipe up about how outrageous it is that their town is being 'downgraded and ignored by this government' etc. etc.

The three examples you give are not good ones if you mean to refer to local interests before national. Waterford, Sligo and Athlone are regional centres already, and should be strengthened significantly. Sligo and Athlone should both be fostered to become cities. Fortunately Sligo and Waterford are both on the "Atlantic road corridor" which is earmarked for improvement. If the government are any bit serious about balanced regional development, we will see the Western Rail Corridor reopened all the way also.

I should point out that the decentralisation programme is not a good example of how to do balanced regional development - it exists merely to keep some Ministers and civil servants happy, who don't want to be in Dublin all the time. It also exists to allow the govt. to say "look, we're doing balanced regional development. Now go away and stop asking for things like planned development of Cork, Limerick, Galway, Sligo, Waterford".

In this country, everything is unfortunately "each man for himself". The plus side is that if you shout loud enough, you'll have something thrown your way. The downside is there are many in this country who can't or won't shout.

Slice

bk: People simply want to live and work in Dublin and that is the simple reality.

and later...

bk: I'm a Corkonian living in Dublin, because all the good IT jobs are in Dublin. Most of my friends from UCC are living in Dublin or London now. I'd love to go back to Cork, but Cork doesn't have many good IT jobs.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here and proving my point that in many cases people don't "simply want to live and work in Dublin" but do so because of other factors influencing their circumstance. Of course these factors would be different (and consequently people's choices would be different) if there was equal emphasis and political will on developing infrastructure in Cork as there is on taking care of Dublin. All motorways leading to Dublin is just an example of this. The problem is to do with the way this country’s government is incredibly centralised. Local authorities have little power to act in their own interest without backing from central government; and central government has to consider the political consequences such backing has on neighbouring constituencies so effectively whoever makes the loudest noise wins – in this case Dublin.

My point is that Dublin wins to the detriment of everyone else and to it's own detriment as well. It's a race to the bottom scenario.

Calina

bk wrote:

Naive??

Hello, I'm saying exactly the same thing as you. I'm a Corkonian living in Dublin, because all the good IT jobs are in Dublin. Most of my friends from UCC are living in Dublin or London now. I'd love to go back to Cork, but Cork doesn't have many good IT jobs.

No, you specifically said that the reality was that people wanted to live in Dublin. Which you've now contradicted.

Local governance in this country really need to be reassessed. Far too much planning is done on a wholly central level.

bk

Sorry if I seem like I'm contradicting myself, but I'm not really.

What I'm trying to say is that people currently and will likely continue to "want" to live in Dublin because that is where all the jobs are.

Notice how I put "want" in quotes, many people like myself would prefer to live outside Dublin, but the jobs in our areas simply aren't there.

But lets look at why there aren't big companies setting up outside of Dublin.

Earlier someone said that people are flexible and will easily move. Well that depends, people in their 20's without family or roots will usually easily move, but often people in their 30's have usually meet someone, got married and maybe have kids and are far less likely to move. That is how we get the effect of new grads heading for Dublin (because that is where all the jobs are) working there for several years, but then they eventually settle down, meet someone, have kids and then don't want to move from there.

This is why so many civil servants don't want to move from Dublin.

Now lets look at the example of Google and why they wouldn't set up in Cork and instead set up in the most expensive area in the country. Google in Ireland is doing mostly financial services and sales in Ireland. Now it would have no problems getting lots of grads from UCC, but the problem is that in any company, you also want a mix of well experienced people to help train and support those grads. It is those more experienced people that are hard to get, because they are typically settled, well paid and already have a home, wife and kids and are therefore unlikely to move. That is why Google sets up just around the corner from the IFSC, because it lets them much more easily head hunt the experienced staff from the other similar companies in the IFSC.

As you can see that this is a fairly complicated problem, that won't be fixed by just building or not building some roads. What it needs is for the government to set up areas of excellence in financial services, IT and R&D in Cork, etc. First off attract small and medium sized companies with big tax breaks, etc. into the designated areas of excellence, after a few years these companies will build up an experienced staff that will attract the bigger companies like Google out of Dublin and will stop the flow of grads from Cork to Dublin.

Hotblack Desiato

Bards and Zoney, thanks for making my point for me

The distinction between 'town' and 'city' (maybe I should have said 'settlement' when referring to those 3 places :rolleyes: ) in this country is pretty meaningless and archaic except for the people who happen to live there. Some 'towns' are bigger than some 'cities'.

The point another poster made earlier was that at the moment we only have one really strong growth centre: Dublin. If we want to promote growth away from Dublin, and as a born and bred Dub I say a resounding Yes, then we have to concentrate on no more than a handful of alternatives so they can gain critical mass. I'm talking Cork, Limerick and Galway, and going beyond that is just starting the dilution process and dooming it to failure.

The reaction of 'but what about XXXX where I live' is exactly the point I was making! As long as politics in this country continues to operate on the parish pump level everyone in this country will lose out including Dubs!

Bards

ninja900 wrote:

Bards and Zoney, thanks for making my point for me

The distinction between 'town' and 'city' (maybe I should have said 'settlement' when referring to those 3 places :rolleyes: ) in this country is pretty meaningless and archaic except for the people who happen to live there. Some 'towns' are bigger than some 'cities'.

The point another poster made earlier was that at the moment we only have one really strong growth centre: Dublin. If we want to promote growth away from Dublin, and as a born and bred Dub I say a resounding Yes, then we have to concentrate on no more than a handful of alternatives so they can gain critical mass. I'm talking Cork, Limerick and Galway, and going beyond that is just starting the dilution process and dooming it to failure.

The reaction of 'but what about XXXX where I live' is exactly the point I was making! As long as politics in this country continues to operate on the parish pump level everyone in this country will lose out including Dubs!

That is utter Bull... there are close to 500,000 people living in the S.E with Waterford City and it's hinterland accounting for over 100,000 this is the same amount that are living within Limerick and Galway.

You can't leave one area out for the sake of it. The govt should be supporting this region, it has some of the best accesses to Europe. Already has a very important Port.

How did Galway overtake Waterford when Waterord was in a better strategic location. the answer was simple. Govt neglect. I am fed up with having to defend Waterford and the S.E when no matter which way you look at it we have every right to be treated equally to the other regions and Cities of this Island. No more, and no less.

bk

Bards wrote:

That is utter Bull... there are close to 500,000 people living in the S.E with Waterford City and it's hinterland accounting for over 100,000 this is the same amount that are living within Limerick and Galway.

Huh?

According to the census, the Waterford urban areas consists of 50,000 people.

Most of the 500,000 you talk of are in Cork, with 274,000 being in the Cork Metropolitan region alone.

I'm afraid I agree with ninga900 on this. The areas of excellence should be set up in Cork and Galway (and maybe Limerick). As it is Belfast is already being developed in that way. So you would end up with centers of excellence in the four sides of the country, Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Galway and maybe Limerick.

Let me put it this way, the IFSC alone employees over 15,000 people. The centers of excellence I'm talking of setting up, would employ about 10,000 people. Waterford simply doesn't have a big enough population to support that.

In the end it is just talk and unfortunately unlikely to happen. However I do like the plans to setup a City West like development in Mallow.

Bards

bk wrote:

Huh?

According to the census, the Waterford urban areas consists of 50,000 people.

Most of the 500,000 you talk of are in Cork, with 274,000 being in the Cork Metropolitan region alone.

I'm afraid I agree with ninga900 on this. The areas of excellence should be set up in Cork and Galway (and maybe Limerick). As it is Belfast is already being developed in that way. So you would end up with centers of excellence in the four sides of the country, Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Galway and maybe Limerick.

Let me put it this way, the IFSC alone employees over 15,000 people. The centers of excellence I'm talking of setting up, would employ about 10,000 people. Waterford simply doesn't have a big enough population to support that.

In the end it is just talk and unfortunately unlikely to happen. However I do like the plans to setup a City West like development in Mallow.

and Limerick consists of 65,000.. not a huge difference now is there.

Within a 30 mile radius of Waterford City the pop rises to over 125,000 within 50 miles it approaches 500,00 all within the S.E and doesn't touch Cork

please check your facts from CSO before posting such rubbish that we are counting Cork pop in our figures

mad man

bk wrote:

Huh?

According to the census, the Waterford urban areas consists of 50,000 people.

Most of the 500,000 you talk of are in Cork, with 274,000 being in the Cork Metropolitan region alone.

I'm afraid I agree with ninga900 on this. The areas of excellence should be set up in Cork and Galway (and maybe Limerick). As it is Belfast is already being developed in that way. So you would end up with centers of excellence in the four sides of the country, Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Galway and maybe Limerick.

Let me put it this way, the IFSC alone employees over 15,000 people. The centers of excellence I'm talking of setting up, would employ about 10,000 people. Waterford simply doesn't have a big enough population to support that.

In the end it is just talk and unfortunately unlikely to happen. However I do like the plans to setup a City West like development in Mallow.

The problem with this analysis is it is dependent on census figure which largely are confined to aministrative councils. that do not reflect demographics of a region.Waterford at 50000 may not seem large enough to have Critical mass by itself.However Galway does not either at 65000 nor Limerick at 89000.The Critical mass that is needed in the provincial cities are solely dependent on its urban core and Hinterland.The population of Waterfords Hinterland is comparable to that Galway and Limerick.The ESRI has previously acknowledged this.It has also acknowledged that Waterford Geographically is one of the most important economic areas in the country due to the proximity of its port to Europe and is the most naturally sustainable region outside Dublin and Cork.The South East Region as a whole is comparable in size to Cork and has the same population.To ignore Waterford in favour of Cork would just Create another urban Sprawl in the South of the country.This would only have one of two effects.Depopulating the SE counties or else long commutes to Cork effectively emulating the planning Fiasco that is Dublin.

bk

Bards wrote:

and Limerick consists of 65,000.. not a huge difference now is there.

Within a 30 mile radius of Waterford City the pop rises to over 125,000 within 50 miles it approaches 500,00 all within the S.E and doesn't touch Cork

please check your facts from CSO before posting such rubbish that we are counting Cork pop in our figures

Ok, here are the facts from the 2006 census:

Waterford City: 45,775
Waterford Urban area (incl city): 50,000
Waterford County (incl City): 107,942

Limerick City: 52,560
Limerick Urban area (incl city): 93,321
Limerick County (incl City): 183,863

And notice how I said Limerick would even been marginal for what I'm proposing.

And I have no idea of where your getting 500,000 within 50 miles from? Waterford county has population of 107,942 (an area of 1,837 km²), South Tipperary is 83,052 and the whole of Kilkenny 80,394, Wexford 131,615 that adds up to 403,003 and lets be honest, they all certainly aren't within 50 miles of Waterford city or even easy commuting distance. I'd say more realistically we are talking about max 90,000 people who are within commuting distance of Waterford city.

And sure if we are including Waterford, why not include
Dundalk Town Urban 29,010 + another 20,530 rural
or Ennis Urban 20,234 + another 26,043 rural

I'm sorry, but at some stage you just have to be realistic, Ireland can't support too many IFSC's. Dublin yes, Belfast yes, Cork just about, even Galway and Limerick would be very borderline, anything below that and we are really getting into too small a population size and the usual BS of services outside been Dublin getting too stretched and therefore having little effect.

Bards

bk wrote:

Ok, here are the facts from the 2006 census:

Waterford City: 45,775
Waterford Urban area (incl city): 50,000
Waterford County (incl City): 107,942

Limerick City: 52,560
Limerick Urban area (incl city): 93,321
Limerick County (incl City): 183,863

And notice how I said Limerick would even been marginal for what I'm proposing.

And I have no idea of where your getting 500,000 within 50 miles from? Waterford county has population of 107,942 (an area of 1,837 km²), South Tipperary is 83,052 and the whole of Kilkenny 80,394, Wexford 131,615 that adds up to 403,003 and lets be honest, they all certainly aren't within 50 miles of Waterford city or even easy commuting distance. I'd say more realistically we are talking about max 90,000 people who are within commuting distance of Waterford city.

And sure if we are including Waterford, why not include
Dundalk Town Urban 29,010 + another 20,530 rural
or Ennis Urban 20,234 + another 26,043 rural

I'm sorry, but at some stage you just have to be realistic, Ireland can't support too many IFSC's. Dublin yes, Belfast yes, Cork just about, even Galway and Limerick would be very borderline, anything below that and we are really getting into too small a population size and the usual BS of services outside been Dublin getting too stretched and therefore having little effect.

last time I checked Carlow with a population of Circa 90,000 waqs within the S.E region so that brings the S.E very close to 500,000

bk

I just saw mad man's post and I actually with most of his points.

I'm not saying that no development should go to Waterford, just that we probably can't support 6 IFSC type centres (Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford).

Thinking about it more, we can probably support about 3 IFSC's at the moment, with only Dublin, Belfast and Cork only really having big enough metropolitan populations to support it.

Now that isn't to say that Limerick, Galway or Waterford shouldn't receive continuing development, they certainly should, to avoid the situaion that mad man of Cork becoming just like Dublin, but maybe instead they should focus on strengths in alternative areas. For instance given Waterfords port facilities, maybe try and attract some of Corks Pharmaceutical industries.

bk

Bards wrote:

last time I checked Carlow with a population of Circa 90,000 waqs within the S.E region so that brings the S.E very close to 500,000

:rolleyes:

Come on your talking about a very large geographic area, most of these people certainly aren't within 50 miles of Waterford city like you claimed and certainly aren't within easy commuting distance of Waterford (specially when you consider the quality of the roads).

I can't find any reports on the population of the catchment area of Waterford, but I'd be surprised if it was over 100,000 people.

Bards

bk wrote:

How will we break this cycle, by the government creating very specific centres of excellence, similar to the IFSC in Cork, Limerick and Galway city.

this is the quote that got our backs up here in the S.E

Waterford & the S.E can support a center of excellence whether that is in the pharma or ICT etc remains to be seen.. but with a pop of circa 500,000 and govt support, given the excellent location etc we most certaintly can.

Bards

from the IDA website

http://www.idaireland.com/home/index.aspx?id=146

Waterford City is the capital of the South East Region. With a population of 46,736 and more than 335,000 within a 60km commuting distance, the city is strategically located on the North-South Corridor Euroroute 30, with Dublin, Cork and Limerick each within a 2.5 hour drive.

60km is only 36 miles

bk

Bards wrote:

this is the quote that got our backs up here in the S.E

Waterford & the S.E can support a center of excellence whether that is in the pharma or ICT etc remains to be seen.. but with a pop of circa 500,000 and govt support, given the excellent location etc we most certaintly can.

And I call BS when I see quotes of 500,000. Specially when you say all 500,000 are within 50 miles of Waterford city. Again I'm not saying Waterford shouldn't be developed, but that we do need to be realistic about what can go where and what it can sustain.

One of the major problems I see with Waterford is the lack of a University, yes there is WIT, but you really need a University to attract the sort of business we are talking about here.

Bards

bk wrote:

One of the major problems I see with Waterford is the lack of a University, yes there is WIT, but you really need a University to attract the sort of business we are talking about here.

and why do you think we have been campaining for a University in the S.E

Dublin has 4 for a pop of circa 1,000,000 that's one for every 250,000 approx

so the S.E can easily accomodate one university to stop the brain drain and become a centre of excellence

bk

Bards wrote:

from the IDA website

http://www.idaireland.com/home/index.aspx?id=146

Waterford City is the capital of the South East Region. With a population of 46,736 and more than 335,000 within a 60km commuting distance, the city is strategically located on the North-South Corridor Euroroute 30, with Dublin, Cork and Limerick each within a 2.5 hour drive.

60km is only 36 miles

Ah come on, I call BS on this map as well. First of all it includes parts of Cork, like Youghal and Fermoy, which are actually closer to Cork City then Waterford city.

The map also includes places like Arklow (65 miles from Waterford), Carlow (46 miles), Clonmel and Kilkenny (both 29 miles). I'm sorry but non of these places are in the normal daily commute distance to Waterford city, specially not on the roads that a lot of them are on.

Bards

bk wrote:

Ah come on, I call BS on this map as well. First of all it includes parts of Cork, like Youghal and Fermoy, which are actually closer to Cork City then Waterford city.

The map also includes places like Arklow (65 miles from Waterford), Carlow (46 miles), Clonmel and Kilkenny (both 29 miles). I'm sorry but non of these places are in the normal daily commute distance to Waterford city, specially not on the roads that a lot of them are on.

it does not..

it covers the counties of the S.E region

Waterford
Wexford
Kilkenny
Carlow
South Tipperary

please look at the county boundaries

1huge1

Bards wrote:

Please do not include Waterford as a town..

We are a city and Gateway City at that not a historical City but a real City just like Cork, Dublin, Limerick and Galway, Waterford CIty is almost the same size as Limerick FFS. Back in the 60's we were larger than Galway. Govt underfunding of Waterford led to it's decline an is only now getting back to where it should be thanks for the first time since the founding of the State that Waterford has a senior minister.

yes I agree waterford is definetly no town with quiet a big population in irish terms but it is no were near the same size as limerick sorry
if your going by the 2006 population of limerick at 52,000 then it would seem that way but the population is close to double that

sorry went off topic but thought i should just say it

bk

Bards wrote:

Dublin has 4 for a pop of circa 1,000,000 that's one for every 250,000 approx

Dublin Region population is 1,186,159, and the Greater Dublin Area 1,661,185.

Dublin has three university's, TCD, UCD and DCU. DIT is not strictly a university, but it pretty much has all the same powers of one. BTW Dublin also has three IT's, Tallaght, Blanchardstown and Dún Laoghaire.

Bards wrote:

and why do you think we have been campaining for a University in the S.E

so the S.E can easily accomodate one university to stop the brain drain and become a centre of excellence

And I completely support that, their talking of turning WIT into a university, aren't they?

bk

Bards wrote:

it does not..

it covers the counties of the S.E region

Waterford
Wexford
Kilkenny
Carlow
South Tipperary

please look at the county boundaries

Right, looking carefully, I can see what you mean, Youghal and Fermoy are jsut there for descriptive purposes. But my point about the distances of Arklow, Carlow, Clonmel, Kilkenny, Wexford and Rosslare, being too far for a daily commute still stand.

Bards

bk wrote:

Right, looking carefully, I can see what you mean, Youghal and Fermoy are jsut there for descriptive purposes. But my point about the distances of Arklow, Carlow, Clonmel, Kilkenny, Wexford and Rosslare, being too far for a daily commute still stand.

I hate to break it to you but I work with people from Kilkenny, Carlow Clonmel Wexford and rosslare.. every day.. they all commute..

merlante

There are five place in Ireland of any sort of significance. Those are Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford, in that order. These are regional capitals, cities and gateway cities.

No town in Ireland is larger than one of the cities. (Kilkenny is no longer a city for administrative purposes.)

Dublin and Cork are clearly on a different scale to the others. However, Limerick, Galway and Waterford are of the same sort of scale.

There is absolutely no reason to suggest that Limerick or Galway somehow have more scale or critical mass than Waterford, beyond whatever impetus they are given in terms of government funding or strategy. These cities achieve what critical mass they have from their hinterland, not just from the population of the cities, which is small.

The south east region, of which Waterford is the capital, is larger than the West or the mid-West. It has a tight network of large towns, which makes for a balanced and strong region, and one in which it makes sense to invest, because there are no significant black spots or depopulating areas, so the investment pays off.

Waterford Port is the closest to mainland Europe. It should be the second or third largest in the country, as it has been. By taking the natural step of improving the port, Waterford could quiet easily become one of Ireland's most strategic and important cities after Dublin and Cork. It could quiet easily grow larger than Limerick and Galway.

In my opinion, suggesting that Limerick or Galway have some sort of magical scale that Waterford does not have is just perpetuating self-serving myths. Waterford is one of the centres that will enjoy continuous growth into the future because it is one of the best located cities in the country. Galway, for example, is poorly located in a province that is very sparsely inhabited, with a weak urban network, and big problem areas. Where's your critical mass there? You basically have a thriving city in a region that is never going to develop any cohesion or strength. Only the area around Galway city is thriving, because that's the only place for miles where jobs can be found.

Waterford and the south east is a stronger proposition for the future in my opinion.

And yeah, I find it laughable that the likes of Athlone are mentioned alongside 'towns' like Waterford. Tramore, a dormitary town of Waterford, at 10,000 people, is almost as large as some of these places.

The five natural centres that should be engines of the Irish economy are the five Irish cities. These cities are cities because they've been doing just that for the past 1,000 years.

fricatus

bk wrote:

Dublin Region population is 1,186,159, and the Greater Dublin Area 1,661,185.

Dublin has three university's, TCD, UCD and DCU.

True, but the fourth one I think bards is talking about is Maynooth, which is certainly in the Greater Dublin Area.