Armed gardaí to police streets over December

arybvtcw0eolkf

Mairt wrote:

This isn't a subject which should be discussed.

Because while a conversation like this can simple pretty innocent to you, it can quickly lead onto operational matter's concerning the Guard & the Defence Forces. There was a discussion regarding this in the military forum awhile back. Operational matter don't concern you, or anyone else on this board.

'Loose lips sink ships'!!..

arybvtcw0eolkf

Victor wrote:

Rifles aren't very practical for getting in and out of cars.

It has also been traditional for (non-paramilitary) police forces to use 9mm weapons as the rounds have a short range, which is safer for the general public.

The Steyr AUG is a very adaptable weapon.

Its bulpup design makes it very easy to mount & dismount from vehicles. It can also be fitted with a shorter barrel & even comes in a 9mm version..

http://remtek.com/arms/steyr/aug/specs/family.gif

Some British police forces use it.

Currently the Irish police use the Israeli Uzi.

Victor

Mairt wrote:

The Steyr AUG is a very adaptable weapon.

Sure, but what happens the round that misses the target in an urban area?

And if they've just splashed out on new sub-machineguns, why buy rifles?

Mairt wrote:

markk06 wrote:

Evidently you arent familiar with the fact that the army regularily escort cash in transit vans

This isn't a subject which should be discussed.

I think your paranoia is getting the better of you. Thsi is something that can be seen on the streets any day of the week.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Victor wrote:

Thsi is something that can be seen on the streets any day of the week.

I'm talking about a subject which can lead into something which shouldn't be discussed here.

My paranoia?... I'm a member of the Defence Forces and well briefed on operational matter's. And discussing operational matter's serve's no one any good here.

Btw Victor, you have a PM.

markk06

Mairt wrote:

Operational matter don't concern you, or anyone else on this board.

'Loose lips sink ships'!!..

Operational matters? C'mon this is common knowledge....

Mairt wrote:

Currently the Irish police use the Israeli Uzi.

Now who's talking about "operational matters"???

Mairt wrote:

My paranoia?... I'm a member of the Defence Forces and well briefed on operational matter's. And discussing operational matter's serve's no one any good here.

I'm voicing my opinions (as are most people i assume) as a general member of the public... However coming on and saying you are "well briefed" is ridiculous... if you are in the defence forces you shouldnt be mentioning it at all

Dyr

Mairt wrote:

Currently the Irish police use the Israeli Uzi.

Are they still using uzi's? jeebus, well i suppose it increases their chances of actually hitting something*




*"something " not necessarily being the bad guys

Manic Moran

I think you might want to redefine your definition of operational matters. TTPs and schedules should be off-limits. Saying that the Army actually does a task is not only not an Opsec issue, it is something that the humble taxpayer probably has a right to know as they are spending money on it. Fortunately, knowing isn't any harder than just looking out the window of the bus, as the Army doesn't take many efforts to hide their presence, even the opposite.

NTM

Savman

Mairt wrote:

I'm talking about a subject which can lead into something which shouldn't be discussed here.

Jeebus Mairt you're having a laugh surely? I suppose you think a few of us Boardsies might use the information to go and ram a Securicor van in a smash & grab job? Ridiculous.

Mairt wrote:

My paranoia?... I'm a member of the Defence Forces and well briefed on operational matter's.

What about the 1st + 2nd Rules of Fight Club...:rolleyes:

stovelid

We do have armed police, mate.

IMO, armed special branch or ERU Garda have been sufficient for the republican and/or criminal gun crimes in the Republic.

Despite the awful Anthony Campbell incident, the recent crime shootings seem to be mostly criminal on criminal and not, as the certain elements of the press would have it; open season on either Garda or the public.

Only when it gets to that stage, should we consider arming rank and file Garda.

DaveMcG wrote:

It was only a matter of time before our police would grab some arms. It's only a matter of time now before a pistol is part of the uniform for the rank-and-file. We've had it pretty sweet for so long, in that we haven't had a gun problem, organised crime wasn't an issue, and the Gardaí could just stroll around telling groups of teenagers to move on. But we're living in a rapidly changing country, crime is on the increase, and gangs are killing each other in the middle of the street. Like so many other developed countries, the police are going to get guns. It's inevitable -- although maybe not desirable.

Manic Moran

stovelid wrote:

not, as the certain elements of the press would have it; open season on either Garda or the public.

Only when it gets to that stage, should we consider arming rank and file rank and file Garda.

What's "Open Season?"

One in two years? Ten? Fifteen?

NTM

stovelid

When the chance of rank and file Garda facing gunfire in the line of duty is so that they require arms, then arm them.

As it stands, the ERU is sufficient IMO.

Manic Moran wrote:

What's "Open Season?"

One in two years? Ten? Fifteen?

NTM

markk06

stovelid wrote:

When the chance of rank and file Garda facing gunfire in the line of duty is so that they require arms, then arm them.

As it stands, the ERU is sufficient IMO.

In fairness the ERU isnt sufficient... maybe there is no need to arm all gardai, but there is a number of gardai, namely detectives who face serious criminals and gunfire every day and night of the week...

Hagar

ERU, Emergency Response Unit, so they respond after the emergency has occurred. In my book that's just not good enough. The people of Ireland deserve crime prevention, not half-arsed mop-ups after the event. Followed by enquiries into why thing went tits-up the way it did.

The Gendarmerie here are armed, they go around in groups of three, nobody messes with them. There is crime, but in two years the worst I have seen is one broken bus shelter and I'm not even sure that wasn't caused by accident. That said the Gendarmerie are an integral part of the French Armed Forces. Soldiers trained as cops essentially. It so obvious and it works.

markk06

Hagar wrote:

ERU, Emergency Response Unit, so they respond after the emergency has occurred. In my book that's just not good enough. The people of Ireland deserve crime prevention, not half-arsed mop-ups after the event. Followed by enquiries into why thing went tits-up the way it did.

The Gendarmerie here are armed, they go around in groups of three, nobody messes with them. There is crime, but in two years the worst I have seen is one broken bus shelter and I'm not even sure that wasn't caused by accident. That said the Gendarmerie are an integral part of the French Armed Forces. Soldiers trained as cops essentially. It so obvious and it works.

That is the most ridiculour and narrow minded view i've ever heard
Firstly the ERU dont just go in and "mop up" after a situation.. they are involved in day to day tasks. You only hear about the one day a year when something goes wrong.... Secondly there are Gardia on the ground who are armed.. These are the detectives in every station in the country.

And for you to come out and say that the worst crime you have seen is a broken bus shelter is proposterous, you obviously live a very sheltered life over there, and if this is the case good for you. But i suggest if you want to make an opinion on this you should base it on something you know rather that just the crap you are coming out with now. Its very easy to have this opinion whilst living in an entirely different country.

Except that i would be banned for it, i would call you an idiot

gurramok

On the france point, when i was in Paris, i walked through a few times what looked like a downtrodden area, but there were cops everywhere on street corners, on the metro and not once did i feel unsafe.

Maybe a visible presence over here like that will re-assure the public?

Just to update, i live in one of those areas where the double murder happened.

Bar the morning checkpoints to jog motorists memories of the event, there have been no armed or unarmed checkpoints yet, i've travelled in the area at various times every evening and yet no joy meeting the boys in blue(or orange!)

Hopefully they are in the shadows watching the baddies

Hagar

@ markk06 - I'm sorry you can't see any validity in my post. However there is no call to abuse me.
Post Reported.

CLADA

Hagar wrote:

in two years the worst I have seen is one broken bus shelter and I'm not even sure that wasn't caused by accident. That said the Gendarmerie are an integral part of the French Armed Forces. Soldiers trained as cops essentially. It so obvious and it works.

So the anarchy on the streets of Paris last year doesn't count as crime?

Hagar

Paris isn't France, no more than Dublin isn't Ireland, no more than <insert crime ridden area> isn't Dublin.

I never said it was perfect, I just related my experience.
Are your experiences better or worse?

brianthebard

markk06 wrote:

In fairness the ERU isnt sufficient... maybe there is no need to arm all gardai, but there is a number of gardai, namely detectives who face serious criminals and gunfire every day and night of the week...

And there are armed detectives, off the top of my head the drugs squad, but perhaps other units are given guns as well. Yes the gardai are a predominantly unarmed force but that doesn't mean they are sending unarmed men against armed gangs...

Hagar

brianthebard wrote:

And there are armed detectives, off the top of my head the drugs squad, ...

All fifty of them. To man one 24 hr postion it takes 5 men to cover for holidays, sickness etc. So that amounts to an available 10 man team 24 hours a day covering a whole country of approx 4,000,000 people. That's one per 400,000 citizens. Do you feel well protected? Scary when you work it out isn't it?

CLADA

Hey Hagar! You were the one who commented on what "the people of Ireland deserve" and "the Gendarmerie here" . I just took it that you were talking about France and Ireland.

I live in a town with a population of 14000 and believe it or not I have never been the victim of a crime, but that doesn't mean the guards here are better than the guards anywhere else, you will always have crime, how its dealt with, prevented and solved has a lot to do with the community as well as the police.

We need to take a long hard look at ourselves and decide what kind of a society we want, because the one we have now is full of people with the "Something should be done about that, but not by me I don't have the time" attitude.

brianthebard

Hagar wrote:

All fifty of them. To man one 24 hr postion it takes 5 men to cover for holidays, sickness etc. So that amounts to an available 10 man team 24 hours a day covering a whole country of approx 4,000,000 people. That's one per 400,000 citizens. Do you feel well protected? Scary when you work it out isn't it?

We all know that there aren't enough guards isn't that what the reserve was set up for. Where did you get the figure fifty though? I can't see it on that page. All I know is that two of my uncles are part of it.

Edit; found it.

Under the command of a Chief Superintendent, the GNDU consists of over fifty detectives who work closely with other National and International Agencies in the fight against drug trafficking, including:

Criminal Assets Bureau
Other Garda Specialist Units
Customs National Drugs Team
Irish Navy
Regional Drug Units throughout the Country

So over fifty but presumably less than sixty and with the help of the groups mentioned. I don't know what more you expect.

Karoma

markk06 wrote:

Except that i would be banned for it, i would call you an idiot

What a cunning stunt.
Only I'd have you bitch about it, I'd ban you. (me fail English? unpossible!)


Banned. (It turns out that I enjoy people whinging.)

Talliesin

Oh come on Hagar, nowhere in Dublin gets anywhere near as many riots as Paris' suburbs.

Hagar

The greater Paris area has 10,500,000 inhabitants would you expect more problems in Paris than 2.5 times the whole of Ireland? Statistically speaking I mean.

stovelid

I always thought some detectives were armed anyway?

Can anybody verify this.

markk06 wrote:

In fairness the ERU isnt sufficient... maybe there is no need to arm all gardai, but there is a number of gardai, namely detectives who face serious criminals and gunfire every day and night of the week...

stovelid

sorry Brian, I posted the last one before I read on. I have seen an armed detective before but wasn't 100% sure if it was commonplace or what unit it was.

brianthebard wrote:

And there are armed detectives, off the top of my head the drugs squad, but perhaps other units are given guns as well. Yes the gardai are a predominantly unarmed force but that doesn't mean they are sending unarmed men against armed gangs...

Hagar

Criminal Assets Bureau
Other Garda Specialist Units
Customs National Drugs Team
Irish Navy
Regional Drug Units throughout the Country

I think they are trying very hard to give the impression that they have more assets to draw on than they really have. For instance once the drugs have got ashore and into the hands of dealers in say West Dublin the Irish navy won't be much of a help unless they can get a boat up as far as the Ninth Lock. I'd imagine the Customs National Drugs Team are targetting the actual import of drugs as opposed to the sale and distribution when the have got into the country. For technical/legal reasons they may be involved in later prosecutions but I don't really believe they are trying to track down dealers on the streets. As for the Regional Drug Units you sometimes find down the country that the designated Garda staff are also the designated Youth Liaison Officer, Firearms Officer, etc. Their time is spread rather thinly when on duty and when off duty what happens? Other specialist units? A bit vague, just filling out the list if you ask me.

The Gardaí are losing the war on crime, they are trying hard but they are totally under resourced. Give them guns and I think it will just lead to gun battles and I'm not sure the Gardaí will be well trained enough to win.

Talliesin

Paris has way more than 2.5 times as many riots as Dublin.

Hagar

Talliesin wrote:

Paris has way more than 2.5 times as many riots as Dublin.

Your math is a bit off, that 2.5 figure is comparative to the whole of Ireland not just Dublin.
City to City the ratio should be about 7 to 1. You are still correct however.

Paris and many other major cities over here have serious racial / ghetto problems, a hangover from France's colonial past no doubt. Thankfully Ireland doesn't suffer from this. That shouldn't distort the argument though regarding "other" crime and how it's handled.