So many questions re: protein

GerryRyan

Ok, I went out and bought this tub of whey protein the other day, after reading a few articles on bodybuilding.com and other sites, and chatting with friends who are big into their weight-lifting.

While I'm not looking to pack on a huge amount of mass/muscle (main sports are canoeing and middle distance running) the general message I've been getting is that a supplement can't hurt.
I'm using this month as a kind of trial run to see if I notice any gains, increases in fitness or endurance etc from using the whey.

But I have a load of questions:

1) When is the best time to use it? Morning and night, pre and post workout, or just a drink with every meal?

2) On the mixing? Is it best just to mix with water or skimmed milk, or are there any decent shakes I can make? (I have a blender btw)

3) I tried one of the fitness calculators on bb.com

Protein Recommendations
Early Health Department Recommendation:
Each Day You Should Take In 155 Grams Of Protein.

So, 1gram per lb of body-weight. Is that just a general guideline?
But that's not telling me much on how to space that out etc.

4) Lastly, I've started off small enough with a 2lb tub - how long should that last me if I'm using it properly?

Sorry if this has been covered before, but after having a scan through the stickies etc I couldn't find the info.

tribulus

It's just whey, take it after a workout to get amino's into your blood quickly and help with protein synthesis and recovery.

Any gains as such will be in the vaaast majority from proper nutrition, rest and training.

What I'm trying to say is don't expect anything much to happen with it. Maybe you'll have less soreness after a workout from taking it, it will help in getting extra calories in but other than that it's down to your training etc.

You could use it as a replacement for a meal but ideally you should get whole food into you as much as you can. Post workout is an ideal time for it, preferably with water.

Also some people mix it with milk before bed as the casein in milk slows down the wheys absorption.

Space the protein out evenly throughout the day, 5-6 meals a day so ~30g protein each meal, e.g a scoop or two of whey, a chicken breast, a tin of tuna.

How long it will last is down to how much/often you use it.

Say you have a scoop after a workout (say 3times a week) and before bed every night another scoop. Thats 10 scoops a week. Roughly 30g in a scoop so 300g a week of whey.

900g roughly in 2lb tub so in this case you'd get 3 weeks out of it.

justsomebloke

ThatGuy wrote:

1) When is the best time to use it? Morning and night, pre and post workout, or just a drink with every meal?

truthfully this depends on your diet. Most of your protein should be coming from food (remember it is only a supplement) so generaly if you have porridge / museli have it with that unless you have eggs/meat aswell with your breakie. Other then that maybe before bed with some milk.

The best use for Whey though is as part of a post workout shake. So have some simple sugars and a shake with water as soon as you can after your workout

ThatGuy wrote:

2) On the mixing? Is it best just to mix with water or skimmed milk, or are there any decent shakes I can make? (I have a blender btw)

generally water especially post workout. If you mix it with milk it is slower to be digested. Just remember whey will start to dinature after around 30-40 minutes so don't pre mix your shakes

ThatGuy wrote:

3) I tried one of the fitness calculators on bb.com

Protein Recommendations
Early Health Department Recommendation:
Each Day You Should Take In 155 Grams Of Protein.

So, 1gram per lb of body-weight. Is that just a general guideline?
But that's not telling me much on how to space that out etc.

try to space it out evenly thorugh out the day, you should be having protein in every meal, so 155/6 which is approx 26g per meal (based on 6 meals a day)

tribulus

beat ya to it jsb

justsomebloke

*shakes fist at tribulus*

I probabbly started writing it before you it is just my brain is on a go slow after a weekend on the piss in newcastle followed by our flight being cancelled and then havng to get another flight to belfast and the get the bus down to dublin

GerryRyan

jsb wrote:

I probabbly started writing it before you it is just my brain is on a go slow after a weekend on the piss in newcastle followed by our flight being cancelled and then havng to get another flight to belfast and the get the bus down to dublin

And after all that you took the time to reply to my post - I feel loved

Thanks for the info guys.

So, starting tomorrow morning - I'll have a serving along with the usual breakfast (weetabix, 2 bananas, glass of milk etc).
Then before and after workout (longish run). Then before bed.

Does that sound right?

turbot

My sisters boyfriend is in better shape than most movie stars, and has even done some underwear modelling.

He also has a masters degree in sports science and has never taken steroids.

His take on protien powders is that the field is unregulated, so the stated ingredients often don't correlate with the actual ingredients.

For that reason, he says if you want protein, drink a few raw and organic eggs, because at least you know what you are getting.

g'em

turbot wrote:

My sisters boyfriend is in better shape than most movie stars, and has even done some underwear modelling.

He also has a masters degree in sports science and has never taken steroids.

Well my Da used to body double for Sylvester Stallone and he's 9ft and he's hyooooge and he eats three raw chickens every morning but he says I shouldn't lift anything heavier than a milk carton coz I'll start to look like him but then that'd be great too coz we could both body double for Sly :rolleyes:

Seriously though, who mentioned anything about steroids? We're talking about protein. For the gazillionth time, whey protein is from curds and whey, the by-product of milk processing, that's all. By taking it in powder form all you're doing is getting a highly concetrated pure protein source. Companies differ in QC of course, but it is a regulated field. One of the posters here works with Nutrtition X, one of the Irish protein manufaturing companies, and I'm sure he'd be only too happy to go into great detail about the consituents of his products.

Oh and I teach Biology at University- are those credentials ok??

Dragan

turbot wrote:

My sisters boyfriend is in better shape than most movie stars, and has even done some underwear modelling.

Cool, next time i need someone to stand around in a pair of cacks i will give him a shout.

turbot wrote:

He also has a masters degree in sports science and has never taken steroids.

I now a good few guys who did this course ( i assume it was the one is UL ) sure, it's a qualification but just like anything else it only applies to the person himself, not to his girlfriends brother/sister.

And good for him for not taking steroids. I have never taken steroids either. Inf act, the majority of people have never taken steroids. I think we should wear t-shirts or someting. With that and our love of underwear we have SO much in common.

turbot wrote:

His take on protien powders is that the field is unregulated, so the stated ingredients often don't correlate with the actual ingredients.

Untrue and even if it was...... Fiats make a pretty poor smaller car, does this mean i should not buy an Opel? Or, to put it in more funny terms, lots of PT's are terrible, does this mean no one should hire your sisters boyfriend?

turbot wrote:

For that reason, he says if you want protein, drink a few raw and organic eggs, because at least you know what you are getting.

To be honest, someone on a high protein diet might not want to get all their protein needs from eggs, and should also look at lean meats, fish and even veg and grains with good amino acid profiles.

Finally, none of the above is a shot at your sisters boyfriend, i'm sure he a nice chap and works hard. However, second hand advice is rarely helpful, and it's best to tailor answers based on the question asked, and not just pass on what you heard your sisters boyfriend talking about?

Out of interest turbot, do you train yourself?

trollybus

turbot wrote:

My sisters boyfriend is in better shape than most movie stars, and has even done some underwear modelling.

He also has a masters degree in sports science and has never taken steroids.

His take on protien powders is that the field is unregulated, so the stated ingredients often don't correlate with the actual ingredients.

For that reason, he says if you want protein, drink a few raw and organic eggs, because at least you know what you are getting.

I would question his qualifications if he is using raw eggs as a source of protein.

Degsy

trollybus wrote:

I would question his qualifications if he is using raw eggs as a source of protein.

What does "better shape than most movie stars" mean?Better shape than Jack Nicholson?Tom Arnold?Tom Hanks?Surely not better shape than Marlon Brando?And what has underwear modelling got to do with knowledgability of protein?If you want expert advice on a subject its necessary to talk to an expert,not somebody who knows it all by proxy.

GerryRyan

Ok ... em, that went off topic fairly quickly. One last questions guys nd gals. Is there a problem with taking the drink (I'm just gonna mix with water now btw) a good while after mixing it or is it best to mix and drink after training?

Last night I mixed if according to the label - 1 scoop per 5 oz water (1 serving). So, I mixed 3 scoops and 15 oz water. Gave it a good shake up, left it in fridge over night, shook it up again in the morning, took a serving along with breakfast, then again after training.

Taking last serving before bed tonight.

Is that alright?

mloc

ThatGuy wrote:

I mixed 3 scoops and 15 oz water. Gave it a good shake up, left it in fridge over night, shook it up again in the morning...
...Is that alright?

Hmmm... I'd try not to mix it longer than 15 minutes before you use it, if it can be helped. The protein in dry form is relatively stable, but it starts to degrade when in liquid, which means it won't be as much use to you. This is even more important when your protein powder contains digestive enzymes, as many do.

coyote6

I used to add it to orange juice which tasted pretty good. I defer to the scientists to advise if this was a good mix.

I'm more on the mesomorphic side and find that if going heavy and using protein supplements required more cardio. Finding the magic balance betwixt too much or too little is pretty individualized.

Oh... Make sure you add a charcoal filter to your underpants because all that protein makes you.... shall we say... combustable.:D

walt0r

The farts do be poppin' outta me like wildfire. I have usually 3 gainer shakes a day which equates to nearly 2,000,000Cals. Yes, oh yes, prepare yourself by enlarging your underwear drawer.
On a more serious note, this is news to me about the protein losing its value when premixed. I always premix my shakes because it saves me time in the mornings and such, but mostly because the shake tastes better when cold. I guess I'll have to start buying refigerated bottles of water for mixing from now on. Woop.

TerrorFirmer

walt0r wrote:

. I have usually 3 gainer shakes a day which equates to nearly 2,000,000kCal.

Leon11

whats wrong with small fiats dragan! lol

rubadub

walt0r wrote:

but mostly because the shake tastes better when cold. I guess I'll have to start buying refigerated bottles of water for mixing from now on. Woop.

I have one of those mix blenders from dunnes, the ones you see on the TV at night. I put in milk or water and some ice cubes. It froths and blends it really well and comes out really cold since the ice is pulverised.

http://fritrust.en.ec21.com/GC01286576/CA01286666/Magic_Bullet(Kitchen,Kitchenware,TV_Item,Tableware,Food....html

I have plain whey and use pineapple juice, or milk and tesco strawberry milkshake mix.

His take on protien powders is that the field is unregulated, so the stated ingredients often don't correlate with the actual ingredients.

For that reason, he says if you want protein, drink a few raw and organic eggs, because at least you know what you are getting.

How is it unregulated? it is not some oddball looney drug field like somepeople would like to make out. Whey is a dairy product just like cheese, butter, skim milk powder. If you bother to read ingredients on food you buy you will notice whey is used in many recipies. I cannot imagine it is anymore "unregulated" the the alleged "organic" market.
If that food product is "unregulated" then surely the majority are or what is this "regulation" really preventing?

Dragan

Leon11 wrote:

whats wrong with small fiats dragan! lol

I don't fit in them

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

rubadub

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Just like the mythological dealers that give out free heroin in kindergarten playgrounds!

Its to get you hooked! don't you know everybody who eats milk protein separated from the milk will end up on steroids. Don't you listen to Tony Ward and Gerry Ryan? dem boys knowz der stuff. If only they had left the protein in the the milk all would be OK :rolleyes:

turbot

Degsy wrote:

What does "better shape than most movie stars" mean?Better shape than Jack Nicholson?Tom Arnold?Tom Hanks?Surely not better shape than Marlon Brando?And what has underwear modelling got to do with knowledgability of protein?If you want expert advice on a subject its necessary to talk to an expert,not somebody who knows it all by proxy.

What does physical results have to do with knowledge of protien?
- Well, in my opinion, what he is doing, is working and he's been dedicated for long enough to have researched many things thoroughly.

Why is this relevant?
- Well, despite many people having theoretical knowledge, in terms of fitness and especially bodybuilding, theory is only useful if it works in practice. What he's doing obvious works in practice.

So I asked him exactly what he does and he says:

Each day before work he has:

4 free range egg whites
1 banana
soy milk

Mixed in a blender

Sometimes he also has this same mix within an hour after working out.

He also said that, based upon what he knows, most of the protein powders are not as good as they claim, and to be wary of marketing hype.

What qualifies him, in my opinion, to be a good source of information on this stuff? Well, firstly, as my sisters boyfriend, and a good friend of mine, I trust him. Secondly, of all the people I know in person, he's probably in the best shape:

See for yourself:

http://www.hypnosis.to/tshape/t_ripped.jpg

I'm sharing what he has to say, because I personally believe it works, and I believe that you'll get better results if you workout smarter and harder.

g'em

turbot wrote:

See for yourself:

He's skinny. Seriously. Tell him to pack on another 20lb of lean mass and I might listen to what he says about protein and looking good. And he's wearing girl's leggings. And there's something really wrong with his face

Meh, I wouldn't trust a man like that :rolleyes:

Dragan

Once again turbot, without meaning to sound rude or anything, as I'm sure he's a nice chap, and he obviously has a very low level of bodyfat….the simple fact of the matter is that he is not big.

I'm not sure what his weight is, or what his protein needs would be but the simple fact is that whey is a very useful tool to use for adding size. As I said before, but you seem to have ignored, is that yes some companies make poor products, but this is the same as any industry. Three companies that make fantastic products are Nutrition-X, Reflex and Optimum Nutition.

Now then, I'm sure a whey shake would not help as much as listening to a motivational CD but…..;)

justsomebloke

Also are cooked eggs not better for you then raws eggs due to the bioavailability of the protein, that and the slight chance of samonella associated with raw eggs

g'em

jsb wrote:

Also are cooked eggs not better for you then raws eggs due to the bioavailability of the protein, that and the slight chance of samonella associated with raw eggs

yes

Dragan

But raw eggs make you seem so hard core!!!!!

g'em

yeah, until someone posts a picture of you on the net in girly trackie bottoms... :rolleyes:

trollybus

turbot wrote:

What does physical results have to do with knowledge of protien?
- Well, in my opinion, what he is doing, is working and he's been dedicated for long enough to have researched many things thoroughly.

Why is this relevant?
- Well, despite many people having theoretical knowledge, in terms of fitness and especially bodybuilding, theory is only useful if it works in practice. What he's doing obvious works in practice.

So I asked him exactly what he does and he says:

Each day before work he has:

4 free range egg whites
1 banana
soy milk

Mixed in a blender

Sometimes he also has this same mix within an hour after working out.

He also said that, based upon what he knows, most of the protein powders are not as good as they claim, and to be wary of marketing hype.

What qualifies him, in my opinion, to be a good source of information on this stuff? Well, firstly, as my sisters boyfriend, and a good friend of mine, I trust him. Secondly, of all the people I know in person, he's probably in the best shape:

See for yourself:

http://www.hypnosis.to/tshape/t_ripped.jpg

I'm sharing what he has to say, because I personally believe it works, and I believe that you'll get better results if you workout smarter and harder.

If you are trying to give weight to your argument I would strongly suggest you don't post up a picture of a skinny kid with zero muscle. The funny thing is if he trained properly and eat correctly he might actually look good!
You never answered my question earlier so here we go again, how is he planning on absorbing all of that protein from raw eggs?

t-ha

turbot wrote:

What does physical results have to do with knowledge of protien?
- Well, in my opinion, what he is doing, is working and he's been dedicated for long enough to have researched many things thoroughly.

I wouldn't agree, it takes a long time to isolate something that is working/isn't working, so when it comes to practical experience I would sooner take the word of someone who has been working out a long time & made real strides towards a physique that I would like. That guy is very ripped & the last thing I want to do is be one of those internet warrior guys that rips on other peoples pics, but I looked pretty much like that about 7/8 months after I started serious training (and I started out as a weakling fat-ass). I also used whey.

Like I say, I'm not trying to drag the guy down, but his physique is achievable with a minimum of resistance training and a low enough bodyfat. The more muscle you pack on to a frame the harder it becomes to progress further, so while the physique in that pic is achievable for most people within a year if they focus on that goal completely, a more built physique is a completely different story. People who have attained that will tend to know more about what works/doesn't work because they will have had to have figured out how to get through several plateau's on their way up. Virtually all of these people use protein supplements.

turbot wrote:

Why is this relevant?
- Well, despite many people having theoretical knowledge, in terms of fitness and especially bodybuilding, theory is only useful if it works in practice. .
.
.

... I believe that you'll get better results if you workout smarter and harder.

I agree with all the above, however when it comes to picking people to listen to I go to myself, first & foremost, and then people who have made significant progress.

rubadub

turbot wrote:

He also said that, based upon what he knows, most of the protein powders are not as good as they claim, and to be wary of marketing hype.

Thats advertising for you, I think only a fool believes everything that is claimed by ads, take everything with a pinch of salt.

I think he looks pretty good, he is not huge by any means, but I certainly would not call him skinny, unless you are just referring to bodyfat. Most of the replies are from serious bodybuilders, I wonder if they are spending too long in gyms or looking at mags/sites with big brawny men and have a skewed idea as to what is normal. Saying he is skinny is like saying a 6ft 2" guy is not tall, "I have seen basketball players who are 7ft".

The guy is obviously bigger than the average guy, I go swimming a fair bit and most guys with a similar bodyfat are tiny! little whippets. Woody allen is skinny, stephen merchant (the lanky guy in the office and extras) is skinny.

trollybus

rubadub wrote:

Thats advertising for you, I think only a fool believes everything that is claimed by ads, take everything with a pinch of salt.

I think he looks pretty good, he is not huge by any means, but I certainly would not call him skinny, unless you are just referring to bodyfat. Most of the replies are from serious bodybuilders, I wonder if they are spending too long in gyms or looking at mags/sites with big brawny men and have a skewed idea as to what is normal. Saying he is skinny is like saying a 6ft 2" guy is not tall, "I have seen basketball players who are 7ft".

The guy is obviously bigger than the average guy, I go swimming a fair bit and most guys with a similar bodyfat are tiny! little whippets. Woody allen is skinny, stephen merchant (the lanky guy in the office and extras) is skinny.

Out of curiosity what is his height and weight? If you can find out we can figure out his BMI, i would guess it is about 21 or so

t-ha

rubadub wrote:

I think he looks pretty good, he is not huge by any means, but I certainly would not call him skinny, unless you are just referring to bodyfat. Most of the replies are from serious bodybuilders, I wonder if they are spending too long in gyms or looking at mags/sites with big brawny men and have a skewed idea as to what is normal.

Whether or not you think he looks good or normal is besides the point. His build is easily achievable by most people & does not make him an authority on what supplements to use/not use to build muscle.

rubadub

t-ha wrote:

Whether or not you think he looks good or normal is besides the point. His build is easily achievable by most people & does not make him an authority on what supplements to use/not use to build muscle.

I totally agree with you!, my earlier posts were questioning his opinions. I see no reason why protein production would be any more "unregulated" than any other dairy product (including organic eggs).

turbot

I'm not sure what his weight is, or what his protein needs would be but the simple fact is that whey is a very useful tool to use for adding size. As I said before, but you seem to have ignored, is that yes some companies make poor products, but this is the same as any industry. Three companies that make fantastic products are Nutrition-X, Reflex and Optimum Nutition.

Dragan - in terms of UK supplement manufacturers, the only one I'm aware of that has ISO 9001 quality control certification is Reflex.

BTW, the guy in the photo, years ago said that Reflex was the way to go if I wanted to get a protein power! AFAIK, Reflex offer a pretty solid money back guarantee on their products also.

I wouldn't agree, it takes a long time to isolate something that is working/isn't working, so when it comes to practical experience I would sooner take the word of someone who has been working out a long time & made real strides towards a physique that I would like. That guy is very ripped & the last thing I want to do is be one of those internet warrior guys that rips on other peoples pics, but I looked pretty much like that about 7/8 months after I started serious training (and I started out as a weakling fat-ass). I also used whey.

Like I say, I'm not trying to drag the guy down, but his physique is achievable with a minimum of resistance training and a low enough bodyfat. The more muscle you pack on to a frame the harder it becomes to progress further, so while the physique in that pic is achievable for most people within a year if they focus on that goal completely, a more built physique is a completely different story. People who have attained that will tend to know more about what works/doesn't work because they will have had to have figured out how to get through several plateau's on their way up. Virtually all of these people use protein supplements.

T-Ha - it would be ridiculous for me to attempt to disprove your subjective opinion of how achieveable his physique is, even if I completely disagree with you. This same guy has been training very hard for 8 years - not with the intention of becoming huge, but instead, athletically versatile. He's got pretty strong opinions in this area, and even wrote a thesis on "Bigorexia"

I also think you're right - if his physique is not what you're aiming for, then advice from him isn't so appropriate for you.

Out of curiosity what is his height and weight? If you can find out we can figure out his BMI, i would guess it is about 21 or so

Well I asked him and showed him the thread. He's 6ft exactly and 75kg.

He said he trains athletically - for speed and sustained high intensity for martial arts / boxing. So for training, he often runs 2 miles in under 10 minutes.... he also said he can bench 120kg 4 reps and 135kg 1 rep.

Whether or not you think he looks good or normal is besides the point. His build is easily achievable by most people & does not make him an authority on what supplements to use/not use to build muscle.

T-Ha: I never said he was an authority... though in a field where most magazines are fueled by advertising agendas, and most "sponsored" pro bodybuilders are paid for endorsements they probably wouldn't give if they weren't paid, various alledged "authorities" may not be as credible and trustworthy as they are presented.

The guy who wrote "Burn the fat, feed the muscle" ( http://www.burnthefat.com/ ) said he was offered two different journalism / editorial jobs with leading bodybuilding magazines, which he resigned from when he discovered their editorial policy was if they thought a product from their advertisers was good, they'd rave about it, and if they thought a product was crap, instead of saying it was crap, they wouldn't publish their opinion.

Not only this, but sometimes what works can be counter-intuitive. As the saying goes "The map is not the territory". Just because something makes sense scientifically, doesn't mean it will work in practice, or that the scientific models in any one persons head accurately represent what is actually going on.

I totally agree with you!, my earlier posts were questioning his opinions. I see no reason why protein production would be any more "unregulated" than any other dairy product (including organic eggs).

Organic certification is very difficult to achieve and maintain btw, so much so that many smaller producers who strive to be organic can't afford to be.

Without decent quality control or certification, how do you know what you are actually getting other than trusting the spiel on the box?

If you think that standard food regulations are enough to ensure quality, then please can you explain where Kentucky Fried chicken sources chickens that have virtually no bone structure, and are the same size as a computer mouse?

If you want a good summary of factory farming, check this out:

http://www.themeatrix.com/

With particular relevance to bodybuilding, many people who endorse products do not use the same products. I think this is immoral.

If you think "awards" guarantee quality, I have another friend who is a professional cheese buyer, and travels throughout Europe purchasing expensive cheeses. She told me that some cheese companies regularly pay high entry fees to award ceremonies where every product is given some kind of award; meaning that the worst products will be given a bronze award.

Do you think supplement companies will present an unbiased case for their products, or tell you what you need to hear such that you want to buy from them?

This might help you make up your mind:

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2005/07/xenadrine.htm


The moral of the story is don't believe the hype, and be careful who you listen to, especially if you want to achieve results.

And if someone is achieving results you want to achieve, and they have your best interests at heart, chances are they will give you better advice than someone else who's agenda it is to sell you something.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

rubadub

turbot wrote:

Dragan - in terms of UK supplement manufacturers, the only one I'm aware of that has ISO 9001 quality control certification is Reflex.

I have worked with ISO for about 7 years now, producing the quality manuals and procedures for companies and auditing. Many people seem to think ISO somehow means that products will be of a high quality. It means no such thing, it means a company has procedures and tests in place. So if a company has a procedure saying they build to a poor quality, e.g. 50% failure rate is acceptable, then this is perfectly fine! they pass the ISO standard, since they are doing exactly what they say. It is intended to be put in place to ensure quality but you state your own opinion as to what the quality is.

turbot wrote:

Organic certification is very difficult to achieve and maintain btw, so much so that many smaller producers who strive to be organic can't afford to be.

Without decent quality control or certification, how do you know what you are actually getting other than trusting the spiel on the box?

What I was getting at is that I do not see any reason for whey powder to be any more "unregulated" than say skim milk powder or other food stuffs. As for organic stuff I would not trust that it was, especially in farmers markets, get some tesco value spuds and a bag of peat moss and charge 10 times the price for dirty veg. It is easy to have things in place when inspectors etc call around. It is very easy to mix in a bit of "non-organic" feed in with the organic stuff the chickens usually get.
If there are regulations etc in place then all companies should follow them, with ISO or not. Most external ISO auditors are not fully aware of what is really needed and can be talked around, or numbers fudged. ISO really is to help the company be organised internally, and it is a marketing tool, seems to work as many are ignorant as to what it is and fall for the "quality" bit in its title.

If a protein powder says 80% per 100g on the pack, I would presume it is lower, they have fudged the figures, just like how McDonalds fudge the figures and their food has more calories than quoted. Just like car manufacturers fudge figures to have higher milers per gallon, batteries rarely have the mAh rating that they claim.

turbot wrote:

Do you think supplement companies will present an unbiased case for their products, or tell you what you need to hear such that you want to buy from them?

The moral of the story is don't believe the hype, and be careful who you listen to, especially if you want to achieve results.

As I was saying earlier just don't believe advertising, take everything with a pinch of salt. I do not expect to be huge after 10 weeks using brand X, just as I do not expect women to be flocking around me after spraying on some lynx.

justsomebloke

rubadub wrote:

I have worked with ISO for about 7 years now, producing the quality manuals and procedures for companies and auditing. Many people seem to think ISO somehow means that products will be of a high quality. It means no such thing, it means a company has procedures and tests in place. So if a company has a procedure saying they build to a poor quality, e.g. 50% failure rate is acceptable, then this is perfectly fine! they pass the ISO standard, since they are doing exactly what they say. It is intended to be put in place to ensure quality but you state your own opinion as to what the quality is.

The problem with this is it's true, The ISO standard is what ever you want it to be. e.g. reflex maybe ISO accredited but it may have gotten the ISO standard from having a computer filing sytem in place

rubadub wrote:

just as I do not expect women to be flocking around me after spraying on some lynx.

arse, well that was a waste of money for all those cans then wasn't it

trollybus

rubadub wrote:

I have worked with ISO for about 7 years now, producing the quality manuals and procedures for companies and auditing. Many people seem to think ISO somehow means that products will be of a high quality. It means no such thing, it means a company has procedures and tests in place. So if a company has a procedure saying they build to a poor quality, e.g. 50% failure rate is acceptable, then this is perfectly fine! they pass the ISO standard, since they are doing exactly what they say. It is intended to be put in place to ensure quality but you state your own opinion as to what the quality is.

Rubadub, I completely agree with you people seem to think ISO is the be all and end all. I think they should be more concerned about HACCP and EFSIS standards if they are talking about food stuffs.



What I was getting at is that I do not see any reason for whey powder to be any more "unregulated" than say skim milk powder or other food stuffs. As for organic stuff I would not trust that it was, especially in farmers markets, get some tesco value spuds and a bag of peat moss and charge 10 times the price for dirty veg. It is easy to have things in place when inspectors etc call around. It is very easy to mix in a bit of "non-organic" feed in with the organic stuff the chickens usually get.
If there are regulations etc in place then all companies should follow them, with ISO or not. Most external ISO auditors are not fully aware of what is really needed and can be talked around, or numbers fudged. ISO really is to help the company be organised internally, and it is a marketing tool, seems to work as many are ignorant as to what it is and fall for the "quality" bit in its title.

If a protein powder says 80% per 100g on the pack, I would presume it is lower, they have fudged the figures, just like how McDonalds fudge the figures and their food has more calories than quoted. Just like car manufacturers fudge figures to have higher milers per gallon, batteries rarely have the mAh rating that they claim.

I agree and disagree with your above statement. If a company is getting teir products contract manufactured chances are the labeling may be off as the labeling onus will fall on the manufacturer not the supplement company. However there are a few supplement companies that make their own products, if you look at them you will see these companies are not the ones making the outragious claims.



As I was saying earlier just don't believe advertising, take everything with a pinch of salt. I do not expect to be huge after 10 weeks using brand X, just as I do not expect women to be flocking around me after spraying on some lynx.

I take on board what you are saying about Lynx but what about old spice, I reckon a few splashes of that and you'll never get me off the surf board

t-ha

turbot wrote:

T-Ha - it would be ridiculous for me to attempt to disprove your subjective opinion of how achieveable his physique is, even if I completely disagree with you. This same guy has been training very hard for 8 years - not with the intention of becoming huge, but instead, athletically versatile. He's got pretty strong opinions in this area, and even wrote a thesis on "Bigorexia"

I also think you're right - if his physique is not what you're aiming for, then advice from him isn't so appropriate for you.

Hey turbot, I understand that his goals may not include becoming very muscular, which is why I stayed away from saying that he was too skinny or looked bad or whatever. I have no doubt that he looks exactly the way he wants to & has the dedication to maintain it.

My point was that someone at that level of development won't neccessarily know/appreciate the important things when it comes to building muscle because he doesn't need to. If he decided one day (a bit unlikely if he takes the time to write a thesis on bigorexia) that he wanted to put on 80lbs of additional lean mass on to his frame and got started into it, he might well find that some of his views/ideas would need to change.

It's the same as someone looking to increase their competition bench press weight. Should they listen to someone who benches 80kg or someone who benches 200kg, given contradictory advice? Even if their goal is nowhere near a 200kg bench, that guy would still be the best option because no-one benches that weight without hitting plateaus and finding ways to work through them, whereas many people can get up to 80kg without any significant problems.

Well thought out post, by the way, & as I mentioned I completely agree about finding what works in real life. Theories and mechanisms are one thing, but the actual quantified effect is key.

@rubadub, sorry my other post came across a little short.

Degsy

t-ha wrote:

many people can get up to 80kg without any significant problems.

Damn,it was a big problem for me!