"high end" audio

Idleater

Well, if it is going to be a first post, then it might as well be useful, or at the very least somewhat related to the forum.

So, I am wondering if there are many "high end" audio equipment owners about here. The problem I am finding is when reading AVForums, they go on about autitioning but that is something that is very slow to take off in this country.

I know Peats have the new Yamaha amps (eventually) and I have been out to Cloney Audio in Blackrock to look at the arcam avr350, but I find the whole audio scene quite limited.

I think more in terms of home demo's etc as I have pointed out, this stuff is becoming more available in the shops.

L.

Sparky

I sent away for a demo DVD from B&W a while back. They send me a disc with some 5.1 DTS tracks of music by Peter Gabriel at a live concert and some other classical music songs by other artists.

I was very impressed by the sound from the Peter Gabriel concert.

Also included in the dvd was a showcase of the design and preformace of the 800 series.

Idleater

Interesting idea. I presume you are supposed to test the dvd on their speakers???

Sparky-s wrote:

Also included in the dvd was a showcase of the design and preformace of the 800 series.

mmmmm the 800's are beauties!

L.

mossym

their 600's sound pretty good too...

course i'm biased:D

Idleater

mossym wrote:

their 600's sound pretty good too...

I gather that, and they are in my price range.

I am going to test them and the System Audios together and then pick one (pair).

These will be for my two Front's - ie, good stereo speakers for when I am listening "pure direct".

Any other recommendations either way?

L.

mossym

which of the 600 series are you looking at?

Idleater

mossym wrote:

which of the 600 series are you looking at?

603's

mossym

ah my favorites...what i have obviously..but not the perfect thing for you i wold think..if it is stereo you are after, the 604's are a better beast. I preferred the 603 with a kick ass subwoofer, but for 2 speaker vs 2 speaker the 604's are what i would go for..course they are more money..

padi89

Auditioning is great and a very important factor in choosing your setup.The problem is, that its never going to sound the same at home as what it does in the shop.Listening rooms are purpose built but at home room acoutics are greatly affected by placement,floor type,furniture etc.Still though you should still be able to get great sound out of a good home setup.
Have a look at superfi too, if you see something you have auditioned prices are miles better thatn here.http://www.superfi.co.uk/,not exactly high end but still pretty good.

Sponge Bob

also note the importance of staging, eg with a good system the sound appears to come from a position or location in 3d, try to use the first RATM CD to see what I mean when auditioning a system.

a high end system is quite astonishing , you can tell witha good mix who is standing in front of the others !

B&W are not high end and never were these lil beauties are and will move from flat to house with aplomb. and last years.

Tannoy always produced better speakers than B&W at the same price point so if you do not believe e me try to test them against each other with the same amp and same 3 or 4 cds .

amps are subjective , try the cyrus maybe .

mossym

Sponge Bob wrote:

also note the importance of staging, eg with a good system the sound appears to come from a position or location in 3d, try to use the first RATM CD to see what I mean when auditioning a system.

a high end system is quite astonishing , you can tell witha good mix who is standing in front of the others !

B&W are not high end and never were these lil beauties are and will move from flat to house with aplomb. and last years.

Tannoy always produced better speakers than B&W at the same price point so if you do not believe e me try to test them against each other with the same amp and same 3 or 4 cds .

amps are subjective , try the cyrus maybe .

audio is subjective...if (and i presume ratm is rage against the machine) ratm is your demo material, do you think you are listening for the same quality in speakers as someone listening to say mozart?

not arguing with you about what is high end and not high end...that's the beauty of audio...it's totally subjective...to one person a pair of 100 euro speakers may sound better tahn a 1000 euro pair...

i demoed my b&w's against a lot of differnt makes..in my price point, nothing matched the b&w's for detail...all depends what you are looking for..

btw, not picking an arguement, just a funny for thought...George lucas has b&w 8 series speakers installed in his ranch...ya think he reckons they are high end?

Sparky

Well if you really want high end, you could always go for the meridian range.

(if you have money to burn)

Sponge Bob

but do look up staging or "soundstaging" chaps, its the way that instruments are separated and yet blended when the time is right and is really important in high end, it defines high end almost.

RATM happens to have an astonishing dynamic range (as do audioslave) and Killing in The Name Of will make the hair stand up on your neck when you have found the right system to express its dynamic range and soundstaging.

Mozart is a different kettle of fish , Nouvelle Vague is an interesting substitute in a way ...precisely because there is no dynamic range

Make sure the same 4 or 5 reference CDs go to each amp/speaker test is my key advice , you want to see which interpretation of the data is what you want and what suits you .

Kell

nereid wrote:

603's

Good choice. I have them with an ancient Pioneer player and a Copland CSA8 integrated amp.

Cables are important. I have a set of Nordost blue heaven interconnects & I have bi-wired the speakers. They are reasonably inexpensive tweaks but they really do make a difference.

By the way, if you put down a reasonable deposit, Cloney will let you take a component home for a few days to demo it in your own system. I was out there the other night and they had a pair of 16k martin logan electrostatics on demo. Awesome. Pure awesome. As close to sonically perfect as I have ever heard.

K-

mossym

Kell wrote:

By the way, if you put down a reasonable deposit, Cloney will let you take a component home for a few days to demo it in your own system. I was out there the other night and they had a pair of 16k martin logan electrostatics on demo. Awesome. Pure awesome. As close to sonically perfect as I have ever heard.

K-

apart form that, they must be one of the best looking speakers on the planet

Idleater

mossym wrote:

apart form that, they must be one of the best looking speakers on the planet

Beautiful indeed...

Kell

nereid wrote:

Beautiful indeed...

They also have a second hand €35,000.00 Krell CD player for sale. POA.

K-

PS- no. I dont work for Cloney. They are just the best around IMEO

dak

I have tried various different speakers and amps over the years. I have to say the best i got were the bose acustimas 5 's from Peats . I had to listen to all my CD's again as I heard sounds that were inaudible with the old Celestian 7's. First speakers that ever sounded as good at home as in the shop. If I was you I would spend more on the speakers than the amp.

Sponge Bob

I have a Plinius SA-250 amp which cannot be bought in Ireland as far as I know. Its 10 years old now but was a notable Krell Killer in its day .

It weighs a ton and sounds best after its been left on for 24 hours A Beast in every sense. I would have to hump it up to Cloney to test against new speakers if I wanted an upgrade.

3 or 4 year old audiophile amps can cost maybe 20%-30% of the new cost but the amps should go forever and are a great investment at the price. It cost about £700-£800 in 2001 and is a 1997 model .

mossym

dak wrote:

I have tried various different speakers and amps over the years. I have to say the best i got were the bose acustimas 5 's from Peats . I had to listen to all my CD's again as I heard sounds that were inaudible with the old Celestian 7's. First speakers that ever sounded as good at home as in the shop. If I was you I would spend more on the speakers than the amp.

i think that's the first time i ever heard the words bose and good in the same sentence, but as long as it works for you...

Idleater

mossym wrote:

i think that's the first time i ever heard the words bose and good in the same sentence, but as long as it works for you...

I don't think Bose are Good...

mossym

ha point taken...but you got my meaning all the same..:)

turbot

If you have some cash to spend on hifi, then the smart thing to do is:

1) Get old hifi magazines - say 10 years old

2) Figure out what amplifiers / speakers / turntables got the best sound and best reviews then

3) Buy really high quality ones on Ebay for 1/5 of the original price

4) Combine with best of breed modern DACs / surround decoders

Really well built hi-end hifi lasts for ages, and the technology and principles of design have not moved forward that much.

My father has a rotel amp that is 30 years old and still sounds good. Principles of amplification have not moved on - and in many cases, mass production techniques have reduced the quality of some components during this time.

Please note this principle doesn't apply to surround sound decoding, the newer generations of which are obviously much better for cheaper. New high end DACs that a good quality are probably a good idea too.

So I'm a proud owner of some Mission 753s.

Connected with my 20kg Kenwod 9010 amp, my REL Stadium sub, Cambridge Audio Dac Magic II DAC and/or my arcam DV88 the sound is *gorgeous*. Like it's literally distractingly brilliant and uplifting.

And it's nice to walk around places like Peats, and what I hear for Audio (not so much surround) isn't really on par with what I have at home.

So instead of spending 3000 euros on kit in PEATS, you should spend the same and get stuff that would have cost 9000 stg a decade ago.

I found this out because as a teenager I used to read hi-fi magazines - it was a hobby. All the stuff I wanted then but couldn't afford, I can buy for much much less now.

The hi end stuff will probably last another decade and still sound great.

mossym

two things need to be said here...this is all exellent advice, but is not what you need to be following if you want surround sound for movies, turbot hit the nail on the head there, the new receivers handle all the newer processing algorithms, surround sound formats, room eq, all the beuolls and whistles. As brains for a HT setup, the newer stuff can't be beat..for reproduction of quality sound for music, i.e. stereo, then this is all excellent advice. of course you could always use one of the amps mentioned to drive your mains in a home theare setup, feeding the amp from the pre-amps of a new receiver..now that's a nice setup

and secondly, investing in high end audio isn't worth your time or money if your music collection consists of mp3's ripped at 128kbps...mp3's must be the biggest plague on high end audio ever..not that i don't ahve them, i just don't listen to anything less than lossless on my main system if i can at all help it

Idleater

mossym wrote:

two things need to be said here...this is all exellent advice, ...

Excellent advice indeed.

I am in two minds so to speak.

One idea is to get something like the Arcam AVR350 or a Yamaha RXV2700 modern reciever/processor, one box, does the lot.

The second idea is to buy something like the Arcam AV700 Pre/Pro, which does the video switching and audio decoding (exactly like the recievers above) and feed 1 3 input amplifier and 1 2 input amplifier.

In theory, the second is the better and I could get the amps from a few years back cheap on fleabay and buy the new PrePro, but then there are three boxes and the interconnects and and and and and...

L.

dak

mossym wrote:

i think that's the first time i ever heard the words bose and good in the same sentence, but as long as it works for you...

What would you say is Good then ?:)

padi89

turbot wrote:

If you have some cash to spend on hifi, then the smart thing to do is:

1) Get old hifi magazines - say 10 years old

2) Figure out what amplifiers / speakers / turntables got the best sound and best reviews then

3) Buy really high quality ones on Ebay for 1/5 of the original price

4) Combine with best of breed modern DACs / surround decoders

Really well built hi-end hifi lasts for ages, and the technology and principles of design have not moved forward that much.

My father has a rotel amp that is 30 years old and still sounds good. Principles of amplification have not moved on - and in many cases, mass production techniques have reduced the quality of some components during this time.

Please note this principle doesn't apply to surround sound decoding, the newer generations of which are obviously much better for cheaper. New high end DACs that a good quality are probably a good idea too.

So I'm a proud owner of some Mission 753s.

Connected with my 20kg Kenwod 9010 amp, my REL Stadium sub, Cambridge Audio Dac Magic II DAC and/or my arcam DV88 the sound is *gorgeous*. Like it's literally distractingly brilliant and uplifting.

And it's nice to walk around places like Peats, and what I hear for Audio (not so much surround) isn't really on par with what I have at home.

So instead of spending 3000 euros on kit in PEATS, you should spend the same and get stuff that would have cost 9000 stg a decade ago.

I found this out because as a teenager I used to read hi-fi magazines - it was a hobby. All the stuff I wanted then but couldn't afford, I can buy for much much less now.

The hi end stuff will probably last another decade and still sound great.

Thats all good and well if you know what your exactly looking for.Audio sytems are very subjective so its a bit of a gamble picking random components you havent ever heard without knowing if they will even compliment each other well or suit your needs.Basing your choice on magazine reviews should only be used as a guide at most not for a buying decision.At the end of the day what sounds good for you is the one to get.

mossym

dak wrote:

What would you say is Good then ?:)

athena, B&w, klipsch polk, paradigm

keep in mind i lved in the states when i auditioned all the above..and i ended up buying the b&w's

bose just do not have a good name among anyone who has compared them to something else,,,for good reaon, they don't match up..

check out bose on www.avsforum.com, or www.avforums.com

they've great marketing, for me though the product just doesn't match it

but like i said above, if they are the best sounding to you, that is all that matters

mossym

padi89 wrote:

Thats all good and well if you know what your exactly looking for.Audio sytems are very subjective so its a bit of a gamble picking random components you havent ever heard without knowing if they will even compliment each other well or suit your needs.Basing your choice on magazine reviews should only be used as a guide at most not for a buying decision.At the end of the day what sounds good for you is the one to get.

aye, the advantage of demoing is not to be over estimated, but if you can hear one of the old systems and still get a good deal...perfect

Sponge Bob

nereid wrote:

One idea is to get something like the Arcam AVR350 or a Yamaha RXV2700 modern reciever/processor, one box, does the lot.

Arcam AVRs are great all in one amps or home cinema decoder/preamps . I have an old AV50 (not avr50) I use as a doorstop too.

turbot

I agree that it's smart to audition a system, but in practice, this can be very hard to achieve, unless one hi-fi shop has all the exact components in store you intend to combine, and even then, they can't take into account the accoustics, etc, of your room.

So you are as well off knowing your stuff, and knowing what to look for.

If you bought 3k's worth of kit from a place like Peats, vs, spending the same amount of money, using the process I described, on ebay, there would be no comparison, and the Ebay System would sound so immensely better, the music would really come to life.

For example: I saw someone sell a speaker set that I would have bought if I had space and needed it consisting of Mission 754freedoms (originally 1500stg) for front speakers, Mission 752 freedoms (for rear speakers, originally 580stg) Mission 75c centre speaker (originally 250stg), and a pair of Mission 750LE's (originally 280stg). They were all immaculate and perfect (because owners of this stuff tend to look after it) and came with high end speaker cable (worth 200stg+). All this kit was about 8 years old. Adjusting for inflation and exchange rate conversion and generally higher Irish prices, to get equivalent sound for something in Ireland you'd need to pay 5 or 6 thousand euros.

He sold the lot for..... 625stg.

It's true you need modern decoding - so lets say you purchase a Yamaha DSP A1 - Surround Amp - and theres one on ebay right now that will probably sell for 350stg (and retailed for 1600stg 3-4 years ago). I'd predict that this would comfortably outperform any of the amps in peats. That's modern enough....

*Or*

For music listening, you could get an audiolab pre amp + two monoblocs, and probably get this kit for 700stg. (again, this would have originally cost 2500+), and would sound amazing, even, uber amazing.

On top of this, you need a CD / DVD for home cinema... and possibly a good dac, and since you'll probably need to purchase this stuff in the UK, maybe some transport costs, or some time to take the ferry and bring it back.

Work this process through and literally, you could end up with a better sound than 12,000 euros could buy you, for less than 3,000.

If you're into hi-end hifi, then you're probably interested in sound, so if you're prepared to do the research it's worth it.

Red Alert

The only really great Bose products that come to mind are the Bose 102 PA speakers which knock the socks off the crap that's installed in most commercial establishments, and their Wave Radio.

I second the point about MP3's!

Cmar-Ireland

I'm thinking about getting a set of either 5.1 or 7.1 Acoustic Energy Aelites. Seem to have great reviews everywhere I read.
Currently I have a Mission Cinema 6 pack. A few years old now, but it too got great reviews. The amp is a Sony STR-DB940 great for 5.1 but would need something newer for 7.1

Would it be good to try pick up a set of Mission 753f's and use them as fronts and use my current cinema 6 pack as surrounds?

ruaneg

Some good advice ...2nd hand is the way to go if youre starting off in Hifi. You can always swap components to get the best match and sell them on ebay for minimal loss or even profit.

I went through loads of equipment all bought through ebay till I found the right blend.

As said before, speakers are NO1 when were talking serious sound. Invest your money in a good pair as theyre awkward to swap etc... 5-10 year old speakers are usually in good nick and you can get them for a steal on ebay.

Id say an equivalent cost hifi from 10 years ago would sound as good as one now.

Supposed advances are often overated. Getting the right blend is the most important thing.

Also if youre anyway adventurous you can go the DIY route. 2 of my amps are DIY and sound incredible:cool: to my ears.