Éire - a faux pas?

tbh

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

you do know it was called that because it rhymes with "bank manager" don't you ?

éire is the official name of the state,
then again our neighbours seem to have problems distingishing UK/BG/England and regularly using one to describe another.

This year, I've been to Italia , Suomi, Deutchland and Espania.

see how that works?

simple. If you are speaking English, it's Ireland. If you are speaking Irish, it's Eire

Dyr

Talliesin wrote:

The faux pas element comes from differences in nuance between what the speaker is trying to say and what the listener hears.

Some British speakers say "Éire" thinking "I am using the correct name for their country and hence being respectful".

Some Irish listeners hear "Éire" and think "S/he is using the correct Irish language name for my country because the correct English language form is 'Ireland' which is also the name for the entire island and they don't want to concede that we may have a legitimate claim to the occupied six counties."

I'm using the phrase "occupied six counties" as there is a correlation between how likely the Irish person in question is to use that term and how likely they are to infer such a sentiment behind a British person using the word "Éire" as above.

Actually, the difference here is that Johnny England thinks it's respectful and correct to use "Éire". Seany Eireann, however, think's yer man is harking back to the pre repubbalick days when Éire was the name and get's mebbed. I think there probably was a time when "dem across de water" didnt like saying "republic of ireland" so used "Éire" or "the south"

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Thirdfox

I like the name Eire, it makes our language more local in my opinion. (However the official name of the country in English is Ireland).

Kwekubo

Thirdfox wrote:

I like the name Eire, it makes our language more local in my opinion. (However the official name of the country in English is Ireland).

I don't think anyone's suggesting that you shouldn't use the name Éire when you're speaking Irish, just that it doesn't make sense to use it when speaking English.

smemon

it's insulting - yes.

it means people aren't informed about the country and think they're saying it the REAL irish way (the way irish people say it).

But in fact, that is not the way we say it.

why does everything have to be so complicated? why can't we just kill Irish an have english. Black and white. Then our kids aren't confused and neither are foreigners.

considering like .0001% of Irish people speak fluent Irish on a daily basis, it should be dumped.

upthere

Ireland has many beautiful women so exotic and what a sexy language it has. Look at those women at the bus stop eating crisps and complaining she didn't like that guy coz he had spots.
Look at this generous nation filled with compensation claims for people who didnt even know the car behind hit them until they were told by the poor fool driving the tailgating car in traffic jam.
Look at the superpower with an excellent nuclear emergency plan of iodine tablets.
Look at our slim nation.
Look at our good looking nation.

Now, what I can't stand is Ireland constantly being termed with British, we are the best country in the world. We don't need eastern european women, irish women are too slim and nice looking.

COP on! Thank god im gettin outa this sh(thole in 2 months! This country is depressing!

upthere

This country is just the remnants of and ireland where loads of people emigrated from and were regarded as subhuman in america, then the Irish in New York murdered blacks to prove they were Just like the white americans from different european countries.
Now Ireland has money and people are hungry and ruthless!! They are ignorant to other nations and ignorant to other nationalities!
This country focuses excessively on national pride when other than saint patricks day and maybe all this stuff about it being the most IT literate country what is there??
Not much.
Yeah I'm a pessimist and that's my view. Most people complain about optimism sometimes on this board.

upthere

Irish language is like Scottish, and I don't particularly like either culture. It's full of conflict for NO reason that makes sense. Only the accents are disgusting!

CerebralCortex

upthere wrote:

Irish language is like Scottish, and I don't particularly like either culture. It's full of conflict for NO reason that makes sense. Only the accents are disgusting!

It's clear you are hurting about being Irish like I do when I see how my fellow country men deal with their psychological problems through excessive drug abuse(drinking).

upthere

If there was another world war, the "luck of the irish" b)llux wont save us! What country would defend us? Even the polish have a proper military and their average IQ is a lot higher than Ireland, plus they were religiously proper enough to have a pope, imagine a dirty toothless man from here being a pope! Insult!"

An Ginearál

This country is just the remnants of and ireland where loads of people emigrated from and were regarded as subhuman in america, then the Irish in New York murdered blacks to prove they were Just like the white americans from different european countries.
Now Ireland has money and people are hungry and ruthless!! They are ignorant to other nations and ignorant to other nationalities!
This country focuses excessively on national pride when other than saint patricks day and maybe all this stuff about it being the most IT literate country what is there??
Not much.

If there was another world war, the "luck of the irish" b)llux wont save us! What country would defend us? Even the polish have a proper military and their average IQ is a lot higher than Ireland, plus they were religiously proper enough to have a pope, imagine a dirty toothless man from here being a pope! Insult!"

I can just sense the pride in being Irish from both of you...

why does everything have to be so complicated? why can't we just kill Irish an have english. Black and white. Then our kids aren't confused and neither are foreigners.

considering like .0001% of Irish people speak fluent Irish on a daily basis, it should be dumped.

Get your facts straight for one, there are well over 300,000 fluent speakers of Irish in Ireland, with over 1,000,000 having good knowledge of the language, which represents 1/4 of the total population, a far cry from 0.0001%! There are also approximately 25,000 speakers of Irish in the US, just to give you an idea of how many speak it outside of Ireland, with many universities and night-schools, particularly in UK and Germany offering Irish courses. Irish is also taught as an optional school subject in Australia.
And to make it clear, in black and white, of the importance of the Irish language, it is the official language of the Republic of Ireland, English is just a secondary language recognised by the state. And it's not confusing for tourists, it's why tourists come here, especially American who love seeing Irish during their visits. Also, Irish will become an official EU language from January 2007, allowing any fluent MEP's to speak as Gaeilge and for official EU documents to be made available through Irish.
Another thing, people like Michael Collins, Pádraig Pearse and Éamon de Valera, who btw did their part and risked their lives for your freedom today which your're obviously so ungreatful for judging by your British influence, would be spinning in their grave if they knew people like you were so negative about what is part of our identity and what forms part of our culture which attracts so many tourists from around the world each year, which if we didn't have, our economy would be screwed because its the biggest industry in the country.

Glad to see you see something that is such an important asset to this country, is a waste of time. As far as I'm concerned, people like yourself who moan and complain about Irish, are just wasters who couldn't be bothered to learn the language.

MrJoeSoap

I'm aware you weren't replying to me, but I'm going to reply to your post anyway.

An Ginear&#225 wrote: »

there are well over 300,000 fluent speakers of Irish in Ireland, with over 1,000,000 having good knowledge of the language

Primarily because it is forced upon us at school.

An Ginear&#225 wrote: »

There are also approximately 25,000 speakers of Irish in the US, just to give you an idea of how many speak it outside of Ireland

I would assume the vast majority of these are emigrants who learned it in Irish schools.

An Ginear&#225 wrote: »

And to make it clear, in black and white, of the importance of the Irish language, it is the official language of the Republic of Ireland, English is just a secondary language recognised by the state.

As well as the language that the vast majority of Irish people use every day. It's the language you typed your message in. Making Irish the primary language of our country is a token gesture with absolutely no relevance in practice.

An Ginear&#225 wrote: »

Another thing, people like Michael Collins, Pádraig Pearse and Éamon de Valera, who btw did their part and risked their lives for your freedom today which your're obviously so ungreatful for judging by your British influence, would be spinning in their grave if they knew people like you were so negative about what is part of our identity and what forms part of our culture

Its part of our history, but that is about it. I don't speak Irish, and haven't done so since school. Its not a part of my culture. The reason I will learn another language, should I choose to do so, is to enable myself to communicate with other people who I otherwise couldn't. I don't reckon I'll ever meet someone who can speak Irish but not English.

An Ginear&#225 wrote: »

Glad to see you see something that is such an important asset to this country, is a waste of time. As far as I'm concerned, people like yourself who moan and complain about Irish, are just wasters who couldn't be bothered to learn the language.

I learned the language, not by choice but because I was forced to. Did quite well in my Irish exams and was delighted that I wouldn't have to study it again.

Thirdfox

Oh by the way English is an official language in Ireland (we have two official languages) - check the constitution (Article 8.2). The only situation where Irish is more important than English (from a legal viewpoint) is when you have a clash between the English and Irish version of laws, the Irish meaning is taken to be correct.

Thirdfox

Kwekubo wrote:

I don't think anyone's suggesting that you shouldn't use the name Éire when you're speaking Irish, just that it doesn't make sense to use it when speaking English.

But we don't speak English English, we speak Irish English (just like Americans speak American English) - we can incorporate parts of our ethnic language into the primary language...

I personally wouldn't be offended if someone said Éire when referring to Ireland (in fact I would be quite pleasantly surprised that they knew some Irish). Then again I'm not what you would deem "normal" Irish I suppose (naturalised immigrant)

cooker3

An Ginear&#225 wrote: »

Also, Irish will become an official EU language from January 2007, allowing any fluent MEP's to speak as Gaeilge and for official EU documents to be made available through Irish.

The EU have many ways of wasting money over the years, this is 1 of the worst examples, such a waste of money.

Flex

An Ginear&#225 wrote: »

I can just sense the pride in being Irish from both of you...



Get your facts straight for one, there are well over 300,000 fluent speakers of Irish in Ireland, with over 1,000,000 having good knowledge of the language, which represents 1/4 of the total population, a far cry from 0.0001%! There are also approximately 25,000 speakers of Irish in the US, just to give you an idea of how many speak it outside of Ireland, with many universities and night-schools, particularly in UK and Germany offering Irish courses. Irish is also taught as an optional school subject in Australia.
And to make it clear, in black and white, of the importance of the Irish language, it is the official language of the Republic of Ireland, English is just a secondary language recognised by the state. And it's not confusing for tourists, it's why tourists come here, especially American who love seeing Irish during their visits. Also, Irish will become an official EU language from January 2007, allowing any fluent MEP's to speak as Gaeilge and for official EU documents to be made available through Irish.
Another thing, people like Michael Collins, Pádraig Pearse and Éamon de Valera, who btw did their part and risked their lives for your freedom today which your're obviously so ungreatful for judging by your British influence, would be spinning in their grave if they knew people like you were so negative about what is part of our identity and what forms part of our culture which attracts so many tourists from around the world each year, which if we didn't have, our economy would be screwed because its the biggest industry in the country.

Glad to see you see something that is such an important asset to this country, is a waste of time. As far as I'm concerned, people like yourself who moan and complain about Irish, are just wasters who couldn't be bothered to learn the language.

Well said

Ponster

An Ginear&#225 wrote: »

I can just sense the pride in being Irish from both of you...



Get your facts straight for one, there are well over 300,000 fluent speakers of Irish in Ireland, with over 1,000,000 having good knowledge of the language

Hmmm, I take it your're gatting those figures from the last census ?

While I can't disprove them I do find them a little large based on my travels in the country. Does 1 in 4 or so people really understand the language?

Dr_Teeth

Look it's pretty freakin' simple lads. When you're speaking English, you don't say 'Deutschland' or 'España' or 'Sverige' or 'Éire'. You say 'Germany', 'Spain', 'Sweden', 'Ireland'. This isn't a difficult concept surely.

An Ginearál

Primarily because it is forced upon us at school.

I hear this statement all the time by people who are anti-Irish, and it's a rediculous one. I could easily make the same arguement about English, it was forced on me as a child, as I would much rather now be able to speak fluent Irish than fluent English, though preferably I'd like to speak both fluently, Irish at home, and using English in the workplace if it was necessary and when going abroad. I was denied the chance to be fluent in Irish by the government because the ciriculum is completely based around English. If Irish shouldn't be forced upon people, then what about having to learn a European language for the Junior Cert, or having to learn English for both the Junior and Leaving Cert? Why should these remain compulsory?

I would assume the vast majority of these are emigrants who learned it in Irish schools.

Not necessarily, a lot of them would have learnt it through evening classes, and a lot of them would have had Irish ancestors and they may have wanted to study the language.

As well as the language that the vast majority of Irish people use every day. It's the language you typed your message in. Making Irish the primary language of our country is a token gesture with absolutely no relevance in practice.

I could've quite easily have written my reply as Gaeilge, but would you have understood it and have been able to reply to it?...
Irish was at one stage the primary language that all government business was conducted through but over the past couple of decades, pretty much every Taoiseach after de Valera, it has been neglected, but I'm confident that will change over time.

Its part of our history, but that is about it. I don't speak Irish, and haven't done so since school. Its not a part of my culture. The reason I will learn another language, should I choose to do so, is to enable myself to communicate with other people who I otherwise couldn't. I don't reckon I'll ever meet someone who can speak Irish but not English.

Yes because English has been forced on people for the past few decades and Irish no longer has as strong a presence as it did. Theres more interest in it than ever before, but theres nowehere near the amount that were fluent in it. See how I can make the same arguement about English?!

I learned the language, not by choice but because I was forced to. Did quite well in my Irish exams and was delighted that I wouldn't have to study it again.

So when you were being sent to a school at the age of 4 or 5, you chose to go to a school that operated through English? Give me a break...

Capt'n Midnight

Dr_Teeth wrote:

Look it's pretty freakin' simple lads. When you're speaking English, you don't say 'Deutschland' or 'España' or 'Sverige' or 'Éire'. You say 'Germany', 'Spain', 'Sweden', 'Ireland'. This isn't a difficult concept surely.

But not a lot of use if you are over there looking for directions.
Most of the names we use are archaic. How you react if some one asked for directions to Kingstown ?

IIRC Newfoundland is the only place in the Americas that has it's own name in Irish , the rest be translitterations.

Catari Jaguar

On Nickelodeon the presenters always said "if you're calling from Eire"... it annoys me!! So is the north "Ireland" then? Bollix! Thats Northern Irelnad. We're ROI. Not Eire. Unless you're speaking as Gaeilge of course

smemon

the reason im not a fan of the irish language is because;

it's a waste of money trying to save it as it will die anyway
nobody speaks it in modern Ireland naturally (you think before you speak irish because normally you'll only use it to show off, confuse people or use it as 'look at me, i'm more irish than you sort of way'.

the internet will chainsaw the fingers off all the languages hanging on with one hand - ie minority language like irish.

people have more to learn/take in nowadays than they did years ago. There is more pressure on people so they couldn't be arsed learning a language from scratch, especially when they don't need it for anything.

uni's don't regard it as a proper language.

i spent 6 years learning irish poetry and stories :rolleyes: time well spent obviously, as i can't name an irish poet or poem from the one's i 'studied' :rolleyes:

i've nothing against irish speaking people - but i do have a problem with the government and the way irish is taught.

why doesn't government have the balls to have a referendum - which one gets it? Irish or English. We dump the one with the lowest votes.

It will save us all money, time and give our children more room in their heads for valuable information/languages.

atm it's a financial burden, like aer lingus of years ago, or CIE.. it should be dumped as the majority of people don't want it, need it or use it.

*smemon for taoiseach/prime minister as i would have it change to

Kwekubo

Thirdfox wrote:

But we don't speak English English, we speak Irish English (just like Americans speak American English) - we can incorporate parts of our ethnic language into the primary language...

I personally wouldn't be offended if someone said Éire when referring to Ireland (in fact I would be quite pleasantly surprised that they knew some Irish). Then again I'm not what you would deem "normal" Irish I suppose (naturalised immigrant)

Which Ireland do you mean though, the republic or the island? The word can of course mean both. Some people however use Éire as if it doesn't mean the exact same thing as Ireland, they use it to refer to the republic only. I take that as a little insulting, I know it's usually not meant to offend but it comes across as if they're implying the Irish language is only relevant to the republic and not to Northern Ireland.

slipss

Back on topic no I don't consider a foreigner using the term Eire a faux-pas, many dignitaries will refer to a foreign nation in its native toungue when spaeking to them as a sign of respect. To show while it would be impractical try to address them and speak to them fully in their own language, saying the name of a country in its native language at least shows they are making some kind of an effort, its common practice. I have some Dutch associates and when I speak to them I say Nederland instead of Holland(which they really don't like) or the Netherlands and they appreciate the sentiment. Same goes for me when they say Eire instead of Ireland, its not really proper when they are speaking English to me and say Eire, but likewise I appreciate that they are just making an effort.

generalmiaow

smemon wrote:

i spent 6 years learning irish poetry and stories :rolleyes: time well spent obviously, as i can't name an irish poet or poem from the one's i 'studied' :rolleyes:

I can't remember how to solve quadratic equations either, so yeah, let's have a referendum to take maths out of Ireland too.

You're being ridiculous. Just because you don't know anyone who speaks Irish doesn't mean we don't exist. I also happen to think we should teach proper Polish and Chinese to whoever wants it too. It's a eurocentric idea that people only speak one language. In the majority of the world's countries people know more than one language natively. I met an African bus driver who could speak 11 languages fluently. Even in the USA there is knowledge of this fact. Whatever about compulsory Irish in schools, we don't need a referendum to enforce our ignorance.

As for the topic of the thread, I couldn't care less if someone called Ireland Éire. It's like when UK people called the Irish pound "punts" when none of us really used that in regular speech. In fact, fair play to them for giving a damn about what the country is called and researching ahead. I'd edit the wikipedia article myself to remove "patronising" and "insult" (since it's unsourced anyway) but I don't want to start an edit war on another website.

Thirdfox

Kwekubo wrote:

Which Ireland do you mean though, the republic or the island? The word can of course mean both. Some people however use Éire as if it doesn't mean the exact same thing as Ireland, they use it to refer to the republic only. I take that as a little insulting, I know it's usually not meant to offend but it comes across as if they're implying the Irish language is only relevant to the republic and not to Northern Ireland.

In the Constitution it states that the name of this country is Ireland (or Eire as Gaelige) - since the constitution only applies to the "republic" of Ireland I would suppose that the term "Ireland" or "Eire" refers to only the republic of Ireland.

I wouldn't take it as implying that Irish is only spoken in the 26 counties... just that the official name of our country (as stated in our Constitution) is Ireland or Eire... Of course everyone has different views which must be taken into account.

smemon

generalmiaow wrote:

I met an African bus driver who could speak 11 languages fluently.

it obviously hasn't helped him much if he's a bus driver

you see, with the big 1st world nations speaking english - US, UK, Australia and all of europe bascially fluent in it, there is no financial benefit to learning another language.

English is the language of business, the language where all the big bucks are made.

I believe people should perfect one language to the extreme rather than learn 11 just for the sake of being able to put it on your CV.

The fact he told you/spoke all 11 languages shows he's using them to boost his image in your eyes. exactly my point about Irish also.

look at the way people submit planning permission in Irish just to be sly about it. It's used as a weapon to rise above the man next door imo.

generalmiaow

smemon wrote:

it obviously hasn't helped him much if he's a bus driver

you see, with the big 1st world nations speaking english - US, UK, Australia and all of europe bascially fluent in it, there is no financial benefit to learning another language.

English is the language of business, the language where all the big bucks are made.

I believe people should perfect one language to the extreme rather than learn 11 just for the sake of being able to put it on your CV.

The fact he told you/spoke all 11 languages shows he's using them to boost his image in your eyes. exactly my point about Irish also.

look at the way people submit planning permission in Irish just to be sly about it. It's used as a weapon to rise above the man next door imo.

You seem to be able to understand a person's motivations pretty well for someone who's never met them. The 400 million or so who speak English as a first language (out of SIX BILLION) doesn't mean we should abandon all the others, and the idea that the internet is going to kill them off for us is unproven and unfounded.

Thirdfox

Chinese FTW... most spoken language as a first language...

大家都学中文吧！:D