Éire - a faux pas?

Goodshape

Just having a quick look through Wikipedia's international List of faux pas (which is quite interesting anyway). One of the Irish entries is :

"Referring to the Republic of Ireland as Éire: although this is the official title of the state in the Irish language, it is considered an irksome and patronizing term used only by the English, though usually well-intentioned. Simply refer to the country as "Ireland" or "the Republic of Ireland"."

Personally, I quite like the name 'Éire' and certainly wouldn't consider it an irksome term or a faux pas. It might cause me to do a slight double-take, but only because it's not too often you hear it, maybe not often enough imo.

Is that just me? What do others think?

Matthewthebig

afaik my mum dislikes the name Éire.

mike65

*shakes head*

This must be the nth thread on this in the last 6 months.

Mike.

flogen

Well referring to it as Éire in an English sentence isn't really logical; the constitution states 'the name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland'... so I'd say 'I'm from Ireland' rather than 'I'm from Éire.'

I wouldn't call it a faux pas, just mis-informed. Is it annoying? Not really (there was a thread about this before).
But it would be like saying 'I have a friend from Sasana' or 'I have a friend from Angleterre' (that is the french for England, isn't it?)

Ruu_Old

It doesn't bother me either way.

My head hurts, I'm going for a lay down.

Tabnabs

"an irksome and patronizing term used only by the English, though usually well-intentioned. Simply refer to the country as "Ireland" or "the Republic of Ireland".

I couldn't have put it better myself. A pet hate of mine.

Goodshape

mike65 wrote:

*shakes head*

This must be the nth thread on this in the last 6 months.

Mike.

Oops. Must have missed them :-/

shane86

Load of bollix some of those apparent mistakes. Anyone with sense knows the British Isles is a geographical term, like the Iberian penninsula or Eurasia. Add some real ones, like if your from abroad dont complain about how much we drink. That one gets me.

MrJoeSoap

Its just a word, use it if you want.

Wishbone Ash

flogen wrote:

Well referring to it as Éire in an English sentence isn't really logical;

Agree - almost as annoying as referring to our former legal tender as the "punt" when speaking in English.

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

robinph

Wikipedia wrote:

# The Republic of Ireland shares many faux pas in common with the United Kingdom, many of which are listed below under the title United Kingdom.
# Treating Ireland as a subcategory or special case of the United Kingdom, rather than as a separate country, as is done in the previous line, is considered offensive by many Irish people.

MrJoeSoap

Genius, sounds like Uncyclopedia tbh! ^

Goodshape

The Scientist wrote:

If it offends you that much then Change it. Thats what wikipedia is for.

T.Sc.

Well, maybe I'll wait and see what the majority of people here think about it. Who am I to dictate what is or is not considered a faux pas by the masses?

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Agree - almost as annoying as referring to our former legal tender as the "punt" when speaking in English.

Ah now, that is clearly the most logical way of differentiating it from the British Pound (or sterling).

When we still used the Punt, heading into the north and asking "do you take the Punt?" was a lot more convenient than "do you take the Irish Pound?"

I'd accept that using Éire when speaking English is unwarranted though. But maybe more of a sign of respect to our differences than an sort of insult or derogatory term.

MrJoeSoap

The word Éire always reminds me of the number 32, and the phrase "Tiocfaidh ár lá" for some bizarre reason.

Hobbes

In Korea when I was pointing out where Ireland was on the map for my in-laws they said Eire. The missus kept saying "no its Ireland", but they said it in a good Irish accent. Gotta love those phonetic languages.

mickd

Eire is the official name for Ireland under the constitution. Its on your passport Can't see the problem with this Gaelic term for Ireland unless you have some sort of inferiority complex and don't like English people using it. Now if they used the term 'Free State' thats different.

An Ginearál

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Agree - almost as annoying as referring to our former legal tender as the "punt" when speaking in English.

It's called Hiberno-English, i.e. the dislect of English mostly spoken in Ireland, whereby certain words from the Irish language are used when speaking English, such as 'punt' and 'craic'.
In saying that though, I wouldn't say Éire when speaking in English, only in Irish. But I don't see it as offensive, particularly coming from an English person, as it shows they have some respect for our national language, unlike most Brits who consider it nothing more than the 'leprachaun language'.

flogen

mickd wrote:

Eire is the official name for Ireland under the constitution. Its on your passport Can't see the problem with this Gaelic term for Ireland unless you have some sort of inferiority complex and don't like English people using it. Now if they used the term 'Free State' thats different.

As I said above, it's actually Éire or Ireland in the English language.
See article 4

For whatever reasons I got a bit annoyed when English people would call Ireland Southern Ireland, in order to differenciate it from Northern Ireland, but that's another story all together.
It's not a faux pas, no-one should get annoyed about it but it's illogical to use it in an English sentence.

looksee

An Ginear&#225 wrote: »

... unlike most Brits who consider it nothing more than the 'leprachaun language'.

Do you have a source for that 'fact' ? :rolleyes:

An Ginearál

looksee wrote:

Do you have a source for that 'fact' ? :rolleyes:

Yes, it is a common known fact that 63.7% of the British population consider the Irish language the 'Leprachaun language'.
Of course I don't have a bloody source for it:rolleyes: . It's the impression I've gotten from a lot of the British people I've talked to and some articles written by British journalists. That said though, I've gotten a similar attitude from some Irish people too.

Goodshape

looksee wrote:

Do you have a source for that 'fact' ? :rolleyes:

It's an opinion expressed on a message board, not a fact.

":rolleyes:"

faceman

I prefer Eire to Ireland. It demonstrates our different culture while being part of the British Isles.

mike65

Oh Noes! :eek:

Mike.

Steyr

shane86 wrote:

like if your from abroad dont complain about how much we drink. That one gets me.

The British and Germans are in the top 3 in most alcohol consumed druing the year not us.

Capt'n Midnight

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Agree - almost as annoying as referring to our former legal tender as the "punt" when speaking in English.

you do know it was called that because it rhymes with "bank manager" don't you ?

éire is the official name of the state,
then again our neighbours seem to have problems distingishing UK/BG/England and regularly using one to describe another.

pvt. joker

I'm adding one to the US's list:

when you encounter an american outside of his/her homeland do not assume that is ok to discuss politics. Chances are that he/she just wants to relax and have a few beers as opposed to engaging in a lengthy political debate in a small pub 3000 miles away from home

Talliesin

The faux pas element comes from differences in nuance between what the speaker is trying to say and what the listener hears.

Some British speakers say "Éire" thinking "I am using the correct name for their country and hence being respectful".

Some Irish listeners hear "Éire" and think "S/he is using the correct Irish language name for my country because the correct English language form is 'Ireland' which is also the name for the entire island and they don't want to concede that we may have a legitimate claim to the occupied six counties."

I'm using the phrase "occupied six counties" as there is a correlation between how likely the Irish person in question is to use that term and how likely they are to infer such a sentiment behind a British person using the word "Éire" as above.

Ponster

In France, Éire is used almost everytime that a reference to the Republic is made, esp. in sporting events.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

mike65 wrote:

*shakes head*

This must be the nth thread on this in the last 6 months.

Mike.

i know.... not again please,

MADPhil

Remember those wonderful sketches called "Pathetic News" on Brendan Balfe's radio show on Saturdays a few years back? I think it was Joe Taylor who did the voice. They always referred to "Eire" and it's hard to hear it now without thinking about those shows.

P.S. For future reference, how do you type a fada on here?

tbh

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

you do know it was called that because it rhymes with "bank manager" don't you ?

éire is the official name of the state,
then again our neighbours seem to have problems distingishing UK/BG/England and regularly using one to describe another.

This year, I've been to Italia , Suomi, Deutchland and Espania.

see how that works?

simple. If you are speaking English, it's Ireland. If you are speaking Irish, it's Eire

Dyr

Talliesin wrote:

The faux pas element comes from differences in nuance between what the speaker is trying to say and what the listener hears.

Some British speakers say "Éire" thinking "I am using the correct name for their country and hence being respectful".

Some Irish listeners hear "Éire" and think "S/he is using the correct Irish language name for my country because the correct English language form is 'Ireland' which is also the name for the entire island and they don't want to concede that we may have a legitimate claim to the occupied six counties."

I'm using the phrase "occupied six counties" as there is a correlation between how likely the Irish person in question is to use that term and how likely they are to infer such a sentiment behind a British person using the word "Éire" as above.

Actually, the difference here is that Johnny England thinks it's respectful and correct to use "Éire". Seany Eireann, however, think's yer man is harking back to the pre repubbalick days when Éire was the name and get's mebbed. I think there probably was a time when "dem across de water" didnt like saying "republic of ireland" so used "Éire" or "the south"

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Thirdfox

I like the name Eire, it makes our language more local in my opinion. (However the official name of the country in English is Ireland).

Kwekubo

Thirdfox wrote:

I like the name Eire, it makes our language more local in my opinion. (However the official name of the country in English is Ireland).

I don't think anyone's suggesting that you shouldn't use the name Éire when you're speaking Irish, just that it doesn't make sense to use it when speaking English.

smemon

it's insulting - yes.

it means people aren't informed about the country and think they're saying it the REAL irish way (the way irish people say it).

But in fact, that is not the way we say it.

why does everything have to be so complicated? why can't we just kill Irish an have english. Black and white. Then our kids aren't confused and neither are foreigners.

considering like .0001% of Irish people speak fluent Irish on a daily basis, it should be dumped.

upthere

Ireland has many beautiful women so exotic and what a sexy language it has. Look at those women at the bus stop eating crisps and complaining she didn't like that guy coz he had spots.
Look at this generous nation filled with compensation claims for people who didnt even know the car behind hit them until they were told by the poor fool driving the tailgating car in traffic jam.
Look at the superpower with an excellent nuclear emergency plan of iodine tablets.
Look at our slim nation.
Look at our good looking nation.

Now, what I can't stand is Ireland constantly being termed with British, we are the best country in the world. We don't need eastern european women, irish women are too slim and nice looking.

COP on! Thank god im gettin outa this sh(thole in 2 months! This country is depressing!

upthere

This country is just the remnants of and ireland where loads of people emigrated from and were regarded as subhuman in america, then the Irish in New York murdered blacks to prove they were Just like the white americans from different european countries.
Now Ireland has money and people are hungry and ruthless!! They are ignorant to other nations and ignorant to other nationalities!
This country focuses excessively on national pride when other than saint patricks day and maybe all this stuff about it being the most IT literate country what is there??
Not much.
Yeah I'm a pessimist and that's my view. Most people complain about optimism sometimes on this board.

upthere

Irish language is like Scottish, and I don't particularly like either culture. It's full of conflict for NO reason that makes sense. Only the accents are disgusting!

CerebralCortex

upthere wrote:

Irish language is like Scottish, and I don't particularly like either culture. It's full of conflict for NO reason that makes sense. Only the accents are disgusting!

It's clear you are hurting about being Irish like I do when I see how my fellow country men deal with their psychological problems through excessive drug abuse(drinking).

upthere

If there was another world war, the "luck of the irish" b)llux wont save us! What country would defend us? Even the polish have a proper military and their average IQ is a lot higher than Ireland, plus they were religiously proper enough to have a pope, imagine a dirty toothless man from here being a pope! Insult!"

An Ginearál

This country is just the remnants of and ireland where loads of people emigrated from and were regarded as subhuman in america, then the Irish in New York murdered blacks to prove they were Just like the white americans from different european countries.
Now Ireland has money and people are hungry and ruthless!! They are ignorant to other nations and ignorant to other nationalities!
This country focuses excessively on national pride when other than saint patricks day and maybe all this stuff about it being the most IT literate country what is there??
Not much.

If there was another world war, the "luck of the irish" b)llux wont save us! What country would defend us? Even the polish have a proper military and their average IQ is a lot higher than Ireland, plus they were religiously proper enough to have a pope, imagine a dirty toothless man from here being a pope! Insult!"

I can just sense the pride in being Irish from both of you...

why does everything have to be so complicated? why can't we just kill Irish an have english. Black and white. Then our kids aren't confused and neither are foreigners.

considering like .0001% of Irish people speak fluent Irish on a daily basis, it should be dumped.

Get your facts straight for one, there are well over 300,000 fluent speakers of Irish in Ireland, with over 1,000,000 having good knowledge of the language, which represents 1/4 of the total population, a far cry from 0.0001%! There are also approximately 25,000 speakers of Irish in the US, just to give you an idea of how many speak it outside of Ireland, with many universities and night-schools, particularly in UK and Germany offering Irish courses. Irish is also taught as an optional school subject in Australia.
And to make it clear, in black and white, of the importance of the Irish language, it is the official language of the Republic of Ireland, English is just a secondary language recognised by the state. And it's not confusing for tourists, it's why tourists come here, especially American who love seeing Irish during their visits. Also, Irish will become an official EU language from January 2007, allowing any fluent MEP's to speak as Gaeilge and for official EU documents to be made available through Irish.
Another thing, people like Michael Collins, Pádraig Pearse and Éamon de Valera, who btw did their part and risked their lives for your freedom today which your're obviously so ungreatful for judging by your British influence, would be spinning in their grave if they knew people like you were so negative about what is part of our identity and what forms part of our culture which attracts so many tourists from around the world each year, which if we didn't have, our economy would be screwed because its the biggest industry in the country.

Glad to see you see something that is such an important asset to this country, is a waste of time. As far as I'm concerned, people like yourself who moan and complain about Irish, are just wasters who couldn't be bothered to learn the language.

MrJoeSoap

I'm aware you weren't replying to me, but I'm going to reply to your post anyway.

An Ginear&#225 wrote: »

there are well over 300,000 fluent speakers of Irish in Ireland, with over 1,000,000 having good knowledge of the language

Primarily because it is forced upon us at school.

An Ginear&#225 wrote: »

There are also approximately 25,000 speakers of Irish in the US, just to give you an idea of how many speak it outside of Ireland

I would assume the vast majority of these are emigrants who learned it in Irish schools.

An Ginear&#225 wrote: »

And to make it clear, in black and white, of the importance of the Irish language, it is the official language of the Republic of Ireland, English is just a secondary language recognised by the state.

As well as the language that the vast majority of Irish people use every day. It's the language you typed your message in. Making Irish the primary language of our country is a token gesture with absolutely no relevance in practice.

An Ginear&#225 wrote: »

Another thing, people like Michael Collins, Pádraig Pearse and Éamon de Valera, who btw did their part and risked their lives for your freedom today which your're obviously so ungreatful for judging by your British influence, would be spinning in their grave if they knew people like you were so negative about what is part of our identity and what forms part of our culture

Its part of our history, but that is about it. I don't speak Irish, and haven't done so since school. Its not a part of my culture. The reason I will learn another language, should I choose to do so, is to enable myself to communicate with other people who I otherwise couldn't. I don't reckon I'll ever meet someone who can speak Irish but not English.

An Ginear&#225 wrote: »

Glad to see you see something that is such an important asset to this country, is a waste of time. As far as I'm concerned, people like yourself who moan and complain about Irish, are just wasters who couldn't be bothered to learn the language.

I learned the language, not by choice but because I was forced to. Did quite well in my Irish exams and was delighted that I wouldn't have to study it again.

Thirdfox

Oh by the way English is an official language in Ireland (we have two official languages) - check the constitution (Article 8.2). The only situation where Irish is more important than English (from a legal viewpoint) is when you have a clash between the English and Irish version of laws, the Irish meaning is taken to be correct.

Thirdfox

Kwekubo wrote:

I don't think anyone's suggesting that you shouldn't use the name Éire when you're speaking Irish, just that it doesn't make sense to use it when speaking English.

But we don't speak English English, we speak Irish English (just like Americans speak American English) - we can incorporate parts of our ethnic language into the primary language...

I personally wouldn't be offended if someone said Éire when referring to Ireland (in fact I would be quite pleasantly surprised that they knew some Irish). Then again I'm not what you would deem "normal" Irish I suppose (naturalised immigrant)

cooker3

An Ginear&#225 wrote: »

Also, Irish will become an official EU language from January 2007, allowing any fluent MEP's to speak as Gaeilge and for official EU documents to be made available through Irish.

The EU have many ways of wasting money over the years, this is 1 of the worst examples, such a waste of money.

Flex

An Ginear&#225 wrote: »

I can just sense the pride in being Irish from both of you...



Get your facts straight for one, there are well over 300,000 fluent speakers of Irish in Ireland, with over 1,000,000 having good knowledge of the language, which represents 1/4 of the total population, a far cry from 0.0001%! There are also approximately 25,000 speakers of Irish in the US, just to give you an idea of how many speak it outside of Ireland, with many universities and night-schools, particularly in UK and Germany offering Irish courses. Irish is also taught as an optional school subject in Australia.
And to make it clear, in black and white, of the importance of the Irish language, it is the official language of the Republic of Ireland, English is just a secondary language recognised by the state. And it's not confusing for tourists, it's why tourists come here, especially American who love seeing Irish during their visits. Also, Irish will become an official EU language from January 2007, allowing any fluent MEP's to speak as Gaeilge and for official EU documents to be made available through Irish.
Another thing, people like Michael Collins, Pádraig Pearse and Éamon de Valera, who btw did their part and risked their lives for your freedom today which your're obviously so ungreatful for judging by your British influence, would be spinning in their grave if they knew people like you were so negative about what is part of our identity and what forms part of our culture which attracts so many tourists from around the world each year, which if we didn't have, our economy would be screwed because its the biggest industry in the country.

Glad to see you see something that is such an important asset to this country, is a waste of time. As far as I'm concerned, people like yourself who moan and complain about Irish, are just wasters who couldn't be bothered to learn the language.

Well said

Ponster

An Ginear&#225 wrote: »

I can just sense the pride in being Irish from both of you...



Get your facts straight for one, there are well over 300,000 fluent speakers of Irish in Ireland, with over 1,000,000 having good knowledge of the language

Hmmm, I take it your're gatting those figures from the last census ?

While I can't disprove them I do find them a little large based on my travels in the country. Does 1 in 4 or so people really understand the language?

Dr_Teeth

Look it's pretty freakin' simple lads. When you're speaking English, you don't say 'Deutschland' or 'España' or 'Sverige' or 'Éire'. You say 'Germany', 'Spain', 'Sweden', 'Ireland'. This isn't a difficult concept surely.

An Ginearál

Primarily because it is forced upon us at school.

I hear this statement all the time by people who are anti-Irish, and it's a rediculous one. I could easily make the same arguement about English, it was forced on me as a child, as I would much rather now be able to speak fluent Irish than fluent English, though preferably I'd like to speak both fluently, Irish at home, and using English in the workplace if it was necessary and when going abroad. I was denied the chance to be fluent in Irish by the government because the ciriculum is completely based around English. If Irish shouldn't be forced upon people, then what about having to learn a European language for the Junior Cert, or having to learn English for both the Junior and Leaving Cert? Why should these remain compulsory?

I would assume the vast majority of these are emigrants who learned it in Irish schools.

Not necessarily, a lot of them would have learnt it through evening classes, and a lot of them would have had Irish ancestors and they may have wanted to study the language.

As well as the language that the vast majority of Irish people use every day. It's the language you typed your message in. Making Irish the primary language of our country is a token gesture with absolutely no relevance in practice.

I could've quite easily have written my reply as Gaeilge, but would you have understood it and have been able to reply to it?...
Irish was at one stage the primary language that all government business was conducted through but over the past couple of decades, pretty much every Taoiseach after de Valera, it has been neglected, but I'm confident that will change over time.

Its part of our history, but that is about it. I don't speak Irish, and haven't done so since school. Its not a part of my culture. The reason I will learn another language, should I choose to do so, is to enable myself to communicate with other people who I otherwise couldn't. I don't reckon I'll ever meet someone who can speak Irish but not English.

Yes because English has been forced on people for the past few decades and Irish no longer has as strong a presence as it did. Theres more interest in it than ever before, but theres nowehere near the amount that were fluent in it. See how I can make the same arguement about English?!

I learned the language, not by choice but because I was forced to. Did quite well in my Irish exams and was delighted that I wouldn't have to study it again.

So when you were being sent to a school at the age of 4 or 5, you chose to go to a school that operated through English? Give me a break...