This'll get them going in Cork!!!!!

Zebra3

This'll certainly have them up in arms again!!!!!

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1716036&issue_id=14831

Royal helper demands €1m for town's park

A BUCKINGHAM Palace official and his brother were last night accused of acting like 'carpetbaggers' over ancestral lands used as an Irish town park.

Patrick and Michael Jephson are seeking up to €1m for a 34-acre property which their ancestor had leased to the town of Mallow in North Cork for use as a park and public amenity.

The land was given to Mallow in 1907 on a 99-year lease which officially expired at 12pm last night.

Michael Jephson, director of hospitality at Buckingham Palace, and his brother Patrick, a former aide to Princess Diana, initiated legal proceedings earlier this year for repossession of the 34-acre park after talks on a new lease failed.

The park - which borders the River Blackwater - is the town's main amenity. The Jephson brothers have now granted a six-month extension to Mallow Town Council and Cork County Council for talks on the future of the park - almost 99 years to the day since their ancestor, Catherine Jephson-Norreys, leased the land to Mallow for the use of its people.

The six-month extension to facilitate talks came after the London brothers refused an offer of €500,000 for their interest in the property.

Offer

It is understood the brothers value their interest at approximately €1m - and both Mallow and Cork County Council will now have to substantially increase their offer.

Last night, local Cllr Joe Sherlock said the stance of the Jephsons was in stark contrast to the attitude of their forebears.

"I don't think the descendants of the original Commander Jephson are acting in good faith - I think they are out to make a quick buck."

"They have never made any fruitful contribution to life in Mallow and now they are seeking to act as carpet-baggers and extract an astronomical sum. We believe that that is wrong - it is morally indefensible," he said.

Ralph Riegel

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

it would if we took much notice.... but unlike some of our others friends a little north of us, we don't recognize buckingham palace or any ancestral claims they may have. we will just keep stringing them along for the ride.

nice try.

meditraitor

I dont see the problem, the land belongs to them legally, the 99 year lease is up so they have a right to do what ever they like with it, and if they do sell it for €1m, Mallow is getting one hell of a deal for 34acres


Mark

chamlis

So what if no one pays?
What are they going to do, pitch a tent in the middle of the park and shake fists at us lowly Irish?

squibs

http://mallowtown.com/PHPbb2/viewtopic.php?t=588

Further debate on the issue here.

€1,000,000 does seem like ok value, even if the land spends a lot of time underwater.

meditraitor

chamlis wrote:

So what if no one pays?

34 acres of land in any Irish town will sell, especially at that price!
They(owners) are doing the right thing by offering it to Mallow at a knockdown price, although Im sure there is plenty of unscrupulous builders out there who would be willing to step in if the town/council is too miserley to cough up.

xabi

Patrick and Michael Jephson, if your listening, I offer 1.1 Million for the park.

BTW - How many house could i fit onto 34 Acres?

X.

r3nu4l

If the law says it's theirs they are entitled to demand money for it for a new lease.

They are also entitled to sell it and I'm sure many of Irelands wealthy would eagerly pay €1 million for it. It's a pittance to pay for that amount of land.

I'd like to know more about how the land came to be theirs. I disagree with English ownership of any land that was forcibly taken during occupation all those years ago but if it was bought by their ancestors or taken in payment of debt then that's fair enough.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

meditraitor wrote:

the land belongs to them legally,
Mark

does it?

r3nu4l wrote:

I'd like to know more about how the land came to be theirs. I disagree with English ownership of any land that was forcibly taken during occupation all those years ago but if it was bought by their ancestors or taken in payment of debt then that's fair enough.

i have to agree with your comments r3nu4l
......


doing a little research myself here, apparently the land was "granted" to them before 1580 something by the then queen of england elizabeth I.

so ya, it depends on what side of the fence (water) you sit on whether you believe the land is legally theirs or was initially stolen from the Irish.
i know what we believe in the rest of Ireland, but that may differ as you enter the pale

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

ClockWorkOrange

1906 was pre-independence..

Those English ***** should be told to **** off!

nesf

ziggy67 wrote:

The council of the day signed a 99 year lease with the owners so they obviously recognised the ownership was legit.

Eh, in 1907 the ownership would be legit considering we were part of the British Empire back then. It's a fair price that they are asking though; they should be paid really imho.

nesf

ClockWorkOrange wrote:

1906 was pre-independence..

Those English ***** should be told to **** off!

Tone it down a bit please.

meditraitor

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

doing a little research myself here, apparently the land was "granted" to them before 1580 something by the then queen of england elizabeth I.

so ya, it depends on what side of the fence (water) you sit on whether you believe the land is legally theirs or was initially stolen from the Irish.
i know what we believe in the rest of Ireland, but that may differ as you enter the pale

So you believe that a family who were granted land 426 years ago by the ruler of Ireland at the time should have their land stolen from them?

Thanks be that this type of "blame the brits for everything" attitude is not as prevelant anymore.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

ziggy67 wrote:

The council of the day signed a 99 year lease with the owners so they obviously recognised the ownership was legit.

erm...do you know when we got independence from england my friend.

the council of the day was english so i would presume the would recognise ownership to be in english.

was that your only point..... ah well.

r3nu4l

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

i know what we believe in the rest of Ireland, but that may differ as you enter the pale

That whole "The Pale" thing doesn't really stand up anymore tbh, you'll find proportionally as many of 'Pale' minded people in Cork as you will in Dublin, the midset comes with wealth and affluence, rather than Geography .

As for the land being granted to them...well, I disagree with meditraitor (;) joking). I don't feel it's bigoted to think that the land wasn't really theirs to grant in the first place, these days their invasion and occupation would be considered illegal...even the so called legal occupation of Iraq today doesn't see Britain 'granting' any land to any of her people (not that they would want it I imagine). Sure they grant rebuilding contracts to big firms but no land!

Either way, if Irish law today recognises the legitimacy of the claim (as it appears to) then so be it, I won't argue that, let them get as much money as they can for it If Mallow were willing to pay €500,000 and these guys want a million, cool! They could get a lot more if it was put on the open market.

EDIT: \m/_(>_<)_\m/, I'm sure that the council of the day were probably majority Irish but with English-leaning sympathies, hence their position on the council

EDIT #2: Actually, thinking about it, if Mallow recognise the ownership of the land then they are just being tight-arsed and cheeky by offering a paltry- €0.5 million! The Government should step in, buy the land outright and let the baby have it's rattle

humanji

They weren't the English government. They were people who recieved land. When Ireland became independent, it didn't change the who the land belonged to.

The Sweeper

Like anything else, whoever holds the paperwork owns the land. If they have deeds to that patch of earth saying it's theirs, and nobody else has anything on paper that legally supercedes those deeds, well then it belongs to the two chaps who it belongs to.

As for people making an unholy hoo-ha out of the Buckingham Palace or English thing, cop on would you? If the land was leased by an Irish family to Mallow and the lease was now up, it'd be the same issue.

If you don't think so, then I await your communication to the 514,000,000 people currently living in North America requesting they give their land back to the native american indians and go back where they came from.

ferdi

throw them their 30 pieces of silver, i wouldnt take a piss for €1million

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

r3nu4l wrote:

That whole "The Pale" thing doesn't really stand up anymore tbh, you'll find proportionally as many of 'Pale' minded people in Cork as you will in Dublin, the midset comes with wealth and affluence, rather than Geography .

i disagree with you on this point... but that is a different issue and by all means start up another thread if you want to discuss it but not here.

wrote:

EDIT: \m/_(>_<)_\m/, I'm sure that the council of the day were probably majority Irish but with English-leaning sympathies, hence their position on the council

I'm sure your right... but that doesn't take from the fact that it was an english council answering to an english government.

Dyr

I say we throw them the million and then turn the site into the Diane Spencer memorial go-kart track.

That or burn their houses down

r3nu4l

MinesBIGSLUT wrote:

Like anything else, whoever holds the paperwork owns the land.

I agree with you completely, if it's legally theirs then they have the right to sell it!

ClockWorkOrange

MinesBIGSLUT wrote:

Like anything else, whoever holds the paperwork owns the land. If they have deeds to that patch of earth saying it's theirs, and nobody else has anything on paper that legally supercedes those deeds, well then it belongs to the two chaps who it belongs to.

Now this is possibly the most dumb ignorant thing i have ever witnessed.

So when the Europeans carved up Africa and created land deeds they were clearly in the right.. The Africans who lived and farmed the lands for thousands of years should buy the land back...and happily be driven into slavery.. Get real man... The English basically stole the land of your ancestors and you think thats all right.. Irish men and women toiled in poverty and what amounts to slavery to pay back the English "Land lords" who had the "deeds"

MinesBIGSLUT wrote:

If you don't think so, then I await your communication to the 514,000,000 people currently living in North America requesting they give their land back to the native american indians and go back where they came from.

The difference in the US is that the colonists committed mass genocide so that there wasnt enough native americans to push their right to get any of their lands back.. The colonization of America was probably the most shameful period in human history.. the liquidation of entire races.. you wont find it in the offical history...

But according to you its all right though they had the deeds and papers...

I don't think mallow cc should give any money whatsoever to these two jokers, and btw its not mallows money, mallow cc dont have any money, they will use 1million of your taxpaying euros to buy that land back...A stand should be made...

r3nu4l

ClockWorkOrange wrote:

But according to you its all right though they had the deeds and papers...

Whether you agree or not according to the LAW it's okay and that's the end of the argument really. I don't agree that it's morally justified but unless the law changes then I'm afraid there is nothing illegal or legally wrong about it.

The Sweeper

ClockWorkOrange wrote:

Now this is possibly the most dumb ignorant thing i have ever witnessed.

So when the Europeans carved up Africa and created land deeds they were clearly in the right.. The Africans who lived and farmed the lands for thousands of years should buy the land back...and happily be driven into slavery.. Get real man... The English basically stole the land of your ancestors and you think thats all right.. Irish men and women toiled in poverty and what amounts to slavery to pay back the English "Land lords" who had the "deeds"

The difference in the US is that the colonists committed mass genocide so that there wasnt enough native americans to push their right to get any of their lands back.. The colonization of America was probably the most shameful period in human history.. the liquidation of entire races.. you wont find it in the offical history...

But according to you its all right though they had the deeds and papers...

I don't think mallow cc should give any money whatsoever to these two jokers, and btw its not mallows money, mallow cc dont have any money, they will use 1million of your taxpaying euros to buy that land back...A stand should be made...

...where are you from?

No, seriously, originally, like, where are you from? Your ancestry? Way back when?

The cradle of humanity in northern Africa?

You of Viking descent?

Any Aboriginie in you, you reckon?

Do you know who your great, great, great, great, great grandparents are?

No?

Then what goddamned right do you have to live where you do, you land-stealing, colonising, minority oppressing bigot?

God it must be incredibly difficult to be you, with the enormous weight of guilt you must feel for the hurt your ancestors caused to whoever it was whose land they stole so you could live where you do. Sack cloth and ashes and self flagellation on a daily basis, eh?

Sheltered much, you?

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

MinesBIGSLUT wrote:

Any Aboriginie in you, you reckon?

As you brought it up...
aren't the Australians giving back lands that was stolen by the English.

good point, but i don't think you meant to agree with our side of the argument,
just as well because that post above is sounding fairly desperate and grasping at straws.

monkeyfudge

Surely it doesn't matter who owns the land. If it has been designated as a park then no one can build anything else on it.

They just don't have to grant planning permission for anything.

r3nu4l

Wow Zebra3, good thread, didn't just get them going in Cork, got people going here on boards too

On another note, the style has just reverted from funky Hallowe'en to normal Think I'll play around with the settings

EDIT:

monkeyfudge wrote:

Surely it doesn't matter who owns the land. If it has been designated as a park then no one can build anything else on it.

Hey you, stop coming in here talking sense, this is AH, take your reasonable, sensible talk elsewhere pilgrim, this is our land...geddit?

The Sweeper

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

As you brought it up...
aren't the Australians giving back lands that was stolen by the English.

good point, but i don't think you meant to agree with our side of the argument,
just as well because that post above is sounding fairly desperate and grasping at straws.

They're giving back their entire continent are they? Oh sorry, I must have missed that on the lunchtime news.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

ClockWorkOrange

MinesBIGSLUT wrote:

...where are you from?

No, seriously, originally, like, where are you from? Your ancestry? Way back when?

The cradle of humanity in northern Africa?

You of Viking descent?

Any Aboriginie in you, you reckon?

Do you know who your great, great, great, great, great grandparents are?

No?

Then what goddamned right do you have to live where you do, you land-stealing, colonising, minority oppressing bigot?

God it must be incredibly difficult to be you, with the enormous weight of guilt you must feel for the hurt your ancestors caused to whoever it was whose land they stole so you could live where you do. Sack cloth and ashes and self flagellation on a daily basis, eh?

Sheltered much, you?

I'm embarrassed for you..

You clearly don't understand the difference between the dynamics of early human settlement and the concept of modern colonization...

Think about it, what if you were an aboriginal? Would you be making the same argument?

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

humanji

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Other than Australians, I don't think I've ever heard anyone call someone else 'mate' up here either. I hate to be the one to point it out, but there are lots of 'different' people in the world. Gross generalisation of a city (paticularly one with so many foreign people) is a bit pointless.

r3nu4l

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I won't get into that on this thread but we know all about the uproar in Cork over the way that was done.

Ask the ordinary working-class/lower middle-class Dub or Cork man to comment on most issues and you'll get a similar response from both.

As for my personal experience I refer to Gaelic football as Ga, GAA or football and to English football as football or soccer depending on my mood. After all it's GAELIC football not football. The word soccer seems to be an American thing but we'll leave that to the Linguistics and Eytymology folk.

Back on topic, was that guy in Dublin English? I can't remember.

The Sweeper

ClockWorkOrange wrote:

I'm embarrassed for you..

You clearly don't understand the difference between the dynamics of early human settlement and the concept of modern colonization...

Think about it, what if you were an aboriginal? Would you be making the same argument?

Nice - do you want to hold off being embarassed for a few minutes and define 'modern' for me?

seamus

Common law here people. Think about this as a rational person. If the land no longer belonged to them when Ireland declared independence, then it would have been properly seized, and have become public property. Instead, the lease stayed in effect, was recognised by the Government and 99 years later those with whom the lease was agreed, have a right to do with their land as they see fit.

If we had declared independence five years ago, then maybe we would have grounds to "annex" this plot of land, but not now. 99% of us are living on land that has been taken from someone over the last 1000 years. The logic that some are using above dictates that we should trace back the ancestry of every sq.m. of land in this country and return it to its "rightful" owners.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

seamus wrote:

Common law here people. Think about this as a rational person. If the land no longer belonged to them when Ireland declared independence, then it would have been properly seized, and have become public property.

ahe but here is the scenario,
When Ireland declared independence it was a public park, therefor may have slipped through the cracks when the property was being seized by the free state.

humanji

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

ahe but here is the scenario,
When Ireland declared independence it was a public park, therefor may have slipped through the cracks when the property was being seized by the free state.

But wouldn't the fact that it was owned land mean it's not now or ever was a public park, it was private land opened for the public to use? I honestly don't know myself, but that's what it seems to me.

BaZmO*

ClockWorkOrange wrote:

The difference in the US is that the colonists committed mass genocide so that there wasnt enough native americans to push their right to get any of their lands back.. The colonization of America was probably the most shameful period in human history.. the liquidation of entire races.. you wont find it in the offical history...

Always thought it was quite ironic that the Americans sent APACHE Helicopters into Kossovo to help against Genocide condisering that the Helicopters were named after a race of people that they tried to wipe out themselves.

Thrill

If this goes to court the costs could be staggering, and they would probably
still have to pay them the money anyway.
I think they should give them the 1 mil and tell them to shove it.
At least the land would be in Irish hands again.

meditraitor

ClockWorkOrange wrote:

I'm embarrassed for you..

You clearly don't understand the difference between the dynamics of early human settlement and the concept of modern colonization...

Think about it, what if you were an aboriginal? Would you be making the same argument?

Please elaborate on this statement, I would like to know were Early Human settlement ends and "modern colonization" starts so I can reply to your points,

thebman

meditraitor wrote:

So you believe that a family who were granted land 426 years ago by the ruler of Ireland at the time should have their land stolen from them?

The land wasn't given to them by the Irish government. If it was directly after the Irish independence do you think they'd of been paid. They have no right to the land anymore because the country is under different ownership. There complaint is with the British government for letting the Irish take control of their land. They should ask them for the million.

They are just looking for free cash anyway so I come down against them because their request is ridiculous.

Thanks be that this type of "blame the brits for everything" attitude is not as prevelant anymore.

BTW do you live in ireland with a comment like this? That attitude is alive and well in parts of the country. Besides this has nothing to do with that. It is a simple matter of change of ownership of the country. The previous contract should be considered null and void.

Marksie

meditraitor wrote:

Please elaborate on this statement, I would like to know were Early Human settlement ends and "modern colonization" starts,

east of clonmel

humanji

But they legally own the land. The Irish government believes that and so do the people of Mallow. TBH, they are letting Mallow off easy by just asking for the million. The land could be sold off to developers for millions more.

As for what local Cllr Joe Sherlock said in the article: "They have never made any fruitful contribution to life in Mallow..." this would back up the my thought that maybe the guys just want rid of the land. They are selling it off cheap (and quite rightly refused a lesser offer from the council).

Going back to an idea that put forward, since there's 75,000 of us on boards, why don't we pitch in €14 each and buy the land and create BoardsLand, Irelands premium theme park! Think of the rides we could have. "It's a CoolSmileyGirl World After All", "Thunder Mountainyman", "Gordon's Wild Ride", "Beruthiel's 'This Is Not A Medical Forum' Adventure". I'm telling you, this could really work!

mountainyman

MinesBIGSLUT wrote:

Nice - do you want to hold off being embarassed for a few minutes and define 'modern' for me?

Well if you can't distinguish between the outmigration from africa a hundred thousand years ago and the Elizabethan conquest of Ireland I am fraid I can't hold off the emabarassment, anyway if you don't knwo what modern means what's the point.

MM

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

humanji wrote:

it was private land opened for the public to use?

that's why i said that it may have slipped through the cracks and wasn't picked up by the free state as land to be reclaimed for the people of Ireland.

The Sweeper

The point is simple.

I didn't know any of the migrating early men.

I didn't know the Elizabethans.

I didn't know the Raj, those who sailed with Columbus, the Vikings or any of the other historical figures who expanded their borders into other countries.

Subsequently I don't feel passionately enough about a patch of land in Mallow to see any justification in people shouting arse about it because it's 'the English' that own it.

If you want to play the ear-achingly dull '800 years of colonisation' record because two English people are requesting a more realistic - but still bargain - price for a patch of land that is legally theirs, I ask you this:

When are you going to get over it?

Can you see a solution that'll suit everyone?

No?

Do you just enjoy drinking pints and singing rebel songs because you have nothing else in your life to be passionate about?

Now that's embarassing.

BaZmO*

Why don't the government just buy it back on a Cumpulsary Purchase Order?

Dyr

MinesBIGSLUT wrote:

Do you just enjoy drinking pints and singing rebel songs because you have nothing else in your life to be passionate about?

Now that's embarassing.

do you hit the desk with your foot everytime your knee jerks while you're posting?

Must hurt a bit

The Sweeper

Did you miss the first 40 posts in this thread? If you go have a look through them you'll see I'm actually involved in a debate. (For a given value of 'debate'.) I'm sure you could buy something useful with that two cents though.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

MinesBIGSLUT wrote:

Now that's embarassing.

no we all cant be wrong, everybody else is able to debate this issue like adults, no matter what side they believe is right....
but your just embarrassing yourself here with your posts, and yes that's embarrass with two R's