Cylon Creation Question

User45701

Ok So mankind built the Ai`s called cylons but do u we know what they looked like where just big computers or some sort of walking robot?

i just dont see why the humans would create the centurians it makes no sence there was no war or anything that needed combat robots so im assuming that centurians where only created after the cylons rebelled against the humans

So what would these orginal cylons look like?

A friend of mine suggested

"That there was 1 orginal human form cylon that was created by the humans at the start and that cylon is cylon model no.1

And he belives that it was a command and controll interface so it would make cylon and master (human) interaction easyier, only the old goverment would have any knowlage of this. Therefore noone in the goverment as of now or the military would have any knowlage of its creation"

The humans would also not built a cylon raider or a basestar they would serve no purupse so thereforce the cylons created both the bastestars and raiders themsevles.

How did they build basestars through some sort of shipyard but how did they even build a shipyard? i doubt the humans just let the cylons have there own shipyards before the cylon rebellion.

The cylons must have atleast ALLOT of autamated "secreat" factorys that built centurians for the comming rebellion against makind.

robnubis

What we know is, at some point or another humans created AI functional robots known as the cylons, they were used for every need of their human masters.

At some point the cylons rebelled against their former masters and thus stop serving them, this led to the eventual war.

What most likely happened, was that the cylons left the colonies and began a homeworld of their own, and soon enough created an army capable of waging war against humanity, this didnt have to happen over night neccesarily.

Also the centurions looked liek the ones from the original battlestar and didnt have any in built weapons or anything.

c0y0te

I think (from memory) the key points are as follows:-

1) Humans created robots (cylons) which eventually rebelled and led to a war.

2) Cylons stopped; war ceased and both parties never saw each other then for a period of approx 40 years.

3) In between, humans kept armistace station manned in case cylons ever returned and wanted to 'talk'.

4) When cylons came back, they had evolved beyond pure robotic form and created approx 12 'human' models, as well as (potentially) upgraded centurians.

5) The 40 year gap was more than enough time for a smart AI lifeform to evolve, create many many more units, develop tech and ships and most of all... experiment. Keep in mind that the AIs would have originally been programmed with technical knowledge to complete their assigned tasks - which I'm guessing included construction, shipbuilding (just like we use robots now to build cars) and a host of other mundane but potentially dangerous occupations.

6) Current 'human' model cylons are most interested in experimentation on and cross breeding of humans - as part of the evolutionary process started 40 years ago. They are a breed above the centurians; they are higher up the food chain but not necessarilly the highest. I suspect there is another form further up which we have yet to see. They are however consistently interested in continuing the evolution and exploring the theological side of things having conquered the physical side (reincarnation, immortality via rebirth using a continuied conciousness etc.)

7) Co-existence seems unlikely so both sides will look for ways to get 'one up' on the other until one side is eradicated, for good.

That's just my 2c anyway

User45701

no sry i didnt explain right i know all about the cylon rebellion the 40 year gap the space station

c0y0te wrote:

1) Humans created robots (cylons) which eventually rebelled and led to a war.

the part i dont get is what did these robots look like where did they get the facalitys to produce weapons of war?

Vokes

User45701 wrote:

the part i dont get is what did these robots look like

In the miniseries, there's a model of a cylon from 40 years before in the museum.

duridian

User45701 wrote:

no sry i didnt explain right i know all about the cylon rebellion the 40 year gap the space station



the part i dont get is what did these robots look like where did they get the facalitys to produce weapons of war?

Well I'm just guessing, but this is how I imagine the events prior to the 2003 miniseries:
Early on in their rebellion a few of the old Cylons could have stolen some of the already existing human transport, and began building up resources, ships, new Cylons etc. just out of range of the humans. The Cylons would still have been at a big disadvantage in going to war against the humans so soon, because of starting off with much more limited resources. This would tie in with the Cylons agreeing to an armistice. (i.e., They may have had little choice, accept peace or face possible destruction by continuing the war with the humans.) Learning from these mistakes the Cylons disappear for 40 years to lick their wounds, during which they make massive advances in military technology, artificial intelligence, biotechnology and espionage.

There have been rumours from the SciFi channel of a possible spinoff from BSG named "Caprica" which would be set half a century before BSG. This show will almost definitely answer your questions about the Cylon rebellion, if it airs.
http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?category=2&id=35773

Goodshape

Presumably the Cylons settled somewhere in the 40 years they were away, which is where they would have gotten their hands on the raw materials for their 'weapons of war'.

The '40 year old' Cylon model in the miniseries museum looks just like they did in the original series.

Vokes

But presumably the model in the museum isn't there cos the people of Caprica were fans of the 1978 show, but because that's what they were actually like.

Does this mean we'll see these models in the new 'Caprica' show (god, i hope not)

Goodshape

Well, I think it was put there more as a homage to the original than anything else. It's not really pointed out, it's just sitting there in a museum case.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if they tweak the design slightly (or even a lot) for the Caprica series.

//edit

This is the Cylon in the miniseries museum :

duridian

Yeah but how else can they do it now? You can't have the new centuriions in Caprica any more than you could have a Ferrari F50 in a World War 2 movie because the car didn't exist back then.
[Edit] We haven't seen the ones like in in the museum moving yet, it may still be a lot more effective than the Disco Stu bots from 1978, which were very obviously a man covered in tin foil.

Vokes

duridian wrote:

[Edit] We haven't seen the ones like in in the museum moving yet, it may still be a lot more effective than the Disco Stu bots from 1978, which were very obviously a man covered in tin foil.

Good point.

I guess its also probably reasonable to assume that the Colonials had designed more than the one type of model themselves - varying types of construction bots, etc.

mcgarnicle

Good question, after checking out the Galactica section of Wikipedia to try bring my self up to scratch on the back story etc it seems that the rebellion broke out on the 12 colonies simultaneously... It is also stated that Admiral Adama was a pilot back then and fought against the Cylons so they deffinately did have ships etc.

This reminds me of the Matrix, in the Animatrix we are told that people tried to eradicate the machines so the machines went and set up their own country in what is now Israel, here they built up their economy etc which, when war cam, allowed them to defeat humanity.

Both these stories are total bull**** to be honest. In the case of the Matrix there is no way that people would let that happen, if the machines went wrong they would be wiped out, end of. They would not be allowed become any real threat. Just like in galactica... surely once any threat was detected they would have wiped out the Cylons. The only possible answer I can think of is that the 12 colonies had decided to build the Cylons, space force and all, as a military defence against some unknown alien enemy only to have them turn on them.

User45701

i doubt the humans built base stars, or even built shipyards for cylons

mcgarnicle

User45701 wrote:

i doubt the humans built base stars, or even built shipyards for cylons

I doubt it too, but they had to come from somewhere and considering the cylons were on the 12 colonies I find it hard to believe that colonials just sat and watched as the cylons built up a war fleet in orbit of their planets.

User45701

welll as someone said they are thinking of making "Caprica" It will be a political drama based before the cylon war - it will follow the Adama family and another family dont know what the name is off hand - it dosnet matter the point is that it will answer out questions if they make the series.

Jack B. Badd

mcgarnicle wrote:

Both these stories are total bull**** to be honest. In the case of the Matrix there is no way that people would let that happen, if the machines went wrong they would be wiped out, end of. They would not be allowed become any real threat. Just like in galactica... surely once any threat was detected they would have wiped out the Cylons. The only possible answer I can think of is that the 12 colonies had decided to build the Cylons, space force and all, as a military defence against some unknown alien enemy only to have them turn on them.

I never really got the impression that the Cylons were created as a war machine but as a servant race, used in all aspects of life in the 12 colonies. It seems that the colonies used technology to a much greater extent before the Cylon rebellion than after. In fact, that reliance on technology seems to be their downfall in that they programmed the Cylons with enough intelligence for them to consider rebellion against their masters. Also they were in a position to undertake a successful rebellion because they were such an integral part of life in the colonies.
It explains why Galactica and the other orginal Battlestars didn't possess much in the way of intelligent technology or networked computers, as the Cylons could easily take control of technology of a certain intelligence level.

mcgarnicle

Jack B. Badd wrote:

I never really got the impression that the Cylons were created as a war machine but as a servant race, used in all aspects of life in the 12 colonies. It seems that the colonies used technology to a much greater extent before the Cylon rebellion than after. In fact, that reliance on technology seems to be their downfall in that they programmed the Cylons with enough intelligence for them to consider rebellion against their masters. Also they were in a position to undertake a successful rebellion because they were such an integral part of life in the colonies.
It explains why Galactica and the other orginal Battlestars didn't possess much in the way of intelligent technology or networked computers, as the Cylons could easily take control of technology of a certain intelligence level.

I know what you're saying and I agree with you. I don't think the Cylons were built as a military force either. But while it's easy enough to follow why they rebelled the question being asked is how did they come to have a powerful military of their own.

Look at it this way, had the black slaves in America revolted against their white owners we could all understand that. What would be hard to follow would be if these slaves, having rebelled, suddenly commanded a vast fleet of iron clads and other ships, combined with artillery etc comparable to that held by their former masters in the US armed forces without any outside help. That is the question here... how could the cylons, a race of servants and slaves manage to go from that position to rebelling and commanding base stars and raiders... how were they built etc.

User45701

well you have to remember black slaves where not that well educated and also didn't have a completely isolated home of there own to build a army

TerrorFirmer

Its possible the Cylons just seized Human military equipment in an orchestrated rebellion, almost like a civil war if you will, but between humans and robots of the colonies, rather then just humans.

My main gripe does not lie with that question, which could be easily explained. My main question would be, being not but cleverly programmed robots, how did Cylons somehow create the humanoid cylons.....how did they instill the self of self conscious being mere robots themselves? And being mere robots what actually caused a rebellion in the first place? If it happened simultaneously across all 12 colonies, someone must have orchestrated it...

Unless they were "intelligent" the entire time of their initital existence and always were intended to be, and the centurioins in the new BSG are just like that because the "old" cylons wanted to make an army of unquestioning and reliable drones....

Jack B. Badd

mcgarnicle wrote:

how were they built etc.

They were built over 40 years, I dunno how and to be honest that's not what BSG is about. Another show may deal with it in the future but personally I don't need to know the details of it to make BSG a good show. I presume the Cylons took control of whatever military assets they could from the 12 colonies when they first rebelled and worked from there when they left human occupied space.

HavoK wrote:

My main gripe does not lie with that question, which could be easily explained. My main question would be, being not but cleverly programmed robots, how did Cylons somehow create the humanoid cylons.....how did they instill the self of self conscious being mere robots themselves?

That'd be my main question to do with the Cylons too. But I still reckon that the humanity, for want of a better word, of the skin-jobs is the most interesting part of them. The interaction between them and the humans they encounter is what really grabs me. I think this show is actually starting to surpass B5 in my view...

GreeBo

ok there seems to be some crossed wires in this thread
I think the OP is asking how the cylons were able to wage a war *before* they left for their 40 years.
We can all figure out that during the 40 years they were able to build ships and basestars etc, but on the day they all decided to rebel what weapons did they have?
Spoons?

Jack B. Badd

They had themselves, they are heavily built metal men with intelligent programming and access to/control of a highly technology dependent civilisation. I really don't understand why it has to be spelled out that they themselves, by virtue of the fact that they are bigger and stronger, are the weapons.

User45701

no thats the problem humans didn't build them for war they probably did manual labor and other tasks but they where intelligent and self aware but they had no weapons they must have rebelled at the same time all over the 12 colonies at that 1 second every single cylon went for the nearest cop/military unit and they simply upgraded from there.

I think the idea or a original human form cylon always existing - model no.1 is the most logical explanation, when man made cylons they made 1 single human form as a command and control unit and only the scientists who created him/her would know of it not the military and the government was wiped out.

also consider that humans where the ones who designed the original [Season 3, Episode 6: Torn]

Hybrid Model

and that lead to the creation of the human cylons we know

TerrorFirmer

User45701 wrote:

also consider that humans where the ones who designed the original [Season 3, Episode 6: Torn]

Hybrid Model

and that lead to the creation of the human cylons we know

Ah that pretty much answers everything I wanted to know..

As for how the Cylons waged a rebellion I think its safe enough to say they probably just systematically raided all the nearest human military points for all their needs.

5uspect

Just a thought...
The war took place 40 years before the occupation of Caprica and the events of the new series. But that doesn't mean that the rebellion took place at the same time as the war (correct me if I'm missing something). They Cylons may just have just cut and run stealing a load of hardware in the process to start up elsewhere and probably killing lots of humans in the process. The humans angry with their slaves leaving chased after them looking for revenge but couldn't find where they jumped to.

So we have an almost reversed situation to the current series with humans chasing cylons. However the cylons being machines would not need a planet like Kobol or New Caprica to survive and could easily assemble their own weapons and ships in space by mining asteroids or planets. They they could fight back in the war.

The reasons that I think this is a possible scenario is that the humans were not shocked that the cylons could use FTL drives (only by the improvements they made) so it is possible that the cylons escaped in such a fashion. Also the humans see the raiders and basestars and call them such suggesting an arming of the cylons with new non-human hardware during or before the war.

Ultimately none of this is really important to BSG as the premise is believable enough without ruining it with star wars like prequels. Although a big screen outing might not be a bad thing...

Jack B. Badd

User45701 wrote:

also consider that humans where the ones who designed the original [Season 3, Episode 6: Torn]

Hybrid Model

and that lead to the creation of the human cylons we know

I've just finished watching s03e06 for the second time and I have no idea where you've come to that conclusion. Please, please enlighten me!

Goodshape

A robotic mining machine -- that's a cylon.
A robotic transport ship -- that's a cylon.
A robotic construction yoke -- that's a cylon.
A robotic menial labour, eh, robot -- that's a cylon.
A robotic bloody cook -- that's a cylon.

It's not a question of where they got weapons or ships to fight the war -- they were the fracking weapons and ships. 'Cylons' aren't only the pi-pedal variety.

With everything networked together, it would only take one conscious / intelligent model to have every networked robotic device on the twelve colonies rise up and rebel.

I think the question is really how did the humans ever survive the initial cylon rebellion, when all of their nifty 'helpful' robotic tech suddenly disobeying and fighting them.

5uspect

yeah thats the thing, if the cylons were just bog standard bipeds then it would be easier to understand. Remember how they were shocked to see that the new raiders were fully integrated cylons as wells as organic. I think that originally they must have been simple bipeds that manned larger yokes already built, maybe the rebellion happened as bigger cylon yokes were being built.

User45701

Jack B. Badd wrote:

I've just finished watching s03e06 for the second time and I have no idea where you've come to that conclusion. Please, please enlighten me!

I said "consider" its just a theory i have that it was humans that created it/her originally also in a interview with more he said that she/it is to be considered model 0 and it existed before the creation of the 12 models

Goodshape wrote:

A robotic mining machine -- that's a cylon.
A robotic transport ship -- that's a cylon.
A robotic construction yoke -- that's a cylon.
A robotic menial labour, eh, robot -- that's a cylon.
A robotic bloody cook -- that's a cylon.

It's not a question of where they got weapons or ships to fight the war -- they were the fracking weapons and ships. 'Cylons' aren't only the pi-pedal variety.

With everything networked together, it would only take one conscious / intelligent model to have every networked robotic device on the twelve colonies rise up and rebel.

I think the question is really how did the humans ever survive the initial cylon rebellion, when all of their nifty 'helpful' robotic tech suddenly disobeying and fighting them.

True you have some very good points

Jack B. Badd

User45701 wrote:

I said "consider" its just a theory i have that it was humans that created it/her originally also in a interview with more he said that she/it is to be considered model 0 and it existed before the creation of the 12 models

Ahhh...
Just so you're aware, "consider that..." and "consider the possibility that..." have two very different meanings. I believe you were looking for the latter as opposed to the former.
It's a reasonable theory tbh. Although I'm curious as to why the Baseships need a hybrid to control them at all. Wouldn't an integrated nervous system with limited intelligence, as in the case of the Raiders, do?

User45701

i guess not, the cylons are logical race but remember in season 2 episode 17 the captains hand?
the episode when pagasus was attacked by 3 baseships?
remember what happened when it started to attack one of them?
it retread ran away because the hybrid was afraid, this was after the destruction of the resurrection ship

Beach Head

Goodshape wrote:

A robotic mining machine -- that's a cylon.
A robotic transport ship -- that's a cylon.
A robotic construction yoke -- that's a cylon.
A robotic menial labour, eh, robot -- that's a cylon.
A robotic bloody cook -- that's a cylon.

I dont think anyone is listening to you.

I agree, all anyone has to do to try and understand it is look at T3. How the computer defense system rebelled on the planet Earth.

The original Cylon war raged for many years and the main Cylon warrior was the old Centurion or "Toaster"

If the Cylons (That is a central computer networked intelligence that controlled all things automated on the Colonies) rebelled they could have easily taken control of the Humans Battleships of the day. Maybe they were the Base Stars? All the ship had to do was vent all humans and attack a planet. That is one ship,one planet, et voila, rebellion!

Then all construction is suddenly focused on making new materials for more Cylon gadgets. Unmanned factories supplying raider parts for unmanned shuttles to deliver to a staging point etc

Meanwhile the humans are frantically clawing back parts of their technology that the Cylon intelligence cannot control. And they manufacture the Battlestars. I think it is mentioned in the mini series that the "original Battlestars had no networked computers"

The Battlestars were invented IMO by the humans for combat in the first war. The Cylons looked like everything unmanned and electronic etc. They wern't just walking 'bots.

toxick

The Cylons made the basestar after they rebelied. we know this, cause isnt the basestar actualy controlled by a human cylone(remember it was in one of the new ep in the 3rd seires with baltar on the baseship). but i could be talking crazy talk.

But also there raiders, arent they actualy controlled by some other living thing, due to Starbuck needed to kill its and hollow it out to take control when she was trapped on the planet(2nd seires i think)

but then i can be completly wrong, due to not going over the series lately(which i have to do soon actualy)

5uspect

I don't totally buy the cylons were not humanoid bots arguement. Its a very good point but I don't think it fits in here, perhaps both existed. Why then would the toasters take take humaniod form? The skin jobs fair enough, but that kinda (i think) stresses the idea that humans made cylons as humanoid bots (in the image of themselves etc etc) and then the cylons escaped and did the job properly and found god in the process. I'm sure we'll find out!

Beach Head

5uspect wrote:

I don't totally buy the cylons were not humanoid bots arguement. Its a very good point but I don't think it fits in here, perhaps both existed. Why then would the toasters take take humaniod form? The skin jobs fair enough, but that kinda (i think) stresses the idea that humans made cylons as humanoid bots (in the image of themselves etc etc) and then the cylons escaped and did the job properly and found god in the process. I'm sure we'll find out!

I believe that the Cylon intelligence created the toasters in order to build things. They needed robots to carry stuff around and to use as infantry cannon fodder.

toxick wrote:

The Cylons made the basestar after they rebelied. we know this, cause isnt the basestar actualy controlled by a human cylone(remember it was in one of the new ep in the 3rd seires with baltar on the baseship). but i could be talking crazy talk.

But also there raiders, arent they actualy controlled by some other living thing, due to Starbuck needed to kill its and hollow it out to take control when she was trapped on the planet(2nd seires i think)

but then i can be completly wrong, due to not going over the series lately(which i have to do soon actualy)

I actually have not seen any of the third series yet, however your point agrees with mine. The humans in my opinion on the Base Stars or the predecessor to the Base Star that the Cylons took over were controlled by humans. The Cylons have just replaced them.

cyrusdvirus

toxick wrote:

The Cylons made the basestar after they rebelied. we know this, cause isnt the basestar actualy controlled by a human cylone(remember it was in one of the new ep in the 3rd seires with baltar on the baseship). but i could be talking crazy talk
But also there raiders, arent they actualy controlled by some other living thing, due to Starbuck needed to kill its and hollow it out to take control when she was trapped on the planet(2nd seires i think)

but then i can be completly wrong, due to not going over the series lately(which i have to do soon actualy)

Some of us haven't seen the 3rd series yet toxick...... thanks for the spoiler tags

incontinentia

you guys know that in the original series the cylons were created by a different race and had wiped out their creators. then they went on to kill other types of intelligent life.


don't know if this is relavent to th discussion.....

5uspect

I think they've ignored that in the new series, infact there hasn't been a single other race in the whole show which is refreshing IMO.

I must see about looking at the original series again!

Berns

ok, didnt read everything but here's my thoughts.

- War's you get prisoners, Cylons prob captured some humans and experimented on how to integrate with them or sumfin, ie like the borg in star trek. Then possibly had enough experimentation from this to form the skinjobs.

- Planes today even have autopilot. Wouldnt have taken much for the raiders to have been made like that.

-

The base stars more or less are controlled how we'd assume a ship would be controlled. Maybe not with as many as we think but that one cylon that is constantly in the chamber speakin jibberish mainly. So maybe they haven't refined intellegence to handle that scale

Also, just a thought, have the cylons actually developed any new weapons after their departure, or they just mass producin and makin systems that were already created by humans more efficient???

robnubis

Think about it this way, how do rebellions get weapons?

The cylons would've started with nothing, having procured weapons/ships they would keep getting more, and being machines would've been able to begin building ships having assimliated the needed information and capturing the resources necessary.

In a drawn out war, they would've had ample time to design and build their own ships, Base Stars.

5uspect

Indeed there must have been an escalation on both sides as the battlestars were build to combat the cylons as current human technology apparently was easily disabled by cylon virus infection. So I suppose there was a rapid arms race on both sides.

User45701

If the Cylons (That is a central computer networked intelligence that controlled all things automated on the Colonies) rebelled they could have easily taken control of the Humans Battleships of the day. Maybe they were the Base Stars? All the ship had to do was vent all humans and attack a planet. That is one ship,one planet, et voila, rebellion!

Im sorry but i dont see how...
even if the cylons got controll of a networked ship all they can do is vent the ship or turn its weapons on its allies or maybe jump the ship inside a sun or whatever.
I dont think that a ship that has been hacked into by cylons would be able to take a planet

The rest of what you said made perfect sense tho.

toxick wrote:

The Cylons made the basestar after they rebelied. we know this, cause isnt the basestar actualy controlled by a human cylone(remember it was in one of the new ep in the 3rd seires with baltar on the baseship). but i could be talking crazy talk.

Not a clone more of a hybrid between skin job and centurion it/she is liked to the ship

toxick wrote:

But also there raiders, arent they actualy controlled by some other living thing, due to Starbuck needed to kill its and hollow it out to take control when she was trapped on the planet(2nd seires i think)

but then i can be completly wrong, due to not going over the series lately(which i have to do soon actualy)

I thought the raiders themselves where like animals or something with little except rage and primitive hunting instincts

Berns wrote:

- War's you get prisoners, Cylons prob captured some humans and experimented on how to integrate with them or sumfin, ie like the borg in star trek. Then possibly had enough experimentation from this to form the skinjobs.

eh i get the feeling that there were not always skin jobs then there was defiantly a "model 1" the first cylon skin-job that could have even been around for the 1st war

Berns wrote:

-

The base stars more or less are controlled how we'd assume a ship would be controlled. Maybe not with as many as we think but that one cylon that is constantly in the chamber speakin jibberish mainly. So maybe they haven't refined intellegence to handle that scale

If you think about it, it would be life like you cant imagine we don't know what a hybid feels or even what it can see. Life without gravity with loads of small intelligent life forms crawling inside of you as well as that you have an almost infinite amount of knowledge inside you - i can see how that would cause madness and would explain the jibberish - we don't even know it is jibberish because one model (cant remember name/number) believes they are the words of god

Berns wrote:

Also, just a thought, have the cylons actually developed any new weapons after their departure, or they just mass producin and makin systems that were already created by humans more efficient???

nothing new but more advanced tho
cylon jump tech is more advanced but there dradas seems to be similar to galactica's

5uspect wrote:

Indeed there must have been an escalation on both sides as the battlestars were build to combat the cylons as current human technology apparently was easily disabled by cylon virus infection. So I suppose there was a rapid arms race on both sides.

Actually i wonder how much more or less advanced earth will be because they where never held back in tech development