What is your religion and why is it the right one?

Dave!

I think I should preface this by saying that I think that this is a genuinely good topic, as it will draw in all of the various religions, and they can all engage with one-another. It will inevitably lead to conflict and possibly hostility -- such is the nature of debate -- but that doesn't detract from the value of the thread. If all of these religions have their own interpretation of "the truth", then one of them must be lying, so if they're all thrown into the mix together, Darwinism will take over (scoring some cheap points for the atheists!:D hehe) and the strongest one/one with the most evidence to support it will have to prevail. So we may get some converts at the end of this thread! Or maybe people will keep dodging questions and we won't get anywhere Regardless, this could be a very interesting thread!
I've posted it in the Spirituality forum because I feel it is the most relevent one to the topic. This is the Religion/Spirituality forum, and the sub-forums are for major religions, and spirituality. As there is no "General" religion discussion forum, I think that it's best suited for here. Feel free to move it though.

Anyways, as it is late and I've to be up in a few shorts hours, I'll have to post my own thoughts in the morrow, but I will PM a link to this thread to various people whom I've seen posting in the various religious forums, and who have professed their own faith or lack thereof.

Looking forward to this being a success, come on lads! And keep it civil -- no eye gouging or fish-hooking!

EDIT: I know atheism isn't a religion BTW, but for the sake of a catchy title I'm gonna ignore that fact

MrJoeSoap

Atheism is my religion and I believe it to be the "right one" because I have a firm belief in science and particularly evolution. I'm by no means an expert in either, but I've read a few books and I'm quite satisfied with my choice.

Sorry, not to be too elaborate, but thats my basic belief and reasoning.

Asiaprod

I suppose I would be called an Independent Buddhist, that is one who has studied for a number of years and has started to chart his/her own path. The reason being that organizations, in general, always end up trying to impose restrictions of some kind, or concentrait on one aspect of the belief to the near exclussion of all others.
I would claim to be Atheist in that I do not believe in any Gods, Agnostic in that there is always a possibility that I am wrong, and spiritual in that I believe there is more to me than just flesh and blood. As a Buddhist I am very respectful of the rights of others to follow their religons or beliefs, I always try to understand their connection with their Deities and seek the good points, but this does not mean I accept or believe what they claim.
I place much much more emphasis and value on the person rather than on the system, God or belief.

plonk

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Atheism is my religion and I believe it to be the "right one" because I have a firm belief in science and particularly evolution. I'm by no means an expert in either, but I've read a few books and I'm quite satisfied with my choice.

Sorry, not to be too elaborate, but thats my basic belief and reasoning.

Same makes since but the right relgion is the one that makes you happiest and most content

MrJoeSoap

plonk wrote:

Same makes since but the right relgion is the one that makes you happiest and most content

Exactly, once you aren't hurting anyone else, no harm is being done. Live and let live.

robindch

> I would claim to be Atheist in that I do not believe in any Gods, Agnostic in
> that there is always a possibility that I am wrong, and spiritual in that I
> believe there is more to me than just flesh and blood.

Couldn't have said it better

> What is your religion and why is it the right one?

...which begs the question of what's a religion? In my own definition, it's the mass effect arising from a group of people, each of whom believes that everybody else in the group holds an authoritarian, infallible and untestable worldview sufficiently similar to what they do, that they feel a sense of kinship with the group as a whole. And are prepared to act to protect the perceived integrity of the guiding idea.

Answering the question using my own definition of 'religion': well, I have no religion and, in the main, I reject all religions -- whether abrahamic, communist, Hutu, north korean or anything else -- as absurd, lethal obscenities.

Aisling&M

I like to keep things simple. I'll tell you what I once read and that is my view of religion.....

Imagine it is your birthday and your family and friends gather around to celebrate your life and existence in their lives. They all give you individual gifts.....maybe a pen, a book, etc etc.....They are all individual gifts, each one totally unlike the next but you love and cherish them all the same because they were all given out of love for you.

This is the way I view religion and religious practices....God (who I do believe exists but not in corporeal form) receives all gifts of worship, be it fasting on Good Friday, partaking in Ramadan or just acknowledging Him/Her/It day to day and being thankful for life........not one is better than the other.....they are all expressions of love and respect and appreciate by God as just that.

I have little rituals and prayers that I love to do but don't subscribe to one particular religion. If I experience a new way and I like it, I may do it myself.

I do think that religion is a concept based on Human complexities and limitations and that God's love is unrestricted and all-inclusive.......far beyond our conceptual ability.

So that is how I look at it......anything we do as an act of good or love or respect is a way of showing our adoration to our life giver and it is received and appreciated with joy and love.

In my opinion, God has no limits........at all........

Son Goku

Atheist, because if religion wasn't such a hot topic the God notion wouldn't be something I'd even think about. Atheism is my more natural state of thought and unless there is a convincing argument I don't see any point in changing.

In essence, why be religious?

Hope that isn't too mundane.

BrianCalgary

Christian

A very simple answer is that I appreciate that God came to Earth, took on the limitations of a man, sacrificed Himself in the way that He did, out of love for me, so that I may have eternal life.

I in turn gave my life to Him and as a bonus I reap the benefits of doing His will in my life.

Asiaprod

robindch wrote:

Couldn't have said it better

You taught me well;)

Zillah

BrianCalgary wrote:

A very simple answer is that I appreciate that God came to Earth, took on the limitations of a man, sacrificed Himself in the way that He did, out of love for me, so that I may have eternal life.

And what is your primary reason for believing that God exists and that Jesus was anything more than a charismatic leader who got executed by the Romans for being an insurgency threat?

Hypothetically, do you believe that if Jesus wasn't the son of God that he could have become the figure he is now through charisma, legend, war and lies?

Many great men have been declared Gods after their deaths, many people have been portrayed as having mystical powers by ancient texts, what makes this man special?

I would propose that the only thing that makes him special is that you happened to have encountered Him first/most.

wolfsbane

DaveMcG said:

What is your religion and why is it the right one?

Answer to the first part: Christianity.
The second part is maybe framed the wrong way. It is the right one because it is the right one, is the pedantic answer. But if you mean, What makes you think it the right one? - then I can provide a few points.

Most importantly, it is revealed to me (and to every true Christian) by God the Holy Spirit. It is an internal awareness of the truth.

Next, it is confirmed by what I have seen of life concerning the nature of man, and in the answers to prayer I have received.

Lastly, it is confirmed by the fulfilled prophecies of the Bible.

Zillah

wolfsbane wrote:

Most importantly, it is revealed to me (and to every true Christian) by God the Holy Spirit. It is an internal awareness of the truth.

Do you realise that the vast majority of devout religious people, such as Hindus, Taoist and Muslims feel an identical sense of inner correctness? This deep, seemingly unfounded knowing of the truth is called faith and would appear to be uniform throughout the religious.

Next, it is confirmed by what I have seen of life concerning the nature of man, and in the answers to prayer I have received.

What about the nature of man has convinced you of the existence of an almighty entity beyond reality?

The things you prayed for, could they have hypothetically occured anyway without divine intervention? Does God always answer your prayers, or just occasionally in what might seem like random chance to a disbeliever?

Lastly, it is confirmed by the fulfilled prophecies of the Bible.

Such as, do you mind my asking?

last_orders

i dunno what i am really, i beleive in god, i beleive that jesus exsisted but he was not the sun of god so that rules out christianity, same goes for mohammad. i suppose i could be called agnostic but im not 100% what that term would cover. if anyone could clarify?
i take the bible as a pinch of salt really, it has some great advice on how to be a good human being and also some ridiculous advice aswell, i suppose i try to live life as a good person as opposed to a good christian/muslim/buddist......and so on.

Zillah

last_orders wrote:

i suppose i could be called agnostic but im not 100% what that term would cover. if anyone could clarify?

Being Agnostic essentially amounts to thinking "I don't know" about the existence of God. You can be along the lines of "God probably exists, but I can't be sure so I'm agnostic" or you can be "This God stuff is very silly, but I suppose I can't be positive."

scorplett

last_orders wrote:

i suppose i could be called agnostic but im not 100% what that term would cover. if anyone could clarify?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism... I know it can be annoying just posting links etc. but Agnostic is a very complex term and can, and is, in proper context and in popular context, used to relate many concepts and modes of thought.

scorplett

Zillah wrote:

Life is too damn short. Well, my life...

Your life is definatley too short to bash every religion, faith or path at every opportuinty you get.

Zillah

scorplett wrote:

Your life is definatley too short to bash every religion, faith or path at every opportuinty you get.

Attack the post, not the poster. I criticise beliefs that I feel are unfounded or irrational. Some (myself included) would argue that life is too short for self-dellusion and fantasy. If you'd like to actually address my points that'd be cool. Or I could just start insulting you if thats what you're after :rolleyes:

The original post in this thread clearly sets it out as a discussion where different beliefs clash, what exactly were you expecting?

Nevyn

Yes where differing beliefs clash or over lap not the questioning of all of them point blankly to be self-dellusion and fantasy this thread and this forum is not set up for you to intergogate people when they are kind enough to share what thier beliefs are.

The spirituality is not the place to push your atheist agenda Zillah.
DaveMcG already requested at the start of the thread And keep it civil -- no eye gouging or fish-hooking!

The charter clearly states

Respect for other people's beliefs and religion is expected at all times, you can disagree with someone or probe into their beliefs without being aggressive or belittling. Such behavior will not be tolerated and may result in being banned.

Consider yourself warned Zillah and stop thread spoiling and putting people off posting.

Zillah

Thaedydal wrote:

DaveMcG already requested at the start of the thread And keep it civil -- no eye gouging or fish-hooking!

I'm not the one making off topic personal comments.

The spirituality is not the place to push your atheist agenda Zillah.

Oh. So some one can push Christianity or Wicca in this discussion but Atheism isn't allowed? Hypocrisy much?

I'm out.

Nevyn

Well then use the report post button.
This thread is not about pushing anything and wicca or any form of paganism has yet to be mentioned.

Dave!

Well my intention WAS about pushing different religions and belief systems! The idea is that if everyone pushes their own belief, inconsistencies and lies will inevitably emerge, and in the end we'll come out with a winner!

Maybe this forum wasn't appropriate for posting the thread... I mean I know that you (Thaedydal) don't want people getting offended in general in the forum, but surely this could be a bit different, and we could even put in a disclaimer in the title, so that people know that they won't be getting an easy ride!

Nevyn

I think it is great to get people sharing and to compare and contrast esp when it comes to the abramahaic relgions but I won't let people be needled or belittled.

Yechidah

I'm a Gnostic and am so because I uphold the main precepts that tend to define Gnosticism (particularly the persuit and acquiral of Gnosis, which is experiential knowledge of the Divine), a religion which answers all of the things that orthodox Christianity doesn't for me. Its liberal approach, including the recognition of the Divine Feminine, as well as the Gnostic Church's allowance of the ordination of women, no oath on celibacy, priests can marry, etc., not to mention non-descrimination on race or sexual orientation, makes them the most fitting for my own personal beliefs and why I am in the process of Formation to being ordained as a Gnostic priest, and can then, hopefully, bring an alternative to Catholicism or Paganism to the Irish people.

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

Scofflaw

I'm an alatrist, a neologism I had to coin to describe my position. I accept there may be gods, but will not worship them (alatrist=non-worshipper).

Functionally - I'm an atheist, at least in a Christian or Muslim country, since I definitely don't believe in Jehovah or Allah as per their descriptions.

Philosphically - I don't exclude the possibility of other gods/spirits/etc, which makes me agnostic, with a slight bias towards belief rather than disbelief. I do know a couple of people who have personally met gods (in the form of oracles), and they are people I consider reliable.

Spiritually - while I admit there may be gods, I am emotionally incapable (AFAIK) of bending the knee to any of them, except perhaps under directly delivered explicit personal threat of annihilation. I can entirely understand the joy of submission, both in Islam and Christianity, but I'm afraid it's not for me, thanks.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Asiaprod

Thaedydal wrote:

I think it is great to get people sharing and to compare and contrast esp when it comes to the abramahaic relgions but I won't let people be needled or belittled.

Seconded, tis a great idea. Its good to see folks of different paths openly talking, and not just pushing agendas. My thanks to the Mods of this forum for letting it happen, and to the OP for a very smart idea.

Asiaprod

Yechidah wrote:

I'm a Gnostic and am so because I uphold the main precepts that tend to define Gnosticism (particularly the persuit and acquiral of Gnosis, which is experiential knowledge of the Divine), a religion which answers all of the things that orthodox Christianity doesn't for me.

Wow, I have always wanted to meet a Gnostic, I am thrilled. When I left Christianity and be came a Buddhist, I carried certain pangs of leaving the religon with me. It was not till I took an interest in Gnosticism that I could finally cut those final bonds.

Nevyn

Scofflaw wrote:

I'm an alatrist, a neologism I had to coin to describe my position. I accept there may be gods, but will not worship them (alatrist=non-worshipper).

Spiritually - while I admit there may be gods, I am emotionally incapable (AFAIK) of bending the knee to any of them, except perhaps under directly delivered explicit personal threat of annihilation. I can entirely understand the joy of submission, both in Islam and Christianity, but I'm afraid it's not for me, thanks.

It is not for me either.

Witches Abroad by Terry Pratchett wrote:

Most witches don't believe in gods.
They know that the gods exist, of course.
They even deal with them occassionally.
But they don't believe in them.
They know them too well.
It would be like believing in the postman.

There are things that I do for my Gods that have to do with love and honouring them or as I have argued and struck a deal with them,
but none of them are to debasing myself to them.
I will doing things in the service of my gods but not out of servitude.

The surrending things onto the gods to sort or fix I never got either,
I believe that as a human if I have a human problem it is for me to fix and that I have the skills or wherewithal to sort it out or hopefully the wisdom to ask for help when it is needed. But I am stuborn and sometimes it takes a kick in the pants or a slap to the back of the head and that my Gods seem to have in no short supply.

I beleive in reincarnation and I try to live my life as aware as I can and to live deliberatly and conciously make choices in my life and to be responsible for my actions and reactions.

I try to be green and recycle and limit my impact on the earth where I can,
nature and the change of seasons is importnat to me and noting and celebrating the changes as they happen ( turning the wheel of the year ).

My beliefs and my path are what works for me in my life, what fills me up and works in harmony with what I know, what I feel and what I have experienced.
I don't expect anyone to completely understand as they are not me.

18AD

I'm yet to find a religion that describes my life experience accurately. The best I can do is mix and match and modify to suit my own needs.
As a result I only dabble in various practices and never delve deeply into one single practice.
I like to hold different views on things a la R.A.W. Sticking to one outlook tends to lead to linear thinking for me.

Currently practicing Chaos Magic whenever I have the time.

General intrigue: Taoism, Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Psychology, Discordianism, Science, Psychedelia, Mythology, Arts...

Intending to incorporate shamanism when I get the chance.

This life style keeps me happy and on my toes. I honestly don't know what's going on in this place but I have my assumptions. I'm probably way off the mark anyway

Nevyn

What aspects of shamanism ?

18AD

Thaedydal wrote:

What aspects of shamanism ?

I've read very little on the actual practice of shamanism. I've only read brief articles about it and its mentioned in a good few books I've read. It's general vibe/aura appeals to me. Journeying, trance states and the gain of information from apparently external/internal consciousness is something I'd like to look into.

Have my eye on a book called The Cosmc Serpent by Jeremy Narby and I'll look into some more practical reads (anything recommended much appreciated).

robindch

> [Scofflaw] I do know a couple of people who have personally met gods (in the form of
> oracles), and they are people I consider reliable.

Can you describe their experiences in any detail? And why it is that you consider them reliable? I'm not saying they're not, I'd just like to understand your viewpoint

Scofflaw

robindch wrote:

> [Scofflaw] I do know a couple of people who have personally met gods (in the form of
> oracles), and they are people I consider reliable.

Can you describe their experiences in any detail? And why it is that you consider them reliable? I'm not saying they're not, I'd just like to understand your viewpoint

Most of them are anthropologists (thus, professional witnesses). My younger brother, in particular, whom I consider pretty reliable as a witness quite outside the professionalism of his chosen field.

The most vivid case in point was a (taped) session with a Tibetan oracle (actually a 40-year old Indian army officer) channelling a minor God (who used to be, I think, one of the abbots of the monastery my brother was staying at). A question had been asked on a point of history (my brother had been asking questions about the monastery's history, and the current abbot suggested they ask the god), and the oracle was replying in some detail. At one point he needed to write something down (in Old Tibetan), and my brother loaned the god his pen (ceremonially handed over on a cushion!). My brother has the privilege of having a god on tape thanking him for the loan of his pen. I have yet to listen to the tape, alas.

I have to consider the combination of a professional witness personally known to me as reliable with a tape as reasonably solid. Although I can think of plenty of other possible explanations for the phenomenon, I cannot a priori rule out the god explanation.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zillah

Scofflaw wrote:

Although I can think of plenty of other possible explanations for the phenomenon, I cannot a priori rule out the god explanation.

So, the evidence is a man talking on a tape...?

Scofflaw

Zillah wrote:

So, the evidence is a man talking on a tape...?

Er, no. The observation would be an Indian Army captain (that is, a non-Tibetan) speaking and writing Old Tibetan while in a trance, having detailed knowledge of the history of a Ladakhi monastery (the events in question being 16th-century, and checking out as far as historical research can cross-check), plus the generally accepted presence of a known god with specified characteristics. Standard mediumistic trance state, with the oracle himself apparently unaware during and after.

cordially,
Scofflaw

joseph dawton

I am a Druid

I've been a Catholic, a Buddhist, I've also looked at Taoism, Wicca, Kabbalah, Islam, Zororasterism and Hinduism fairly extensively and I'd say they are all valid pathways to the divine.

I was always interested in Celtic culture and Wicca seemed to be the closest I could find to it when I was younger, but it didn't sit right with me - too much of a hybrid for my taste. Returning to paganism after many years of studying eastern mysticism I finally found some druids and decent books via a Wiccan High Priestess and I knew it was right for me although I have not thrown out what I have learnt elsewhere.

There is no right answer, only your own. To try and argue that the way I see divinity is more correct than some-one elses is as pointless as arguing that one shade of blue is better than another.

Joseph

ps. Zillah my sympathies!

Nevyn

Lets not get into interpersonal spats it is uncalled for and ungracious.

Scofflaw

Thaedydal wrote:

Lets not get into interpersonal spats it is uncalled for and ungracious.

I take it that this doesn't refer to this:

Zillah wrote:

So, the evidence is a man talking on a tape...?

which I think is a very fair question, because in the absence of reliable witnesses that's exactly what the evidence amounts to. I should also rather put "talking incomprehensibly on a tape", assuming one doesn't speak Old Tibetan, which I don't. My brother, however, does.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Tar.Aldarion

Scofflaw wrote:

I'm an alatrist, a neologism I had to coin to describe my position. I accept there may be gods, but will not worship them (alatrist=non-worshipper).

Functionally - I'm an atheist, at least in a Christian or Muslim country, since I definitely don't believe in Jehovah or Allah as per their descriptions.

Philosphically - I don't exclude the possibility of other gods/spirits/etc, which makes me agnostic, with a slight bias towards belief rather than disbelief. I do know a couple of people who have personally met gods (in the form of oracles), and they are people I consider reliable.

Spiritually - while I admit there may be gods, I am emotionally incapable (AFAIK) of bending the knee to any of them, except perhaps under directly delivered explicit personal threat of annihilation. I can entirely understand the joy of submission, both in Islam and Christianity, but I'm afraid it's not for me, thanks.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I am an alatrist like this but unlike Scofflaw, I am biased on the disbelief side, very far from a centre point.

Mmmm logic.

Tabnabs

Scofflaw wrote:

Most of them are anthropologists (thus, professional witnesses). My younger brother, in particular, whom I consider pretty reliable as a witness quite outside the professionalism of his chosen field.
<snip>

Great anecdote Scofflaw, I have no doubt regarding the authenticity of this story. In many ways it's very similar to the Seidh tradition of Northern Europe.

Asiaprod

Scofflaw wrote:

which I think is a very fair question, because in the absence of reliable witnesses that's exactly what the evidence amounts to.

I would interject here and say that the concept of a God in Asian cultures, as opposed to the concept of a God in western cultures, is very different.

Scofflaw

Asiaprod wrote:

I would interject here and say that the concept of a God in Asian cultures, as opposed to the concept of a God in western cultures, is very different.

Yes, I suspect a lot of our atheist posters (I include myself) are atheist specifically with respect to the Abrahamic gods. Gods as a different type of being, or beingness, I don't find so incomprehensible or as strikingly improbable.

The Abrahamic gods, aside from anything else, tend to be exclusivist and universalist to a degree not found elsewhere.

By the way, I should point out that I don't have an issue with giving respect to a god, or observing appropriate rituals, any more than I would for any other being.

cordially,
Scofflaw

BrianCalgary

Asiaprod wrote:

I would interject here and say that the concept of a God in Asian cultures, as opposed to the concept of a God in western cultures, is very different.

How do you see the two concepts?

hairyheretic

BrianCalgary wrote:

How do you see the two concepts?

I'll take a stab at this one. From my somewhat limited experience of things asian, I believe the term god could be applied to any kind of spirit. You could for example have the god of a particular mountain, river, or perhaps even stream. I'm not sure what kind of 'power level' (for lack of a better term) would be required for the god term to be applied. As well as nature gods you could have gods of a particular city, village, region or one who dealt with a particular aspect of human (or supernatural) affairs.

Asiaprod will probably be able to describe it better, if indeed I am on the right track.

wolfsbane

Zillah said:

Do you realise that the vast majority of devout religious people, such as Hindus, Taoist and Muslims feel an identical sense of inner correctness? This deep, seemingly unfounded knowing of the truth is called faith and would appear to be uniform throughout the religious.

An interesting point. I cannot say, as I came to Christ from a non-religious background. Do any of the non-Christian theists here have that inner certainty about the existence of their god? Or are they just going with what they think a likely option?

Either way, it does not make my claim false. It is true or it is not, whether others have similar experience or not. Indeed, the Bible teaches that many are seduced by evil spirits into following false gods. They would therefore have some sort of inner awareness of the spirit world.

Scofflaw's brother's experience could well be an example of genuine spiritual activity (as opposed to trickery in the cause of profit). The 'god' who possessed the Army officer was a demon, claiming to be an 'ascended master' or similar.

What about the nature of man has convinced you of the existence of an almighty entity beyond reality?

His marvellous complexity as a life-form; his self-awareness and conscience; his wickedness.

The things you prayed for, could they have hypothetically occured anyway without divine intervention?

Yes. Like I could win the lottery every week.

Does God always answer your prayers, or just occasionally in what might seem like random chance to a disbeliever?

Always answers, but not always with Yes. But, no, I doubt any rational man would be comfortable putting them down to random chance.

Such as, do you mind my asking?

The desolation but continuance of the Jewish nation. The extension of the Church to every nation and people. Those are two main ones.

hairyheretic

wolfsbane wrote:

Do any of the non-Christian theists here have that inner certainty about the existence of their god?

Gods, and yes. I've felt more as an asatruar than I ever did as a christian.

Zillah

wolfsbane wrote:

Either way, it does not make my claim false.

Quite correct, but would it not put doubt in the validity of your own personal sense of inner correctness when you realise that lots of people who are wrong (in your opinion) use the exact same justification?

For example, there are ten people in a room. They all disagree on the correct answer to a question put to them. When arguing about it, one of them reveals that his answer came from a red envolope that he got from a friend earlier in the day. He trusts this friend and so believes the answer. It is then revealed that they all have the same friend, and that he gave them all a red envelop, and they are all answering the question based on what was in it.

Why do you trust what your red envelope says? Sure you trust the friend with your life up til now, but the situation you find yourself in should surely make you doubt it?

It is true or it is not, whether others have similar experience or not. Indeed, the Bible teaches that many are seduced by evil spirits into following false gods. They would therefore have some sort of inner awareness of the spirit world.

Same situation. Most religions claim that the Gods of other religions are evil tricksters misleading them from the same path. What makes you so sure the Christian God isn't a trickster from the Hindu pantheon?

His marvellous complexity as a life-form; his self-awareness and conscience; his wickedness.

Are you familiar with evolution? What about it is insufficient to explain these things? Its a well explored subject that has very excellent, well founded explanations for these aspects of a human being.

Yes. Like I could win the lottery every week.

Is winning the lottery every week as statisically likely as the positive answers you've gotten from God? I find it unlikely.

Always answers, but not always with Yes. But, no, I doubt any rational man would be comfortable putting them down to random chance.

I'm fairly rational and I'd probably put them down to chance. Of course I can't be sure unless you'd like to share the specifics.

I'd also observe that your logic appears to be a little bit circular. Wether God answers yes (by giving you what you want) or no (by not giving you what you want), you still take it as an answer. There is no way for a human being to tell if God answers or not, unless the universe stopped existing, as everything is answer of yes or no.

The desolation but continuance of the Jewish nation. The extension of the Church to every nation and people. Those are two main ones.

You might have to lead me by the hand here a little bit, I'm not very familiar with biblical prophecies. Although I think its a bit of a stretch to say the Church has been spread to every nation and people. Christianity is a rather minor cult in most of Asia. The forms of Chrisitianity in Africa barely resemble what we'd consider Christianty. Even in the west there is massive division as to what the correct path is, there are literaly thousands of different sects, in the US especially there are a mind boggling amount of divergent forms, all claiming to be the right one.

As for the Jewish nation, surely the formation and success of Israel has kind of ruined that one? They're a rich and powerful nation that can launch military action against its neighbours with impunity. The Jewish nation is doing better than ever.

wolfsbane

Zillah said:

Quite correct, but would it not put doubt in the validity of your own personal sense of inner correctness when you realise that lots of people who are wrong (in your opinion) use the exact same justification?

For example, there are ten people in a room. They all disagree on the correct answer to a question put to them. When arguing about it, one of them reveals that his answer came from a red envolope that he got from a friend earlier in the day. He trusts this friend and so believes the answer. It is then revealed that they all have the same friend, and that he gave them all a red envelop, and they are all answering the question based on what was in it.

Why do you trust what your red envelope says? Sure you trust the friend with your life up til now, but the situation you find yourself in should surely make you doubt it?

Not when it is confirmed by the other manifestations of His reality - the answered prayer, fulfilled prophecy that I have alluded to.

Same situation. Most religions claim that the Gods of other religions are evil tricksters misleading them from the same path. What makes you so sure the Christian God isn't a trickster from the Hindu pantheon?

As above. But in addition, I observe what is the effect of a sincere adherence to the beliefs of these other religions, and I see superstition, fear, immorality as characteristics. Not the characteristics of true Christianity;
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
Ephesians 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit[a]is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.

Quote:
His marvellous complexity as a life-form; his self-awareness and conscience; his wickedness.

Are you familiar with evolution? What about it is insufficient to explain these things? Its a well explored subject that has very excellent, well founded explanations for these aspects of a human being.

I am indeed familiar with evolution, and I see no credible account for either the complexity of life, conscience, or wickedness arising from it. For a wide-ranging, intense (and becoming repetitive) discussion see this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=316566

Is winning the lottery every week as statisically likely as the positive answers you've gotten from God? I find it unlikely.

Let me put it less statistically: extremely unlikely many times. Beyond any reasonable likelihood.

I'm fairly rational and I'd probably put them down to chance. Of course I can't be sure unless you'd like to share the specifics.

They are very personal, so I'm sorry I can't say more.

I'd also observe that your logic appears to be a little bit circular. Wether God answers yes (by giving you what you want) or no (by not giving you what you want), you still take it as an answer. There is no way for a human being to tell if God answers or not, unless the universe stopped existing, as everything is answer of yes or no.

Not really. If all we got were common events - like our daily bread - then one could say it is no different than for the unbeliever. But when special providences come after our specific prayer for them, that is a definite answer. The 'no' answers are certainly not immediate evidence of God's intervention, but even they on hindsight often can be seen to be God's merciful denial of something that would have proved less helpful or even extremely harmful. The saying is true, Be careful what you pray for, in case you get it.

You might have to lead me by the hand here a little bit, I'm not very familiar with biblical prophecies. Although I think its a bit of a stretch to say the Church has been spread to every nation and people. Christianity is a rather minor cult in most of Asia.

Indeed. But it never was intended to be the majority faith:
Matthew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

The forms of Chrisitianity in Africa barely resemble what we'd consider Christianty.

A lot of so-called Christianity throughout the world is bogus. But in every land there is a company of true believers. I personally know many such in Africa.

Even in the west there is massive division as to what the correct path is, there are literaly thousands of different sects, in the US especially there are a mind boggling amount of divergent forms, all claiming to be the right one.

As I said, there is much false Christianity. But many of the sects/denominations do not claim to be the exclusive holders of the gospel - they confess they are just part of the world-wide body of true believers in Jesus Christ. Many denominations represented, but one True Church. For instance, in my town there are at least five denominations that are solidly Evangelical, and several more that are partly composed of Evangelicals.

As for the Jewish nation, surely the formation and success of Israel has kind of ruined that one? They're a rich and powerful nation that can launch military action against its neighbours with impunity. The Jewish nation is doing better than ever.

Yes, but I was speaking of its history, some 2000 years of exile. The Bible speaks of that ending toward the Last Day:
Luke 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

I'm looking for the conversion of the nation to Christ, as the Bible also confirms for the End:
Romans 11: 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Yechidah

Asiaprod wrote:

Wow, I have always wanted to meet a Gnostic, I am thrilled. When I left Christianity and be came a Buddhist, I carried certain pangs of leaving the religon with me. It was not till I took an interest in Gnosticism that I could finally cut those final bonds.

Glad to meet you

I haven't found many people interested in Gnosticism yet, so the more the merrier, as they say.

I've always likened Gnosticism to be the "Buddhism of the West", and uphold a strong respect for the Eastern variant. Indeed, there are so many similiarities between the two (bar the distinct mythologies, which are still relatively analogous) that I feel portions of each can be used interchangeable where applicable.

I would love to learn more about Buddhism from a practicing follower, so if you are interested, I'd like to continue this discussion off-forum (i.e. MSN, etc.)

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

Asiaprod

Yechidah wrote:

I would love to learn more about Buddhism from a practicing follower, so if you are interested, I'd like to continue this discussion off-forum (i.e. MSN, etc.)

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

Please do, since I live half way around the world PMs are probably best for now. So many ting to talk about, I too see many parallels with Buddhism. If you have time do join us in the Buddhism Forum, I am sure many more of the friends of Buddhism will have lots to ask.
Thanks for the reply.

hairyheretic

wolfsbane wrote:

I observe what is the effect of a sincere adherence to the beliefs of these other religions, and I see superstition, fear, immorality as characteristics.

I could see those words applied equally validly to christianity though. Haven't we seen on the christianity forum fear of that god being refered to as a postive thing?