Seperating The Dogma from the Truth!

babyvaio

Guys, apologies for cutting in between this nice little debate you've been having for some time now, but there are so many indications that the Bible is not the word of God and a claim that the Bible (with all the modifications it contains today) is inspired by God (I mean the Bible now, not the original Gospel given to prophet Jesus) does not hold much water.

I'm sure some of the contradictions below can be easily corrected (whatever word corrected might mean), but I somehow doubt that this can be done for the whole list. One mistake/error in the Scripture makes it unreliable as a source code for religion.


1. Jesus' lineage was traced through David's son Solomon. Mt.1:6.
Jesus' lineage was traced through David's son Nathan. Lk.3:31.

2. The announcement of the special birth came before conception. Lk.1:26-31.
The announcement of the special birth came after conception. Mt.1:18-21.
3. Jesus' parents were told of their son's future greatness. Mt.1:18-21; Lk.1:28-35.
Jesus' parents knew nothing of their son's potential. Lk.2:48-50.
4. The angel told Joseph. Mt.1:20.
The angel told Mary. Lk.1:28.
5. There were 28 generations from David to Jesus. Mt.1:17.
There were 43 generations from David to Jesus. Lk.3:23-31.
6. Jacob was Joseph's father. Mt.1:16.
Heli was Joseph's father. Lk.3:23.
7. He was to be called Emmanuel. Mt.1:23.
He was called Jesus. Mt.1:25.
8. Joseph, Mary, and Jesus flee to Egypt while Herod slaughters all males under 2 years old. Mt.2:13-16. (Note: Jesus' cousin, John, was also under 2 and survived without having to flee.)
Joseph, Mary, and Jesus did not flee to Egypt, but remained for temple rituals. No slaughter of infants is mentioned! Lk.2:21-39.
9. Jesus was tempted during the 40 days in the wilderness. Mk.1:13.
Jesus was tempted after the 40 days in the wilderness. Mt.4:2,3.
10. The devil first took Jesus to the pinnacle, then to the mountain top. Mt.4:5-8.
The devil first took Jesus to the mountain top, then to the pinnacle. Lk.4:5-9.
11. Satan tempted Jesus. Mt.4:1-10; Mk.1:13; Lk.4:1,2.
Satan had no interest in Jesus. Jn.14:30.
12. The baptism of Jesus was with the "Holy Ghost". Mk.1:8; Jn.1:33.
Fire was also added to the baptism. Mt.3:11; Lu.3:16.
13. John knew of Jesus before he baptized him. Mt.3:11-13; Jn.1:28,29.
John knew nothing of Jesus at all. Mt.11:1-3.
14. Jesus begins his ministry after John's arrest. Mk.1:13,14.
Jesus begins his ministry before John's arrest. Jn.3:22-24.
15. It is recorded that Jesus saw the spirit descending. Mt.3:16; Mk.1:10.
It is recorded that John saw the spirit descending. Jn.1:32.
16. The heavenly voice addressed the gathering. Mt.3:17.
The heavenly voice addressed Jesus. Mk.1:11; Lk.3:22.
17. Immediately after the baptism, Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness. Mt.4:1,2; Mk.1:12,13.
Three days after the baptism, Jesus was at the wedding in Cana. Jn.2:1.
18. Jesus went to Bethphage and the Mt. of Olives, then left for Bethany. Mt.21:1,17.
Jesus went to Bethphage and Bethany at the Mt. of Olives. Mk.11:1; Lk.19:29.
Jesus went to Bethany and then Jerusalem. Jn.12:1,12.
19. Jesus and his disciples taught in Capernaum. Mk.1:20,21.
Only Jesus taught in Capernaum. Lk.4:30,31.
20. Peter was chosen, with Andrew, by the Sea of Galilee. Mt.4:18-20; Mk.1:16-18.
Peter was chosen, with James and John, by the lake of Gennesaret. Lk.5:2-11.
Andrew chose Jesus and then got Peter to join. Jn.1:35-42.
21. Peter was to preach to the Jews. Mt.10:2,5,6; Gal.2:7.
Peter was to preach to the Gentiles. Acts 15:7.
22. Jesus cured Simon Peter's mother-in-law after he cleansed the leper. Mt.8:1-15.
Jesus cured Simon Peter's mother-in-law before he cleansed the leper. Mk.1:30-42; Lk.4:38 to 5:13.
23. Peter's mother-in-law was healed before Peter was called to be a disciple. Lu.4:38,39; 5:10.
Peter's mother-in-law was healed after Peter was called to be a disciple. Mt.4:18,19; 8:14,15; Mk.1:16,17,30,31.
24. James and John were with Jesus when he healed Simon Peter's mother-in-law. Mk.1:29-31.
James and John were not with Jesus when he healed Simon Peter's mother-in-law. Lu.4:38,39; 5:10,11.
25. Lebbaeus (Thaddaeus) was the name of an apostle - but no Judas, brother of James. Mt. 10:3.
Judas, the brother of James, was an apostle, but no Thaddaeus. Lk.6:16; Acts 1:13.
26. The centurion's servant was healed in between the cleansing of the leper and the healing of Peter's mother-in-law. Mt.8:2-15.
The centurion's servant was healed after the cleansing of the leper and the healing of Peter's mother-in-law. Lu.4:38,39; 5:12,13; 7:1-10.
27. The people were not impressed with the feeding of the multitude. Mk.6:52.
The people were very impressed with the feeding of the multitude. Jn.6:14.
28. After the feeding of the multitude, Jesus went to Gennesaret. Mk.6:53.
After the feeding of the multitude, Jesus went to Capernaum. Jn.6:14-17.
29. A demon cries out that Jesus is the Holy One of God. Mk.1:23,24.
Everyone who confesses that Jesus came in the flesh is of God. 1 Jn.4:2.
30. Jesus cursed the fig tree so that it would not bear fruit. Mt.21:19; Mk.11:14.
It wasn't time for the fig tree to bear fruit. Mk.11:13.
31. The fig tree withers immediately, and the disciples are amazed. Mt.21:19,20.
The disciples first notice the withered tree the next day. Mk.11:20,21.
32. Jesus is the mediator of the "Father". 1 Tim.2:5; 1 Jn.2:1.
Jesus sits on "his" right hand. Mk. 16:19.
Jesus and the "Father" are one in the same. Jn.10:30.
33. There is one "God". 1 Tim.2:5; Jms.2:19.
There are three. 1 Jn.5:7.
34. Jesus said to honor your father and mother. Mt.15:4; Mt.19:19; Mk.7:10; Mk.10:19; Lk.18:20.
Jesus said that he came to set people against their parents. Mt.10:35-37; Lk.12:51-53; Lk.14:26.
Jesus said to call no man father. Mt.23:9.
35. Jesus/God said, "You fool…". Lk.12:20; Mt.23:17.
Paul calls people fools. 1 Cor.15:36.
Call someone a fool and you go to hell. Mt.5:22.
36. Anger by itself is a sin. Mt.5:22.
But not necessarily. Eph.4:26.
37. Ask and it shall be given. Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened to you. Mt.7:7,8; Lk.11:9,10.
Ask and you shall be refused. Seek and you won't find. Knock and you will be refused entrance. Lk.13:24-27.
38. Do not judge. Mt.7:1,2.
Unless it is necessary, of course. 1 Jn.4:1-3.
39. Jesus is thankful that some things are hidden. Mt.11:25; Mk.4:11,12.
Jesus said that all things should be made known. Mk.4:22.
40. Jesus said that no sign would be given. Mk.8:12.
Jesus said that no sign would be given except for that of Jonas. Mt.12:39; Lk.11:29.
Jesus showed many signs. Jn.20:30; Acts 2:22.
41. Jesus stated that the law was until heaven and earth ended. Mt. 5:17-19.
Jesus stated that the law was only until the time of John. Lk.16:16.
42. The "Sermon on the Mount" took place on the mountain. Mt.5:1.
The "Sermon on the Mount" took place on a plain. Lu.6:17.
43. The "Lord's Prayer" was taught to many during the "Sermon on the Mount". Mt.6:9.
The "Lord's Prayer" was taught only to the disciples at another time. Lu.11:1.
44. Jesus had his own house. Mk.2:15.
Jesus did not have his own house. Lu.9:58.
45. Good works should be seen. Mt.5:16.
Good works should not be seen. Mt.6:1-4.
46. Jesus said that Salvation was only for the Jews. Mt.15:24; Mt.10:5,6; Jn.4:22; Rom.11:26,27.
Paul said that salvation was also for the Gentiles. Acts 13:47,48.
47. Repentance is necessary. Acts 3:19; Lu.3:3.
Repentance is not necessary. Rom.11:29.
48. Non-believers obtain mercy. Rom.11:32.
Only believers obtain mercy. Jn.3:36; Rom.14:23.
Only baptized believers obtain mercy. Mk.16:16.
Mercy cannot be predetermined. Rom.9:18.
49. All who call on the "Lord" will be saved. Rom.10:13; Acts 2:21.
Only those predestined will be saved. Acts 13:48; Eph.1:4,5; 2 Thes.2:13; Acts 2:47.
50. Jesus said he would not cast aside any that come to him. Jn.6:37.
Jesus said that many that come to him will be cast aside. Mt.7:21-23.
51. Salvation comes by faith and not works. Eph.2:8,9; Rom.11:6; Gal.2:16; Rom.3:28.
Salvation comes by faith and works. Jms.2:14,17,20.
52. The righteous have eternal life. Mt.25:46.
The righteous are barely saved. 1 Pet.4:18.
There are no righteous. Rom.3:10.
53. Believe and be baptized to be saved. Mk.16:16.
Be baptized by water and the spirit to be saved. Jn.3:5.
Endure to the end to be saved. Mt.24:13.
Call on the name of the "Lord" to be saved. Acts 2:21; Rom.10:13.
Believe in Jesus to be saved. Acts 16:31.
Believe, then all your household will be saved. Acts 16:31.
Hope and you will be saved. Rom.8:24.
Believe in the resurrection to be saved. Rom.10:9.
By grace you are saved. Eph.2:5
By grace and faith you are saved. Eph.2:8.
Have the love of truth to be saved. 2 Thes.2:10.
Mercy saves. Titus 3:5.
54. Backsliders are condemned. 2 Pet.2:20.
Backsliders are saved regardless. Jn.10:27-29.
55. Forgive seventy times seven. Mt.18:22.
Forgiveness is not possible for renewed sin. Heb.6:4-6.
56. Divorce, except for unfaithfulness, is wrong. Mt.5:32.
Divorce for any reason is wrong. Mk.10:11,12.
57. Jesus approved of destroying enemies. Lk.19:27.
Jesus said to love your enemies. Mt.5:44.
58. God resides in heaven. Mt.5:45; Mt.6:9; Mt.7:21.
Angels reside in heaven. Mk.13:32.
Jesus is with God in heaven. Acts 7:55,56
Believers go to heaven. 1 Pet.1:3,4.
Heaven will pass away. Mt.24:35; Mk.13:31; Lk.21:33.
59. Pray that you don't enter temptation. Mt.26:41.
Temptation is a joy. Jms.1:2.
60. God leads you into temptation. Mt.6:13.
God tempts no one. Jms.1:13.
61. Take no thought for tomorrow. God will take care of you. Mt.6:25-34; Lk.12:22-31.
A man who does not provide for his family is worse than an infidel. 1 Tim.5:8.
62. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Acts 2:21; Rom.10:13.
Not everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Mt.7:21.
Only those whom the Lord chooses will be saved. Acts 2:39.
63. We are justified by works and not by faith. Mt.7:21; Rom.2:6,13; Jms.2:24.
We are justified by faith and not by works. Jn.3:16; Rom.3:27; Eph.2:8,9.; Gal.2:16.
64. Do not take sandals (shoes) or staves. Mt.10:10.
Take only sandals (shoes) and staves. Mk.6:8,9.
65. Jesus said that in him there was peace. Jn.16:33.
Jesus said that he did not come to bring peace. Mt.10:34; Lk.12:51.
66. Jesus said that John the Baptist was a prophet and Elijah. Mt.11:9; Mt.17:12,13.
John said that he was not a prophet nor was he Elijah. Jn.1:21.
67. Jesus said that he was meek and lowly. Mt.11:29.
Jesus makes whips and drives the moneychangers out from the temple. Mt. 21:12; Mk.11:15,16; Jn.2:15.
68. Jesus said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees". Lk.12:1.
Jesus said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees". Mt.16:6,11.
Jesus said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Herod". Mk.8:15.
69. Jesus founds his church on Peter. Mt.16:18.
Jesus calls Peter "Satan" and a hindrance. Mt.16:23.
70. The mother of James and John asks Jesus to favor her sons. Mt.20:20,21.
They ask for themselves. Mk.10:35-37.
71. Jesus responds that this favor is not his to give. Mt.20:23; Mk.10:40.
Jesus said that all authority is given to him. Mt.28:18; Jn.3:35.
72. Jesus heals two unnamed blind men. Mt.20:29,30.
Jesus heals one named blind man. Mk.10:46-52.
73. Jesus healed all that were sick. Mt.8:16; Lk.4:40.
Jesus healed many that were sick - but not all. Mk.1:34.
74. The council asks Jesus if he is the Son of God. Lk.22:70. The high priest asks Jesus if he is the Christ, the Son of God. Mt.26:63.
The high priest asks Jesus if he is the Christ the Son of the Blessed. Mk.14:61.
The high priest asks Jesus about his disciples and his doctrine. Jn.18:19.
75. Jesus answers to the effect of “You said it, not me”. Mt.26:64; Lk.22:70.
Jesus answers definitely, “I am”. Mk.14:62.
76. At the Mount of Olives, Jesus told Peter he would deny him three times. Mt.26:30-34.
At the Passover meal, Jesus told Peter he would deny him three times. Lu.22:13,14,34.
77. Peter was to deny Jesus before the cock crowed. Mt.26:34; Lk.22:34; Jn.13:38.
Peter was to deny Jesus before the cock crowed twice. Mk.14:30.
78. The cock crowed once. Mt.26:74.
The cock crowed twice. Mk.14:72.
79. Peter makes his first denial to a maid and some others. Mt.26:69,70.
It was only to the maid. Mk.14:66-68; Lk.22:56,57; Jn.18:17.
80. Peter’s second denial was to another maid. Mt.26:71,72.
It was to the same maid. Mk.14:69,70.
It was to a man and not a maid. Lk.22:58.
It was to more than one person. Jn.18:25.
81. Peter’s third denial was to several bystanders. Mt.26:73,74; Mk.14:69,70.
It was to one person. Lk.22:59,60.
It was to a servant. Jn.18:26,27.
82. The chief priests bought the field. Mt.27:6,7.
Judas bought the field. Acts 1:16-19.
83. Judas threw down the money and left. Mt.27:5.
Judas used the coins to buy the field. Acts 1:18.
84. Judas hanged himself. Mt.27:5.
Judas fell headlong and burst his head open. Acts 1:18.
85. Jesus did not answer any of the charges. Mt.27:12-14; Lk.23:9.
Jesus answered some of the charges. Mk.14:61,62.
Jesus answered all of the charges. Jn.18:33-37.
86. Jesus said that eternal life would be given to all that were given to him. Jn.11:27-29; Jn.17:12.
Jesus released Judas in order to keep this promise. Jn.18:5-9.
87. The chief priests and elders persuade the people. Mt.27:20.
Only the chief priests persuade the people. Mk.15:11.
The chief priests and the people persuade themselves. Lk.23:13-23.
88. Jesus is given a scarlet robe. Mt.27:28.
Jesus is given a purple robe. Mk.15:17; Jn.19:2.
Jesus is given a gorgeous robe. Lk.23:11.
89. The sign says, “This is Jesus the King of the Jews”. Mt.27:37.
The sign says, “The King of the Jews”. Mk.15:26.
In three languages, the sign says, “This is the King of the Jews”. Lk.23:38.
In the same three languages, the sign says, “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews”. Jn.19:19,20.
90. Jesus asks God, The Father, why he has forsaken him. Mt.27:46.
Jesus said that he and The Father were one in the same. Jn.10:30; Jn.17:11,21,22.
91. The centurion says, “Truly this was the son of God”. Mt.27:54.
The centurion says, “Truly this man was the son of God”. Mk.15:39.
The centurion says, “Certainly, this was a righteous man”. Lk.23:47.
There was no centurion. Jn.19:31-37.
92. Jesus was crucified at the third hour. Mk.15:25.
Jesus was still before Pilate at the sixth hour. Jn.19:13,14.
93. The women looked on from “afar”. Mt.27:55; Mk.15:40; Lk.23:49.
The women were very close. Jn.19:25.
94. The last recorded words of Jesus were:
Version 1: “Eli, Eli …My God, My God why have you forsaken me” Mt.27:46.
Version 2: “Eloi, Eloi…My God, My God why have you forsaken me” Mk.15:34.
Version 3: “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit”. Lk.23:46.
Version 4: “It is finished”. Jn.19:30.
95. A guard was placed at the tomb the day after the burial. Mt.27:65,66.
No guard is mentioned. Mk.15:44-47; Lk.23:52-56; Jn.19:38-42.
96. Only those keeping the words of Jesus will never see death. Jn.8:51.
Jesus’ disciples will be killed. Mt.24:3-9.
All men die once. Heb.9:27.
97. Upon their arrival, the stone was still in place. Mt.28:1 2.
Upon their arrival, the stone had been removed. Mk.16:4; Lk.24:2; Jn.20:1.
98. There was an earthquake. Mt.28:2.
There was no earthquake. Mk.16:5; Lk.24:2-4; Jn.20:12.
99. The visitors ran to tell the disciples. Mt.28:8.
The visitors told the eleven and all the rest. Lk.24:9.
The visitors said nothing to anyone. Mk.16:8.
100. Jesus first resurrection appearance was right at the tomb. Jn.20:12-14.
Jesus first resurrection appearance was fairly near the tomb. Mt.28:8,9.
Jesus first resurrection appearance was on the road to Emmaus. Lk.24:13-16.
101. One doubted. Jn.20:24.
Some doubted. Mt.28:17.
All doubted. Mk.16:11; Lk.24:11,14.
102. Jesus said that his blood was shed for many. Mk.14:24.
Jesus said his blood was shed for his disciples. Lu.22:20.
103. Simon of Cyrene was forced to bear the cross of Jesus. Mt.27:32; Mk.15:21; Lu.23:26.
Jesus bore his own cross. Jn.19:16,17.
104. Jesus was offered vinegar and gall to drink. Mt.27:34.
Jesus was offered vinegar to drink. Jn.19:29,30.
Jesus was offered wine and myrrh to drink. Mk.15:23.
105. Jesus refused the drink offered him. Mk.15:23.
Jesus tasted the drink offered and then refused. Mt.27:34.
Jesus accepted the drink offered him. Jn.19:30.
106. Both “thieves” mocked Jesus on the cross. Mt. 27:44; Mk.15:32.
One “thief” sided with Jesus on the cross. Lu.23:39-41.
107. Joseph of Arimathaea boldly asked for the body of Jesus. Mk.15:43.
Joseph of Arimathaea secretly asked for the body of Jesus. Jn.19:38.
108. Jesus was laid in a nearby tomb. Mk.15:46; Lu.23:53; Jn.19:41.
Jesus was laid in Joseph’s new tomb. Mt.27:59,60.
109. A great stone was rolled in front of the tomb. Mt.27:60; Mk.15:46.
There was nothing in front of the tomb. Lu.23:55; Jn.19:41.
110. Nicodemus prepared the body with spices. Jn.19:39,40.
Failing to notice this, the women bought spices to prepare the body later. Mk. 16:1; Lu.23:55,56.
111. The body was anointed. Jn.19:39,40.
The body was not anointed. Mk.15:46 to 16:1; Lk.23:55 to 24:1.
112. The women bought materials before the sabbath. Lu.23:56.
The women bought materials after the sabbath. Mk.16:1.
113. Jesus was first seen by Cephas, then the twelve. 1 Cor.15:5.
Jesus was first seen by the two Marys. Mt.28:1,8,9.
Jesus was first seen by Mary Magdalene. Mk.16:9; Jn.20:1,14,15.
Jesus was first seen by Cleopas and others. Lu.24:17,18.
Jesus was first seen by the disciples. Acts 10:40,41.
114. The two Marys went to the tomb. Mt.28:1.
The two Marys and Salome went to the tomb. Mk.16:1.
Several women went to the tomb. Lu.24:10.
Only Mary Magdalene went to the tomb. Jn.20:1.
115. It was dawn when Mary went to the tomb. Mt.28:1; Mk.16:2.
It was dark when Mary went to the tomb. Jn.20:1.
116. An angel sat on the stone at the door of the tomb. Mt.28:2.
A man was sitting inside the tomb. Mk.16:5.
117. Two men were standing inside the tomb. Lk.24:3,4.
Two angels were sitting inside the tomb. Jn.20:12.
118. Peter did not go into the tomb but stooped and looked inside. Lk.24:12.
Peter did go into the tomb, and another disciple stooped and looked inside. Jn.20:3-6.
119. After the resurrection, the disciples held Jesus by the feet. Mt.28:9.
After the resurrection, Jesus told Thomas to touch his side. John 20:27.
After the resurrection, Jesus said that he was not to be touched. Jn.20:17.
120. Mary first saw Jesus at the tomb. Jn.20:11-15.
Mary first saw Jesus on her way home. Mt.28:8-10.
121. The women entered the tomb. Mk.16:5; Lk.24:3.
The women stayed outside the tomb. Jn.20:11.
122. The disciples were frightened when they saw Jesus. Lk.24:36,37.
The disciples were glad when they first saw Jesus. Jn.20:20.
123. Twelve disciples saw Jesus. 1 Cor.15:5.
Eleven disciples saw Jesus. Thomas was not there. Mt.28:16,17; Jn.20:19-25.
124. The disciples doubted that Jesus had risen from the dead. Mt.28:17.
The Pharisees and chief priests believed it possible. Mt.27:62-66.
125. Jesus ascended on the third day after the resurrection. Lk.24:21,50,51.
Jesus ascended the same day as the crucifixion. Lk.23:42 43.
Jesus ascended forty days after the resurrection. Acts 1:3,9.
126. At the time of the ascension, there were about 120 brethren. Acts 1:15.
At the time of the ascension, there were about 500 brethren. 1 Cor.15:6.
127. The moneychangers incident occurred at the end of Jesus’ career. Mt.21:11,12.
The moneychangers incident occurred at the beginning of Jesus’ career. Jn.2:11-15.
128. Zacharias was the son of Jehoida, the priest. 2 Chr.24:20.
Jesus said that Zacharias was the son of Barachias. Mt.23:35. (Note: The name Barachias or Barachiah does not appear in the OT.)
129. The coming of the kingdom will be accompanied by signs and miracles. Mt.24:29-33; Mk.13:24-29.
It will not be accompanied by signs and miracles since it occurs from within. Lk.17:20,21.
130. The kingdom was prepared from the beginning. Mt.25:34.
Jesus said that he was going to go and prepare the kingdom. Jn.14:2,3.
131. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin. Mk.3:29.
All sins are forgivable. Acts 13:39; Col.2:13; 1 Jn.1:9.
132. The ascension took place while the disciples were seated together at a table. Mk.16:14-19.
The ascension took place outdoors at Bethany. Lk.24:50,51.
The ascension took place outdoors at Mt. Olivet. Acts 1:9-12.
133. The holy spirit was with John from before he was born. Lk.1:15,41.
The holy spirit was with Elizabeth before John’s birth. Lk.1:41.
The holy spirit was with Zechariah. Lk.1:67.
The holy spirit was with Simeon. Lk.2:25.
The holy spirit is obtained by asking. Lk.11:13.
The holy spirit did not come into the world until after Jesus had departed. Jn.7:39; Jn.16:7; Acts 1:3-8.
134. Sometimes God is responsible for unbelief. 2 Thes.2:11,12.
Sometimes Jesus is responsible for unbelief. Mk.4:11,12.
The devil causes unbelief. Lk.8:12.
135. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer. 1 Jn.3:15.
If anyone claims to love God but hates his brother, he is a liar. 1 Jn.4:20.
No one can be a disciple of Jesus unless he hates his brother. Lk.14:26.
136. Believers do not come into judgment. Jn.5:24.
All people come into judgment. Mt.12:36; 2 Cor.5:10; Heb.9:27; 1 Pet.1:17; Jude 14,15; Rev.20:12,13.
137. Jesus says that, if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is true. Jn.8:14.
Jesus says that, if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is not true. Jn.5:31.
138. Men can choose whether or not to believe. Jn.5:38-47.
Only God chooses who will believe. Jn.6:44.
139. None of Jesus’ followers would be lost. Jn.10:27-29.
Some of Jesus’ followers would be lost. 1 Tim.4:1.
140. Jesus is the ruling prince of this world. Rev.1:5.
The prince of this world will be cast out. Jn.12:31.
141. Jesus says all men will be saved. Jn.3:17.
Only 144,000 virgin men will be saved. Rev. 14:1-4.
142. God wants all men to be saved. 1 Tim.2:3,4; 2 Pet.3:9.
God does not want all men to be saved. Jn.12:40.
143. Peter asks Jesus where he is going. Jn.13:36.
Thomas asks Jesus where he is going. Jn.14:5.
Jesus said that no one asked where he was going. Jn.16:5.
144. Jesus lost only one disciple. Jn.17:12.
Jesus lost no disciples. Jn.18:9.
145. Jesus came into the world to bear witness to the truth. Jn.18:37.
The truth has always been evident. Rom.1:18-20.
146. During his first resurrection appearance, Jesus gave his disciples the holy spirit. Jn.20:22.
The holy spirit was given to the disciples after his ascension. Acts 1:3-8.
147. The world could not contain all that could be written of Jesus. Jn.21:25.
All was written. Acts.1:1.
148. Obey the laws of men for it is the will of God. 1 Pet.2:13-15.
The disciples disobey the council. Acts 5:40-42.
149. Obey God, not men. Acts 5:29.
Obey men. It is God’s will. Rom.13:1-4; 1 Pet.2:13-15.
150. God hated Esau and loved Jacob even before they were born. Rom.9:10-13.
God shows no partiality and treats all alike. Acts 10:34; Rom.2:11.
151. All who have sinned without the law will perish without the law. Rom.2:12.
Where there is no law there is no sin or transgression. Rom.4:15.
152. Doers of the law will be justified. Rom.2:13.
Doers of the law will not be justified. Rom.3:20; Gal.3:11.
153. The law has dominion. Rom.7:1.
The law does not have dominion. Rom.6:14.
154. The law was the result of sin. Gal.3:19.
Sin is the result of breaking the law. 1 Jn.3:4.
155. Those of “God” cannot sin. 1 Jn.3:9.
Those of “God” can sin. 1 Jn.1:7 8.
156. The anointing of Jesus teaches right from wrong. 1 Jn.2:27.
The law written on the heart and conscience teaches right from wrong. Rom.2:15.
157. Abraham was justified by faith. Heb.11:8.
Abraham was justified by works. Jms.2:21.
Abraham was not justified by works. Rom.4:2.
158. It is not good to eat or drink anything that might cause your brother to stumble or be offended. Rom.14:21.
Let no one pass judgment on you in matters of food or drink. Col.2:16.
159. It is better that widows should not remarry. 1 Cor.7:8.
It is better that young widows should remarry. 1 Tim.5:11-14.
160. The god of this world blinds people to the gospel. 2 Cor.4:4.
There is only one god. 1 Cor.8:4.
161. The powers of this world are wicked, so fight against them. Eph.6:11-13.
All powers are ordained of God and, if you resist, you are damned. Rom.13:1,2.
162. Bear one another’s burdens. Gal.6:2.
Bear your own burdens. Gal.6:5.
163. Anyone who even greets a non-believer shares his wicked work. 2 Jn.10,11.
Always be ready to answer any man concerning your faith. 1 Pet.3:15.
164. All of the grass on the earth is burned up. Rev.8:7.
The army of locusts are instructed not to harm the grass. Rev.9:4.
165. Only “The Father” knows. Mk.13:32.
“Jesus” and “The Father” are one. Jn.10:30; 17:11,21,22.
166. Jesus said that he would judge. Jn.5:22,27-30; Jn.9:39.
Jesus said that he would not judge. Jn.8:15; Jn.12:47.
Jesus said that The Father judges. Jn.12:48,49.
Jesus said that The Father does not judge. Jn.5:22.
Jesus said that his disciples would judge. Lk.22:30.
167. He that does not believe is damned. Mk.16:16.
Thomas did not believe and was not damned. Jn.20:27-29.
168. “When his branch is yet tender”. Mt.24:32.
“When her branch is yet tender”. Mk.13:28.
169. Jesus is God. Jn.10:30.
Jesus is the “image” of God. 2 Cor.4:4.
Jesus was a man approved by God. Acts 2:22.
170. Jesus and God are one in the same. Jn.1:1.
Jesus is beside himself. Mk.16:19; Acts 2:32,33; 7:55; Rom.8:34; etc.
171. Jesus is the Son of God. Jn.6:69; Jn.20:31.
Jesus is the Son of Man. Mt.18:11; Lk.21:27.
172. Paul states that he does not lie. Rom.9:1; 2 Cor.11:31; Gal.1:20; 1 Tim.2:7.
Paul states that he does lie. Rom.3:7.
173. Paul said that he does not use trickery. 1 Thes.2:3.
Paul admits to using trickery. 2 Cor.12:16.
174. Paul says that circumcision is nothing. 1 Cor.7:19.
Paul says that circumcision is profitable. Rom.2:25; Rom.3:1,2.
175. Do not covet. Rom.7:7; Rom.13:9.
Paul says covet. 1 Cor.12:31; 1 Cor.14:39.
176. Paul teaches not to steal. Eph.4:28.
Paul admits to stealing. 2 Cor.11:8.
177. Paul was assured that he would not be hurt. Acts 18:9,10.
Paul was often physically abused. 2 Cor.11:23-27.
178. Paul states that the law is necessary. Rom.3:31.
Paul states that the law is not necessary. Rom.6:14.
179. Jesus said to go and baptize. Mt.28:19.
Paul said he was not sent to baptize. 1 Cor.1:17.
180. Paul said he was not sent to baptize but to preach. 1 Cor.1:17.
Paul baptized. 1 Cor.1:16.
181. Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law. Mt.5:17-19.
Paul said otherwise. Eph.2:15.
182. Jesus said that God did not condemn the world. Jn. 3:17.
Paul said that God did condemn the world. Rom.5:18.
183. Those present at Paul’s conversion stood. Acts 9:7.
They fell to the ground. Acts 26:14.
184. Those present at Paul’s conversion heard a voice but saw nothing. Acts 9:7.
Those present at Paul’s conversion saw a light but heard nothing. Acts 22:9.
185. Shortly after his conversion, Paul went to Damascus where he spent some time with the apostles. Acts 9:19.
Paul went to Damascus three years later and saw only Peter and James. Gal.1:18,19.
186. Shortly after his conversion, Paul went to Damascus and then to Jerusalem. Acts 9:18-26.
Shortly after his conversion, Paul went to Arabia, then to Damascus, and then, 3 years later, to Jerusalem. Gal.1:17,18.
187. In Damascus, the governor attempts to seize Paul. 2 Cor.11:32.
In Damascus, the Jews attempt to seize Paul. Acts 9:22,23.
188. The holy spirit forbids preaching in Asia. Acts 16:6.
Paul preaches in Asia anyway. Acts 19:8-10.
189. Paul said he would not be a servant of Christ if he tried to please men. Gal.1:10.
Paul said that he tried to please men. 1 Cor.10:33.
190. Paul says that he was the chief of all sinners. 1 Tim.1:15.
He who commits sin is of the devil. Children of God cannot sin. 1 Jn.3:8-10.
191. Paul said that Jesus is the judge. 2 Tim.4:1.
Paul said that God is the judge. Heb.12:23.
Paul said that the saints would judge. 1 Cor.6:2.
192. Paul said that Jesus was the Son of God. Rom.1:3,4.
Paul said that Jesus was just a man. Heb.7:24.
193. Do not boast. Lk.18:14.
Do not be proud. Rom.11:20; 1 Pet. 5:5.
Paul proudly boasts. 2 Cor.11:16-18; Gal.2:9-11.
194. Jesus commends the church at Ephesus for discerning the lying apostles. Rev. 2:1,2.
Paul was the apostle to Ephesus. Eph.1:1.

robindch

> there are so many indications that the Bible is not the word of God

We agree! You can find a much longer list of problems here:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

For completeness, they've also included a list of problems in the qu'ran:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

babyvaio

robindch wrote:

> there are so many indications that the Bible is not the word of God

We agree! You can find a much longer list of problems here:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

For completeness, they've also included a list of problems in the qu'ran:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

I saw the 2nd link, a few quick looks shows that a completely Islam-ignorant person tried to put together some accusations, which do not hold water. Besides that, the author of the accusations doesn't show much of a common sense and it is obvious that logic is alien to the author.

For example (and I'm not going further into this), they state this:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/merciful.html

Is Allah kind and merciful?

Then the guy takes out a few verses supporting Yes and some verses - in his own imagination - supporting No, He is not merciful.

I mean, they are coming to conclusion that He cannot be merciful just because at the same time, i.e. Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment.

What is the problem with that? Nothing. The problem is with the nonbelievers, they don't want to believe, they are not looking for the truth, so why would then they object if Allah seals their hearings and their hearts (as quoted in the verse below in bold)? So, they don't want to be guided, they're not asking for guidance, and yet they complain and complain and they even think it's something wrong woth God and not with themselves.

Almighty is not unjust to them, they themselves are being unjust to themselves.

Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering.

The accusation is very naive and primitive since a simple analogy like explained below shows how dumb the accusation is.

For example: People know me as a chatty person, a real talker, however when somebody sees that I'm not really chatty for a day or just a few hours a day, then he concludes that I cannot be chatty.

I mean, get real.

robindch

> "Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As
> often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins tha
> they may taste the torment." What is the problem with that? Nothing.

Do I understand correctly that you believe it's ok for the qu'ran to legitimate the burning of people who do not believe the qu'ran? And that you therefore also think that it's ok for people who believe the qu'ran to burn people who don't believe it?

> The problem is with the nonbelievers, they don't want to believe [...]

And do I understand from you correctly here that you think it's a "problem" I don't want to believe the qu'ran (fyi, because I see so many basic problems with it), and that it therefore could be a worse "problem" that I therefore don't actually believe the qu'ran?

> yet they complain and complain and they even think it's something wrong
> woth God and not with themselves.

I do not believe that there's "something wrong with God". But I do believe that there's something very badly wrong indeed with uncritical belief and the use of old books to legitimate violence and prejudice (the talmud, bible, qu'ran etc), to dictate geopolitical reality (the talmud, bible, qu'ran etc), etc, etc, etc.

Wibbs

babyvaio wrote:

For example (and I'm not going further into this), they state this:

Why do you expect Christians to "go further" into your critique of their holy books, yet you repeatedly refuse to do the same for yours(save for that one example)?

Zombrex

babyvaio wrote:

I saw the 2nd link, a few quick looks shows that a completely Islam-ignorant person tried to put together some accusations, which do not hold water. Besides that, the author of the accusations doesn't show much of a common sense and it is obvious that logic is alien to the author.

Lol

Thats exactly what the Christians say about the Bible.

It seems that is you are a true believer there is always a way to get around or explain away and contradictions or errors in your holy book.

babyvaio

Wibbs wrote:

Why do you expect Christians to "go further" into your critique of their holy books, yet you repeatedly refuse to do the same for yours(save for that one example)?

Not talkin' to you Wibby. Your posts are not multi-dimensional but only in your mind.

Zombrex

babyvaio wrote:

What is the problem with that? Nothing.

Its isn't particularly merciful now is it.

Its a bit like the Christians claiming "God is Love" ... was that before or after he genocided the entire human race with a massive flood because he didn't like the look of it?

babyvaio wrote:

Almighty is not unjust to them, they themselves are being unjust to themselves.

That is the argument used all the time by both Christians and Muslims.

Using the Flood example above, a Christian (or Muslim, not sure how they fold the flood) would claim that God is still love and it was out of love that he destroyed humanity because we brought it on ourselfs.

What happens is you end up with perverting the concept of something like "love" or "mercy" to fit it around the actions of your god.

It is like a battered wife who convinces herself that her husband must really really love her to get so jealous that he beats her to a bloody pulp when she talks to the post man for too long, and that he has every right to do so because she brings it on herself for misbehaving. In her mind he always loves her, but if he beats her it is because she has done something wrong. But to an outsider we would not call that love at all, nor would we think he has the right to beat her even if she does do something wrong.

babyvaio wrote:

For example: People know me as a chatty person, a real talker, however when somebody sees that I'm not really chatty for a day or just a few hours a day, then he concludes that I cannot be chatty.

It would be more like saying Wicknight is a kind and gentle person, who never loses his temper or raises his voice. Except when he is screaming at his wife and children and beating the crap out of them because the dinner is cold.

Now if you knew all the facts would you still call Wicknight a kind and gentle person?

(btw I don't beat my wife. I don't even have a wife.)

ISAW

babyvaio wrote:

You speak well Wolfy (hope you don't mind the nickname? ) about certain things (I particularly meant your last 3 posts in this thread). It is about the belief and good works.

Careful! you may open a whole can of worms there. One HUGE different between Protestants and traditional Christians was the great debate about whether salvation was by faith alone or by faith and good works.

Your way of thinking is actually very close to the way Lord defined things with Islam. You would - God Willing - make a good Muslim.

Indeed all of the historical stories in the Koran (and with more stories and with more detail) are in the Bible. So a lot would be common.

The only thing is to correct your belief. Since you know your Scripture well, I hope you will find - God Willing - in time - who Jesus really was. If that happens, and I honestly hope so, you will love him the right way and even more that you love him today. May Almighty guides you to the True Path.

But not all christians insist one must follow the Bible as a fundemental text. there is also the parallel oral tradition. One may find christ without scripture. All the early Christians did.

babyvaio

ISAW wrote:

Indeed all of the historical stories in the Koran (and with more stories and with more detail) are in the Bible. So a lot would be common.

I had no idea that your knowledge of the Qur'an is so impressive as you claim. You're too young to have so comprehensive knowledge of the Qur'an anyway.
All of the historical stories in the Qur'an are not also in the Bible as far as I know. For some stories you could say they have a common foundation.

There is also a big difference in who the author is: the Qur'an is purely God's Word while the Bible may have some of His Words.

Zombrex

babyvaio wrote:

There is also a big difference in who the author is: the Qur'an is purely God's Word while the Bible may have some of His Words.

My book is the word of God
No, my book is the word of God
No I think you are mistaken, my book is clearly the word of God
Oh I think not, my book is certainly the word of God

Well this is going no where fast ...

babyvaio

Wicknight wrote:

My book is the word of God
No, my book is the word of God
No I think you are mistaken, my book is clearly the word of God
Oh I think not, my book is certainly the word of God

Well this is going no where fast ...

Arrogance is your first, not middle, name.

BTW, what happened to the original idea of this thread?
If you want to discuss the Qur'an then open a new thread in Islam section.

Wibbs

Wicky wrote:

It seems that is you are a true believer there is always a way to get around or explain away and contradictions or errors in your holy book.

Seems is too short a word for it. BTW may I call you wicky? Theres a trend afoot and I thought I should get in on the ground floor.

baby wrote:

Not talkin' to you Wibby. Your posts are not multi-dimensional but only in your mind.

And your replies to any critque are one dimensional at best.

Let's look at it another way. Your sig. It quite deliberately states that in your opinion that Jesus was "just" a man/Prophet created from dust. Can you see how that might offend Christians? It's an honest question. Can you imagine if a Christian had a sig that stated "beware of false Prophets, I am the way and the truth, only through me..." etc and posted questions like yours in a Muslim forum and stated(as it should be their right to do) that in their opinion Mohammed was a false Prophet and that those who followed him may burn in hell as unbelievers? This is pretty much what you're saying from your point of view. What would happen in the Islam forum if a Christian stated the same things as you do? Would he be banned*? There seems to be a double standard at play here. You feel free to bait and insult the kaffir, but get feirce twitchy when any hard questions are levelled at your limited world view. You seem particularly blind to the insult you may cause among non muslims, in particular Christians. How does this help your cause?

ISAWy wrote:

Indeed all of the historical stories in the Koran (and with more stories and with more detail) are in the Bible. So a lot would be common.

Given that it copied/was inspired by Christianity/Judaism, just like Christianity took along a lot of Judaism, it's not too surprising.

baby wrote:

There is also a big difference in who the author is: the Qur'an is purely God's Word while the Bible may have some of His Words.

Or it's a collection of Mohammed's and others words if you're a Christian or anyone else not a muslim. I dare say some right wing Christians would be saying it's Satans words. Now take a deep breath and consider what you feel reading the last sentence. That's what some Christians are feeling when you state their book is largely false.

Wicky wrote:

Well this is going no where fast ...

You noticed that? Thought it was just me.

baby wrote:

Arrogance is your first, not middle, name.

Muhahahha. Unreal. The farce is strong in this statement. Maybe it's Arrogy..

BTW, what happened to the original idea of this thread?

Yes how did it get so derailed. Refresh my memory. That said it's as good example of dogma as I've seen in a while.

If you want to discuss the Qur'an then open a new thread in Islam section.

Yes, good idea. It would be interesting to see how long it would last when compared to here, especially if similar accusations were levelled at it by non believers.


* I suspect the new mr wouldn't start banning willynilly in fairness.

Zombrex

babyvaio wrote:

BTW, what happened to the original idea of this thread?

The original idea of this thread is seperating the dogma from the truth.

And the truth is that it is only your opinion, or the some christians opinions, that your Qu'ran, or their Bible, is the infailable word of god. There is as much evidence to support that it isn't as there is to support that it is.

In the end it all just boils down to what you believe anyway, and how you interpret things based on that belief. It is as valid to be a Christian who doesn't believe in the infailable nature of the Bible as it is to be a Christian who does believe in the infailable nature of the Bible. Same goes for Muslims and the Qu'ran.

ISAW

babyvaio wrote:

I had no idea that your knowledge of the Qur'an is so impressive as you claim.

All one has to do is read both and compare them. the stories in the Bible include Noah Moses, abraham, Jesus etc. but contain much more detail than the stories in the Koran. also some differ. In the Koran it specifically says jesus was not the son of god in the Bible it says he was.

You're too young to have so comprehensive knowledge of the Qur'an anyway.

you have no idea how old I am so your claim is baseless.

All of the historical stories in the Qur'an are not also in the Bible as far as I know. For some stories you could say they have a common foundation.

which historical stories are not in the Bible? and I dont mean anachronistic ones which occured more than 30 years after Jesus Christ. Obviously one cant write a history about something which has not yet happened. Which historical stories at or before the time of Jesus are in the Koran and not in the Bible? I would be interested to know.

There is also a big difference in who the author is: the Qur'an is purely God's Word while the Bible may have some of His Words.

according to what? to the Koran? But god isnt claimed to be the author of the Bible. the first four books are attributed to Moses. god didnt write them he inspired them. also God didnt write the Koran as far as I know. apparently the angel Gabried dictated it and Mohammed wrote the words down. this actual book has never been found. Some of the earliest copies are kept in ireland along with early copies of other sacred scriptures.

robindch

> [babyvaio] Arrogance is your first, not middle, name.

In the last while, you told me that (1) I quote ignorant texts, then that (2) I am endlessly ignorant myself. Before that, we find you saying that (3) DaveMcG might have been 'disrespectful'. A day or two before, (4) Stephen Hawking was both arrogant and clueless. Today, (5) Wicknight is arrogant and (6) Wibbs is one-dimensional and (7) talks without ever listening. (8) IFX is unable to read, while (9) Wibbs and I are suffering from fantasies. And (10) loads of other people are illogical and (11) complain endlessly and are unable to get real.

Apart from quoting four thousand, five hundred words of somebody else's research (without attribution, of course), you have little to add to this debate except a narrow range of predictably juvenile insults.

Out of interest, have you ever considered the faintest of all possibilities, that you might be the disrespectful, one-dimensional, arrogant, ignorant, illogical, clueless fantasist who continually talks without ever listening, who is unable either to read or to get real?

I'm still waiting for you to reply to this post, by the way.

babyvaio

robindch wrote:

> [babyvaio] Arrogance is your first, not middle, name.

In the last while, you told me that (1) I quote ignorant texts, then that (2) I am endlessly ignorant myself. Before that, we find you saying that (3) DaveMcG might have been 'disrespectful'. A day or two before, (4) Stephen Hawking was both arrogant and clueless. Today, (5) Wicknight is arrogant and (6) Wibbs is one-dimensional and (7) talks without ever listening. (8) IFX is unable to read, while (9) Wibbs and I are suffering from fantasies. And (10) loads of other people are illogical and (11) complain endlessly and are unable to get real.

Apart from quoting four thousand, five hundred words of somebody else's research (without attribution, of course), you have little to add to this debate except a narrow range of predictably juvenile insults.

Out of interest, have you ever considered the faintest of all possibilities, that you might be the disrespectful, one-dimensional, arrogant, ignorant, illogical, clueless fantasist who continually talks without ever listening, who is unable either to read or to get real?

I'm still waiting for you to reply to this post, by the way.

I'll tell you why since ur pushing the wheel.

The thing is that all of you are pushing your wheelchair of theories which are astray from what God revelaed as the Truth. But that's not the problem. U can believe in what u want, or believe in nothing. Now since uve done ur analysis of me, my analysis of you is that u do not want to hear the Truth. U go into the debates without any intentions to hear what the real Truth is (correct me if Im wrong about ur intentions).

That's why discussing these things with u is a waste of time.

Regarding the Qur'an. Now be so kind and show that u werent born in a cave (like those pre-humans what u call them) and spell the Qur'an with capital Q.

Once you can do that, then my adivse is that you take a translation of the Qur'an and give it some study.
It seems that u are afraid of the Truth. It seems that u cannot rationally judge the Qur'an. That's called fear from unknown, cos it might change your life for good in a good way.

So dont be so atheistically arrogant and at least read the Book and then come back and let's discuss it.

At the end, to u ur belief (or whatever u call it), to me mine.

End of discussion with u until then. Its not worth it.

ISAW

babyvaio wrote:

I'll tell you why since ur pushing the wheel.

The thing is that all of you are pushing your wheelchair of theories which are astray from what God revelaed as the Truth. But that's not the problem. U can believe in what u want, or believe in nothing. Now since uve done ur analysis of me, my analysis of you is that u do not want to hear the Truth. U go into the debates without any intentions to hear what the real Truth is (correct me if Im wrong about ur intentions).

That's why discussing these things with u is a waste of time.

So you wil go away from this group? Aparenty ypur reasming says so

Regarding the Qur'an. Now be so kind and show that u werent born in a cave (like those pre-humans what u call them) and spell the Qur'an with capital Q.

Once you can do that, then my adivse is that you take a translation of the Qur'an and give it some study.
It seems that u are afraid of the Truth. It seems that u cannot rationally judge the Qur'an. That's called fear from unknown, cos it might change your life for good in a good way.

Hmmm. "seeems" is not truth. Convice us.
Like did mohammed have a six year old wife.
did he?

So dont be so atheistically arrogant and at least read the Book and then come back and let's discuss it.

yes lets, did mohammad have a six year old wife?

Wibbs

babyvaio wrote:

I'll tell you why since ur pushing the wheel.

Ok now we're getting somewhere.

The thing is that all of you are pushing your wheelchair of theories which are astray from what God revelaed as the Truth.

In your opinion and fair enough.

But that's not the problem. U can believe in what u want, or believe in nothing.

The same courtesy I would extend to you or anyone else.

Now since uve done ur analysis of me, my analysis of you is that u do not want to hear the Truth. U go into the debates without any intentions to hear what the real Truth is (correct me if Im wrong about ur intentions).

That's possible. It hard to say about others as naturally I don't know their intentions. For me I would say the search for the "truth" is very important. All I've found out so far is that no one really knows the "truth", much less define it. In the end it comes down to faith or belief.

That's why discussing these things with u is a waste of time.

Discussion is rarely a waste of time IMHO.

Regarding the Qur'an. Now be so kind and show that u werent born in a cave (like those pre-humans what u call them) and spell the Qur'an with capital Q.

Can't speak for others but I always have(I even spell Atheist with a capital A).

Once you can do that, then my adivse is that you take a translation of the Qur'an and give it some study.

Well you see I have. I've read the Quran on a number of occasions(even before the current fashion for it) and have read the main books of Hadeeth as well. While I found much in it of value(especially but not exclusively the early revelations) there was much in it I found discordant and contradictory. The level of abrogation of earlier revelations I found difficult to justify. While there are explanations for some others are harder to reconcile. The attitude to non Muslims a case in point. It varies all over the place. One minute Christians and Jews are brothers in faith(confused brothers maybe), the next they are the enemy. Jews in particular are singled out for very dodgy attitudes. The Hadeeth I had even more problems with. While there was again much value in the advice, at other times the aggressive nature of some of it made difficult reading. The attitude to non believers, women and anyone who opposed Mohammed(in any way, with few exceptions) were all too often of a violent or dismissive nature.

It seems that u are afraid of the Truth. It seems that u cannot rationally judge the Qur'an. That's called fear from unknown, cos it might change your life for good in a good way.

Possibly, though the same text can give different people different things.

At the end, to u ur belief (or whatever u call it), to me mine.

Which has been my contention all along.

ISAW wrote:

Hmmm. "seeems" is not truth. Convice us.
Like did mohammed have a six year old wife.
did he?

Not quite. He was betrothed to Aisha when she was six(He was in his fifties IIRC). He married her when she was nine. Some Muslim scholars have reckoned she was older than that by examining the chronology, but most would say she was nine. It's naturally a contentious subject taken on face value in todays view. Some moral/cultural relativists consider that it was ok for the time so it's hard to judge. Also many Muslim scholars contend that girls matured faster back then due to climate, diet etc. I wouldn't agree. It's more likely girls mature quicker today due to better diet. In any case moral/cultural relativity or not, surely God's message is timeless, in which case it's OK to marry nine year olds. Or you could say it was OK for Mohammed to do so as he was a Prophet. As I've said it's a contentious issue(not least to some Muslims).

ISAW

Wibbs wrote:

Can't speak for others but I always have(I even spell Atheist with a capital A).
Well you see I have. I've read the Quran on a number of occasions(even before the current fashion for it) and have read the main books of Hadeeth as well.

...
Not quite. He was betrothed to Aisha when she was six(He was in his fifties IIRC). He married her when she was nine. Some Muslim scholars have reckoned she was older than that by examining the chronology, but most would say she was nine.

i thought the accepted version was he married her at six and consumated it at nine.?

surce: http://www.muslimhope.com/AishaNine.htm

Sahih al-Bukhari 810-870 A.D. 256 A.H.
"Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old." Bukhari vol.5 book 58 no.236 p.153.
The same points are in Bukhari vol.5 book 58 no.234 p.152.

Sahih Muslim 817-875 A.D. 261 A.H.

This is generally considered the second most reliable collection of hadiths.

"(3309) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine."

Sunan Abu Dawud 817-888/9 A.D. 275 A.H.
"(2116) ‘A’ishah said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said : Or six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old." Abu Dawud vol.2 no.2116 p.569

The source above seems quite detailed and concluded married at six , sex at nine. It also discusses how this custom has continued in Iran ivory coast and Nigeria.

Is the above source wrong?

Wibbs

ISAW wrote:

Is the above source wrong?

No sorry you're right. I think it's down to definitions slightly. He was betrothed/promised to her at six but that would have been not that strange in many cultures back then. Some were betrothed to partners almost after they were born. It's really the consumated at nine bit that would be the issue for many. That's when she was technically married. The consumation is one of the things that defines the marriage in law. If she was betrothed at six and consumated at 16 or 18 then it would have a different slant entirely.

wolfsbane

babyvaio said:

You speak well Wolfy (hope you don't mind the nickname? )

No problem.

about certain things (I particularly meant your last 3 posts in this thread). It is about the belief and good works. Your way of thinking is actually very close to the way Lord defined things with Islam. You would - God Willing - make a good Muslim.

Yes, there are points of agreement. And I thank you for your kind intentions. I sincerely return the compliment, in the words of the Lord Jesus:
Mark 12:34a Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” See context: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%2012:28-37;&version=50;

The only thing is to correct your belief. Since you know your Scripture well, I hope you will find - God Willing - in time - who Jesus really was. If that happens, and I honestly hope so, you will love him the right way and even more that you love him today. May Almighty guides you to the True Path.

That too is my prayer for you.

wolfsbane

Wicknight said:

You need to believe in God first. Believing the Bible is rather secondary to that. This is the exact opposite of the logic used by many Christians, including ones here, that say you believe in God because you believe in the literal Bible.

The point would be that Christians come to believe God because He reveals Himself in the Bible. I can see how you might see this as a chicken and egg thing, but the logical order is:
One reads/hears the gospel message, initially not knowing either it or the God it proclaims, to be true. In the course of that reading/hearing, God reveals Himself to the person's spirit, that He is the true God and this is His word. The person repents and trust in God and holds the Bible to be God's word.

wolfsbane

Wicknight said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by babyvaio
I saw the 2nd link, a few quick looks shows that a completely Islam-ignorant person tried to put together some accusations, which do not hold water. Besides that, the author of the accusations doesn't show much of a common sense and it is obvious that logic is alien to the author.


Lol

Thats exactly what the Christians say about the Bible.

Well pointed out.

It seems that is you are a true believer there is always a way to get around or explain away and contradictions or errors in your holy book.

Yes, that can be true. But - though I hold the Quran to be erroneous - babyvaio does have a point: it is not that simple to dip into a writing and highlight the contradictions. Especially not one that deals with natural and spiritual meanings. There are many nuances the novice critic will miss. Even in these threads one encounters what one believes are self-contradictions, only to have them reconciled when further elaborated on by the author.

We can't do that with historic documents, so we just have to be very careful before we conclude something is self-contradictory.

wolfsbane

Wicknight said:

It would be more like saying Wicknight is a kind and gentle person, who never loses his temper or raises his voice. Except when he is screaming at his wife and children and beating the crap out of them because the dinner is cold.

Now if you knew all the facts would you still call Wicknight a kind and gentle person?

I take it Wicknight approves of putting some people in prison for a very long time. Is that proof Wicknight is not a kind and gentle person?

Likewise with God. He is kind and gentle - but His justise is exercised at times in this life, and always in the next. That is the God revealed in the Bible:
Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [emphasis mine]

wolfsbane

ISAW said:

Careful! you may open a whole can of worms there. One HUGE different between Protestants and traditional Christians was the great debate about whether salvation was by faith alone or by faith and good works.

True, but the works mentioned here are those done after one is justified, not something one does to be justified. True faith always results in good works.

But not all christians insist one must follow the Bible as a fundemental text. there is also the parallel oral tradition. One may find christ without scripture. All the early Christians did.

One does not need to own a copy of the Bible, but one needs to hear the message of the gospel. The early Christians had that word from the apostles. Since then that same word has been passed to men by the written word (the New Testament) and by the preaching of it. No one can be saved by believing anything that is not declared in the Bible. No tradition that is not found in the Bible is able to save the hearer.

Indeed, much that is claimed to be 'tradition' not found in the Bible turns out to be anti-Biblical, e.g. Limbo, priesthood, the papacy. They are no more Christian truth than Joseph smith's golden plates and the Book of Mormon. Many hold these to be Christian tradition, but it is merely the traditions of men. Christ warned us of giving heed to religious leaders who elevated their own thoughts to the status of Scripture:
Matthew 15:1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 ‘ These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

ISAW

wolfsbane wrote:

One does not need to own a copy of the Bible, but one needs to hear the message of the gospel.

fair enough

The early Christians had that word from the apostles. Since then that same word has been passed to men by the written word (the New Testament) and by the preaching of it.

Not ALL of it ! It wasnt put together in written for in one volume for some centuries.

No one can be saved by believing anything that is not declared in the Bible. No tradition that is not found in the Bible is able to save the hearer.

True but someone can be saved without knowing all of it or even without literally knowing ANY of it.

Indeed, much that is claimed to be 'tradition' not found in the Bible turns out to be anti-Biblical, e.g. ..., the papacy.

Matthew 16:18: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church."
cf. Isaiah 22:22,

wolfsbane

ISAW said:

Not ALL of it ! It wasnt put together in written for in one volume for some centuries.

Yes, the earliest churches would not have had all the New Testament, as it was still being written in the 1st Century. But they had enough. And by the time the last apostle died they would have had a lot more. Even today, there are many Christians who do not have a complete Bible or even New Testament - but they have enough to inform them of their need of salvation and of the One who provides it.

True but someone can be saved without knowing all of it or even without literally knowing ANY of it.

The last bit puzzles me. How can I be saved if I do not know I am a sinner, that God sent His Son to atone for the sins of all who trust in Him, that I cannot earn my salvation but must receive it freely by faith in Christ?

Matthew 16:18: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church."
cf. Isaiah 22:22,

You think this text establishes the papacy. But that has many problems, chief of which are the other Scripture texts that teach that Christ is the rock on which the Church is built.

The issue is what this rock refers to. Some think it was Peter's confession that Jesus was the Christ; others that it is Christ Himself. That was the opinion of many of the Fathers, I far as I can recall.

Next you have the problem of Peter's status in the New Testament church: he did not have papal power. He was openly rebuked by Paul on one occasion. His view was considered with all the rest in the Council of Jerusalem.

Finally, the history of the papacy is not Christian at all. It is one of moral vileness, power-lust and heresy.

robindch

> The issue is what this rock refers to.

I described this some time back -- and was bollocked by Excelsior for excessive flirtation with "context" -- but "the rock" bit of this sentence is one of the few jokes in the entire bible. The Vulgate edition reads "Tu es petra, et super hanc petram, aedificabo ecclasiam meam...", while the original Greek has a parallel pun.

It's a pun on "Petrus" which means Peter and "petra" which means "rock". Changing names to make the pun work, in English, the joke reads something like "You are Con of Crete and with this concrete, I will build my church" (ha, ha). Note that the pun doesn't quite work in Latin, coz 'petrus' is masculine and 'petra' is feminine; doesn't work in Greek either for the same reason.

As with any part of the bible, people are free to read whatever they want to into it. But as far as I'm concerned, it's an opportunity for a lame joke.

Zombrex

wolfsbane wrote:

Wicknight said:

I take it Wicknight approves of putting some people in prison for a very long time. Is that proof Wicknight is not a kind and gentle person?

Wicknight doesn't approve of torturing them while in prision ....

Again, you have to look at what God is claimed to have actually done in the Old Testement. He didn't imprision, he killed. He rebuilitate, he destroyed.

So ultimately it comes down to what you believe is fair "justice". If you think that it is fair for God to kill humanity because it has become violent, rather than any of the other options (He is God of course) then you won't find the Flood any worse than sentencing a muderer to 25 years in prision. If one the other hand you think that killing the entire population of the Earth as punishment is a form of genocide, especially when God could have done anything He like to rehabilitate the population, then it doesn't seem like justice at all, it seems like mass murder.

A point Scofflaw makes quite a lot on the Atheist forum is that even if there is a God He would not worship Him, because if the events of the Old Testement were true the God is not deserving of worship. I would hold to that view point also.