The Benefits of Belief?

Dades

In Amish village, forgiveness lives

Specifically:

"They know their children are going to heaven. They know their children are innocent ... and they know that they will join them in death," said Gertrude Huntington, an author on the Amish from Michigan and an expert on children in Amish society.

An extreme example?
Or a clear example as to why in reality religion has survived and spread for millenia?

Beruthiel

The Atheist wrote:

Or a clear example as to why in reality religion has survived and spread for millenia?

Death is not an easy thing for any of us to accept. This is one of the reasons religion has survived. Human nature needs an answer and 'knowing' that there is something else can make it easier for a lot of people.
The problem is you can delude yourself to the extent that you are actually wasting your life in the here and now.
I honestly think that loosing a child must be the most difficult thing for any parent, I personally would find that one very, very difficult to handle.

Asiaprod

The Atheist wrote:

An extreme example?
Or a clear example as to why in reality religion has survived and spread for millenia?

A clear example IMO, not negative, not positive, just a clear example.
Its like that other thread we have about being asked "did Grandma go to heaven." I am happy for them that they do have something to fall back on, it was a revolting atrocity.
Death is painful, I watched my mum going through my married sister's death of cancer. It took forever. The biggest shock/pain to my mum was in her own words "At this age, I never thought I would be burying one of my own," she is over 70, but will deny it:) She had us and her Christianity to help her get through it. Although it does not resonate with me, I could appreciate the strength her belief gave her. Religion is indeed a powerful force that can do great good for some, but it equally has the potential to become the complete opposite.

This morbid reflection on my part, however, did prompt an interesting question. Would Atheists in general like there to be an after life? And what would it be like, if they did that is?*

*if this Amish-based thread develops I can make this question a new thread if ther is interest in it

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i don't think I'd like an after life to be anything that can be comprehended by a human brain.. if we're going to be there for eternity.. I don't see how we wouldn't get bored eventually. I'm sure even heroin becomes mundane.

aidan24326

The Atheist wrote:

In Amish village, forgiveness lives

Specifically:
An extreme example?
Or a clear example as to why in reality religion has survived and spread for millenia?

The reality of our situation is simply too frightening for alot of humanity to accept. Hence the myriad ways in which humans have deluded ourselves over the centuries/millennia. Death and the inescapable fact of our own ultimate demise is an unnerving thought, even for us atheist types, and it's really no surprise that we humans given our ability for abstract thought, have invented ways to circumvent the problem entirely. And you're right, this is probably one of the key reasons that religion has survived and flourished and continues to do so. People will do anything to avoid facing the overwhelming likelyhood of their own demise, even if that means concocting all sorts of fairytales to achieve this, and organised religions are certainly good at inventing fairytale happy endings. But only if you follow their path of course.

The type of belief these Amish people have certainly offers comfort at times of grief and personal loss. But which do you want? a) Deluded comfort or b) the truth be it good, bad or indifferent. Personally I prefer to deal in reality, but I can at least partly understand why so many people go for option a. The honest response to that question, whether a or b, separates the thinking atheist from the blind faith believer IMO.

Beruthiel

Mordeth wrote:

I'm sure even heroin becomes mundane.

Would it not be nice to know for sure by going somewhere risk free to find out?
You're right though, it's human nature to be bored with just about anything after a certain length of time. I think we can enjoy our lives all the fuller because we know it will eventually end and we must squeeze the last drop of joy out of it.
Does eternal life, one that goes on forever and ever with no end sound like fun, I'm not sure it does.

aidan24326

Beruthiel wrote:

Does eternal life, one that goes on forever and ever with no end sound like fun, I'm not sure it does.

That's a good point and I just wonder if religious afterlife believers ever really stop to consider that question. What exactly are you going to do for all of infinite eternity? Since the human mind presumably has a finite (although very large) number of possible conscious states, I expect there would come a time when it would become incredibly boring. And with no escape. Ever. Sod that.

Dades

I think I'd like an afterlife.

But the more I read the posts here about what it could entail the more convinced I become it's a lot of codswallop. The whole Eternity thing is somewhat of an advertising buff. That is, easy to promote but not so easy to produce in practice. Not without putting everyone in some form of non-thought stasis. Like an dead atheist perhaps.

Of course the afterlife wouldn't be covered by the laws of science.

Zombrex

When ever someone asks me if I believe in an after life is say

"No, but I hope for one"

Put simply my brain does a "divide by zero" error when ever I try and phatom not existing, I normally break out in a cold sweat, get a bit upset and try to think of something else.

So I can understand why people believe in an afterlife, but all I can do is say I hope for one because I have nothing to base such a belief on. I want there to be one, I hope there is one. But that isn't the same as belief in one.

One of the realisations that made me become an atheist was that just because I want something doesn't mean it will be true. I think a lot of religious people don't really realise this. They make themselves believe something because they want it to be true.

guildofevil

What about reincarnation? How would people feel about that?

It has often stuck me that reincarnation could be a constructive belief for humanity as a whole (as religious beliefs go). The logic being that you are only a car accident away from being born in another part of the world, to another family, so you should probably not make life hard for others, because you could be making life hard for yourself in the long run.

The way I have heard it in practice though, is that most reincarnation based religions attach a judgement of your actions in this life, to your quality of life in the next, leading to the logic that, if someone is born into squalor, that is because they were not a very good person in their last life and so deserve everything that they get.

guildofevil

guildofevil wrote:

The way I have heard it in practice though, is that most reincarnation based religions attach a judgement of your actions in this life, to your quality of life in the next, leading to the logic that, if someone is born into squalor, that is because they were not a very good person in their last life and so deserve everything that they get.

In buddhism it's more like "actions have consequences". The whole "you deserve what you get" thing is an easy trap to fall into but in this case everyone deserves to be free from suffering. Personally, while I believe in rebirth, I don't care about anything that's led to the present unless it's a clear result of actions in this life. Because things have to be dealt with in the here and now and reflecting on past lives isn't going to be much help in dealing with it

sorry if this is rambly, I'm very tired =/

Sangre

guildofevil wrote:

What about reincarnation? How would people feel about that?

It has often stuck me that reincarnation could be a constructive belief for humanity as a whole (as religious beliefs go). The logic being that you are only a car accident away from being born in another part of the world, to another family, so you should probably not make life hard for others, because you could be making life hard for yourself in the long run.

The way I have heard it in practice though, is that most reincarnation based religions attach a judgement of your actions in this life, to your quality of life in the next, leading to the logic that, if someone is born into squalor, that is because they were not a very good person in their last life and so deserve everything that they get.

Well since you won't know the impact on a future life, nor will you be aware of the actions of your past lives, put simply....who cares then?

Scofflaw

Reincarnation would certainly be my preferred option...particularly if you get a universal ticket, and are likely to come back as a small blue creature somewhere in Andromeda.

Unfortunately, there's no evidence whatsoever, so for the moment I accept that I, and those I love, will be going out like snuffed candles. I suspect this is why people are liable to an upsurge in religion when they have kids. The thought of my own termination I can face with at least some equanimity, but the knowledge that my own daughter will also die in her turn is much more disturbing - possibly becuase I haven't had 30 years to get used to it.

A good point was made that the religious think that what they want to be true is true - they take "I can't conceive of it being any other way" as something that will constrain the Universe. It is also the case, I think, that like most people, they don't think it will ever happen to them, or to people they love. When it inevitably does, they don't have a thought-out way of coping with it.

One of my uncles is dying in Beaumont today - the life support has been turned off, and he's been in a coma since the weekend, so I am expecting to hear later today that he has died. There is nothing I can do about that, but I know that it's only a matter of time, for all of us. One day that will be me.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Scofflaw wrote:

One of my uncles is dying in Beaumont today - the life support has been turned off, and he's been in a coma since the weekend, so I am expecting to hear later today that he has died. There is nothing I can do about that, but I know that it's only a matter of time, for all of us. One day

That came out sounding rather bleak...it's worth pointing out that I am currently helping my daughter jump off the back of the sofa in the sunshine, with much giggling. Life goes on.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Son Goku

Whoa!, those last two posts were excellent.
Nihilism and optimism in perfect contrast.

Asiaprod

Scofflaw wrote:

That came out sounding rather bleak...it's worth pointing out that I am currently helping my daughter jump off the back of the sofa in the sunshine, with much giggling. Life goes on.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Nice post, both of them.

Dades

I concur.

Zillah

I have birth, I have death. All else is myth and mud.

:D:D

/Zillah, happily swimming in mud, off his head on myth.

aidan24326

guildofevil wrote:

What about reincarnation? How would people feel about that?

Reincarnation is completely impossible. Not even just highly unlikely (like God) but outright impossible. What makes 'you' who 'you' are is a unique configuration of brain matter together with a lifetime of experiences and memories. In other words, what gives you the individual consciousness that you have can never be recreated in another lifeform in any meaninful way. It is logically impossible and can be safely dismissed as such. Paul Davies' book 'God and the New Physics' has a good explanation of the problems with reincarnation.

skeptic griggsy

I never have thought about a future state! I only was concerned with knowing if there is God. I found challenges to atheism but knew that they were not really good arguments and now with my computer, I can show others that theistic arguments do not mean anything whatsoever! The notion of a future state has its own problems.How can one deliver our memories to a new body when our thoughts go out at death, for instance.

Tar.Aldarion

I wonder does his daughter saw cordially before most things.
^_^

Dave!

Dunno how ye could get bored in heaven. I mean, I'm not bored in my day to day life on earth, and on earth I work in a rather mundane job monday to friday, and am limited in what I can do in my spare time because of lack of cash. Then when I go back to college I'll have exams to worry about. But I'm not bored to the point that I want to be in a different existance than here!

I think ye are mistaken in that you think of heaven as being a big cloud that you sit on and do nothing all day. Heaven is AWESOME!!! Think of everything you ever wanted and more! That's heaven!

Gawd I can't wait for heaven!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

do you know what eternity means?

it's not 1000 years, 1million years, 1million million years.. it's alot longer

it's not 1 million million billion years X 19 million million billion years ... it's a lot longer

do you honestly believe you will be completely entertained and satisfied beyond even the point where the universe dies?
and not bored, not even once?

Zillah

Mordeth wrote:

do you honestly believe you will be completely entertained and satisfied beyond even the point where the universe dies?
and not bored, not even once?

An infinitely powerful God can provide infinite entertainment.

Also, union with a being who transcends our concepts of time might make you see things differently.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

you trust god to take care of your needs for eternity when he can't even keep his angels in line? I think his Pr people have done a great job but the record just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Scofflaw

Mordeth wrote:

do you know what eternity means?

it's not 1000 years, 1million years, 1million million years.. it's alot longer

it's not 1 million million billion years X 19 million million billion years ... it's a lot longer

do you honestly believe you will be completely entertained and satisfied beyond even the point where the universe dies?
and not bored, not even once?

Hmm. That's one way of looking at eternity. Another is to say that it is timeless, so that one experiences only a single moment of bliss, which is permanent - like a fly in golden amber.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

mmm... well I won't be there anyway, but for the sake of the millions of christians who hope to be heading there I sure hope it's more than that.

that would actually be a bit of a let down.

karen3212

I have to say I had a morbid fear of death as a kid. Mainly cause I asked my grandfather where my grandmother was, and he said up there, pointing towards the skies. I think it was probably one of the few times I actually heard anything religious, I don't know why that was either. But I had dreams on and off after that story seeing myself up there looking down on all the graves of all my family.
And for some reason I didn't recognise them in heaven or up there as I'd imagined it.

Anyway when I realised I was an atheist I started to think about death properly. I think I may have created a fairytale for myself, I'll be eaten by worms, either become composted or part of a worm or other animal or tree etc. I know my brain and I will go but I still think I will become stardust so to speak, eternally somewhere, and I'm not in the least afraid anymore. Of course if I had children who knows what I'd think.

carryboy

The benefits you get in believing are countless. Letting go is easier because of the hopes that the beloved person will have a happier life finally with the Lord. Life though full of problems becomes bearable too.

Zillah

Mordeth wrote:

you trust god to take care of your needs for eternity when he can't even keep his angels in line? I think his Pr people have done a great job but the record just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Well, if we accept the premise that he is omnipotent, then clearly he allowed the fall to happen. For whatever reason.

Furthermore, if we accept the premise that he plans to give believers an eternity of happiness then he has the power to provide that.


All this of course is accepting the rather laughable premise that he exists at all.

skeptic griggsy

Without any thought of a future state and God, I find myself fortunate here now! Good things just happen to me. Enough. Enough that I don't require a future state.There is so much unredeemable evil to count against God,but not enough to count against the good life for so many of us. I suggest we say so.:cool:

Zillah

You make so little sense its painful.

Perhaps theres some valuable ideas in your head...but they don't come outside very well.

skeptic griggsy

I find life for me wonderful but see that for many it is hell. It is good for many of us to have life,but not for others ,which shows no god. There is so much evil to count against God:mad: but not against life itself. One cannot show a future state, so to declare it wonderful is simply wishful thinking! How can we ameliorate this life is the real question?[Please check out who are my buddies and if you do not want to be on the list,say so.]:cool:

5uspect

skeptic griggsy wrote:

I find life for me wonderful but see that for many it is hell.

so far so good...

skeptic griggsy wrote:

It is good for many of us to have life,but not for others ,which shows no god. There is so much evil to count against God

How is it bad to have life? Even if my life was bad I wouldn't want to be dead.
Nor does this show that a God cannot exist, there could be a spiteful nasty god, like in the Old testament. If anything looking at the religious fevour of the poor the opposite is at least believed to be true.

skeptic griggsy wrote:

...but not against life itself. One cannot show a future state, so to declare it wonderful is simply wishful thinking! How can we ameliorate this life is the real question?

What are you trying to say?

skeptic griggsy wrote:

[Please check out who are my buddies and if you do not want to be on the list,say so.]:cool:

Are you a spam bot by any chance?

karen3212

skeptic griggsy wrote:

I find life for me wonderful but see that for many it is hell. It is good for many of us to have life,but not for others ,which shows no god. There is so much evil to count against God:mad: but not against life itself. One cannot show a future state, so to declare it wonderful is simply wishful thinking! How can we ameliorate this life is the real question?[Please check out who are my buddies and if you do not want to be on the list,say so.]:cool:

I find your posts very funny. It seems like you are in a terrible rush to get your thoughts out. I think I understand this one.
As I understand it:
Life for you is wonderful. For many other people it is hell. For some people because their lives are hell, without god, they may not feel any hope/goodness. There is a lot of evil done in god's name. There is no heaven, do to declare is wonderful is wishful thinking. How can we make those people whose lives are hell, feel better now/can we make their lives better - if their lives are better here, they may not need god to make them feel good now.

As I understand that is what is said.
I would tell them that they will return to be part of the Universe, and some of that we still don't know about, so we still don't truely know about the future state, which may help. As for improving their present hell of a life - more money in their childhoods at least. My opinions.