Abortion - Right or Wrong???

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

allowing us to learn more about the brain, whether or not consciousness is real.. you know, all of these questions that have been debated in this thread.

we're not there yet, but we're certainly on the way.

Sam Vimes

Mordeth wrote:

if you believe that then why are you against abortion?

because if consciousness is an illusion, then our right to life is no more or less important than a zygote's. i think human life is important, i just don't think consciousness exists in the way people think it does

ferdi

Mordeth wrote:

allowing us to learn more about the brain, whether or not consciousness is real.. you know, all of these questions that have been debated in this thread.

we're not there yet, but we're certainly on the way.

LOL! how arrogant you are!

if you were a chick, you'd be in with a chance

Sam Vimes

astrofool wrote:

The game analogy also falls down, as its basically saying that something with more complicated genetic code is more alive than a more simple being, we're seperated from monkeys by what? 1% genetic code? Is that 1% alive and what makes us more important than a monkey?

well, yes. that all important 1% is why i'm communicating with you over a 3 megabit internet connection instead of grunting it to you and hitting you on the head, and of course you not understanding because your genetic code would not have created a brain capable of comprehending communication

edit: i mean more important, not more alive. a monkey is just as alive as us but i'm not that bothered about it because no matter how much encouragement and instruction we give it, it will never be able to go to the shop and buy me some french toast

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Commander Vimes wrote:

because if consciousness is an illusion, then our right to life is no more or less important than a zygote's.

if consciousness is an illusion, then our right to life is no more or less important than a chicken. we're just living, like any animal. Using what we have to do what we do. do you eat chicken?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

ferdi wrote:

LOL! how arrogant you are!

if you were a chick, you'd be in with a chance

how do you think these questions are going to be answered? asking spirits? jesus? whip out a ouiji board and see what we learn?

how else are we going to learn about the workings of the brain and the relationship between the brain and what we call consciousness other than science? are we going to think ourselves to a clearer understanding? people have been trying that for a long time before science came around and it wasn';t until science came around that humanity (at least in our part of the world) really got started on learning how the world and we worked. The fact that we live so long, so many diseases cured, or vaccinated against, our fantastic health, the food we eat, the beds we sleep on.. everything in our life has been made better because of science. even the things that are worse, are worse in a more advanced way

Science is how we learn about everything on this planet, including the brain, lincuding us. There is no other way thas produced the kind of results that science has, and it's only been around for a couple of hundred years. It is the way to go. ALways has been, we just hadn't figured it out.

ferdi

jesus? ouji boards?
why bring these into this discussion? i have no interest in either of those things. you think that because i dont agree with you, i've gotta be some kind of religious nutcase? get a grip man. your argument isnt that weak, surely?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i think because you accuse me of arrogance for suggesting science can give us some answers to the questions that yes.. you might be a new age hippie.

astrofool

And it was that self importance I alluded to a while ago, you're nothing but a pompous fool You see, i'd probably class a monkey at least as important as you are, and both equally have a right to live. But the question is, at what point were you a you, and not just a clump of incoherent matter? When it comes to abortion, that point is indeterminable thus far, and societies have really made their own decisions based on available knowledge while incorporating their own beliefs.

Sam Vimes

Mordeth wrote:

how do you think these questions are going to be answered? asking spirits? jesus? whip out a ouiji board and see what we learn?

how else are we going to learn about the workings of the brain and the relationship between the brain and what we call consciousness other than science? are we going to think ourselves to a clearer understanding? people have been trying that for a long time before science came around and it wasn';t until science came around that humanity (at least in our part of the world) really got started on learning how the world and we worked. The fact that we live so long, so many diseases cured, or vaccinated against, our fantastic health, the food we eat, the beds we sleep on.. everything in our life has been made better because of science. even the things that are worse, are worse in a more advanced way

Science is how we learn about everything on this planet, including the brain, lincuding us. There is no other way thas produced the kind of results that science has, and it's only been around for a couple of hundred years. It is the way to go. ALways has been, we just hadn't figured it out.

science is actually the latin word for knowledge

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

that's... great.

Sam Vimes

Mordeth wrote:

that's... great.

i was agreeing with you, try not to take the piss out of me please or i'll get detritus after you with his piecemaker

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

<-- is a gholem

Nevyn

Well with out's chem a golem is just matter material, with out the higher brain functions a body is just meat.

If sperm is flour and a baby is cake when does the raw ingrediants become a cake in the oven ?

You can take out the cake tin too soon and it is not cake or it is half baked.
There is a definate time when it goes from being flour and the other mixture and when it becomes cake.

You can how ever return the cake tin to the oven if it is not done yet or if you deiced you don't want to make cake.

We can't take the mixture of the womb and test it and say it is cake or not that easily.

Sam Vimes

Mordeth wrote:

<-- is a gholem

ah, but are you still a golem if you don't have the magic words in your head?


and i'll get constable dorfl after you then

Nevyn

Commander Vimes wrote:

ah, but are you still a golem if you don't have the magic words in your head?

No it becomes a statue.

Sam Vimes

Thaedydal wrote:

No it becomes a statue.

it was more of a joke than a question tbh

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

thaed totally pwned that analogy though

well done witchie lady !

JC 2K3

Commander Vimes wrote:

we consider ourselves higher beings than other animals. although we may be wrong in that assertion, that's a debate for a thread about vegetarians, not abortions.

No, YOU consider humans higher than other beings. That's called a belief. A baseless assumption. Something you can not argue for with factual evidence.

What is so bad about destroying human life?
Morals are all based on human emotional response to life situations.
Killing is "wrong" because death impacts those who are emotionally attached to the deceased very negatively.
But in that regard, killing is only bad because we wish not to induce these negative feelings on the world.
How many people are negatively emotionally affected if an unborn child is killed?
In most cases, no more than 2 - and guess who decided to kill it? Newton's 3rd law applys here if the parents kill something they love. Of course, they don't necessarily have to love it and in most cases probably don't.

All this talk of zygotes, embryos, conception, consciousness, clusters of cells etc. is irrelevant waffling.

Sam Vimes

JC 2K3 wrote:

Killing is "wrong" because death impacts those who are emotionally attached to the deceased very negatively.
But in that regard, killing is only bad because we wish not to induce these negative feelings on the world.

are you serious? are you really trying to argue that killing is only wrong if it effects the people who are still alive?

does that make it ok to kill a homeless bum with no family and friends?

guildofevil

But what if a golem bakes a cake, using less flour than stated in the recipe and a monkey takes the magic words out of it's head before the zygote, turns into a chicken? Should you be allowed to eat it? Can science answer this question? I think not!

Sam Vimes

guildofevil wrote:

But what if a golem bakes a cake, using less flour than stated in the recipe and a monkey takes the magic words out of it's head before the zygote, turns into a chicken? Should you be allowed to eat it? Can science answer this question? I think not!

and what if the monkey's on roller skates?



if you listen to the radio you'll know what i'm on about

JC 2K3

Commander Vimes wrote:

does that make it ok to kill a homeless bum with no family and friends?

Yup, in theory.

However, it'd be almost impossible to find a bum who had absolutely ZERO impact on society.

Sam Vimes

JC 2K3 wrote:

Yup, in theory.

However, it'd be almost impossible to find a bum who had absolutely ZERO impact on society.

that's a very odd theory


the UN doesn't agree with you by the way:

Article 3.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.


http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

its an especially odd theory for someone calling himself JC. i assume JC is supposed to be jesus

astrofool

Does the UN also make abortion illegal then?

JC 2K3

Commander Vimes wrote:

that's a very odd theory


the UN doesn't agree with you by the way:

Article 3.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.


http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

It's not so much odd as a logical take on the situation. I personally don't view the UN to be an authority on everything, and they're fine with my opinions it seems:

Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.



Oh, and JC are my initials.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

ah, but that doesn't apply to foetii because they're not people yet

JC 2K3

Mordeth wrote:

ah, but that doesn't apply to foetii because they're not people yet

*Head explodes.

Sam Vimes

Mordeth wrote:

ah, but that doesn't apply to foetii because they're not people yet

if you want to get really pedantic, it says everyONE, not every person. a foetus is ONE clump of cells

Nevyn

Commander Vimes wrote:

if you want to get really pedantic, it says everyONE, not every person. a foetus is ONE clump of cells

So is a cancerous growth.