Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Interesting Stuff Thread

1209210212214215219

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    All churches have some flexibility in their doctrine. Besides, your problem may not be doctrinal; it may be more to do with practices, organisation, authority, etc (as is McAleese's problem with misogyny in the Catholic church; she isn't really fussed about doctrine).

    As for having voting procedures, it's a serious mistake with any social structure to assume that if there aren't voting procedures, there are no other ways for those participating in the structure to influence it. (Or, for that matter, that if there are voting procedures, only those who have a vote can influence the organisation).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    The proof of the pudding is in the eating ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    The proof of the pudding is in the eating ;)
    Indeed. If you look at the way the Catholic church changed between, say, 1955 and 1975, and imagine that had nothing to do with people wanting those changes, talking about those changes, promoting those changes, working for those changes, collaborating to bring those changes about, well, your powers of self-delusion are impressive. Organisations which depend on people's commitment and adherence tend to be sensitive, one way or another, to what those people want. If they aren't, they don't survive. And the one thing the Catholic church has been impressively successful at is surviving.

    Rather than leave the Catholic church, McAleese is attempting to do her bit to shift the climate of opinion with the Catholic church. That may piss them off in the Vatican, but it won't surprise them. That's a very Catholic way of responding to your own dissatisfaction with the Catholic church.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    And the one thing the Catholic church has been impressively successful at is surviving.
    Oh I agree, that's probably why they dropped the archaic Latin mass in favour of something more user friendly.
    But survival is the key factor driving any successful meme, not democracy.
    A couple of generations ago people became convinced that the RCC was going to drop its objections to contraception, but they were wrong. Why would the church want to reduce its reproductive capacity?

    By staying within the church, Mary Mc Aleese proves to those in charge that they can carry on as usual, and that they can safely ignore uppity women like her.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    recedite wrote: »
    By staying within the church, Mary Mc Aleese proves to those in charge that they can carry on as usual, and that they can safely ignore uppity women like her.

    ...as opposed to the way it hangs on the every word of uppity women who aren't Catholics?


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    By staying within the church, Mary Mc Aleese proves to those in charge that they can carry on as usual, and that they can safely ignore uppity women like her.

    Whatever about Rome, she doesn't seem to have been ignored locally. Diarmuid Martin seems in broad agreement with here even if he couches his words more carefully. Taken from the journal
    During her speech yesterday, McAleese referred to the fact that Martin previously felt compelled to remark that “the low standing of women in the Catholic Church is the most significant reason for the feeling of alienation towards it in Ireland today”.

    Responding to this, Martin said: “Indeed, I was happy to note that President McAleese quoted that exact phrase of mine in her speech today.

    “Her challenge to the internal culture of the Church today was brutally stark. Some may find it unpleasant or unwelcome. I must accept the challenge with the humility of one who recognises her alienation.”


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Just to backtrack a moment, the issue here isn't how likely McAleese is to succeed in effecting any kind of change; it's whether it is surprising that she would try, rather than simply walk away. And the answer is, it's not at all surprising.

    As for the church not being a democracy, yeah, it isn't. But democracy isn't the only mechanism by which organisations or movements can be influenced, nor necessarily (gasp!) the most effective. After all, in the secular world the 1% manage to be quite influential despite being only 1%. :)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    As for the church not being a democracy, yeah, it isn't. But democracy isn't the only mechanism by which organisations or movements can be influenced, nor necessarily (gasp!) the most effective. After all, in the secular world the 1% manage to be quite influential despite being only 1%. :)

    With respect, in a democracy the 1% have a mandate of the majority of the citizenship. While easy enough to poke holes in, entirely preferable to an organisation such as the Catholic church making clandestine decisions behind closed doors. Comparison of a huge monolithic religious organisation to the secular world is also something of a false dichotomy as the secular world comprises a myriad of varied groups many of which have diametrically opposing views.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    smacl wrote: »
    With respect, in a democracy the 1% have a mandate of the majority of the citizenship . . .
    No, they don't. They just have a lot of money.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    The South China Morning Post has an interesting article about early Christianity in the Middle Kingdom.

    What happened to China’s early Christians and why did the Nestorian doctrine die out?


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    pauldla wrote: »
    The South China Morning Post has an interesting article about early Christianity in the Middle Kingdom.

    What happened to China’s early Christians and why did the Nestorian doctrine die out?
    That's a nice illustration from the scroll, not sure where or when its from though? The scenery is reminiscent of a Japanese style, with the little maple tree and the gnarly older trees in the background. The halo and divine light is more of a Byzantine style influence.
    The Sasanian Empire was interesting in religious terms, being a home to Zoroastrianism and Nestorian Christianity. I think both of these religions would have been more suitable for the modern world than the more fundamentalist ones that actually survived. They had a more humanist approach, and were more about balance and duality.

    Sasanians and their intellectual rivals the Byzantines were both absorbed by the Muslim conquest in the end, and that extinguished any spread of their religions into China. Islam itself does not seem to suit the Chinese psyche, perhaps they are too logical.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    From the iconography this is not, as the caption suggests, "a Christian baptism in ancient China"; it's a depiction in a Chinese or more probably Japanese style of the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist in the River Jordan. And I'm guessing it's a fairly modern image.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    So its Japanese Jesus.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Makes a change from the Swedish Jesus that we normally see.

    blue-eyed-Jesus.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Out of interest, purely on Jesus's likely colour of skin how many western countries would he be warmly welcomed in as a migrant by its citizens, in particular those of far right leaning motives?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    I doubt anyone would notice. I think all western countries are multi-racial at this stage. The real controversy is whether they are multi-cultural.
    So it wouldn't be his olive skin tones that would annoy people, it would be his preaching; bringing in some weird mysogynistic middle eastern religion ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It's not his misogyny that would be a problem; Jesus's teachings are not especially misogonynistic. It's the radical anti-capitalism and anti-consumerism that would threaten the whole basis of modern Western society.

    Between that, and his ethnic and cultural background which, yes, Rec, would definitely attract the attention of racists, I imagine he would not fare well. Probably end up being nailed to a cross.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,822 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    It's not his misogyny that would be a problem; Jesus's teachings are not especially misogonynistic. It's the radical anti-capitalism and anti-consumerism that would threaten the whole basis of modern Western society.

    Between that, and his ethnic and cultural background which, yes, Rec, would definitely attract the attention of racists, I imagine he would not fare well. Probably end up being nailed to a cross.

    personally I wouldn't like to live in a straw hut waiting for the second coming , its good I guess that only a tiny tiny number of people take him literally

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    silverharp wrote: »
    personally I wouldn't like to live in a straw hut waiting for the second coming , its good I guess that only a tiny tiny number of people take him literally

    It seems He was supposed to return within the lifetime of his contemporaries, something that caused the early church some bafflement when it didn't happen and continued not happening.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    pauldla wrote: »
    It seems He was supposed to return within the lifetime of his contemporaries, something that caused the early church some bafflement when it didn't happen and continued not happening.

    Maybe he made the mistake of being born into a Cathar or Muslim family second time out and got burnt as a heretic by some passing crusaders ;)


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 17,822 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    smacl wrote: »
    Maybe he made the mistake of being born into a Cathar or Muslim family second time out and got burnt as a heretic by some passing crusaders ;)

    Someone recommended a book here about the Cathars but finding it hard going, its been on 2 holidays with me so far and still not through it.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    silverharp wrote: »
    smacl wrote: »
    Maybe he made the mistake of being born into a Cathar or Muslim family second time out and got burnt as a heretic by some passing crusaders ;)

    Someone recommended a book here about the Cathars but finding it hard going, its been on 2 holidays with me so far and still not through it.

    Don’t be afraid to put down a book if you’re not getting anything from it. You’ll find it cathar-tic.

    (gets coat)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    silverharp wrote: »
    Someone recommended a book here about the Cathars but finding it hard going, its been on 2 holidays with me so far and still not through it.

    I read a couple of books on them and found Sean Martin's book an easy enough read, though I'm reasonably fond of these types of pop history books.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    Been in Kilkenny for the last couple of days - in the hotel at breakfast yesterday morning it became apparent we were surrounded by priests in mufti

    Then at a restaurant in the city last night there was a table of fourteen middle-aged and pensioner men - a brief earwigging confirmed - yep - priests

    One of our kids heard at kids club in the hotel that there was going to be a dinner in the hotel tonight for 100 priests :confused:

    Wtf. I didn't think the RCC had the manpower these days to be able to waste hundreds of priest-days on a jolly.

    And as a parent the hotel should have warned me ;)

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Awkward. I'm guessing you'll skip using the sauna on this trip.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    Sales of holy sticky tape dispensers and joke phones will be through the roof

    And not a single can of Priest-Off to be found in the city...

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    Beyond a yolk: the inevitable annual row over Easter eggs
    A history of scandals

    Press over the years includes:

    In 2010, reports focused quite simply on the existence of the egg. ‘“Jesus” Easter egg launched in UK’ reported the BBC. ‘The Bishop of Manchester, the Right Reverend Nigel McCulloch, said… “We hope that all our supermarkets will stock the first and only Easter egg in the UK that explains the significance of Easter”’.

    But clearly, they didn’t, at first. By 2012 The Telegraph reported, ‘Bishops claim shops don’t want Christian Easter eggs’. ‘The Bishop of Middleton, the Rt Rev Mark Davies, added: “We thought we had proven that people were not afraid to buy an Easter egg which mentions Jesus, gives money to charity and which helps in communicating the true meaning of Easter. It seems incredible that the only Easter egg gift on the market which caters for the Christian community is rejected or marginalised by our biggest retailers.”’

    Come 2013 this tactic seemed to have worked: ‘Bishops’ lobbying pays off as supermarkets stock “Christian” Easter Eggs’. ‘Tesco, Morrisons, Sainsbury’s, Waitrose and the Co-Op bowed to pressure after a three-year “pestering” campaign by figures including the Archbishop of York, Dr John Sentamu.’

    But by 2015, the Archbishop of York was at it again – ‘Archbishops’ anger as supermarkets snub Easter eggs featuring Jesus in favour of Darth Vader’ was the Daily Mail headline. ‘Supermarkets have been accused of pursuing an “anti- Christian agenda” after refusing to sell Easter eggs with a religious message… One chain even asked “what has Easter got to do with the Church?”, according to the makers of The Real Easter Egg, which features Christian crosses on the box and contain a leaflet telling the story of the Resurrection.’ In 2017 the Mirror identified 15 articles on the Archbishop’s website that promoted ‘The Real Easter Egg’.

    In 2016, a new target was identified: the supposed non-Christianity of rival eggs. Various images were published purporting to show that while in the past, products from Cadbury and Nestle used the word ‘Easter’, nowadays they don’t. ‘The allegation was highlighted by the makers of the “Real Easter Egg”, a fair trade chocolate product which carries a Christian message instead of pictures of bunnies and chicks and donates its profits to charity’, reported The Telegraph. This went along with a YouGov poll, reported in The Express, claiming that the public ‘disagreed’ with the ‘dropping’. But a glance at old photos over the years shows that the story was concocted from a selective choice of products, and that it has long been the case that Cadbury and Nestlave been fairly consistent in their levels of using the word ‘Easter’ in their packaging.

    And then last year, the Archbishop of York issued a statement accusing Cadbury and the National Trust of removing Easter from their annual Easter egg hunt – something they didn’t do, and no-one would want them to do. This received blanket coverage, particularly once Theresa May got involved. But in his statement, the Archbishop said ‘To drop Easter from Cadbury’s Easter Egg Hunt in my book is tantamount to spitting on the grave of Cadbury. Maybe everyone should now buy The Real Easter Egg.’ (As Humanists UK pointed out at the time, the fact that Cadbury was a Quaker who didn’t celebrate Easter seems to be neither here nor there.)

    Christians claiming ownership over the word Easter / Eostre / Oestre is pathetic, really. Centuries before any carpenters were getting nailed onto crosses, pagans were celebrating the coming of spring with images of eggs, hares etc.

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,989 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    An old teacher of mine died this morning. A curious mix - probably one of the most intelligent people I've met, PhD in astrophysics, an a priest of more than 60 years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Pearly gates, or stardust? At least he has the answers now.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Interesting piece on David Goodall's assisted suicide on RTE. While we've a few decades left in the tank (hopefully!), myself an my OH have agreed that once we pass the point where life's all pain and no pleasure we'll take a bunch of happy pills and leave the stage on our own terms.


Advertisement