are girls sometime "scared" of foreigners?

Blackpitts

dunno if it is the best place to write this thread as it is not really a big issue, but sometimes I feel like it is a personal one.
so...as u can understand i'm not irish but i've been living in Dub for 1 and half year so far, i enjoy the night life and I'm really sociable (like many people from the southern europe). I dated some girls, i had also a relationship with an irish girl so I have definitely no problems in making friends or just have a laugh with new people.
Nevertheless I feel hard to become friends with irish, girls especially. When I talk about "friends" I mean people to go out with (not "one-night-stand"). I personally reckon that Irish people is really friendly at the first approach but at some point it is like there is a sort of embarassment and they don't call u or they dont let u become a part of their group.
Especially girls are like "scared" of foreigners, they just think u want to shag them, they are always running away even if you try a very nice and soft approach..
I wonder why it is like that, but I want to point out that I don't think it is a matter of racism.
so at the end the only irish friends I have are from the office and the most of the people I hang out with are foreigners and they all are in the same situation.
and about the stereotipe of the foreigner as "sleazy-cheasy guy", I saw many times a lot of irish boys literally jumping on girls, so the sleazy guy is everywhere in the world, so let's cut this stereotype..:D
now I'm really curious to know your comment on that, and I hope that soon I will find a lot of friends ready to show me that I was wrong...

ciao

Pigman II

Can't speak for the ladies but I'm definetly scared for foriegners. Especially the ones from the north that think they are from my country.

MontgomeryClift

I'm no expert now but you might be acting too careful, too nice. You have to be kind of a sleazy cnut to get along with girls at all, I think. They seem to be impressed by that kind of thing.

Ruu_Old

Some people have the mentality that foreigners are in to steal their women or fellas for that matter and the jobs and so on, maybe thats why they are scared so much, I can't speak for any girls though.

Trinity

I'm not scared of foreigners however relationships are tough enough without 'huge' cultural differences.

I have to say there is certain hype about men from abroad that have not helped their cause.

i.e. that movie 'not without my daughter'

the book 'princess'.

ok possibly more aimed at religion rather then race, however very frightening to a lady who thinks if i marry this man he is going to kidnap my children or cut off my clitoris so as not to get any pleasure from sex or make me walk ten paces behind him.

i think also it is probably a misconception that men from abroad will dominate a woman and treat her as inferior (or perhaps its true i dont know).

then of course there are the people who fear the man is only with them for a green card (before anyone kills me IT DOES HAPPEN!! a guy himself told me this about his wife).

i dunno i guess its a mixture of stuff.

I'm not rasict but i would have to know someone from a different culture a long time before i would allow myself to become seriously involved. Colour is not an issue by the way my own son is mixed race, (his dad was born and raised here though) to me its more religion, background, culture and beliefs.

But i would tend to judge people as individuals and providing he was a good person with good morals then it probably wouldnt be an issue.

Victor

Don't worry. The problem is some Irish women are really stuck up.

coffee_cake

MontgomeryClift wrote:

I'm no expert now but you might be acting too careful, too nice. You have to be kind of a sleazy cnut to get along with girls at all, I think. They seem to be impressed by that kind of thing.

Wrong. While I would find being approached flattering, a drunk sleazy guy is not appealing at *all*.


OP: I duno, I've gotten along fairly well with random polish guys in pubs *shrug* so I can't speak for the scared women

Huggles

Victor wrote:

Don't worry. The problem is some Irish women are really stuck up.

Hmm some WOMEN are stuck up, they don't have to be exclusively Irish LOL

LegacyUser

some foreign men treat/speak to women in a different way than irish men do. its a little more formal or something. sometimes its alright, i've had short term relationships with guys from a few countries. but ultimately theres a language barrier or cultural barrier thats hard to deal with. unless the guys been living in ireland for years and years and has been really social with mostly other irish people.

if i was to imagine who i would marry, it would be an irish guy or a british guy or an american guy. even if its like an african-american, a chinese guy who grew up in ireland, or a british guy with pakistani parents. the point is they've grown up in a similar culture and are more likely to treat u as you're comfortable with.

i've known italian, slovene, and spanish guys to say really really cheesy things like "one day i hope we will be together once more, and dance around and around into the stars". i dont know if this stuff is romantic for foreign girls, but for me it makes me cringe, especially if i don't know the guy very well.

so i dont know, maybe you're being a bit too soppy. but i don't know if this is actually just what those guys i've been with are like, or if they thought they might be impressing me with some flowery romanticism. from what i've heard from friends, this kind of talk seems widespread, especially in southern europe. and i know that from past experiences of me and my friends (irish and otherwise), most of us agree that guys from southern spain and southern italy and south america tend to be more macho (a mostly good thing)but also a little more belittling towards women (a totally bad thing).

chump

Victor wrote:

Don't worry. The problem is some Irish women are really stuck up.

What a farcical comment. Along the lines of 'some mods have a superiority complex'.

Most irish women are not stuck up.

OP "it is like there is a sort of embarassment and they don't call u or they dont let u become a part of their group."

I personally think that even irish people can find it hard to integrate into an already formed group. Particularly if it has held strong for a number of years.

I'd also say that many friendships start out of innocuous conversations and then when people hit on common themes things grow for there.

I'd also imagine that a foreign person wouldn't have as much in common with an irish person as another irish person, in instances of

- culture
- upbringing
- religion
- extended acquaintances
- humour
- national politics
- music

etc.

Just like a non-football fan might find it really hard to become friends with a Bohs Supporters group.

Blackpitts

chump wrote:

I'd also imagine that a foreign person wouldn't have as much in common with an irish person as another irish person, in instances of

- culture
- upbringing
- religion
- extended acquaintances
- humour
- national politics
- music

I think that this is perfectly normal, so i really don't understand why it should be a problem for an irish guy to accept someone despite these types of differences.
Maybe this is the reason you prefer to travel just to Australia and US where u can find people speaking your native language and be friends especially with other irish guys sitting in irish pubs.If you don't accept that these differences can also enrich you, you will remain always a small country.
You have a lot to give to foreigners, but also a lot to get from Italian, French, Spanish culture.

Black Swan

Blackpitts wrote:

Maybe this is the reason you prefer to travel just to Australia and US where u can find people speaking your native language and be friends especially with other irish guys sitting in irish pubs.

A comment such as this, Blackpitts, does not help your cause. Perchance you may want to reflect on why you said it? Could it be part of the problem? You will find Irish citizens all over the world, not just in the US or Oz. Persons pursuing careers, foreign exchange students, volunteers helping others, and tourists. All Irish are not ethnocentric and only prefer to speak to others who are Irish in pubs (or date them for that matter).

Fanny Cradock

Blackpitts wrote:

Maybe this is the reason you prefer to travel just to Australia and US where u can find people speaking your native language and be friends especially with other irish guys sitting in irish pubs. If you don't accept that these differences can also enrich you, you will remain always a small country.

that's an unfair generalisation. you are incorrectly assuming that because someone is irish they will only travel to english speaking countries, and automatically dismiss cultures that don't have the same values. above the obvious attractions of travelling to countries like the US and Australia, there are also historical reasons as to why so many of us go there. as for spanish, italian french etc., well, there are pleanty of them around so i don't think we are ignoring them.


i would think no matter the culture there is a point when an acquaintanceship would naturally develop into a friendship. no offence, but possibly the problem lies with you rather than all the irish that said, i agree with victors (sarcastic?) comment on some irish women (and for the PC crowd - men also) being stuck up.

;;;edit;;;

what blue lagoon said

Blackpitts

Fanny Cradock wrote:

that's an unfair generalisation. you are incorrectly assuming that because someone is irish they will only travel to english speaking countries, and automatically dismiss cultures that don't have the same values. above the obvious attractions of travelling to countries like the US and Australia, there are also historical reasons as to why so many of us go there. as for spanish, italian french etc., well, there are pleanty of them around so i don't think we are ignoring them.


i would think no matter the culture there is a point when an acquaintanceship would naturally develop into a friendship. no offence, but possibly the problem lies with you rather than all the irish that said, i agree with victors (sarcastic?) comment on some irish women (and for the PC crowd - men also) being stuck up.

;;;edit;;;

what blue lagoon said

I agree with you that my generalisation is unfair, but all the generalisations are wrong in themselves, becasue there is always an exception.
But, in your opinion, is not an unfair generalisation to say:
(I quote)
"I'd also imagine that a foreign person wouldn't have as much in common with an irish person as another irish person, in instances of

- culture
- upbringing
- religion
- extended acquaintances
- humour
- national politics
- music"

or as above:
"however very frightening to a lady who thinks if i marry this man he is going to kidnap my children or cut off my clitoris so as not to get any pleasure from sex or make me walk ten paces behind him."

I'm not blaming trinity and chump, they are just reporting what some people generally think, so I will take back my generalisation if all the others will do the same when they deal with foreigners.

... perhaps you are right, possibly the problem lies with me rather than all the irish, i'm not here to say I'm perfect, but sometimes I share my impressions with a Scottish and a Canadian girls and they also find very hard to get accepted (they are both living here for few years now). So I wonder why we are left out in some way, and (i repeat) I'm happy to see that there are exceptions, my colleagues are very friendly, because I have time to show them that we can get along, but this opportunity is denied to me often when i'm out or in a pub.

I hope that no one is getting offended by my words, we are here just to have a chat.

Trinity

I shouldnt take it too personally blackpitts.

if you read some of the other threads irish people too are having similar problems.

threads like girls (and men for others) dont want to know me cos i have a child.

Other common themes are :i'm so lonely i have very few friends, my current friends exclude me, I cant meet new people etc

why dont you join a club of some sort or start a new hobby allowing you to meet likeminded people, half the battle is won because you already know before you go that these people will have at least one thing in common with you!

Oh and to add to the common misconceptions, italians for examples have the name of being lets just say easy lovers! Maybe girls are scared they are just another conquest!

Irish have the name of being alcoholics, yet i know loads and loads of people who dont drink.

Another thing is do you tell them you are European? This guy was chasing me for ages and ages, told me he was italian. He was ok but a bit clingy. Went on a couple of dates. Turns out hes romanian and needed a green card, has a wife and kid back home. D'oh my bad for not knowing the difference but it was a long time ago now!!

starting off in a friendship is always the best advice i can give. let people get to know the real you and lay to rest all those misconceptions.

CathyMoran

Well, some of my best friends are foreigners. My best friend is from Singapore. We have always just clicked (though I did have a massive crush on him for quite a while). In the end people are people. I did go to a school which was multicultural and I think that this may have helped.

embee

I used to work with a couple of guys from Nigeria. They were nice guys, but a bit full-on with the attention they'd lavish on women. I mean, there's being attentive, and then there's just plain lechery. They were too touchy feely, would say inappropriate things of a sexual nature etc.... because of that I felt I couldn't get to know them as people - they almost used to hide behind it.

Now, obviously I don't think that all (or even most) foreigners behave this way, this was just the only example I've had of being in close proximity on a daily basis to foreigners, working with them etc... but those two guys in particular did themselves no favours.

A Primal Nut

I think your too quick to blame all your problems on your nationality.

Blackpitts wrote:

dunno if it is the best place to write this thread as it is not really a big issue, but sometimes I feel like it is a personal one.
so...as u can understand i'm not irish but i've been living in Dub for 1 and half year so far, i enjoy the night life and I'm really sociable (like many people from the southern europe). I dated some girls, i had also a relationship with an irish girl so I have definitely no problems in making friends or just have a laugh with new people.
Nevertheless I feel hard to become friends with irish, girls especially. When I talk about "friends" I mean people to go out with (not "one-night-stand"). I personally reckon that Irish people is really friendly at the first approach but at some point it is like there is a sort of embarassment and they don't call u or they dont let u become a part of their group.

Not really because your italian. Lots of guys have the same problem with women not calling them. They like being friends but don't want a relationship.

Especially girls are like "scared" of foreigners, they just think u want to shag them, they are always running away even if you try a very nice and soft approach..

Again, anyone chatting up Irish girls has this problem, including the Irish. In fact being Italian should help as women like someone who is a bit different. But I think the problem is the difference between Irish girls and the girls you know back home. You perceive this that this must mean they treat you different to the Irish guys but in fact they just treat all men differently to how they do in your home country. The fact your foreign shouldn't effect your relations with most Irish women. Also, being nice isn't enough to get a Irish women to like you as more than a friend.

There is one other possibility maybe your a nice guy but come across a bit weird. I work with this Polish guy I work with he's a sound guy but every time he starts work and sees me for the first time he shakes my hand. He does it again when he's finishing. We're not business people, we work in a supermarket. Of course he's just being nice, but it is a bit weird. I've met him out and he always comes up to my friends and starts introducing all his friends. He sound but I just wouldn't to go out drinking with him and don't think any of the girls would be interested in him even though they say he is good looking. My best friend is from Sudan even though he grow up in Britain and later Ireland. There are some lithuanians at work I get on with grand. So it's not racism. But some foreigners although, they're being nice, it seems they're trying a bit too hard and they come across as a bit odd or something. Don't know if this is the case with you, but just don't try to be too nice or serious. Have a laugh and don't blame all your problems on your nationality.

Black Swan

Blackpitts wrote:

so I will take back my generalisation if all the others will do the same when they deal with foreigners.

They are under no obligation to take back what they feel or express, nor are you. But once again, does such talk put you in a good light with people who are reasonably open but do not know you? Hey, I don't mean to get on your case, but if I were to say such things, people would pounce on me, too. Be true to yourself, rise above this, and go out and seek others who share your common interests, no matter their nationality.

Beruthiel

Blackpitts wrote:

I share my impressions with a Scottish and a Canadian girls and they also find very hard to get accepted (they are both living here for few years now). So I wonder why we are left out in some way, and (i repeat) I'm happy to see that there are exceptions, my colleagues are very friendly, because I have time to show them that we can get along, but this opportunity is denied to me often when i'm out or in a pub..

Blackpitts
I'm from the west of Ireland and when first moving to Dublin I found the same thing. First off, your colleagues know you better and will therefore ask you out.
People you meet in other places probably think you are just being friendly and don't really mean what you say. They probably think that you already have enough friends and don't need more or might not even think that you have very few and are looking for some. It can indeed be difficult. You will have to go out of your way and ask people to do stuff with you, go to the cinema, for coffee or whatever.

I work with this Polish guy I work with he's a sound guy but every time he starts work and sees me for the first time he shakes my hand.

This is perfectly normal for him. There are a few of them at my work, they shake each others hand every day when they come into work, it's their way of saying hi and not at all weird.

A Primal Nut

Beruthiel wrote:

Blackpitts
I'm from the west of Ireland and when first moving to Dublin I found the same thing. First off, your colleagues know you better and will therefore ask you out.
People you meet in other places probably think you are just being friendly and don't really mean what you say. They probably think that you already have enough friends and don't need more or might not even think that you have very few and are looking for some. It can indeed be difficult. You will have to go out of your way and ask people to do stuff with you, go to the cinema, for coffee or whatever.

I work with this Polish guy I work with he's a sound guy but every time he starts work and sees me for the first time he shakes my hand.

This is perfectly normal for him. There are a few of them at my work, they shake each others hand every day when they come into work, it's their way of saying hi and not at all weird.

I don't mind it, but I'm just saying these little habits might put some people off. Of course it's perfectly normal to him but thats not the point. There are some things that are normal to them which might annoy us. Not their fault, of course, but something to watch out for.

chump

Blackpitts wrote:

"however very frightening to a lady who thinks if i marry this man he is going to kidnap my children or cut off my clitoris so as not to get any pleasure from sex or make me walk ten paces behind him."

Your response is absurd.

I was merely pointing out that if a lack of common ground exists between one person and another, while they may be civil and enjoy brief chats, a longer term relationship is less likely to ensue.

This happens between irish people, it also happens between irish people and foreigners.

There are plenty of irish people, myself included, that would not integrate well into certain groups.

There are plenty of irish people I know that have very close 'foreign' friends. And not necessarily of uk/aussie/us origin.

It's a persons personality that counts.

Could that be the problem?

Victor

Fanny Cradock wrote:

i agree with victors (sarcastic?) comment on some irish women (and for the PC crowd - men also) being stuck up.

I'd use the word "cynical". There many a time a guy would get a scowl for looking at a girl, especially if he didn't have the pope's permission. Then there's: "What are you looking at?".

TheGooner wrote:

Hmm some WOMEN are stuck up, they don't have to be exclusively Irish LOL

I've only ever been scowled at by one Polish woman, and she apologised profusely when she recognised me. But that said the only reason I said "Irish women", was becuase that was the context the OP put it in.

Trinity1 wrote:

I'm not scared of foreigners however relationships are tough enough without 'huge' cultural differences.

I think the guy is looking for people to have a few drinks with, not "How about a coffee and a gential mutilation after?"

chump wrote:

Victor wrote:

Don't worry. The problem is some Irish women are really stuck up.

What a farcical comment. ...... Most irish women are not stuck up.

Where did I say "Most irish women are stuck up."?

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

A comment such as this, Blackpitts, does not help your cause.

Why? Because its true?

embee wrote:

I used to work with a couple of guys from Nigeria. They were nice guys, but a bit full-on with the attention they'd lavish on women.

Its cultural. Tell then it isn't appropriate, especially in the workplace. I'd barely met a Nigerian woman in a bar and she was rubbing her bits on my knee. Flattering, but perhaps inappropriate.

A Primal Nut wrote:

There is one other possibility maybe your a nice guy but come across a bit weird. I work with this Polish guy I work with he's a sound guy but every time he starts work and sees me for the first time he shakes my hand. He does it again when he's finishing. We're not business people, we work in a supermarket. Of course he's just being nice, but it is a bit weird.

I think that just shows how repressed Irish people are about touching each other.

LegacyUser

OP:

It would be nice to know how you think it would work in your country if we legged it from here to there. would we be asking the same questions?

Depending on where u are from there may be predjuices at work based on what we know of how women are treated in your country.

God knows we have our own share of domestic violence against women here, but at least they can vote, work when they get married, etc and are generally treated as equal, except in Portmarnock Golf club.

However it must be said that we have people here from countries where women are treated very badly and if you are from such a location then.....

Irish women may be a lot of things, but they are not stupid and we have seen some dreadful cases where childern have been taken out of this country by "foreign fathers" etc etc.

I must say your comments about us only going to white, english speaking countries set your post back about a 1000 years.

The question that I want to ask in that vein is why did you come here, as opposed to anywhere else?

You dont need to give the answer here but u do need to answer it honestly to your self

Blackpitts

chump wrote:

Your response is absurd.

I was merely pointing out that if a lack of common ground exists between one person and another, while they may be civil and enjoy brief chats, a longer term relationship is less likely to ensue.

Please read my thread carefully, I wrote:
"I'm not blaming trinity and chump, they are just reporting what some people generally think,"

chump

You also said

""however very frightening to a lady who thinks if i marry this man he is going to kidnap my children or cut off my clitoris so as not to get any pleasure from sex or make me walk ten paces behind him.""

Along with other things.
And how am I reporting what others think? I'm reporting that I believe

I was merely pointing out that if a lack of common ground exists between one person and another, while they may be civil and enjoy brief chats, a longer term relationship is less likely to ensue.

This happens between irish people, it also happens between irish people and foreigners.

There are plenty of irish people, myself included, that would not integrate well into certain groups.

There are plenty of irish people I know that have very close 'foreign' friends. And not necessarily of uk/aussie/us origin.

It's a persons personality that counts.

What's your take on this assessment?


and Victor, sorry I get a bit stroppy when I see people badmouth irish girls in particular, as there are ignorant girls of every nationality

Blackpitts

chump wrote:

You also said

""however very frightening to a lady who thinks if i marry this man he is going to kidnap my children or cut off my clitoris so as not to get any pleasure from sex or make me walk ten paces behind him.""

Along with other things.
And how am I reporting what others think? I'm reporting that I believe

oh my god...
i thought u were open minded, i hope that the most of the irish girls doesn't have the same unreasonable (read, stupid) fears when they meet a foreigner.

coffee_cake

Blackpitts wrote:

oh my god...
i thought u were open minded, i hope that the most of the irish girls doesn't have the same unreasonable (read, stupid) fears when they meet a foreigner.

Uh you do realise that chump was quoting what you wrote?

greenteaicedtea

Blackpitts wrote:

Especially girls are like "scared" of foreigners, they just think u want to shag them, they are always running away even if you try a very nice and soft approach..

Hey, any guy who talks to me a lot, leans in close, etc., of course that's what I'm going to think, whether he's from the same background as me, or not. I'm used to a certain amount of personal space and conversational distance, and if a guy is in my face, or is being super sugary sweet, I think he's trying to pick me up.

I worked with a guy from Africa, not sure which country, but he would share his lunch with me, or offer to, anyhow, I mean half of his entire lunch he would offer, which made me feel uncomfortable. Men from the Caribbean I find also to be louder and more touchy-feely than I would like.

People who are incredibly unbelievably nice, I'm suspicious of, because I don't want to be manipulated into anything. Some men feel that you're obligated to talk to them the whole night just because they're being nice to you.

Also, in the back of my mind, I would worry about if it became a relationship, if his family would hate me or not. I was talking to someone on an online dating site, when he found out I was Irish and Catholic, he said "my grandma wouldn't like you", and that was the last I heard from him (this is in Canada). My friend who married a Polish girl, his mother-in-law seems to loathe him simply because he's not Polish.

My brother married a girl from Taiwan, she felt like one of us sisters; it was a good personality match between her and our family. My brother had spent 2 years in Taiwan and understands the culture, and she had spent some time in the States and understands a bit of North American culture too. But I think that both the Irish and Chinese play their cards close to their chest, in some ways, so I think that helped make things easier.

InFront

I definitely know what you mean by 'scared' but i dont really think it's fear at all:)
For whatever reasons, some Irish girls feel a bit awkward around foreign men to varying degrees, I mean if you're there in Club 92 or whatever, wearing a turban, or a Keffiyeh or something - there is going to be a communication barrier:D Often it isn't that extreme, of course. But remember that some people are only going out with one thing on their minds, and they often like what is familiar, and easy (no pun intended)
Researchers have found that sheep prefer to mate with rams that are of the same breed and type and colour as themselves. There is a similar theory in human sexuality - that we are attracted to people who look and act and sound like us. There are huge exceptions, obviously, but in general yeah I'd say it definitely has some foundation in truth.
Also, as other people have said, Irish social customs, and what is considered 'good conversation' and Irish humour may be far different to what you are used to.
There is also a unique ettiquette (for want of a better word:) ) in approaching girls here I think, which often involves conferring between 'her people' and 'your people' beforehand.

The above poster also mentioned it and I would agree with it, that Irish girls (and Irish men in general) tend not to be very 'touchy' as in they might feel awkward if you like hug them or touch their arms or something when you've just met them. You might think you're just being polite but it can be seen as rude so just watch out for that maybe.
In general Irish girls are just as nice and relaxed and funny as pretty much girls from anywhere else. Women is women:)

QualderWahl

I find this topic very interesting as an Irish guy who spent several years living in Germany in my early- and mid-twenties. My experience was incredibly similar to that of the original poster. Whilst my German colleagues were really nice and made me feel totally welcome in the context of work, I believe that I only ever saw them socially on the weekends perhaps five times in three years. We frequently went for dinner and beers on a Thursday night but at 5:30 p.m. on Friday evening that was the end of all interaction until Monday morning.

In contrast to the OP, I totally expected this from my indigenous German friends. I had moved to their country and I assumed by default that they had their own lives, friends and interests and it was my responsibility to carve my own niche in German society. I made a large number of foreign friends, including a few Irish with whom I socialised. However, we rarely if ever had a German in our midst. Many of the group complained that the Germans were anti-social, unfriendly and even worse xenophobic. I never subscribed to this view and always believed that they were simply too busy to try to integrate with a group of foreigners who were only in the country for a specified number of years.

I have since returned to Ireland and you would suppose that I would more inclusive to people from abroad given my experiences in Germany. Well guess what? I'm no more inclusive that the average Irish guy who has never lived abroad. The reason for this is that I am simply too busy. The pace of life accelerates exponentially when one graduates from university. Personally, I have too much on my plate holding down a reasonably demanding job, maintaining friendships with old school and university friends and visiting my parents and siblings to be arsed making a big effort to extend our social group to include others.

I am aware that you will respond that this view is totally blinkered and insular but the fact of the matter is that this applies to many people who are working full time. Conversely, you are living abroad and are totally open to new people and experiences. Irish people living in Ireland are in a diametrically opposite mindset. They just want to keep their lives ticking over and many wouldn't have the time or inclination to befriend those of a different culture who may be only in the country on a transitory basis.

My workplace is quite international and to my shame I find myself gravitating towards the other Irish people on my team. The groups in the canteen are generally all Irish or all "x" nationality. Unfortunately human beings are tribal in nature and just want an easy life. This generally means that people stick to what they know and like. I have a question to the OP. How many foreign friends do you have in your homeland? Your answer could be revealatory for you.