Silly Evening Herald article about the Port Tunnel signage...

icdg

The Evening Hearld tonight has an article on Page 19 regarding the signage for the Port Tunnel.

Are they complaining about the dodgey gantries? Nope! They're complaining that the signage for the port tunnel is directing people towards the M50, not realising that the Port Tunnel is the M50 , or part thereof at least, and that the sign (the J1 fork sign is pictured) is simply in common what all other (proper) motorway signage signing the route it is on.

The whole article is written on the premise that the sign is a mistake which needs to be corrected, but the only way they can "correct" it is by giving the Port Tunnel a whole new route number (M35 anyone?). There are signs out there not to far from that one which break the rules, but the one pictured, aside from the wisdom of both directions being signed for the port, is otherwise correct.

secret_squirrel

The Herald is a rag. The sooner everyone stops reading it the better.

They usually take great and hysterical pleasure in getting a story wrong/inflating it out of all proportion.

Voipjunkie

icdg wrote:

The Evening Hearld tonight has an article on Page 19 regarding the signage for the Port Tunnel.

Are they complaining about the dodgey gantries? Nope! They're complaining that the signage for the port tunnel is directing people towards the M50, not realising that the Port Tunnel is the M50 , or part thereof at least, and that the sign (the J1 fork sign is pictured) is simply in common what all other (proper) motorway signage signing the route it is on.

The whole article is written on the premise that the sign is a mistake which needs to be corrected, but the only way they can "correct" it is by giving the Port Tunnel a whole new route number (M35 anyone?). There are signs out there not to far from that one which break the rules, but the one pictured, aside from the wisdom of both directions being signed for the port, is otherwise correct.

Are you sure about that surely the port tunnel if anything it is the M1

the entrance to the port tunnel is at the coolock interchange on the M1 the M50 is back at the previous interchange between the M1/M50/N32

Surely they are not going to call the port tunnel M50 and have a bit of the M1 in between or are they going to change the previous junction and extend the M50 around to the port tunnel ie rename part of the M1

markpb

The tunnel is the M50. The stretch between the south exit of the tunnel and the M1/M50 roundabout has/will become the M50. The M1 will end at the old M1/M50 roundabout and the stretch between the north portals and the Whitehall junction will revert to the N1.

GeorgeBailey

secret_squirrel wrote:

The Herald is a rag. The sooner everyone stops reading it the better.

They usually take great and hysterical pleasure in getting a story wrong/inflating it out of all proportion.

QFT

Quello Serio

If that is true, driving from the West toward the port tunnel would require you to go through a set of traffic lights on the (Current) M50/M1 interchange/roundabout - Can the road qualify as a Motorway if its got a set of lights and a roundabout on it?

Just out of curiosity, what is your source for that information?

markpb wrote:

The tunnel is the M50. The stretch between the south exit of the tunnel and the M1/M50 roundabout has/will become the M50. The M1 will end at the old M1/M50 roundabout and the stretch between the north portals and the Whitehall junction will revert to the N1.

Andrew Duffy

The interchange between the M50, former M1 and N32 is due to be upgraded so the M50 will have freeflowing links to and from the former M1. However, there is no legal problem with having a roundabout on the mainline of a motorway - a motorway is any road the Minister for Transport signs an order for. Incidentally, the M60 around Manchester has a roundabout on the mainline as it, too, was cobbled together out of existing roads.

delly

Yes, the exit from the port tunnel will be the M50 untill the M1/M50 roundabout, but I think it would have been more logical to have it as the M1 all the way as it has been for years.

darkman2

Just noticed today that the road markings are being painted into the tunnel.:)

icdg

Quello Serio wrote:

If that is true, driving from the West toward the port tunnel would require you to go through a set of traffic lights on the (Current) M50/M1 interchange/roundabout - Can the road qualify as a Motorway if its got a set of lights and a roundabout on it?

Just out of curiosity, what is your source for that information?

Its' previously been reported in newspapers and matches what the signage is. Also www.nra.ie refers to the Port Tunnel as the M50. Take a trip from the M50 to Whitehall now and you will come to a green route confirmation sign with "N1" on it not long after the Port Tunnel portals. If the tunnel were the M1, this would have a different route number on it.

Personally I would have thought M1 would make more sense (until and unless the Eastern Bypass is ever built...). But that involves detrunking the existing N1 route, something the NRA does not seem to be prepared to do (it is involved in a turf war with Dublin City Council over who has responsiblity for O'Connell Street).

Diaspora

I agree and would ask the question what Junction numbers will they use as the current numbering arrangement starts at the M1 as Junction 1 and goes anti-clockwise.

icdg

Actually the M1 (and N32) is Junction 3. The next junction, Ballymun, is Junction 4.
Junction 2 is Coolock/Santry.
Junction 1 is the N1, or the no-longer-motorway (on signage at least) former M1. The terminus at East Wall is not numbered.

spacetweek

icdg wrote:

Actually the M1 (and N32) is Junction 3. The next junction, Ballymun, is Junction 4.
Junction 2 is Coolock/Santry.
Junction 1 is the N1, or the no-longer-motorway (on signage at least) former M1. The terminus at East Wall is not numbered.

Is it not as follows:
M50 Jct 1: East Wall
M50 Jct 2: Coolock
M50 Jct 3: M1
M50 Jct 4: Ballymun etc.

The line of Route 1 (N1/M1) is as follows:
O'Connell St.
Dorset St.
Drumcondra Rd
Swords Rd
Whitehall Jct
...
(Follows M50 until M50/M1 interchange)
...
M50/M1 interchange: Start of M1 section, numbered Junction 1
Airport, Balbriggan etc.


None of this is dodgy. The numbering is all consistent (when you know the plan) and having the N1 follow the M50 until the M50/M1 junction is ok - it occurs in other countries (e.g. they're particularly fond of multiplexing routes like this in the States.)

The only problem is the M50 east-south movement taking you through a signal controlled roundabout until 2010.

Victor

It also creates a new concept of "northbound", etc.

The Swordsman

I think calling the PT the M50 will cause a lot of hassle. Drivers unfamiliar with the road will carry on onto the M1 as it is straight ahead, rather than take the existing slip road onto the M50. At least if it were called the M1, these drivers would know that they need to exit the road at some point.

icdg

The idea, presumably, is that in the event of an Eastern Bypass ever being built (subject to about ten years of litigation...) it and the Port Tunnel will form the eastern side of an M50 Dublin Orbitel (with at that point presumably the SEM becoming part of the M11). Not sure it will ever happen.

In fairness, though there's only one other place it happens in Ireland, there are places in the UK where to continue on the same motorway you have to Turn Off To Stay On. The only other Irish motorway/motorway example is at the opposite end of the M50, where in the northbound direction, you have to TOTSO to stay on the M11, the mainline becomes M50. Outside Dublin, and not a motorway, the westbound carrigeway of the N20 becomes the N21 at the Patrickswell interchange, with the N20 contining up the off-ramp and onto the S2 road to Cork.

Bluetonic

The Swordsman wrote:

I think calling the PT the M50 will cause a lot of hassle. Drivers unfamiliar with the road will carry on onto the M1 as it is straight ahead, rather than take the existing slip road onto the M50. At least if it were called the M1, these drivers would know that they need to exit the road at some point.

The road markings will take the flow of traffic naturally onto the slip road.

The Swordsman

Bluetonic wrote:

The road markings will take the flow of traffic naturally onto the slip road.

How? The slip road for the M50 veers quite sharply to the left and there is only one lane. When the tunnel opens, there will three lanes on that stretch of road between the tunnel and the M50.

Motorists naturally assume that, like most roads, the natural continuation of a road is straight ahead. A lot of people will end up in Drogheda when they're trying to get to Tallaght.

Why make the system more complicated than it needs to be? :mad:

The signs which greet motorists as they leave the tunnel are not going to help either. The sign for the left lane lists most of the national routes including the M50. You have to scan down through about ten road numbers which is not easy if you're doing 70. If you're lucky to spot the one you want, you then have to try to make your way into this lane.

BrianD

And the quality of overhead signage that the NRA have decided to use will make it even harder and confusing for motorists.



Of course the NRA will probably cock up the signage on this junction. Mote that on the M11 they have an exit 17 even though it is actually referring to Exit 17 on the M50. They also have some of the oddest overhead signage ever seen anywhere. Or should that be overhead junk.

The M2/M3 junction up in Belfast is not unlike the M50/M1 set up. Except the NI office seem to be able to use signage that is a dream to follow. Check out the o/head gantries and VMS on the M1 as you enter/leave Belfast on your next road trip.

pleba

coming down from the coolock roundabout northbound onto the M1 (or whatever its called now) I noticed what appear to be a (small) set of traffic lights set rather high up.
Am I correct in assuming these are traffic lights, and if so that exit ramp onto the M1 is surely going to get clogged.

markpb

I guess that it might be to stop traffic coming up the N1 and off the Coolock onramp to let the trucks out of the tunnel and into the inside lane. Since traffic from the port is likely to be bursty, it might not be the worst idea. Not nice though.

bryanw

pleba wrote:

coming down from the coolock roundabout northbound onto the M1 (or whatever its called now) I noticed what appear to be a (small) set of traffic lights set rather high up.
Am I correct in assuming these are traffic lights, and if so that exit ramp onto the M1 is surely going to get clogged.

OMG - why does everyone get worried when they see those traffic lights, even the media don't bother to find what they are really for.

The lights are emergency traffic lights in the event that there is something wrong in the tunnel. Hmmm... we really need to get some more road tunnels in this country so people can get used to them! In other countries most road tunnels have traffic lights and its very unlikely you will see them red (unless something is wrong). I also heard that the ones on the Port Tunnel will go red if there is an approaching vehicle which exeeds the height which is picked up on the sensors a bit before the tunnel.

spacetweek

icdg wrote:

The idea, presumably, is that in the event of an Eastern Bypass ever being built (subject to about ten years of litigation...) it and the Port Tunnel will form the eastern side of an M50 Dublin Orbitel (with at that point presumably the SEM becoming part of the M11). Not sure it will ever happen.

In fairness, though there's only one other place it happens in Ireland, there are places in the UK where to continue on the same motorway you have to Turn Off To Stay On. The only other Irish motorway/motorway example is at the opposite end of the M50, where in the northbound direction, you have to TOTSO to stay on the M11, the mainline becomes M50. Outside Dublin, and not a motorway, the westbound carrigeway of the N20 becomes the N21 at the Patrickswell interchange, with the N20 contining up the off-ramp and onto the S2 road to Cork.

There are 2 TOTSOs in the Cork area - the N25/N8 junction and the N25/N22 junction.

robinph

Andrew Duffy wrote:

Incidentally, the M60 around Manchester has a roundabout on the mainline as it, too, was cobbled together out of existing roads.

The M32/ M4 junction in Bristol has both traffic lights and a roundabout and that is just a junction between two motorways and no other minor roads.

mackerski

robinph wrote:

The M32/ M4 junction in Bristol has both traffic lights and a roundabout and that is just a junction between two motorways and no other minor roads.

This is true, but it doesn't interrupt the mainline of the through route. The M32 terminates on the roundabout, the M4 travels over it on a bridge.

Dermot

spacetweek

mackerski wrote:

This is true, but it doesn't interrupt the mainline of the through route. The M32 terminates on the roundabout, the M4 travels over it on a bridge.

Dermot

As pointed out on another thread though there is the example of the M60 near Manchester where, in order to continue on the M60 mainline, you actually have to exit and go through a roundabout.

Victor

spacetweek wrote:

the N25/N22 junction.

Which one would that be?

Bluetonic

bryanw wrote:

OMG - why does everyone get worried when they see those traffic lights, even the media don't bother to find what they are really for.

The lights are emergency traffic lights in the event that there is something wrong in the tunnel. Hmmm... we really need to get some more road tunnels in this country so people can get used to them!

Why would you need emergency lights on a slip road which joins the motorway 150 meters north of the port tunnel portals travelling (northbound) away from the port tunnel and in no way giving access to the port tunnel?

jlang

Bluetonic wrote:

Why would you need emergency lights on a slip road which joins the motorway 150 meters north of the port tunnel portals travelling (northbound) away from the port tunnel and in no way giving access to the port tunnel?

In case of emergency, of course. If there was a problem in the tunnel, the tunnel needs to be evacuated as soon as possible. Having fleeing traffic fight to merge with traffic coming down off an on-slip would not be good. I'm sure there's other usage scenarios, but even if it was "Just in case", it would be enough for me.

Bluetonic

jlang wrote:

but even if it was "Just in case", it would be enough for me.

Agreed.

I was just hoping they weren't going to be a regualr thing to control the flow of traffic. Would be extremely difficult for the drivers of Ireland to merge with traffic from a still starting point going up hill, as we see day to day drivers having difficulty merging.

Victor

I saw in California on some freeway entries that a traffic light is set to go red-green-red-green every few seconds to space out joining traffic.

darkman2

Victor wrote:

I saw in California on some freeway entries that a traffic light is set to go ren-green-red-green every few seconds to space out joining traffic.

I noticed that too and they seem to work well. Does be snarl ups on some of the flyovers though.:rolleyes:

darkman2

Oh the joys. I noticed on the northbound slip onto the M1 at the Coolock interchange the lights on the slip road. The purpose of these is to regulate traffic flow safley onto the motorway. I saw these in LA where they appeared to work well, however they were slips from massive flyovers which could handle the inevitable tailbacks. The Coolock interchange however is not like that: its a roundabout so is this going to work or will this lead to a monumental traffic disaster on the interchange?. I suppose also they had to do it with the merge from the tunnel. If it does work though maybe this is what the future holds for slips on the busy M50 once the upgrade is complete.:rolleyes:

Just as an aside: what in gods name is with the gantry sign Northbound. Its full of route numbers!!! How are ppl suppose to read this properly travelling at M-way speed??

Bluetonic

any need for anther thread on this?

You were already discussing it here!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054974106&page=2

bryanw

I'll give you some quotes from the other topic mentioned...

bryanw wrote:

The lights are emergency traffic lights in the event that there is something wrong in the tunnel. Hmmm... we really need to get some more road tunnels in this country so people can get used to them! In other countries most road tunnels have traffic lights and its very unlikely you will see them red (unless something is wrong). I also heard that the ones on the Port Tunnel will go red if there is an approaching vehicle which exeeds the height which is picked up on the sensors a bit before the tunnel.

jlang wrote:

Bluetonic wrote:

Why would you need emergency lights on a slip road which joins the motorway 150 meters north of the port tunnel portals travelling (northbound) away from the port tunnel and in no way giving access to the port tunnel?

In case of emergency, of course. If there was a problem in the tunnel, the tunnel needs to be evacuated as soon as possible. Having fleeing traffic fight to merge with traffic coming down off an on-slip would not be good. I'm sure there's other usage scenarios, but even if it was "Just in case", it would be enough for me.

Sorry for posting in a repetitive topic.

darkman2

These set of traffic lights are not 'emergency traffic lights'. They are only for traffic management. They are there to space the traffic coming off the slip. The emergency lights are at the entrance to the tunnel. These are different. I think they will become a feature on motorway slips in Dublin over the next few years.

P.S sorry but can someone merge this with the other thread:o

Traffic

The traffic lights on the slip as previously stated are to be used in the event of an emergenvy in the tunnel to stop traffic coming down onto the m50 and allow the tunnel to clear.
They will not be used as ramp metering as seen in other countries.

darkman2

Traffic wrote:

The traffic lights on the slip as previously stated are to be used in the event of an emergenvy in the tunnel to stop traffic coming down onto the m50 and allow the tunnel to clear.
They will not be used as ramp metering as seen in other countries.

Its on the northbound slip off the Coolock interchange. Its to help with the rediculously short merge between this interchange and the M50.

bryanw

darkman2 wrote:

Its on the northbound slip off the Coolock interchange. Its to help with the rediculously short merge between this interchange and the M50.

Do you have any other evidence to suggest this will be the case, other that what you can see yourself?

Because after the traffic leaves the tunnel, the slip + the mainline will become 3 lanes.