Just not on

BrianCalgary

5uspect wrote:

It doesn't lead me anywhere, in the end I die, life is a journey not a destination.
How do you believe one accepts Jesus as their saviour? Is it just belief or do you need to do anything else (like charity etc).

No actions required.

However when you do accept you get a desire to serve Christ by serving others.

Dades

BrianCalgary wrote:

You will suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire. From the same passage as above.

I don't know what scares me more, the lake of fire or the fact that there are adults that really believe there is one.

Maybe it's time for a new "where do good non-Christians go" thread?

Excelsior

What information should I have now that makes belief in Hell any less reasonable than it was in the past?

Where are these good people, Christian or non-Christian?

Excelsior

Sapien wrote:

Charming. I have personally known many christians, Excelsior, of varying degrees. I have never, ever pulled a punch - in person or otherwise. I have few compunctions - but consistency and integrity are among them. I have not been disrespectful.

I think disrespectful is just the word to describe the hounding BC is receiving here. People are pushing him into a corner and triumphantly declaring him judgemental when confronted with scenarios he would never apply in his daily life. It is preposterous to draw conclusions from such childish games.

Sapien wrote:

You may construct polyclausal sentences and evoke quaint metaphorical devices, but you are no more convincing that Brian. Few christians of his cast will shirk from describing those hypothetical categories of people who are destined for Hell. He has said that one who dies a non-christian will go to Hell. Judgement, of the bleakest, deepest kind lies at the heart of his faith - of any faith. Damnation. To inveigle this fact by losing oneself in the writhing, indistinct vagaries of fluffy, new age theology is to display cowardice.

Thankfully your writing is free of convolution.

Is your faith in the nature of all faith equally condemned to the bleak conclusion of judgement?

I am sure BC will proudly join me in your category of cowardice by holding that those who spend their lives refusing relationship with God have their wishes honoured in the afterlife and simultaneously refusing to pass judgement on any individual. If seeking to be disciples of Christ is cowardice, paint me yellow and give me a white flag.

Sapien wrote:

If someone asks you the question: If my father died having not accepted Christ as his Saviour, would he now be in Hell? - you should say what you believe. Or are the mechanics of Salvation not so clear?

The problem with your proposition is clear and it is hard for me to not see a cynical conceit considering the length of this hounding that BC has endured. Neither you nor I can tell if someone else has accepted Christ as Saviour. If any individual knows they are reconciled to God through faith in Jesus then liberation and communion with God is their destiny. Each person must be agnostic with regards to every one else, from Mother Theresa to your hypothetical father.

Sapien wrote:

I don't think you really consider my motivations in pursuing this issue cheap. If you do, that's regrettable, but perhaps you are not in a position to approach this topic rationally. As I said, I considered his response to the OP to be hypocritical, and his subsequence evasion of the question, and now yours, pusillanimous. I have no desire to make friends in this forum - as a gay occultist that's hardly an option - but I do determine to extend to its posters an honest perspective and the unbending benefit of my analysis.

I am friends with occultists. I am friends with homosexuals. I don't think there is any intersection between those two venn diagrams in my social circle yet but there is again, a sad prejudice coming through when you think your beliefs and practices would be a barrier to friendship. Let's go for a drink Sapien!

Your unbending analysis seems to me to be as warped by your world view as you claim mine to be. But don't bother with my opinion- it must be irrational as it is defined by the pusillanimous and deceptive nature of Christian faith.

Dades

Excelsior wrote:

What information should I have now that makes belief in Hell any less reasonable than it was in the past?

I thought we could consider ourselves a little less susceptible to fantastic claims. I'd understand if people considered Hell allegorical like, say, 6-day creation. Punishment for crime when the bible was written was so much more severe. It's not too much of a stretch to suggest that the 2000 year-old idea of Hell is a reflection of those times.

Excelsior wrote:

Where are these good people, Christian or non-Christian?

They are merely the secular and non-secular travellers on the Clapham omnibus. They don't have to be anyone specific.

Sapien

Excelsior wrote:

I think disrespectful is just the word to describe the hounding BC is receiving here. People are pushing him into a corner and triumphantly declaring him judgemental when confronted with scenarios he would never apply in his daily life. It is preposterous to draw conclusions from such childish games.

It is not preposterous. I am not playing games. I think you realise that I am quite serious. Really, that's the problem - I'm being too serious. I have danced the christian dance enough times, but this time I couldn't quite stomach it. There are uglinesses laced throughout evangelical christian belief set, and people like you, Excelsior, do an excellent job of distracting people from them with your indefatigably sunny disposition and your invariably measured temperament. BC, I happily admit, seems a thoroughly good sort. But he believes that the vast majority of human beings are damned, FullOF**IT's father among them. I did not feel inclined to let that fact slide by without so much as a hiccough of discomfort. I felt like holding him to account for it, if only just this once. To encounter the emotional consequences of his religion.

Excelsior wrote:

Thankfully your writing is free of convolution.

Of course it isn't, and I never claimed it was. Nor did I intend to disparage you in any way in this respect. You may have misinterpreted my tone.

Excelsior wrote:

Is your faith in the nature of all faith equally condemned to the bleak conclusion of judgement?

I have no idea what this sentence means.

Excelsior wrote:

The problem with your proposition is clear and it is hard for me to not see a cynical conceit considering the length of this hounding that BC has endured. Neither you nor I can tell if someone else has accepted Christ as Saviour. If any individual knows they are reconciled to God through faith in Jesus then liberation and communion with God is their destiny. Each person must be agnostic with regards to every one else, from Mother Theresa to your hypothetical father.

Here is where we differ, Excelsior. Here, in what you write above, I see cynicism. Evasion, dissimulation, obfuscation, and equivocation. I do not accuse you of deliberate deceit, but of existing willingly under an intellectual laziness of the most seductive and ignominious kind. The deathbed confession device allows you to avoid bringing your beliefs into contact with personal reality. You say it is out of rigour - fine. I believe that it is an unattractive and, frankly, silly aspect of your theology which you are forced to exaggerate so that you may avoid awkward and offensive confrontations of the very type that I highlight in this thread. Nevertheless, I have allowed for this, phrasing my question conditionally - hypothetically - such that FullOF**IT's father would only be damned if FullOF**IT's understanding of his father's dying spiritual convictions were accurate. But this hypothetical question still went unanswered, because BC recognised that for FullOF**IT it was not really hypothetical, but was of personal consequence. While technically and theologically a sound question, he would not answer. The reason? Embarrassment, shame, cowardice.

On a parallel thread BC claims that he would sooner be shot than deny one of his "dogmas". Here he would sooner avoid affirming a dogma than commit a conversational faux pas.

Excelsior wrote:

I am friends with occultists. I am friends with homosexuals. I don't think there is any intersection between those two venn diagrams in my social circle yet but there is again, a sad prejudice coming through when you think your beliefs and practices would be a barrier to friendship. Let's go for a drink Sapien!

I shall not insult us both by pretending that that would be a remotely comfortable thing for either of us to do. I take the topics we discuss here seriously; I suspect you do too. You believe I am on the path to an eternity in Hell, I believe you are infected by a virulent cognitive disease. If you do not believe that this is a barrier to friendship, you either intend a radically different meaning for the word "friendship", or you, like BC, seek to sequester your beliefs from the reality of your association with other people.

Excelsior wrote:

Your unbending analysis seems to me to be as warped by your world view as you claim mine to be. But don't bother with my opinion- it must be irrational as it is defined by the pusillanimous and deceptive nature of Christian faith.

I bother with your opinion, because it is evident to me that you are intelligent. But yes, I believe your perspective is warped - of course I do. Is your counter-claim any more than an obvious retaliation, however? What is my world view? What motivates me to scour the opinions of an evangelical christian? To what truths does my world view blind me? What ideas does it prevent me from fully considering?

5uspect

At first I felt that Sapien was being too hard on Brian Calgary.
Brian believes that refusal to accept jesus as saviour sends you to hell.

BrianCalgary wrote:

No actions required.

However when you do accept you get a desire to serve Christ by serving others.

It all sounds fairly harmless...
But then I decided to follow up on the posts that Sapien mentioned, for example:

BrianCalgary wrote:

Dogma I would die for (ie. if someone held a gun to my head and said deny Christ's deity or I shoot my response would be: shoot), the others not so as important.

Brian Calgary defines dogma as

BrianCalgary wrote:

...something that is factual. Gravity is factual. Mathematical equations are factual. God's existence is factual. Jesus being God is factual.

Now what if some one did put a gun to Brians head and made this demand. Of course Brian Calgary has already made his decision. I find this very disturbing. Not only is Brian Calgary willing to die for his beliefs he is willing to abandon his family for them. He also assumes his beliefs are factual without any evidence other than stories from the bible and hold the same weight as the scientific principles that are used to run my computer and the one you are using now.

I think it is fair to say that most religious people are somewhat agnostic about their faith. They feel that there is a god but they're not 100% sure. And I'm sure with a gun put to their head they would gladly pick to live with their families than face the uncertainity of death. I'm sure someone will mention Peter's denial of Jesus in the Bible here but there is a big difference between acknowledgeing that you either know someone or believe something may be true and believing beyond any doubt that something is true.

What I'm getting at here is that even though Brian Calgary claims that his beliefs are 100% factual he cannot prove it. No one can (in fact no one can prove that any of them are factual).

Brian Calgary you need at accept that your dogma is just a blind belief. Sapien is holding a gun to your head asking you to state your belief, not to deny it. You said that I am on the path to hell becase I don't accept your beliefs, if the OPs father did not make a deathbed repentance then by your logic he is in hell. If he did then he is saved. This is not judging him just being consistent with what you preach. Of course nobody knows exactly where the OPs father is. I think he is in his coffin in the ground.

This religous meme has totally infected your mind, you place your very survival and that of your family beneath it. It is little wonder that religious fundamentalism is growing so much today when those willing to die for their beliefs follow such rigid belief systems compared to the more common belief memes where infection is not so terminal.

UU

How very interesting 5uspect!

I was thinking along those lines too! The thing I'd like to point out is that there is a huge difference between spirituality and as you said "blind faith" (i.e. religion). In my opinion, I think many of the world religions ido not work. What do I mean by "do not work"? Well doesn't everything have some sort of purpose to it? What is the purpose of living in complete "blind faith"? I think many strict religious people live in an unrealistic world in their heads which is insane!!! You see, at present, most humans are controlled by their minds, that is, their ego. Many use things, objects, labels to feed their ego. Religious fundamentalists use their religion as a means to feed their ego. This give arise to a false sense of self. Religion has become corrupted, diseased by the ego - it has become unconsious. Most humans are insane - they are unconsious, unawakened to reality. Humans are perhaps the most sick species on this planet. That is not a judgement, that is a fact that I need not explain.

While religion once helped people, it now destroys people. The true spirituality that existed in these religious systems is now covered by layers and layers of unnessessary baggage, filth, grime. True spirituality comes from within, from out sense of self, from the joy of Being. If people could focus their attention on the Now, the here and now and not on the worries of the past and future, they'd be better already!

Let me ask you Brian, when do you ever stop thinking about religion, about your faith? Can you free yourself from your mind and experience something so vast, so remarkable, that you can't put words to it? What is the purpose of living in such religious insanity where you think everyone who is not this and that, is going to hell? I'm not condemning you, I'm challenging you.

5uspect

UU wrote:

You see, at present, most humans are controlled by their minds, that is, their ego.

All humans are controlled by their minds. It is the conscious and unconscious feedback from the world we inhabit that allows us to survive and die in it. Any concept that we have of the world has come from a human mind.

John Doe

Sapien, I really don't understand why you are pursuing Brian like this. It seems clear that you are coming into this discussion with a clear idea of what you want Brian to say: that FullOf..IT's father is in hell, upon which point we can all say "Ooh that nasty judgemental Christian is being soooo mean". To commence a discussion with a preset expectation of someone else's response is just not on! This may not be true, but it is certainly true that something is preventing you from accepting Brian's answer.

I think that if you weren't so bent on getting this particular response, you might accept the fairly straightforward answer that Brian has given: he doesn't know the man, so he can't judge. In fact, as a Christian, he couldn't judge even if he did know him, although he could give an opinion (I suppose, I'm not entirely clear on that). You said that in order to be saved, one would need to know what actions lead to salvation etc. Of course, but no-one needs to (or indeed can) know what another's thoughts and convictions are.

Sapien wrote:

I think it's terribly convenient for the about-to-be deceased

I find this ridiculous. I could, if I really wanted to, devote the rest of my life to helping other exclusively, doing good works etc. There is no way that I could suddenly believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God etc. (I know this because I don't, and I've tried). Surely you don't think that someone could get away with fooling God (if there is a God) into thinking they hold the requisite faith?

Asiaprod

John Doe wrote:

In fact, as a Christian, he couldn't judge even if he did know him, although he could give an opinion (I suppose, I'm not entirely clear on that). You said that in order to be saved, one would need to know what actions lead to salvation etc. Of course, but no-one needs to (or indeed can) know what another's thoughts and convictions are.

If we accept that as true, then how can we accept the dogma that says this type of person is bound for hell. This is problem here I think. The dogma says going to Hell and Brian says he cannot say what is fact. Then for me, Brian's action would be deemed as the correct choice, and the the dogma, which states quite clearly the punishment, is incorrect. They cannot both be right.

One of the problems for me with christianity is the failure to appreciate that many of the dogma were written over 1500 years ago. They may have been applicable then, but are they applicable now. The world and humanity has moved on. If there were a God and there were heaven and hell I have no doubt that going to heaven or hell would be determined by how one led their life. (I am not discussing Grace). I think Sapien's point is very valid and I understand the catch-22 nature of the argument. This is one argument that is not going to go away in a hurry till someone edits the good books and brings them up to date. Interesting to note that only now has Lee Dunnes' "Goodbye to the Hill" finally got approval from the censors to be shown in Ireland with a 12A rating. In the words of the censor, What was considered inappropriate during the 70s is no longer considered inappropriate in 2006.
Might not the same approach be adopted with things religion. It would certainly make life more peaceful

BrianCalgary

Asiaprod wrote:

If we accept that as true, then how can we accept the dogma that says this type of person is bound for hell. This is problem here I think. The dogma says going to Hell and Brian says he cannot say what is fact. Then for me, Brian's action would be deemed as the correct choice, and the the dogma, which states quite clearly the punishment, is incorrect. They cannot both be right.

Two different issues here.

Issue 1 is salvation: belief in and a desire to be in communion with Christ leads to the communion which is Heaven and described in the Bible, pretty good place. Unbelief in Christ and a desire to be seperate from Him is honoured when dead, this state is called and described as Hell. Of this there is certainty.

Issue 2: Is the OP's dad in Heaven or Hell. Of this I can't be certain because I never met the guy.

So one issue there is certainty, of the second issue I can't judge.

Well said John Doe, that is my exact feeling regarding Sapien's badgering.

BrianCalgary

5uspect wrote:

Now what if some one did put a gun to Brians head and made this demand. Of course Brian Calgary has already made his decision. I find this very disturbing. Not only is Brian Calgary willing to die for his beliefs he is willing to abandon his family for them..

No abandonment of family, we all are reunited in Heaven. God's plan to take me home a little early for the people here is tough as I would be missed, but the joy in th ereunion is priceless.

5uspect wrote:

He also assumes his beliefs are factual without any evidence other than stories from the bible and hold the same weight as the scientific principles that are used to run my computer and the one you are using now...

No assumption. I have experience the love and grace of God and heave met Him one on one, and as a result He is as real as the computer I am clicking away on now.

5uspect wrote:

I think it is fair to say that most religious people are somewhat agnostic about their faith. They feel that there is a god but they're not 100% sure.

I don't think taht this is fair to say at all.

5uspect wrote:

And I'm sure with a gun put to their head they would gladly pick to live with their families than face the uncertainity of death.

Maybe, maybe not. Quite an assumption.

5uspect wrote:

What I'm getting at here is that even though Brian Calgary claims that his beliefs are 100% factual he cannot prove it. No one can (in fact no one can prove that any of them are factual)..

All we can do is continue to tell what Jesus does for us, and what He has done for others. You can choose to be blind to the testimonies if you wish.

5uspect wrote:

Brian Calgary you need at accept that your dogma is just a blind belief.

That would be like accepting that because I never have seen a platypus, that they don't exist. Jesus is real, the books He inspired are real, and the truths that are contained in those books are real.

5uspect wrote:

Sapien is holding a gun to your head asking you to state your belief, not to deny it.

No he is not. He is holding a gun to my head asking me to pass judgement on someone that I never had th epleasure to have known. I have stated mu understanding of salvation and judgement a number of times.

5uspect wrote:

You said that I am on the path to hell becase I don't accept your beliefs,.

I told Robin where he is heading not you. It sounds as if you are making the judgement on yourself without my help.

5uspect wrote:

if the OPs father did not make a deathbed repentance then by your logic he is in hell. If he did then he is saved. ,.

I think you have got it.

5uspect wrote:

This is not judging him just being consistent with what you preach. Of course nobody knows exactly where the OPs father is.,.

AMEN, you have gotten it.

5uspect wrote:

I think he is in his coffin in the ground..,.

Pretty cut and dried, dogmatic statement here.

5uspect wrote:

This religous meme has totally infected your mind, you place your very survival and that of your family beneath it. It is little wonder that religious fundamentalism is growing so much today when those willing to die for their beliefs follow such rigid belief systems compared to the more common belief memes where infection is not so terminal.

Define 'fundamentalism'? Then I can plead guilty or innocent.

BrianCalgary

UU wrote:

While religion once helped people, it now destroys people. The true spirituality that existed in these religious systems is now covered by layers and layers of unnessessary baggage, filth, grime. True spirituality comes from within, from out sense of self, from the joy of Being. If people could focus their attention on the Now, the here and now and not on the worries of the past and future, they'd be better already! .

just highlighting your belief here UU. Where does it come from?

UU wrote:

Let me ask you Brian, when do you ever stop thinking about religion, about your faith?.

Never stop thinking about my faith.

UU wrote:

Can you free yourself from your mind and experience something so vast, so remarkable, that you can't put words to it? ?.

i am free because of my faith in Christ.

UU wrote:

What is the purpose of living in such religious insanity where you think everyone who is not this and that, is going to hell? I'm not condemning you, I'm challenging you.

It strikes me as curious that people will condemn Christians for understanding that those who do not accept Christ will end up in total seperation from God. A place described as Hell. A place that they have chosen because thay want nothing to do with God.

Since they want nothing to do with God, they don't believe in Hell BUT get quite disturbed when they are told that it is where they are going?

But to get to th epurpose, it is to spread the news that a life with Christ is a very fulfilling life. My life since turning it over to Christ has never been better. I have had the opportunity to travel to places where I never could have gone. To meet some pretty special people. To experience the joy of others accomplisments, but to name a few.

What is your purpose in life? and why do you do it?

hairyheretic

BrianCalgary wrote:

No assumption. I have experience the love and grace of God and heave met Him one on one, and as a result He is as real as the computer I am clicking away on now.

So what would you say to those who have equal faith or experiences with their beliefs? Are their deities equally as real as yours? Are their afterlifes equally possible?

robindch

> I told Robin where he is heading not you.

Out of interest -- when you're telling that I'll be suffering an eternity of misery in the fires of hell, do you ever imagine that there could be the slightest chance that you might be wrong?

BrianCalgary

hairyheretic wrote:

So what would you say to those who have equal faith or experiences with their beliefs? Are their deities equally as real as yours? Are their afterlifes equally possible?

They get to spend an eternity with their god.

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote:

> I told Robin where he is heading not you.

Out of interest -- when you're telling that I'll be suffering an eternity of misery in the fires of hell, do you ever imagine that there could be the slightest chance that you might be wrong?

Same chance as you being wrong about evolution.

robindch

> Same chance as you being wrong about evolution.

That's not what I asked

For the record, I accept that the idea of differential reproductive success (what you refer to as 'evolution') explains the diversity of species we see. If good evidence comes to light that suggests that it's wrong, then I'll happily chuck the notion of differential reproductive success and go with the better explanation. See a more concise expression of this here, especially the third paragraph.

So, I ask you again:

Do you ever imagine that there could be the slightest chance that you might be wrong in condemning me to an eternity in the flames of hell?

.

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote:

So, I ask you again:

Do you ever imagine that there could be the slightest chance that you might be wrong in condemning me to an eternity in the flames of hell?

.

I can not entertain the idea that 'Hell doesn't exist', nor that those who reject God will end up in such a state.

I do not condemn you there, you condemn yourself as a reult of the choices you make in thi slife.

robindch

> I can not entertain the idea that 'Hell doesn't exist

How come not?

> you condemn yourself

No, I'm afraid I don't. It's your belief system which condemns me, and you support this condemnation, by support of the belief system.

Again, out of interest, bearing in mind that the Law should be upheld, do you believe that I should be stoned to death in line with the instructions -- for people who do not believe in the correct god in Israel -- which are laid down in Deuteronomy 17:2-7:

If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from among you.

UU

BrianCalgary wrote:

just highlighting your belief here UU. Where does it come from?

True spirituality comes from within, from out sense of self, from the joy of Being. No. That is not MY belief. It is nobody's possession. It is not a belief in fact. It is what IS. The fact is that many people are in such a state of unconsiousness that they fail to recognise it as the ever present reality. They fail to accept this reality, the Now. This statement was just a group of letters formed into words which only serve the purpose to act as signposts to the unnamable, to the Greater Reality, to God. But they aren't what IS. For if I was to tell somebody to believe in this and that, I'd be planning out my own downfall. For to truly be consious of what I speak of goes beyond the level of thought. What I say cannot be understood by the mind as that has not the ability to comprehend what I speak of. What I speak of can only be experienced by the individual.

Never stop thinking about my faith.

Stop thinking! Faith cannot be THOUGHT about. The mind does not understand what faith is. Again, you do not own faith - it is not YOUR faith. Faith has no owner. It is what it is. To understand faith, has to come from within, from going beyond the level of thought. Remember my words as only mere signposts for what I speak of is far greater than any mind-centred religions that exist today.

i am free because of my faith in Christ.

Are you truly free? Ask yourself that question. If you are free what is it that you are free of? If you live in a state of unconsiousness, then liberation has not arrived on your doorstep yet.

It strikes me as curious that people will condemn Christians for understanding that those who do not accept Christ will end up in total seperation from God. A place described as Hell. A place that they have chosen because thay want nothing to do with God.

I condemn nobody for I have nothing to condemn them for. But is hell a place? If it were then it would exist in our world, the Manisfested. But do not condemn anyone for to do so you must condemn yourself first.

Since they want nothing to do with God, they don't believe in Hell BUT get quite disturbed when they are told that it is where they are going?

Again that is inner conflict. Yet no human knows where people do go after death. You could tell an atheist tomorrow that he / she will burn in hell but you do not know that for certain.

But to get to the purpose, it is to spread the news that a life with Christ is a very fulfilling life. My life since turning it over to Christ has never been better. I have had the opportunity to travel to places where I never could have gone. To meet some pretty special people. To experience the joy of others accomplisments, but to name a few.

Many people have had pretty fulfilling lives as non-Christians too. Many Muslims and other people I know have had great travels like you have had, have met pretty special people like you have had and have also experienced the joy of others accomplishments too. Little do many people of different faiths realise how much they are like each other. Do you know why? Because you are just like a Muslim or a Buddhist, etc. We are all humans and we are connected to what is.

What is your purpose in life? and why do you do it?

I have many purposes in life. One is to open the box of treasure that I am sitting on as a begger. To do this, I become the stranger who passes by other beggers to help them discover the boxes of gold they are sitting on. Or in short: "In your lifetime make this world a better place". If your mind is confused what I speak of, maybe your deepest self will. Here is the full parable I speak of:

A begger had been sitting by the side of a road for over thirty years. One day a stranger walked by. "Spare some change?" mumbled the begger, mechanically holding out his old baseball cap. "I have nothing to give you," said the stranger. Then he asked: "What's that you are sitting on?" "Nothing," replied the begger. "Just an old box. I have been sitting on it as long as I can remember." Ever looked inside?" asked the stranger. "No," said the begger. "What's the point? There's nothing in there." "Have a look inside," insisted the stranger. The begger managed to pry open the lid. With astonishment, disbelief and elation, he saw that the box was filled with gold.

robindch

> Faith cannot be THOUGHT about. The mind does not understand what faith is.

UU, you're wrong here. Religious belief most certainly can be thought about and it can be understood in fairly good detail, too. Unfortunately, what comes out at the far end isn't the nicest thing in the planet, but the journey from no understanding of the nature of belief to some limited understanding is quite fascinating. And worth thinking about, of course!

BrianCalgary

UU wrote:

True spirituality comes from within, from out sense of self, from the joy of Being. No. That is not MY belief. :

So is it true or not? If you don't believe it why say it?

UU wrote:

It is nobody's possession. It is not a belief in fact. It is what IS. :

Of course it is. Because I believe something, it makes it my belief. The belief can be shared by many, but mine is still mine.

UU wrote:

They fail to accept this reality, the Now.:

So what is reality?

UU wrote:

This statement was just a group of letters formed into words which only serve the purpose to act as signposts to the unnamable, to the Greater Reality, to God..:

God is quite nameable. Read the Bible and you can get to know Him quite well.

UU wrote:

Stop thinking! ..:

And you call fundamentalists dangerous. What a world we would live in if everyone stopped thinking about who they where and what their purpose was.

UU wrote:

Faith cannot be THOUGHT about. The mind does not understand what faith is. Again, you do not own faith - it is not YOUR faith. Faith has no owner...:

I certainly think about faith. Where is my faith put. What and who do I trust? My faith is mine. And I will share it with whoever asks.

UU wrote:

To understand faith, has to come from within, from going beyond the level of thought. Remember my words as only mere signposts for what I speak of is far greater than any mind-centred religions that exist today.

Thankfully Christianity is not a mind centred religion. But a faith in giving your life to one whom you trust, Jesus. One who gave His life for you, out of love.

UU wrote:

Are you truly free? Ask yourself that question. If you are free what is it that you are free of?

I am free, free from a life of sin that consumes me. Free to give of myself to those that are less fortunate. Free to mentor younger teenagers.

UU wrote:

If you live in a state of unconsiousness, then liberation has not arrived on your doorstep yet.?

Believe me I am fully consciuos.

UU wrote:

I condemn nobody for I have nothing to condemn them for. But is hell a place?

Christians condemn no one either. People condemn themselves. Th eBible says that Hell is a place.

UU wrote:

If it were then it would exist in our world, the Manisfested.

Why would it have to exist in our world? I have seen a bit of it in East Vancouver.

UU wrote:

But do not condemn anyone for to do so you must condemn yourself first.Again that is inner conflict. Yet no human knows where people do go after death.

No inner conflict here at all. God tells us believe and trust in Him and Heaven it is. Based on that promise I know where I am going.

UU wrote:

You could tell an atheist tomorrow that he / she will burn in hell but you do not know that for certain.Many people have had pretty fulfilling lives as non-Christians too. Many Muslims and other people I know have had great travels like you have had, have met pretty special people like you have had and have also experienced the joy of others accomplishments too. Little do many people of different faiths realise how much they are like each other.

I have never questioned this at all. But how much more fulfilling their lives would be if it was centred around Christ? You see UU being on both sides of the fence, life is just that much greater when entrusted to the One who knows.

UU wrote:

Do you know why? Because you are just like a Muslim or a Buddhist, etc. :

Disggree with you here. My strength comes from Christ, my joy comes from Him, my identity is found in Him. Neither the Muslim nor the Buddhist receives from Jesus. That is the difference. Our attitudes toward our fellow man can be identical, our dreams for humanity can be similar.

UU wrote:

We are all humans and we are connected to what is.:

So what is 'what is', can you tell me what I am connected to? I'd like to know.

UU wrote:

I have many purposes in life. One is to open the box of treasure that I am sitting on as a begger. To do this, I become the stranger who passes by other beggers to help them discover the boxes of gold they are sitting on. Or in short: "In your lifetime make this world a better place". If your mind is confused what I speak of, maybe your deepest self will. Here is the full parable I speak of:

And from the parable: the little box of gold on which you sit is filled by Jesus Christ, the treasure to set you free, the way the truth and the life.

UU

I'm sorry Brian. I cannot help you as much I possibly try. You see, you are trying to understand what I am saying with your mind, not from your deeper self. As much as I'd like to debate with you it is very difficult. All I can say is to accept 'what is', surrender to the Now, become ever present, ever consious and do not identify with your mind, your ego which is your "false sense of self". None of these are beliefs what I speak of. They are mere guidelines to opening that box of treasure. The box is not filled by Jesus Christ, it is filled by Enlightenment. That is the true meaning behind the parable. But don't get attached to words

So what is 'what is', can you tell me what I am connected to? I'd like to know.

What is is what is. Accepting the timeless Now, the reality but much more than that. You are connected to something far more vast, infinite, timeless yet so simple that labelling it would be unnessessary. It has been given many names but names aren't what it is: God, the Unmanisfested, Being. Again, only you can truly understand by experiencing. The consiousness I speak of is not the consiousness you claim to possess. I can advice you to read "The Power Of Now" by Eckhart Tolle which might help you understand what I'm talking about. It helped me. This is not religion, it is what is.

UU

robindch wrote:

> Faith cannot be THOUGHT about. The mind does not understand what faith is.

UU, you're wrong here. Religious belief most certainly can be thought about and it can be understood in fairly good detail, too. Unfortunately, what comes out at the far end isn't the nicest thing in the planet, but the journey from no understanding of the nature of belief to some limited understanding is quite fascinating. And worth thinking about, of course!

Yes. I am wrong. I accept what is. Indeed, belief can be thought about but is a very limited thing as it is the mind's projection of what it regards as the truth. In reality of course, it may not be the truth. Yet, the mind fights back. It says "I am right, and you are wrong", "What I believe in is right and what you believe in is wrong". That is not YOU speaking, that is the ego speaking because the ego needs something to give it power. Beliefs are just mere thoughts that swarm around in the mind. Nothing more than that.

What I am attempting to convey is far greater than belief. For what it is, the mind cannot possibly understand as it goes beyond (above) the level of thought. This is the stepping stone to what each of our religious systems point to yet many humans fail to see it. It is all around us, we are a part of it, few have experienced it. Those who have are certainly remembered - The Buddha, Jesus, Gandi are a few to name. Some have experienced it through mainly intense suffering.

Maybe someday you may experience what I speak of.

T-1111111111111

UU wrote:

Yes. I am wrong. I accept what is. Indeed, belief can be thought about but is a very limited thing as it is the mind's projection of what it regards as the truth. In reality of course, it may not be the truth. Yet, the mind fights back. It says "I am right, and you are wrong", "What I believe in is right and what you believe in is wrong". That is not YOU speaking, that is the ego speaking because the ego needs something to give it power. Beliefs are just mere thoughts that swarm around in the mind. Nothing more than that.

What I am attempting to convey is far greater than belief. For what it is, the mind cannot possibly understand as it goes beyond (above) the level of thought. This is the stepping stone to what each of our religious systems point to yet many humans fail to see it. It is all around us, we are a part of it, few have experienced it. Those who have are certainly remembered - The Buddha, Jesus, Gandi are a few to name. Some have experienced it through mainly intense suffering.

Maybe someday you may experience what I speak of.

So, why are you sticking with something you cannot understand?? Doesn't make sense.

btw, what's the benefit of this unnecessary and illogical illusion? you were not, now you are, then ur not again, where do you go? I'd say none of the living creatures will be alive in 80, 90, maybe 100 years from now. And then what? And what is ego? Prove that there is one (and I dont mean no yoghurt as "ego yoghurt"). whatz the purpose of all this, boards.ie, my yest's lunch, a cup of tea, why is the sky blue and then sometimes is not, why do i have a mum and dad, why was i not born a bird instead of human, etc.................

all coming to a single point - why doing something if u cant understand it???!!?

ps belief without proofs is like a house of cards anyway.

Dades

UU wrote:

Maybe someday you may experience what I speak of.

With respect UU - what are you on about? You sound like a cross between Yoda and Master Po.

How did you become so enlightened all of a sudden? You don't even have a religion. It seems you have ideas floating about in your head like butterflies in the breeze. Not the best basis to go proselytizing a Christian who believes you will burn in hell for it.

Asiaprod

UU wrote:

What is is what is. Accepting the timeless Now, the reality but much more than that. You are connected to something far more vast, infinite, timeless yet so simple that labelling it would be unnessessary.

UU, in Buddhism we have a saying

"So you see everything, yet you don't see your eyebrows, right in front of your face.

That would be my comment to Eckhart Tolle and The Power of Now. Its interesting, for a while. Then you get the message, throw away your responsibilities and live powerful in the present. I'll be polite and say Poppycock. But then what else would you expect a Buddhist to say when Tolle so casually throws aside the past, and discounts the future saying live and enjoy the now, my way. Only 7$ if you order before midnight. Ha. Of course you will pick something meaningful from somewhere within its pages, but it is no recipe to happiness, enlightenment, heaven or anywhere else.

You are beginning to echo this a little. If I were you, I would put the book away. Its not you.

Talliesin

Sapien wrote:

The Atheist wrote:

Perhaps there is a time and place for saying what you believe to be true.

Agreed. I would think that a forum devoted to discussion of those beliefs is a good place, and when one is asked about ones beliefs is a good time.

This forum is a perfectly great place to discuss it, but not necessarily this thread.

As far as I can see Catholic doctrine (and IIRC the proselytisers the OP talked about where Catholic) says I'm going to hell. I've rejected their saviour and their god, and don't even had ignorance of their faith giving me the softer option of limbo, since I was raised Catholic.

Obviously I don't agree.

It doesn't particularly upset me that some people believe I'm going to hell, but that doesn't mean I would like to think of someone pushing the matter with my children if I passed.

I wouldn't like to think of someone pushing the matter of what happened physically to my body after I died either, its not a matter of belief, nor is it as if I'm squeamish about such decay, its a matter of compassion and decency.

BC's post condemned the actions of the doorsteppers in this regard, which shows the compassion and decency I'm speaking off.

Your posts however have pushed the matter, and that does not.