Just not on

FullOf..IT

Hi,

I came home from work today to find my little sister a little upset.

About half an hour before i came home a couple of fanatics knocked at my house and proceded to ask my sisters certain questions about the commitment of her faith and how she applied it (does she go to mass etc). She told them that she didnt and they asked her had her father died and did he go to mass (my da died in 1992). They obviously knew that he was deceased and then they said that she would go to hell because she didnt go to mass.

This didnt really bother her but then they said that my da was in hell because he didnt go to mass ( my da was a protestant although he didnt practice). She shut the door and start crying until I found her.

Who do these people think they are saying these things.
I am not a devoted christian but i try to lead a life that does no harm to others and i try to look for the good in everyone and these are the principles i try to install in my sister.

If devoted catholics are going round using inquisition style tatics to influence people to practice a faith which I feel has been taken out of context for personal greed then i look forward to the day that it becomes obsolete.

BrianCalgary

I am so sorry for what happened. People like that I think are going to have to answer for their actions.

IMO actions like that turn people away from God.

Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

I am so sorry for what happened. People like that I think are going to have to answer for their actions.

IMO actions like that turn people away from God.

Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Do you believe the father is in Hell?

robnubis

If ppl need to go door to door to preach releigion, then they have lowered that releigion to the same levels door to door sales people...

Puck

Let me state this as clear as I can (... with the usual blahblah this is only what I believe blah blah blah you are entitled to your own beliefs blah blah lets all be friends disclaimer):

Not going to mass will not condemn you to hell. These people are arseholes. Whether they truly believe what they said or not, their intention in saying it like they did could only have been to hurt your little sister. I'm very sorry she was bullied by these people. Sometimes I'd like to think Jesus would slap them "upside the head" but he'd probably have a better way of handleing it than that.

robindch

> a couple of fanatics knocked at my house and proceded to ask

I sympathize. Last saturday morning, here in Sandymount, I had two JW Koreans turn up trying to sell me their own-brand religion, so I told them I was an atheist and that seemed to do the trick after a bit of polite backing and forthing. Though even the claim to atheism didn't work with one group of local catholics who tried to guilt-trip me into supporting them. Horrible!

> they have lowered that releigion to the same levels door to door sales people...

Some people claim that the established religions don't have to do the door-to-door because they've already got the schools and wide public support; or, if you're in the US, they've got the congress, the senate, the presidency, some of the judiciary and some of the supreme court as well...

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

Do you believe the father is in Hell?

I don't know, because I don't know the dad or anything about his relationship to God.

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

I don't know, because I don't know the dad or anything about his relationship to God.

Apparently he was a non-practicing Protestant. So, presumably, he was baptised at birth but had no religious involvement or interest in adulthood. Correct me if I'm wrong, FullOf..IT.

Would such a person be damned, BC?

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

Apparently he was a non-practicing Protestant. So, presumably, he was baptised at birth but had no religious involvement or interest in adulthood. Correct me if I'm wrong, FullOf..IT.

Would such a person be damned, BC?

There is no way that I can make a judgement on someone I have never met.

FullOf..IT

Sapien wrote:

Apparently he was a non-practicing Protestant. So, presumably, he was baptised at birth but had no religious involvement or interest in adulthood. Correct me if I'm wrong, FullOf..IT.

You have it about right. He wasnt an athesist as he believed in a higher being but as I said he didnt practice christianity. I myself cannot stand organised religion as most of the vealots are very hypocritical and do not truely practice the teachings of christ / mohammed / buddha etc.

Whats drives me crazy is that people who drink out of golden chalices and wear fancy sunday clothes have probably condemned me and my pagan family to hell.

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

There is no way that I can make a judgement on someone I have never met.

Why not? You are in possession of the salient facts. Have the courage of your convictions.

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

Why not? You are in possession of the salient facts. Have the courage of your convictions.

I have my convictions, they are clear, but I DO NOT know the person in question. It is up to God to make the judgement. As Full of it said: 'Whats drives me crazy is that people who drink out of golden chalices and wear fancy sunday clothes have probably condemned me and my pagan family to hell.'

It is up to God to grant someone their eternal wish, not I.

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

I have my convictions, they are clear, but I DO NOT know the person in question. It is up to God to make the judgement. As Full of it said: 'Whats drives me crazy is that people who drink out of golden chalices and wear fancy sunday clothes have probably condemned me and my pagan family to hell.'

It is up to God to grant someone their eternal wish, not I.

Are yo saying that you do not know what actions lead to damnation, and what actions lead to salvation?

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

Are yo saying that you do not know what actions lead to damnation, and what actions lead to salvation?

Accepting Jesus as your saviour and asking for redemption of your sin shows a desire to be in full communion with God. He then grants you your hearts desire.

Not accepting Christ, not deisring a relationship with God, He honours your desire here as well.

Acceptance brings Heaven, rejection brings Hell.

I have no idea where our subjects heart is, how could I know since I never met him and he never told me where his heart lay?

UU

Honestly will you please leave Brian alone! It says in the Bible that it is up to God to judge where a person's destiny lies, not Brian. Brian is sticking by his beliefs, and I respect him for that. Christians aren't supposed to judge others, that is God's role. They are supposed to love everyone, that's what it says in the Bible.

I'm sorry OP for what happened. People like that have absolutely no right to come to your door like that. Actually, they are trespassing on your property! I don't have many religious fanatics calling to my door, selling their religion where I live. Although, I do remember once that Jehovah Witnesses called to the door. They are so cheeky! They said to my mother that they are "conducting a neighbourhood survey". My mother said if it's got anything to do with religion, she's not filling it in. They said no. Then she looks at it and the first question was "Do you believe in the existance of God?". Fustrated, my mother threw the survey in their face and told them to leave so they left. Obviously, lying is permitted in JW as they're quite well known for it!

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

Accepting Jesus as your saviour and asking for redemption of your sin shows a desire to be in full communion with God. He then grants you your hearts desire.

Not accepting Christ, not deisring a relationship with God, He honours your desire here as well.

Acceptance brings Heaven, rejection brings Hell.

I have no idea where our subjects heart is, how could I know since I never met him and he never told me where his heart lay?

Quoth his own child:

FullOf..IT wrote:

he didnt practice christianity

In other words, he did not accept Jesus as his saviour, he did not ask redemption for his sins, he did not desire to be in communion with God.

Given this, do you believe that FullOf..IT's father is in Hell?

lostexpectation

FullOf..IT wrote:

Hi,

I came home from work today to find my little sister a little upset.

About half an hour before i came home a couple of fanatics knocked at my house and proceded to ask my sisters certain questions about the commitment of her faith and how she applied it (does she go to mass etc). She told them that she didnt and they asked her had her father died and did he go to mass (my da died in 1992). They obviously knew that he was deceased and then they said that she would go to hell because she didnt go to mass.

This didnt really bother her but then they said that my da was in hell because he didnt go to mass ( my da was a protestant although he didnt practice). She shut the door and start crying until I found her.

Who do these people think they are saying these things.
I am not a devoted christian but i try to lead a life that does no harm to others and i try to look for the good in everyone and these are the principles i try to install in my sister.

If devoted catholics are going round using inquisition style tatics to influence people to practice a faith which I feel has been taken out of context for personal greed then i look forward to the day that it becomes obsolete.

how did they know the father was dead?

you should tell the police or the local councillor find out who the org is...

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

Quoth his own child:

In other words, he did not accept Jesus as his saviour, he did not ask redemption for his sins, he did not desire to be in communion with God.

Given this, do you believe that FullOf..IT's father is in Hell?

Sapien, what part do you not understand?

I have no idea where our subjects heart is, how could I know since I never met him and he never told me where his heart lay?


Thanks for the support UU. Oh yeah I meant to tell you I went to see Joseph a few weeks ago. What a show.

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

Sapien, what part do you not understand?

I have no idea where our subjects heart is, how could I know since I never met him and he never told me where his heart lay?

He told his child, and his child is telling you. He was not a christian. Is that not sufficiently clear? Is that not sufficient information upon which to determine whether or not he was saved?

Mrs. MacGyver

Sapien, it is not up to mere mortals like us to pass judgement on who is to be saved by God.

'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' etc...

also persons who have led good lives and are not of the Christian persuasion so to speak may also be saved.

Sapien

Mrs. MacGyver wrote:

Sapien, it is not up to mere mortals like us to pass judgement on who is to be saved by God.

'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' etc...

In order to be saved ourselves we must know what actions lead to salvation and what actions lead to damnation. As such, knowing the actions of another person, we can know whether or not they will be saved.

Of course we cannot know everything about another person, but in some cases it is clear. When a person openly rejects Christ, for instance.

McGinty

Whats drives me crazy is that people who drink out of golden chalices and wear fancy sunday clothes have probably condemned me and my pagan family to hell.

I was saddened to hear of your experience, to be honest there are some people who pretend religion/spirituality, in actual fact quite a large number of nasty people because the church is an ideal place to hide their true sins, however I will also say, please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. what I mean is don't label all church goers, or believers as your experience, or fundamentalists as I class them, God will not condemn you for not going to mass, in the bible it states God is love, and love is the opposite of fear, therefore God cannot use fearful tactics to do His bidding, God calls us all each in very individual ways and which is often a huge mystery, I don't know what is hell, or does it exist, and yet I class myself as a Christian, as I read and learn about God, I find I know less and less, that He/She becomes a greater mystery, however one thing I have learned is that those people who assume they know the answers are very much mistaken, the fact is that not one of us here on the forum or elsewhere can pertain to know God because we cannot, we get ideas and inklings, we get handed down ideas but we know nothing, so you are in the same position as everyone, you can read all the books, the bible whatever, but still you will know nothing, and those who have experienced God, say nothing because words cannot convey the mystery of God, so don;t fear and don't worry, but please don't condemn us that believe but who are not arroganct like the arse wipes who called to your family door,

Sapien

Mrs. MacGyver wrote:

also persons who have led good lives and are not of the Christian persuasion so to speak may also be saved.

I know that some Christians believe that, but a great many do not. I am trying, very patiently, to determine whether BrianCalgary does.

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

He told his child, and his child is telling you. He was not a christian. Is that not sufficiently clear? Is that not sufficient information upon which to determine whether or not he was saved?

No it's not sufficient information. The person in question would have to give the revelation himself. I'm not going to go by the testimony of the kids.

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

No it's not sufficient information. The person in question would have to give the revelation himself. I'm not going to go by the testimony of the kids.

Why would he lie to his children? Do you suspect that FullOf..IT is lying?

Then suppose a hypothetical situation. Suppose that FullOf..IT is correct and truthful in saying that his father was not a christian. In this case, would FullOf..IT's father be in Hell?

Mrs. MacGyver

Is it the born again christian concept you are talking about?

Sapien

Mrs. MacGyver wrote:

Is it the born again christian concept you are talking about?

As far as I know, that is the belief held uniformly among born-again Christians, yes. Though it is not confined to born-again Christians.

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

In order to be saved ourselves we must know what actions lead to salvation and what actions lead to damnation. As such, knowing the actions of another person, we can know whether or not they will be saved.

Of course we cannot know everything about another person, but in some cases it is clear. When a person openly rejects Christ, for instance.

And I don't know whether or not this person rejected Christ or not.

Sapien wrote:

Why would he lie to his children? Do you suspect that FullOf..IT is lying?.

No I don't think he is lying at all. But since I don't get to ask hi sdad the question as to where his heart is, I am not th eone to pass judgement nor will I.

Sapien wrote:

Then suppose a hypothetical situation. Suppose that FullOf..IT is correct and truthful in saying that his father was not a christian. In this case, would FullOf..IT's father be in Hell? .

From a previuos post:

Accepting Jesus as your saviour and asking for redemption of your sin shows a desire to be in full communion with God. He then grants you your hearts desire.

Not accepting Christ, not deisring a relationship with God, He honours your desire here as well.

Acceptance brings Heaven, rejection brings Hell.

Based on the above, where is your hypothetical person?

Mrs. MacGyver

Do you define hell as a seperation from God?

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

And I don't know whether or not this person rejected Christ or not.



No I don't think he is lying at all. But since I don't get to ask hi sdad the question as to where his heart is, I am not th eone to pass judgement nor will I.



From a previuos post:

Accepting Jesus as your saviour and asking for redemption of your sin shows a desire to be in full communion with God. He then grants you your hearts desire.

Not accepting Christ, not deisring a relationship with God, He honours your desire here as well.

Acceptance brings Heaven, rejection brings Hell.

Based on the above, where is your hypothetical person?

I am asking you to answer that question. Have the courage of your convictions.

Mrs. MacGyver

he could have accepted Christ before his death...its not for us to say what his personal arrangement with Christ was.

Sapien

Mrs. MacGyver wrote:

he could have accepted Christ before his death...its not for us to say what his personal arrangement with Christ was.

That is possible. I would suggest that Heaven is remarkably easy to get into if all one needs to do to gain entry is accept Christ on one's deathbed. While I can respect people of faith, I could not respect such a person, and find it strange that they should be granted entrance to Paradise.

Nevertheless, FullOf..IT believes that his father died non-christian. I am asking BrianCalgary, who was eager to condemn fellow christians for telling FullOf..IT's sister that her father is in Hell, the following question: if FullOf..IT is correct, does that mean the christians he condemns spoke the truth?

robindch

> I would suggest that Heaven is remarkably easy to get into if all one needs
> to do to gain entry is accept Christ on one's deathbed.

...for whatever "accept Christ" might mean. I've pointed it out before, but it's an intruiging evolutionary adaption of modern christianity that you no longer have to do the biologically-expensive good works that catholicism (kind-of) asks you to do, but instead all you've to do is to believe something. I can't imagine how this belief will evolve in times to come, since the biological cost of believing something is zero and there simply isn't any more cost-free belief than that.

lostexpectation

can ye's not leave brian out of this thread

GAAman

lostexpectation wrote:

can ye's not leave brian out of this thread

Yeah because after all he is not the messiah, he is a very naughty boy

Op sorry for you and your sister it sucks that they can get away with sayin that kind of crap,pay no heed

athena 2000

Originally Posted by Mrs. MacGyver
he could have accepted Christ before his death...its not for us to say what his personal arrangement with Christ was.

Originally Posted by Sapien
That is possible. I would suggest that Heaven is remarkably easy to get into if all one needs to do to gain entry is accept Christ on one's deathbed. While I can respect people of faith, I could not respect such a person, and find it strange that they should be granted entrance to Paradise.

What would you think about a last minute salvation based on true conviction of sins and faith in Christ? No time for baptism, good works, walking out the Christian life. Death in a few hours. No time to prove to anyone that your change of mind and heart is genuine. Yeah, it still annoys people to no end. The thief who was crucified next to Jesus entered paradise that same day.

I find it astounding that God's love is so great that he'd be willing to redeem any of us, even at our very last breath. Perhaps the thief's redemption was custom made because of the timing and the place. Even so, he was redeemed.

Jesus stated:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." - John 6:37 (NASB)

I'm sure God is not fooled or manipulated by anyone.

Luke 23:39-43
Hebrews 4:12

athena 2000

FullOf..IT wrote:

Hi,
I came home from work today to find my little sister a little upset.

About half an hour before i came home a couple of fanatics knocked at my house and proceded to ask my sisters certain questions about the commitment of her faith and how she applied it (does she go to mass etc). ...

I'm so sorry this happened. It is completely unacceptable and has nothing to do with reaching out to a community with care or even love.

Try not to take offense at their ignorance and insensitivity. If you could talk to the parish priest about it, it might be a good thing to clear things up, and let him be aware of what these two said.

Sapien

lostexpectation wrote:

can ye's not leave brian out of this thread

Sapien wrote:

Nevertheless, FullOf..IT believes that his father died non-christian. I am asking BrianCalgary, who was eager to condemn fellow christians for telling FullOf..IT's sister that her father is in Hell, the following question: if FullOf..IT is correct, does that mean the christians he condemns spoke the truth?

My interest in what BrianCalgary believes is not arbitrary. It is worrying to me that a moderator of this forum cannot render a simple answer to a simple question about his faith.

athena 2000 wrote:

What would you think about a last minute salvation based on true conviction of sins and faith in Christ? No time for baptism, good works, walking out the Christian life...

I think it's terribly convenient for the about-to-be deceased, and robs religion of the only virtue that it could be claimed it has - the modification of the behaviour of its adherents to the betterment of society.

5uspect

FullOf..IT, I think that behaviour is shocking. If someone called to your door and said that your father was a criminal or worse you probably could press charges or even sue. Yet we have these fools going around making derogatory statements about people with no evidence to support their claims apparently above the law.

robindch wrote:

... it's an intruiging evolutionary adaption of modern christianity that you no longer have to do the biologically-expensive good works that catholicism (kind-of) asks you to do, but instead all you've to do is to believe something. I can't imagine how this belief will evolve in times to come, since the biological cost of believing something is zero and there simply isn't any more cost-free belief than that.

I think a form of Zahavi's handicap principle may be applied here Robin. It's not the most universal of evolutionary ideas but has some bearing in sexual selection. Handicaps are biologically expensive so any one who can survive with such a handicap must otherwise be quite strong. Of course this leads to the development of false handicaps to cheat the system.

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

My interest in what BrianCalgary believes is not arbitrary. It is worrying to me that a moderator of this forum cannot render a simple answer to a simple question about his faith. .

I have answered the question a number of times. I am not in a position to judge someone that I have never met. Nor do I think that me passing such a judgement would satisfy this thread, as the thread is about some horrendous actions by members of a particular church, that as a Christian I apologize to the family.

If you have a specific question for me please start a new thread or PM me.

Sapien wrote:

I think it's terribly convenient for the about-to-be deceased, and robs religion of the only virtue that it could be claimed it has - the modification of the behaviour of its adherents to the betterment of society.

Include this question on your new thread as well.

pbsuxok1znja4r

Sapien wrote:

He told his child, and his child is telling you. He was not a christian. Is that not sufficiently clear? Is that not sufficient information upon which to determine whether or not he was saved?

Go back and read BC's posts. He has said he doesn't know at least three times now. You are merely attempting to get him to say something "judgemental".

It's not so simple as what 'actions' you have and haven't taken as a christian. If, as you did some potentially outwardly 'good' action, you felt in your heart you were betraying 'good' then I think you were doing exactly that. I think most of the time, where one's own soul is concerned, it really is the thought that counts. It doesn't matter how that act is outwardly percieved by humans.
(This is what I believe, anyway. I *think* BC would agree).

5uspect

scouser.tommy wrote:

I think most of the time, where one's own soul is concerned, it really is the thought that counts. It doesn't matter how that act is outwardly percieved by humans.
(This is what I believe, anyway. I *think* BC would agree).

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions :rolleyes:

Sapien

So, if I were to begin a new thread with the following question:

Suppose that FullOf..IT is correct and truthful in saying that his father was not a christian. In this case, would FullOf..IT's father be in Hell?

... would you answer it?

scouser.tommy wrote:

Go back and read BC's posts. He has said he doesn't know at least three times now. You are merely attempting to get him to say something "judgemental".

To make a judgement, yes. If he is not able to make a judgement based on clear and salient facts relating to the spiritual attitudes of another person, how can he be responsible for his own spirituality?

I'm tired of this now. I suspect BrianCalgary of hypocrisy. I believe he would make exactly the same judgement about the present circumstances of FullOF..IT's father as the door-to-door Christians did. I am pretty sure that he believes that FullOF..IT's father is in Hell. The only difference between him and the door-to-door Christians is courage and a desire to proselytise. The evasiveness to which BrianCalgary has resorted is disappointing and unconvincing. He believes that people who die as non-christians go to Hell. He has been told that FullOF..IT's father died a non-christian. But he will not say that FullOF..IT's father is in Hell. That is weak, disingenuous and dishonorable.

BrianCalgary

Sapien wrote:

So, if I were to begin a new thread with the following question:

Suppose that FullOf..IT is correct and truthful in saying that his father was not a christian. In this case, would FullOf..IT's father be in Hell?

... would you answer it?.

No because you are asking me to pass judgement on someone I don't know and on someone that I can't get to know while on this earth.

Sapien wrote:

To make a judgement, yes. If he is not able to make a judgement based on clear and salient facts relating to the spiritual attitudes of another person, how can he be responsible for his own spirituality?.

As far as I can see the facts are not clear and salient because I do not have the ability to inquire of the person in question the state of his heart. Until I can do see the only fact is that only God knows the state of the gentlemans heart.

Sapien wrote:

I'm tired of this now. I suspect BrianCalgary of hypocrisy.

i would be a hypocrite by denouncing the actions of the door-to-door people (which I have) and then resorting to the same actions, and that is passing judgement on someone I don't know.

Sapien wrote:

I believe he would make exactly the same judgement about the present circumstances of FullOF..IT's father as the door-to-door Christians did. I am pretty sure that he believes that FullOF..IT's father is in Hell..

Now you are judging me at this point. I have stated again and again that I don't know where fullof..its father is. So for you to make such an accusation that you believe that I would draw the same conclusion as the door-to-door folks is completely erroneous.

Sapien wrote:

The only difference between him and the door-to-door Christians is courage and a desire to proselytise. .

There is a time and a place for proeselytizing. Uninvited at someones front door is not the place.

Sapien wrote:

The evasiveness to which BrianCalgary has resorted is disappointing and unconvincing. .

My answer remains the same. I never met the man so I don't know where he is.

Sapien wrote:

He believes that people who die as non-christians go to Hell. .

This is correct.

Sapien wrote:

He has been told that FullOF..IT's father died a non-christian. But he will not say that FullOF..IT's father is in Hell. That is weak, disingenuous and dishonorable.

This is something we don't know for certain now do we? I never did get the chance to question the man.

athena 2000

Originally Posted by athena 2000
What would you think about a last minute salvation based on true conviction of sins and faith in Christ? No time for baptism, good works, walking out the Christian life...

Sapien wrote:

I think it's terribly convenient for the about-to-be deceased, and robs religion of the only virtue that it could be claimed it has - the modification of the behaviour of its adherents to the betterment of society.

I've thought the same thing of last-minute conversions myself, but I guess I was asking you what you'd think of an actual true conversion at the last minute. Can you allow for that possibility in your thinking? I'm not talking about someone whose intent is 'I've got to get into heaven by the skin of my teeth so I'll do this and at least get in the gate.' But like I said, I doubt God is fooled. Presumably he doesn't need my opinion on who deserves his mercy.

I have a feeling heaven will have a surprising variety of unexpected people!

robindch

> B]5uspect[/B I think a form of Zahavi's handicap principle may be applied here [...] in sexual selection. Handicaps are
> biologically expensive so any one who can survive with such a handicap must otherwise be quite strong. Of course this
> leads to the development of false handicaps to cheat the system.

I'm not referring to biological or sexual selection, but memetic selection -- the christianity-meme has (considerably, I think) enhanced its own reproductive fitness by making it no longer necessary for people infected with it to have to do anything at all. All you've to do is to believe something uncritically, which is pretty easy to start with, and, er, that's it.

Well, that's not quite true. Most of the modern variants of the christianity-meme contain a strong "propagate me" rule which kicks in and does incur a biological cost. Though that's obviously of little use if you're a death-bed convert

5uspect

robindch wrote:

> B]5uspect[/B I think a form of Zahavi's handicap principle may be applied here [...] in sexual selection. Handicaps are
> biologically expensive so any one who can survive with such a handicap must otherwise be quite strong. Of course this
> leads to the development of false handicaps to cheat the system.

I'm not referring to biological or sexual selection, but memetic selection -- the christianity-meme has (considerably, I think) enhanced its own reproductive fitness by making it no longer necessary for people infected with it to have to do anything at all. All you've to do is to believe something uncritically, which is pretty easy to start with, and, er, that's it.

Well, that's not quite true. Most of the modern variants of the christianity-meme contain a strong "propagate me" rule which kicks in and does incur a biological cost. Though that's obviously of little use if you're a death-bed convert

I agree, but what I was trying to say was that the Zahavi's handicap principle may be useful in explaining many fundalmentalist religous traits. Spending huge sums on megachurches, self abuse etc show that people can do potentially damaging things to your normal life but can show the extent of your faith more.
It is if their religous practices are a handicap because they devote so much time and effort into it and yet still lave normal lives. It gives the meme greater copying fidelity since the practice is easier to copy. I think the growth of fundalmentalism shows this somewhat.

Sapien

FullOF**IT wrote:

they said that my da was in hell because he didnt go to mass

BrianCalgary wrote:

People like that I think are going to have to answer for their actions.

FullOf..IT wrote:

Sapien wrote:

Apparently he was a non-practicing Protestant. So, presumably, he was baptised at birth but had no religious involvement or interest in adulthood. Correct me if I'm wrong, FullOf..IT.

You have it about right... he didnt practice christianity.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Sapien wrote:

[BrianCalgary] believes that people who die as non-christians go to Hell.

This is correct.

You condemn people for saying something which you believe to be true. They have the courage of their convictions, you do not. If you cannot stomach the conclusions that your faith asks you to come to, and cannot bring yourself to declare them openly, you should reconsider your position. Your religion teaches you that countless people die and go to Hell everyday. If you cannot acknowledge one specific instance of this happening, you have not accepted the consequences of your faith. In other words, you do not have real faith.

Dades

Sapien wrote:

You condemn people for saying something which you believe to be true.

Perhaps there is a time and place for saying what you believe to be true.

Sapien

The Atheist wrote:

Perhaps there is a time and place for saying what you believe to be true.

Agreed. I would think that a forum devoted to discussion of those beliefs is a good place, and when one is asked about ones beliefs is a good time.

Excelsior

Sapien wrote:

Why not? You are in possession of the salient facts. Have the courage of your convictions.

I guess this passes for reasonable discourse in your corner of the world Sapien but I suspect if the interaction between you and BrianCalgary took place in person over a pint you sould show a considerably larger degree of respect. I guess this applies to you well.

He is displaying the courage of his Christian conviction when he refuses to speculate on the eternal destination of any individual save himself. Christ's foundational teaching with regards expressing Christian love towards others is to consider all moral questions through the spectrum of the plank and the toothpick. BC cannot assess another man's destination because that is the work of God alone, and as a Christian who seeks to honour God, he would resist the temptation to de-God by passing judgement.

All he needs to know is that with the many planks in his eyes compared to yours, it is by Grace that he is saved.

The original poster is righeously upset by the actions of these fundamentalists. Cheap attempts to score points off the moderator in this context sadly paints you in a similar light as the doorbell ringers.