McDowell's U-Turn

TrueDub

Looks like someone's finally talked some sense into our Minister for Justice. Morning Ireland this morning had a reasonable feature on McDowell's decision to regulate casino clubs in Ireland, rather than banning them.

In the interview with him he made clear that it was "his colleagues in government" that had changed his mind, and that he now felt that regulation was a preferable approach, but that "Ireland would not become a Las Vegas-style gambling mecca".

The feature included some reportage from the Fitz, with a couple of regulars being interviewed (Chris was one, didn't recognise the other).

All in all, good news for those of us who enjoy playing poker in the Fitz and other well-run card clubs. As always, though, the devil will be in the detail, so when the proposed regulations are published in the Autumn I'll look forward to seeing what wrinkle he comes up with this time.

bman

Will regulation mean higher registration fees at clubs due to taxes?

5starpool

yay!!!

nicryan

I can identify irene, chris and another woman who was in on that day who's not in very regularly called Cara...

Nic

mewso

It's good news but I just can't get the sound of rustling brown bags/envelopes out of my mind.

smurph

Irish Independent Breaking News, god its great to see him eating humble pie.:p

Fine Gael claims Justice Minister Michael McDowell has been forced into a "humiliating u-turn" on casinos
Mr McDowell had previously said he wanted to close down such clubs, but he has now confirmed that he has instead decided to regulate the industry.

The minister says he will bring proposals to the Dail later this year for the establishment of a regulatory body.

Fine Gael TD Jim O'Keefe said today that Mr McDowell had been humiliatingly rebuffed by his cabinet colleagues and was now adopting the approach advocated by Fine Gael.

Mr O'Keefe said his party saw no difference between properly regulated casino clubs and betting on the dogs or the horses.

gerire

It kind of does make sense that all those TD's with their tax free horses / race earnings can actually see through the fog, if it had have gone through as he was planning there would have been some court case in relation to other gambling form, ie if we, the casinos, are going down we are taking you with us.

A regulated system will suit us all players and the government id reckon, wonder where it will leave the "gambling in Pubs" issue though for all the pub/hotel games?

muso wrote:

I just can't get the sound of rustling brown bags/envelopes out of my mind

Just as well all that "lobbying to bertie" etc from MR Sporting Emporium PAID off

karlh

tbh.

BigDragon

TrueDub wrote:

Looks like someone's finally talked some sense into our Minister for Justice. Morning Ireland this morning had a reasonable feature on McDowell's decision to regulate casino clubs in Ireland, rather than banning them.

Listen at http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0720/casino.html (Realplayer link at bottom)

NickyOD

BigDragon wrote:

(Realplayer link at bottom)

Yeah great. Give everyone's computer cancer why don't you.

Roddy23

or ye could just read it here on the link

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/07/20/story268598.html

BigDragon

NickyOD wrote:

Yeah great. Give everyone's computer cancer why don't you.

Eh?

NickyOD

BigDragon wrote:

Eh?

just kidding. Fookin' hate RP.

Sinfonia

I heard McDowell wanted to shut down the casinos after he was on the receiving end of a bad beat, but two nights ago he outdrew Mary Harney's quad queens to catch four aces on the river - he immediately made a u-turn on the casino issue

Seriously though, great news, I mean was he going to shut down casinos and allow horse racing and the National Lottery to carry on?????

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

could this news be one of the advantages of having the sporting emporium run by who it is, perhaps??!!

lostexpectation

so will this be industry regulation ie self regulation, or stricter government regulation?

kleefarr

bman wrote:

Will regulation mean higher registration fees at clubs due to taxes?

Quite likely, but I think it would be very unfair of them to pass it on to the customer. They make enough money.

gerire wrote:

A regulated system will suit us all players and the government id reckon, wonder where it will leave the "gambling in Pubs" issue though for all the pub/hotel games?

If they go the UK way, which is supposedly the most respected and best run Gaming Commission (Gaming Board) in the world, those kind of activities will be unlawful.

Great news though. Definitely a step in the right direction for all concerned. Lets hope that the regulatory body don't make it any tougher than it should be to look after.

tricky D

kleefarr wrote:

Quite likely, but I think it would be very unfair of them to pass it on to the customer.

So how then, would any extra costs be covered. Grow a money tree??

kleefarr wrote:

They make enough money.

That's an assumption.

What will likely happen is that the industry will be investigated by an external, probably UK consultant who will recommend regulations and taxation methods sometime in the winter. The industry generally welcomes this change toward legitimacy and accepts that the tax aspect is inevitable.

/job safe, phew. Thanks to all those who lobbied.

kleefarr

tricky D wrote:

So how then, would any extra costs be covered. Grow a money tree??

That's an assumption.

I know that the games rules in Ireland compared to the UK afford Irish casinos more of a profit margin, so it's not an assumption.
If those game rules and regs don't change then in my opinion it would be unfair to pass on the cost to the customer.
Also, why are people charged membership fees. In UK they don't and the profit margin is lower. Greed I think.

tricky D wrote:

What will likely happen is that the industry will be investigated by an external, probably UK consultant who will recommend regulations and taxation methods sometime in the winter. The industry generally welcomes this change toward legitimacy and accepts that the tax aspect is inevitable.

/job safe, phew. Thanks to all those who lobbied.

That will definitely happen. There isn't the expertise within Ireland to do it without consulting another country that already has the necessary Laws, rules and regulations in place.

MadsL

the industry will be investigated by an external, probably UK consultant who will recommend regulations

Casino employees should then lobby hard to avoid the stupid 'no-tipping' UK rule - supposedly to avoid collusion (yeah, right :rolleyes: ) Even the IOM Hilton has this rule in place (Gala casinos) - it avoids collusion alright, in fact it pretty much reduces the need to casino staff to have any kind of interaction with the punters.

Also taking of Gala, there should be some interest from them in opening operations here once the legislation goes through (be afraid, be very afraid ) representations should be made instead to a certain Mr Wynn of Nevada....

Also, why are people charged membership fees. In UK they don't and the profit margin is lower. Greed I think

Only our friend Dermo does this, it's to pay for the leather seats I think. But to be fair, try asking for your 'lucky chips' on joining Gala.

tricky D

kleefarr wrote:

I know that the games rules in Ireland compared to the UK afford Irish casinos more of a profit margin, so it's not an assumption.
If those game rules and regs don't change then in my opinion it would be unfair to pass on the cost to the customer.
Also, why are people charged membership fees. In UK they don't and the profit margin is lower. Greed I think.

Well, 2 casinos have shut down in recent times. Another op 'ran out of money'. I don't know of any casino in Ireland charging membership fees, unless you count free intro bets as a negative membership fee. It's also basic business that costs get passed on to customers and some profit is made. Sure it would be poor show if charges rose when costs/taxes didn't. Casinos are not very different to other businesses and are perfectly entitled to make a profit. However there is the assumption is that casinos (the Irish model) are a licence to print money which is simply not true as the margins are tight.

Scotty #

The sky news Ireland vote this evening is "should casinos be banned?"

48%=yes
52%=no

kleefarr

MadsL wrote:

Casino employees should then lobby hard to avoid the stupid 'no-tipping' UK rule - supposedly to avoid collusion (yeah, right :rolleyes: ) Even the IOM Hilton has this rule in place (Gala casinos) - it avoids collusion alright, in fact it pretty much reduces the need to casino staff to have any kind of interaction with the punters.

There will always be pros and cons about whether to allow tipping or not in UK. It was under discussion a while ago whether to allow it again or not, but the safety margin for the company (ie not getting ripped off) will always have the upper hand.
I would rather see genuine customer interaction rather than a pushy false approach that will hopefully get a tip. Of course, if no tip is forth coming then there will always be the evil eye. Not good customer care in my opinion.
Still a very debatable subject.

MadsL wrote:

Also taking of Gala, there should be some interest from them in opening operations here once the legislation goes through (be afraid, be very afraid ) representations should be made instead to a certain Mr Wynn of Nevada....



Only our friend Dermo does this, it's to pay for the leather seats I think. But to be fair, try asking for your 'lucky chips' on joining Gala.

Gala? I thought they were in to bingo?

accensi0n

Scotty # wrote:

The sky news Ireland vote this evening is "should casinos be banned?"

48%=yes
52%=no

For those of you who voted yes on the "should casinos be banned" poll, have you ever been to a casino?

95%=no
5%=yes



I assume anyway.

kleefarr

tricky D wrote:

Well, 2 casinos have shut down in recent times. Another op 'ran out of money'. I don't know of any casino in Ireland charging membership fees, unless you count free intro bets as a negative membership fee. It's also basic business that costs get passed on to customers and some profit is made. Sure it would be poor show if charges rose when costs/taxes didn't. Casinos are not very different to other businesses and are perfectly entitled to make a profit. However there is the assumption is that casinos (the Irish model) are a licence to print money which is simply not true as the margins are tight.

Ran out of money because of bad business practice and poor accounting probably.

I know what the margins are. They're not as tight as in UK. Enough said.

kleefarr

accensi0n wrote:

For those of you who voted yes on the "should casinos be banned" poll, have you ever been to a casino?

95%=no
5%=yes



I assume anyway.

Good point. Those that don't want them, don't have to visit them. Simple.

Spiritus

Scotty # wrote:

The sky news Ireland vote this evening is "should casinos be banned?"

48%=yes
52%=no

It's a classic hold'em situation.

I thought it was a pity that very probably no one on Sky news realised how apt the poll result was.

Dub13

I would not worry about a Sky News Ireland Poll,the ratings they are getting maybe 17 or 18 people were watching.

Goodluck2me

of those of you who voted yes, how many of you have recieved a bad beat in the last few days?
Yes: 90%
No: 10%

DeVore

Wow... didnt see that one coming. <sarcasometer explodes>

Now they'll do what they did with pirate radio (coincidentally just after DD bought a big chunk of one) which is to create a very small number of ridiculously expensive licenses. This makes sure there is no competition oh and if you live outside the big cities, wave bye bye to your poker tournies.

DeV.

Lafortezza

So does this mean that the casinos will carry on as normal with the table games?

DeVore

Until its regulated, pretty much yes. Noone is going to establish case law in an area where the law has been declared to change by the minister himself.

I still hope the nannyish little hitler gets turfed out next election.

DeV.

5starpool

..... is probably what the headline of this article from the Indo today should read.

wrote:

Cabinet agreement after McDowell backs off from club-ban position following meeting with Taoiseach


JUSTICE Minister Michael McDowell backed away from an all-or-nothing pitch to ban casinos when the odds became stacked up against his proposal getting through Cabinet.

Instead of seeking a showdown, Mr McDowell had a private meeting with the Taoiseach after which it was agreed that a memo be brought to the Government.

And on Wednesday the Cabinet agreed that regulating and licensing gambling clubs was a better bet than outright prohibition.

Yesterday the minister emphasised that there were no plans to legalise Las Vegas casino scale operations. He said local authorities would have a say in whether or not gambling clubs would be permitted in their areas.

And in a conspicuous act of solidarity, the Tanaiste said that prohibiting gambling in clubs was "not realistic in this day and age".

However, the Opposition accused Mr McDowell of backing down following pressure from Cabinet colleagues.

Fine Gael justice spokesman Jim O'Keeffe said Mr McDowell had been forced to make a humiliating u-turn and said Fine Gael had no problem with properly regulated and policed casino clubs.

Last November, Mr McDowell looked closely at closing gambling clubs after the Garda Commissioner ordered detectives to monitor how the clubs operated.

The number of clubs had risen from five to 15 over the previous two years and they are now in every city and many provincial towns.

The Garda had become uneasy about their legality after it emerged in evidence that a 19-year-old accused in the Annabel's case had gone to a Dublin casino after the killing and stayed until 7am.

Privately, Mr McDowell expressed grave worries about the clubs and the possibility that they could be used as a front for laundering the proceeds of crime.

And the plan to crack down on casinos came just a couple of weeks after multi-millionaire Dermot Desmond opened his €6.5m state-of-the-art gambling club in Dublin city centre. Desmond was furious and believed the move against gambling clubs was a personal attack on his investment.

But when a conference of gardai and law officers from the Department of Justice examined the legislation they decided that to bring a successful prosecution of gambling clubs would be extremely difficult.

"Proving a game of roulette was illegal would require detailed examinations of the rules of roulette and then getting statements from all the players to see if they understood the rules," said a source.

Mr McDowell was also aware that his view of gambling was not shared by everyone in government when he met the Taoiseach, although they agreed the 1956 Gaming and Lotteries Act needed amending.

When he brought his memo to government some weeks ago, Mr McDowell was even more sensitive to the charge that he could be holier-than-thou in his approach.

In Cabinet the growth of on-line gambling was acknowledged and that a lot of people liked to play poker and if it was banned, it would go underground with hiring hotel rooms being hired to play in.

On Wednesday, The Cabinet decided it should legislate for a limited form of gambling establishments regulated by a Commission.

And anyone seeking a licence should go through a similar process as those seeking a betting shop licence where applicants must apply to the court, register with the Garda and satisfy them they are suitable persons after getting a certificate from the court.

Successful applicants for a betting licence also have to prove themselves tax complaint and then pay 3pc tax on turnover. A privately owned gambling club where cash is the currency, is only taxed on its profits.

jtsuited

I really don't think this is going to be end of this. As Dev said about the pirate radio stations, the regulation is most likely going to be a way of Dermot Desmond laughing all the way to the bank about this one.

If anyone has experienced first hand what the BCI (broadcasting regulators) are like, you will have some idea of what the casino regulators are going to do.
This could be bad for poker players, very bad indeed!

NickyOD

I would be a little concerned if I was working as a dealer/croupier right now. Regulation could mean the end end of tips. In England this isn't as bad because you get paid quite well, but in ireland the wage is terrible so tips are a big part of the salary. It could also mean that everyone currently working as a dealer/croupier/TD will need to apply for a licence to be able to work in an irish casino. This is why many eastern europeans who are trained croupiers from countries that don't have gaming authoritites come to Ireland because they don't have the a license to work in the UK. Should a licence be required would those non-nationals currently working in Irish cardrooms be able to apply for one?

ArmaniJeanss

NickyOD wrote:

I Should a licence be required would those non-nationals currently working in Irish cardrooms be able to apply for one?

I'd be almost sure that EU nationals would have to be entitled to apply. NonEU nationals, possibly not.

The wages/tipping thing - personally I think it would be good if tips were banned and casinos then had to pay a decent wage to attract staff.
When tips are used to supplement meagre earnings then the whole industry is very close to the 'black economy'.

Waylander

Why do you think the tipping would be effected Nicky? I am not having a go, I just dont understand why you think this would be a problem.

RoundTower

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

I'd be almost sure that EU nationals would have to be entitled to apply. NonEU nationals, possibly not.

The wages/tipping thing - personally I think it would be good if tips were banned and casinos then had to pay a decent wage to attract staff.
When tips are used to supplement meagre earnings then the whole industry is very close to the 'black economy'.

The rake would go up and the dealers would end up getting paid the same but provide less service.

ArmaniJeanss

RoundTower wrote:

The rake would go up and the dealers would end up getting paid the same but provide less service.

I 100% agree with you, but still see it as a positive thing. The rake would go up to the proper market level, not subsidised by 'black market' tipping of minimum wage staff. My ex-gf's email address ends in '@revenue.ie', so I've had my ear bent over this sort of thing a lot.

RoundTower

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

I 100% agree with you, but still see it as a positive thing. The rake would go up to the proper market level, not subsidised by 'black market' tipping of minimum wage staff. My ex-gf's email address ends in '@revenue.ie', so I've had my ear bent over this sort of thing a lot.

I don't understand - there's nothing black market about dealers relying on tips for part of their income. No more than a car salesman relying on commission. And of course while I can't speak for other cardrooms, staff at the Fitz are encouraged to report all their income to the Revenue Commissioners.