Why is American racism ok?

I think its part of the history of Europe during the period of the Cold War and afterwards. Here in ireland at least during the long period of the low economy, relations living in America would visit ireland, splash their money and leave again. In that environment there would be bound to be some anger/resentment over the Americans being richer, or having better lives (for the most part they did, at least when they went on holidays over here).

Added to this the obvious pride that Americans seem to have in their country, and the way that americans in the past couldn't help themselves when they talked about freedom and how they saved the world from first Germany and later the communist hordes.

I think most of the generalisations, and derogratory comments come from the past. Sure, they're continued to this day, but they were created in the time of our parents, and we've kept them going because America still likes to lord over the rest of the world over how their country is better than ours.

/Shrugs. Personally I feel they, in part, brought it upon themselves. The other part was the envy that people in Europe felt during the 50's right through to the late 80's.

tj-music.com

dbnavan wrote:

Just thinking.....

If I came on here and slagged off, jews, Africans, Asians, or even most europeans, I would run the risk of being banned for being Racist, but if I came here and made a statement about americans being Loud, abnoxious, fat, whatever......it would be acceptable, or at least debated. So the question I pose is why are we given free reign as a nation(not only online members), to be so racist towards, the country that gives us so much, jobs....tourism.....entertainment.....list is endless.

You´re absolutely right BUT the list is not endless

metrovelvet

Deleted User wrote:

. Here in ireland at least during the long period of the low economy, relations living in America would visit ireland, splash their money and leave again. In that environment there would be bound to be some anger/resentment over the Americans being richer, or having better lives (for the most part they did, at least when they went on holidays over here). .

I would agree with this. It preceeds the war in Iraq and at least in Ireland harks back to the relationship [imo is a bad one] with its diaspora. Given that begrudgery is a noticable and not uncommon trait in the Irish cultural conciousness it makes sense that they would lash out at their wealthier, healthier and more successful cousins who took a chance for a better life. But of course no thought is given to what its like to move to a foreign country, leave your family behind, start out at the bottom of the barell with no support systems intact, and only to be treated with hostility and resentment when you "go home."

Deleted User wrote:

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Added to this the obvious pride that Americans seem to have in their country, and the way that americans in the past couldn't help themselves when they talked about freedom and how they saved the world from first Germany and later the communist hordes. .

This is definitely a culture clash. America is not a blame and shame culture - more of a if you got it flaunt it one and this rubs the Irish up the wrong way, who like to keep each other in their place with slagging and minor put downs. They hate seeing anyone too proud and well, Americans are proud for the most part.

Deleted User wrote:

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/Shrugs. Personally I feel they, in part, brought it upon themselves. The other part was the envy that people in Europe felt during the 50's right through to the late 80's.

Yes, its jealousy. I've always thought so too.

Dirk Gently

metrovelvet wrote:

Yes, its jealousy. I've always thought so too.

I think your attitude is actually part of the problem tbh. Projecting blame onto others and claiming they are simply jealous is one of the reasons many people might not like Americans. I can definitely understand an ordinary American citizen wondering what people have against America, but it’s not so much against ordinary citizens as it is directed against your government. Look a bit closer to home and examine Americas role in world affairs and you might get a better view on why people dislike America.

Claiming people are jealous is arrogant in the extreme and doesn't exactly do much to dispel the stereotype that Americans see themselves as the pinnacle of human achievement. A bit of self analysis wouldn't go a miss rather than simply blaming other people for not understanding America.

I would also disagree to a degree with Klaz in that I think recent times have seen a bigger swing in opinion against America. No doubt many countries around the world would have a historical dislike for America, notably those countries affected by American interference, South America most notably, with the U.S. installing dictatorships and supporting coups left right and centre going back many years. But in Western Europe and Ireland in particular I have noticed that it is only recently that there has been a big shift in attitudes away from America. Many people I know, only a few years ago would have viewed America as a force for good in the world but those people are becoming fewer in number with each year that passes. The increasingly hollow and hypocritical message coming from the U.S. administration paints all Americans (unfairly imo) in a bad light. There is definitely a dramatic upsurge in disapproval for America since even in the short period of time since the Clinton administration when America was for the most part looked upon as a friend by people in Ireland.

Instead of blaming a "jealous" world community perhaps if Americans want to understand why they are viewed in a negative light they should examine the role American governments (the people you vote into power) play in world. All too often American foreign policy is negative and a barrier to positive change that many in the rest of the world want to achieve. (The environment, weapons proliferation and trade being just a few areas where the U.S. dictates and blocks positive change)

I don’t think people on a whole are "jealous" of America, quite the opposite in fact, and I think people don’t like the Americanisation of the world as they see it as counter productive. Blaming peoples dislike of America on jealousy is only reinforcing the stereotype that Americans see themselves as above everyone else and view themselves as something other countries should aspire to. Most countries would not look at the American model and wish to copy it.

I really think American foreign policy is at the root of the problem and some people tar ordinary American civilians with the same brush as their government. The mood has definitely changed for a lot of Irish people from a bit of friendly mocking with no malice involved to open hostility more and more lately.

clown bag

clown bag wrote:

I think your attitude is actually part of the problem tbh. Projecting blame onto others and claiming they are simply jealous is one of the reasons many people might not like Americans. I can definitely understand an ordinary American citizen wondering what people have against America, but it’s not so much against ordinary citizens as it is directed against your government. Look a bit closer to home and examine Americas role in world affairs and you might get a better view on why people dislike America.

I think thats part of it, but the opinions people have had about America go back to my childhood, before America started loosing its golden sheen. Even when I was a kid (admittedly i'm only 30) those jokes or snide remarks were old and well used.

America's foreign policy does have an impact nowadays, but I think as I mentioned before its more of a personal thing. We're submerged in American culture from the get go, evrything american is apparently wonderful (even though we know its not), and America is the last bastion of freedom (if it ever was at all).

Know what I mean? Its due to the air that many americans give off. That air of superiority and arrogance. At least thats what annoyed me going back years, before i started to really get annoyed by their foreign policy.

Sure, guantanamo bay, Iraq, Patriot Act, etc all have their influence, but they're recent events. What irish people, and many other people i know from abroad, seem to have something thats much older than that.

Dirk Gently

Deleted User wrote:

I think thats part of it, but the opinions people have had about America go back to my childhood, before America started loosing its golden sheen. Even when I was a kid (admittedly i'm only 30) those jokes or snide remarks were old and well used.

I’m not disagreeing with you but the intensity has been turned up a fair bit in recent times. There was always a few jokes and generalisations made of Americans, usually as a response to generalisations made by Americans about us paddys but as I remember it was always light hearted and there was a fondness for our American friends despite their sometimes inaccurate views and possibly because of their sometimes inaccurate views which we might of found amusing put not threatening or resentful of (on the most part).

I think the mood has changed now though and what was in the past friendly banter but ultimately not malice has now taken a more hardened and unflattering role. At the end of the day to describe any person in a way based on their nationality is not very clever but the image that is projected by most counties is not that of ordinary citizens but that of their governments and many people will label people according to the image been projected of those who “represent” them. Unfortunately the dominant images projected from the states are of Christian fundamentalism, superiority, greed, authoritarian government, macho hawkish attitudes and disregard for the environment and a desire to have a free role in intervening in other countries affairs. Obviously this is not true of all Americans, perhaps even most Americans but they are the images on which people will make generalisations because they are more visible than the moderate intelligent American identity which is getting smothered out by all the negative stuff. (and before anyone says its just negative anti-american propaganda I think its fair to say that the negative images and attitudes are mostly a direct result of the messages coming directly from america itself and not a malicious third party with its own agenda)

Hobbes

Deleted User wrote:

Know what I mean? Its due to the air that many americans give off. That air of superiority and arrogance.

Which is more a confusion of a culture thing. American culture they are more likely to give thier opinion on things, express them more vocally and because of the whole "my rights" will argue on thier rights to do x,y,z that we would see as stupid. For example I've seen an argument take place over refusing to wear a seat belt because it restricts thier freedom of speech, or something like that.

As for arrogance. The US citizens are told how great a country they are on almost a daily basis. Have you read the US constitution? Its an incredible document and very well thought out, however it has no reflection on reality. Which is a shame, as the ideals in it are worthy but the US rarely if ever shows these ideals, especially if your not American.

Sure, guantanamo bay, Iraq, Patriot Act, etc all have their influence, but they're recent events. What irish people, and many other people i know from abroad, seem to have something thats much older than that.

The USA has been dicking around in various countries since WWII. The events you mentioned are just more in your face and public about it.

metrovelvet

Hobbes wrote:

Which is more a confusion of a culture thing. American culture they are more likely to give thier opinion on things, express them more vocally and because of the whole "my rights" will argue on thier rights to do x,y,z that we would see as stupid. For example I've seen an argument take place over refusing to wear a seat belt because it restricts thier freedom of speech, or something like that. .

They were probably trying to get out of getting a ticket. Wouldn't you try anything you can think of?

Hobbes wrote:

As for arrogance. The US citizens are told how great a country they are on almost a daily basis..

Where have you been? Are you kidding?

Actually it was living in Europe which made me love America, not America.

And yes, we are prone to hubris as a nation, but I do think that a fear of arrogance is a particular hang up of the Irish. You should read Walt Whitman's Song of Myself if you really want to understand what shapes the American conciousness. There is nothing wrong with being proud of yourself and your talents. If you've got it flaunt it.

Hobbes wrote:

Have you read the US constitution? Its an incredible document and very well thought out, however it has no reflection on reality. Which is a shame, as the ideals in it are worthy but the US rarely if ever shows these ideals, especially if your not American. .

What?

Hobbes

metrovelvet wrote:

They were probably trying to get out of getting a ticket. Wouldn't you try anything you can think of?

No this was an actual discussion on seat belt laws in MA. They were arguing that while children should buckle up it would infringe on civil liberties for adults to buckle up and don't see why they should have to do it.

Where have you been? Are you kidding?

Well I've lived in the US and been all over the US. Culture varies wildly from state to state but the majority (prior to Bush) strongly believe that America is the shining beacon of light for the rest of the world to follow, which nearly everyone I met where totally oblivous to what the US gets up to with its foriegn policy.

On my trips I've seen an American couple wondering why Greeks where so hostile to them (CIA helped a coup to overthrow the government that lead to many deaths and torture of greek nationals), or others in Hawaii saying its great its part of America but don't know how it became part of America (US basically kidnapped the Queen and forced her to give up the country).

I have friends from Puerto Rico who are part of the American territories which means they are part of America but can't effect US policy in anyway (Eg. Vote for president). I recall the US going to a civil war over no taxation without representation. Sound familar?

There is nothing wrong with being proud of yourself and your talents. If you've got it flaunt it.

The problem is when you don't have it.

What?

The American constitution is an incredible document. I've read it all. If it was followed I can see how Americans can believe thier culture is better then so many others. However the US hasn't followed the consitution in a long time and your average American would probably tell you that the constitution only refers to Americans. Hence the reason some people in the US seem to think its ok to detain people without rights, or outsource them for tourture.

metrovelvet

Hobbes wrote:

No this was an actual discussion on seat belt laws in MA. They were arguing that while children should buckle up it would infringe on civil liberties for adults to buckle up and don't see why they should have to do it. .

Who was discussing it? When? Where? You provide no context to this. So what, we're a big country, there's a lot of talk that goes on.

Hobbes wrote:

Well I've lived in the US and been all over the US. Culture varies wildly from state to state but the majority (prior to Bush) strongly believe that America is the shining beacon of light for the rest of the world to follow, which nearly everyone I met where totally oblivous to what the US gets up to with its foriegn policy. .

On many points I would agree, particularly when it comes to the status of women.

Hobbes wrote:

On my trips I've seen an American couple wondering why Greeks where so hostile to them (CIA helped a coup to overthrow the government that lead to many deaths and torture of greek nationals), or others in Hawaii saying its great its part of America but don't know how it became part of America (US basically kidnapped the Queen and forced her to give up the country). .

So? Your point being?

Hobbes wrote:

I have friends from Puerto Rico who are part of the American territories which means they are part of America but can't effect US policy in anyway (Eg. Vote for president). I recall the US going to a civil war over no taxation without representation. Sound familar?.

They dont pay tax.

Hobbes wrote:

The American constitution is an incredible document. I've read it all. If it was followed I can see how Americans can believe thier culture is better then so many others. However the US hasn't followed the consitution in a long time and your average American would probably tell you that the constitution only refers to Americans. Hence the reason some people in the US seem to think its ok to detain people without rights, or outsource them for tourture.

Explain. Here it is. http://www.usconstitution.net/ Show me how we dont. Reminder: it starts out "We, the people of the United States". It is relevent to the people of the United States.

What interpretive framework do you apply when making these judgements? New historicist? Deconstructionist? Post -Structuralist? What? Originalist? Modernist?

And btw what is your point abouit the constitution?

athena 2000

metrovelvet wrote:

They dont pay tax.

Exactly. Puerto Ricans don't necessarily want to effect US policy in any way. It's to their advantage to leave things the way they currently are.

Puerto Ricans have been given the opportunity to vote in a non-binding referendum four separate times to become either a state, an independent nation, or remain a commonwealth of the United States. This vote was conducted for opinion purposes, and the people elected to remain a commonwealth. The most recent referendum was held in 1998. They might be considered to be some of the most fortunate citizens of the United States.

Hobbes

metrovelvet wrote:

Who was discussing it? When? Where? You provide no context to this. So what, we're a big country, there's a lot of talk that goes on.

I was referring to a discussion I had with friends in the US.

So? Your point being?

My point being of certain examples where American citizens where totally oblivous to thier countries actions and then confused by hostilities they may of gotten in regards to that ignorance.

They dont pay tax.

They don't pay Federal taxes on income. They do however pay commercial taxes to the US at 35%(maybe 32% if H.R. 4323 went through) and all imports and exports are heavly taxed.

They do pay Federal payroll taxes to the US, and they do pay social security taxes and federal taxes other than income. However they have no access to any federal programs.

They also pay full medicare but only recieve a small portion of that benefit back, and are still subject to all US federal laws.

Explain. Here it is. http://www.usconstitution.net/ Show me how we dont. Reminder: it starts out "We, the people of the United States". It is relevent to the people of the United States.

See what I mean by total ignorance of the document. The quote you comment refers to the preamble only. Everything else in the document refers to "Person", "People". Not "Americans".

And btw what is your point abouit the constitution?

I already made the point. Go back and read it.

Mad Finn

metrovelvet wrote:

And btw what is your point abouit the constitution?

The poster can answer for him or her self, and several others have too, but I think a valid criticism of the discrepancy between the noble sentiments expressed in the US Constitution and Declaration of Independence and the practice of those close to it is really quite marked.

For example, in the preamble to the Declaration of Independence it says:

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."


Who can argue with that?

Then ponder the fact that the author, and several of the signatories to the declaration were slave owners.

How do you square that?

Sand

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

Who can argue with that?

Atheists probably.

Then ponder the fact that the author, and several of the signatories to the declaration were slave owners.

How do you square that?

It was written in 1787 or so, by mere mortals? Or to go into slightly more depth the US constitution, like any idea, is not responsible for who believes in it or advocates it but on its merits alone.

Either way, the dispute was due to Hobbes assertion that the US constitution actually applies to every person in the world, whereas Metro is of the opinion it applies to Americans.

Personally, seeing as the framers of the document neglected to define terms like Person, Citizen or Juristicition of the document its all debateable, which is probably the strenth of the document. It can mean whatever you want it to mean. Usage of terms tightened up and seemed to be more considered in later parts from my quick glance through, but still you have the prospect of Hobbes being executed for Treason against the United States given

Section 3 - Treason Note

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

Im no lawyer, but Id have thought citizenship was a prequisite to treason. Otherwise every person who fought against the US in any war could be executed for treason.

Generally the common sense application of terminology has applied, and whilst Hobbes might claim the constitution is a dead document it seems a bit of an over reaction to the Bush presidecy/Gitmo given the Supreme Court still seems to believe it can cement its rulings on Gitmo with references to the document.

kaimera

So it's pretty much America's foreign policy that has everyone upset/peeved at the US?

On the culture thing, there are plenty of Irish folk who like to talk and be as brash as some of the American's...but lets ignore that i guess.

Aside from the price of Oil atm, what problems on Irish soil can be accounted for by the US?

Mad Finn

Mad Finn wrote:

The poster can answer for him or her self, and several others have too, but I think a valid criticism of the discrepancy between the noble sentiments expressed in the US Constitution and Declaration of Independence and the practice of those close to it is really quite marked.

For example, in the preamble to the Declaration of Independence it says:

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."


Who can argue with that?

Then ponder the fact that the author, and several of the signatories to the declaration were slave owners.

How do you square that?

I'm not going to defend Americans or Americans well in their graves, however, the discreprency regarding the slaves is one of society. Slavery was an accepted form for hundreds of years, and even though the Union made a big deal about freeing the slaves (in most cases not as free as the word suggests), it takes time for such changes to filter through peoples moral centres. For many people, while believing in freedom and inalienable rights, they will retain many of the orals/guidelines they gained from their parents and culture(s).

To judge by our standards is to look back on over a hundred years of change. To them this was a change of the moment, and regardless of what good intentions they may have had, who can guess at what feelings were in their deepest minds.

No. The slavery thing is obvious now, but only because we have progressed to this stage, in part, because of the steps they made. That in itself was admirable, considering the tme in which they championed the cause.

I wonder how many of the politicians that supported the anti-slavery, only did so for support from other politicians for their own bills, like "the right to bear arms", which in my mind holds more disrepute.

Hobbes

Sand wrote:

Atheists probably.

Atheists have a creator. Just not a god.

It can mean whatever you want it to mean.

Which is what is happening now.

Im no lawyer, but Id have thought citizenship was a prequisite to treason. Otherwise every person who fought against the US in any war could be executed for treason.

Just playing with words now tbh. The defination of treason is clearly laid out in the constitution. Just because you define it as having to be a national/citizen has nothing to do with it. If you can dig out a SCJ ruling on it. Would be intrested to read it.

But you bring up an intresting part of the constitution and what is so wrong with the US at the moment.

That part of the constitution regarding treason was to protect those who would be charged without any proof. Which is what went on beforehand.

However the US found that this ruling didn't help so they created new laws allowing them to bypass the constitution. Heck the American Taliban caught in Afganistan was charged under murder rather the treason as it was easier to get a case.

hilst Hobbes might claim the constitution is a dead document

I never claimed such thing at all. You all seem intent on putting words in my mouth

it seems a bit of an over reaction to the Bush presidecy/Gitmo given the Supreme Court still seems to believe it can cement its rulings on Gitmo with references to the document.

SCJ have already said that Gitmo is illegal. What does Bush do? try to change the laws. come to think of it many laws enacted Bush has pretty much ignored as well.

Aside from the price of Oil atm, what problems on Irish soil can be accounted for by the US?

Apart from ignoring possibly the biggest thing you mean? Does it have to be something that only effects Ireland?

You know a lot of Americans didn't give a tosh about WWII until Pearl Harbour got hit. Should we share the same mentality that evil things should happen in this world until it effects us directly?

metrovelvet

Hobbes wrote:

Just playing with words now tbh. The defination of treason is clearly laid out in the constitution. Just because you define it as having to be a national/citizen has nothing to do with it. If you can dig out a SCJ ruling on it. Would be intrested to read it.?

You cant commit treason against a country that you are not a citizen of. Its not possible. Why is this hard for you to understand? I cant be hanged for treason by India for example because my citizenship does not tie me to any allegiances there. Oy veh. The US constitution can only apply to US citizens. How can it apply to Irish or Polish citizens? Do you expect the Irish consititution to apply to US citizens? Really, I dont know what you are getting at with this that one country's constitution can apply to the citizens of another.

Hobbes wrote:

However the US found that this ruling didn't help so they created new laws allowing them to bypass the constitution. Heck the American Taliban caught in Afganistan was charged under murder rather the treason as it was easier to get a case..?

You really dont understand the American government do you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers

Hobbes wrote:

SCJ have already said that Gitmo is illegal. What does Bush do? try to change the laws. come to think of it many laws enacted Bush has pretty much ignored as well. ..?

For all your talk about Bush, you know he' sonly vetoed congress once in his entire presidency? He cant change laws - he doesnt have the authority to do that.

Hobbes wrote:

You know a lot of Americans didn't give a tosh about WWII until Pearl Harbour got hit. Should we share the same mentality that evil things should happen in this world until it effects us directly?

That's because we had an isolationist policy, which is what it seems the world would like us to have again. You cant make up your mind- do you want the US to interfere or dont you? Or only when YOU decide its appropriate?

Hobbes

metrovelvet wrote:

The US constitution can only apply to US citizens. How can it apply to Irish or Polish citizens?

Because it refers to People, not Americans. Of course if you only think that that Americans are people and not anyone else then yea it only applies to Americans.

You really dont understand the American government do you?

And you don't bother to check up on the american arrested with the Taliban. He was charged for Murder not treason as they found trying for Treason wouldn't work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers

For all your talk about Bush, you know he' sonly vetoed congress once in his entire presidency? He cant change laws - he doesnt have the authority to do that.

Funny you should post that link with the comment about Bush.

Actually it has nothing to do with the Veto. He is purposely ignoring laws enacted that he should be following (over 750). Even the American Bar Association have made this complaint that Bush is undermining the rule of law.

Here's some stuff for you to go read up on.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/04/30/bush_challenges_hundreds_of_laws/
President Bush has quietly claimed the authority to disobey more than 750 laws enacted since he took office, asserting that he has the power to set aside any statute passed by Congress when it conflicts with his interpretation of the Constitution.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/25/dobbs.july26/
The American Bar Association claims President Bush has violated that oath by issuing hundreds of "signing statements" to disregard selected provisions of the laws that Congress passed and he signed.


You are right though. He doesn't have the power to do this, but hasn't stopped him so far.

That's because we had an isolationist policy, which is what it seems the world would like us to have again.

There is a difference between fighting evil in the world and helping to escalate it to benefit your own country.