Why is American racism ok?

dbnavan

Just thinking.....

If I came on here and slagged off, jews, Africans, Asians, or even most europeans, I would run the risk of being banned for being Racist, but if I came here and made a statement about americans being Loud, abnoxious, fat, whatever......it would be acceptable, or at least debated. So the question I pose is why are we given free reign as a nation(not only online members), to be so racist towards, the country that gives us so much, jobs....tourism.....entertainment.....list is endless.

Sleepy

As was pointed out to you in After Hours, this isn't racism but predjudice based on nationality.

However, I think this doesn't even count as a real prejudice, it's referring to a stereotype which is usually based on a generalisation. In general, Americans tend to be louder and more brash than Europeans. In general, obesity is a bigger problem in the US than it is here in Ireland/Europe (though we're catching them). So these things become part of their national stereotype.

All nations have these stereotypes. We have a stereotype of a conman for people from nigeria because of the proliferation of internet scams involving that country. We have a stereotype of the Irish as drunks because of the pub culture and binge drinking nature of our idea of a 'good night out'. We have a stereotype of Asians being short because their average height is lower than that of equivalent Europeans.

Most stereotypes exist because of a kernel of truth. Their blunt generalisations, not a surgical linguisitic tool to describe every facet of a nationality. TBH, unless you're stupid enough to believe them of all citizens of a nation, I don't really see any harm in them. In fact, they can be quite a useful indicator of things a nation needs to focus on (e.g. we need to work on our national drink problem, the states need to work on their national obesity problem etc.)

Zombrex

Sleepy wrote:

As was pointed out to you in After Hours, this isn't racism but predjudice based on nationality.

And was also pointed out in After Hours, anytime someone does start on a rant with generalisations about Americans it is normally met with quite a few posts that point out that it is nothing more than a rant about American generalisations. I'm not sure where the OP got the idea that American "racism" is ok Ok according to whom?

dave2pvd

I only noticed this issue when I travelled home 1 Christmas with my American wife. Some comments heard were certainly offensive. Many were just completely ignorant. I had never realised how unnacceptable such comments were.

My wife, for her part, only lashed out once. At my English cousin! His comments on Americans being 'stupid' were not well received. He was speaking from a strong position: everything he knew about Americans, he learned from TV.

walshb

The US, population close on 300 Mill. Ireland close on 5 Mill. They are in the 'halfpenny place' compared to us as regards obesity, loudness, corruption etc etc.

But I'd stil rather live here in Ireland

lostexpectation

familirise yourself with the words bigotry, xenophobia, superiority, ego...

InFront

americans arent vulnerable. politically, economically, administratively, they are strong. People always stick up for the underdog, this is probably a good thing.

Personally I would be much angrier at "racism"? towards Nigerian people here on asylum or other minority groups than an American tourist

Feral Mutant

Ahem http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054959852

antSionnach

this is like the question, why are Muslim jokes sometimes not okay but Catholic jokes are. Theyre not okay because its too sensitive. Freedom of speech can be a bad thing, you have to exercise it very carefully. Americans dont have much to whine about, and when they do, we'll all know about it

Shellie13

its always "okay" to slag off the ones who are in a preferable position. For instance in the work place women can slag of men but men must dare not say anything to a woman or deal with accusations of sexism. Working class can slag off middleclass's accents etc but if it happens the other way arounfd its deemed ignorance... We slag off the americans with their flash cars etc but we darent say anything about an african american in harlem for instance... The irish are slagged off now for their drinking in say spain, france england etc...And we take it because were a "happy" country today...BUt go back to the days when England was full of poor Irish looking for work- that was seen as highly offensive...

These social rules are funny but it does seem that people care about who's precieved as the underdog or to be getting a raw deal!

dbnavan

Feral Mutant wrote:

Ahem http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054959852

It was binned because of the muppetry which goes on in After Hours, the Mod's pm'd me and told me if I want intelligent discussion to bring it over here, and I requested to know would I be banned for a re post and was told no it was acceptable. So keep you knickers on!:D

Pocari Sweat

Theres the slagging americans off in their absence, but as the other poster mentioned its a bit tricky if you try slagging a doodle dandy off in their presence, they are not going to be to impressed obviously. If you hear about the English slagging of the Irish in general, you probably would not give too much of a ****e, but if an anglo gent was giving you a right slagging in front of you about say, religion, potato, IQ issues or whatever, you may get a bit stoppy starty.

If the yanks are on holiday in Ireland, the thing is they are on a break for a week or so from work and the stress etc, so while in ireland they do not need some drunken f*ck in their face slagging them off, going on about Bush and how the yanks are knob eds. The fair thing to do is give them a break and let them enjoy their hols, and spend money in ireland that goes in the economy so they will be back and as long as their country's foreign policies don't get much worse (if they could) you can at least let them be when they take their hols.

If they choose to live over here, still they don't need a load of abuse, and many ex-pat yanks may think Bush is a right proper dick anyway.

And outright slagging of the yanks should always be tempered by the fact that most people are watching hollywood films and scoffing McD burgers and buying and using US products etc, so can't disagree with them too much.

dbnavan

Pocari Sweat wrote:

.

If the yanks are on holiday in Ireland, the thing is they are on a break for a week or so from work and the stress etc, so while in ireland they do not need some drunken f*ck in their face slagging them off, going on about Bush and how the yanks are knob eds.

That reminds me a couple of years ago my wife and I where coming out of the Gaiety and this ould fella with a few jars on him heard her talking and walked up to her and started given he abuse over bush and wtf she was doing here, I then told him not so poiltly that I infact was a dub she is my wife not go away and sober up.

lostexpectation

so your wife is american... that explains it

aphex™

Americans have a bad name in every country in the world.

Why should Ireland be any different?

And why do you expect it to be different here?

Nothing against them myself now, depens on the person really.

dbnavan

aphex&#8482 wrote:

Americans have a bad name in every country in the world.

Why should Ireland be any different?

And why do you expect it to be different here?

Nothing against them myself now, depens on the person really.

If you have nothing against them why would you say its to be expected?

That like me saying I have nothing against blacks but if they come here they should expect racism. Bit of a contradiction.

aphex™

dbnavan wrote:

If you have nothing against them why would you say its to be expected?

That like me saying I have nothing against blacks but if they come here they should expect racism. Bit of a contradiction.

Because their foreign policy is a mess and pretty much everybody is ticked off with it to the point where they'll give out about it openly in the street to any random american.

And will you give up with the racism? Its not racism ok, its like I'm from Dublin and I go down the country the locals don't take kindly to Dubliners there in certain areas.

I have nothing against them because I have my own opinions on the war on terror. Which go against those of most people.

dbnavan

aphex&#8482 wrote:

Because their foreign policy is a mess and pretty much everybody is ticked off with it to the point where they'll give out about it openly in the street to any random american.

And will you give up with the racism? Its not racism ok, its like I'm from Dublin and I go down the country the locals don't take kindly to Dubliners there in certain areas.

I have nothing against them because I have my own opinions on the war on terror. Which go against those of most people.

I have yet to meet an American who believes the occupation of Iraq is right, I would say less then 20% of Americans I know actually voted for bush the 1st time, many voted for him the second time as he started something that it was up to him to finish.

And yes it us racism, what you get when you go down the country is slagging not racism, what a lot of Americans get here is pure hatred and abuse.

aphex™

dbnavan wrote:

I have yet to meet an American who believes the occupation of Iraq is right, I would say less then 20% of Americans I know actually voted for bush the 1st time, many voted for him the second time as he started something that it was up to him to finish.

Well over 50% voted him in the 2nd time and just under 50% the first time. The americans you know probably know there are places other than Iraq in the world and are well traveled. The ones you know aren't conservatives.

The ones you know aren't the majority.

Hobbes

aphex&#8482 wrote:

Well over 50% voted him in the 2nd time and just under 50% the first time.

Well its never based on how many Americans voted for him and more to do where Americans voted for him.

TBH, most of the issue is because of Forigen policy. Pick any country in the world and you can find history of the USA fuking around with the government there where the results were more or less detrimental to the people of that country. In some instances even destroying valid democracies to put in dictators.

It gets annoying because your average American is totally oblivious to its countries own external history or goings on day to day with the outside world, and then gets upset when they don't know why there is open hostility in those countries. TBH most don't care about the outside world. If you have been to America its practically a world within itself.

Add to that we are bombarded day to day with American Proproganda (translation: TV shows) where we are shown to be American is a great thing that everyone should aspire too. Great ideals but not really true in reality.

Truth is that nearly every country is like this to some extent, just the US holds the record for the most dicking around in other peoples countries.

Sleepy

When you're a member of a gang that bullies the rest of the kids in town you have to expect to get a slap when you're caught on your own.

dictionary.com wrote:

rac·ism Audio pronunciation of "racism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

How is giving an American stick for the acts of their government rascist. I don't see how you can think American constitute a 'race'. They're a multi-racial country that are currently receiving negative feedback on their collective behaviour. I feel a lot of sympathy for anyone who campaigned against Bush in the last election and has to endure the wrath of the rest of the world now because their elected officials are arseholes.

dbnavan

Sleepy wrote:

How is giving an American stick for the acts of their government rascist. I don't see how you can think American constitute a 'race'. .

Also from Dictonary.com
Race:
# A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
# A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.

CiaranC

dbnavan, based on that definition, any two people from anywhere can constitute a distinct race.

'American' is not a race.

Sleepy

dbnavan wrote:

Also from Dictonary.com
Race:
# A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
# A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.

A re-highlighting of your own quote supports my argument. And since when are American's considered to have a common history? The different racial groups in the states all have different histories as to how they arrived there, the Irish on the coffin ships, the black people through slavery, the pilgrims through fleeing religious persecution etc.

metrovelvet

The US has both common and competing histories.

We are a nation of many races in the literal older usage of the word race. In the more flexible and modern usage of it we are a group of people from a geographic region, and racism has elasticated to mean more than its strictest most literal translation.

Racism, bigotry, prejudice, however precious you want to get with these words, they all basically come down to the same thing. Really getting stuck on these vocabularly lessons will detract from the OPs question.

bonkey

dbnavan wrote:

Just thinking.....

If I came on here and slagged off, jews, Africans, Asians, or even most europeans, I would run the risk of being banned for being Racist,

The risk, yes.

Then again, I think you'll find no shortage of people making negative comments about Zionism, Israelis and often Jews if you look around at the moment. Muslims too. Eastern Europeans less so. Ask Sand about the French if you want to see what is and is not permissable in terms of "criticising" Europeans.

but if I came here and made a statement about americans being Loud, abnoxious, fat, whatever......it would be acceptable, or at least debated.

Would it?

I'm asking because I can't honestly ever remember seeing a thread with a title like "Americans are loud fat obnoxious stupid people", so I honestly don't know if it would result in a banning or not.

I know I certainly wouldn't start such a thread, because I'd expect to be banned/cautioned for it, or at the last for the thread to be closed for being nothing but an illogical rant. However, if someone started a thread asking for opinions on Americans, I think I'd expect to see some sweeping generalisations without the posters being banned for them.

Strange that we have such significantly differing perspectives.

So the question I pose is why are we given free reign as a nation(not only online members), to be so racist towards,

Do we? I don't believe I could honestly say I've seen Americans as a people being the target of any larger amount of irrational criticism than any other group.

I definitely haven't seen them subjected to the levels of the irrational fear-mongering and hate-spewing that I've seen Jews, Muslims, Blacks, Eastern Europeans etc. subjected to in recent year.

I have seen US domestic and foreign policy criticised more heavily, but thats not racist.

This is sometimes projected onto the American people, but then again...should a people not be held (at least somewhat) to account for their democratic decisions?

Sure, it goes overboard every so often, but seriously...there is no comparison to the amount of content you'll see from people "rationally" explaining why we need to fight off the Muslims before Ireland is under Sharia Law, or why the Eastern Europeans are only here to work the system.

dbnavan

bonkey wrote:

The risk, yes.

Then again, I think you'll find no shortage of people making negative comments about Zionism, Israelis and often Jews if you look around at the moment. Muslims too. Eastern Europeans less so. Ask Sand about the French if you want to see what is and is not permissable in terms of "criticising" Europeans.



Would it?

I'm asking because I can't honestly ever remember seeing a thread with a title like "Americans are loud fat obnoxious stupid people", so I honestly don't know if it would result in a banning or not.

Try here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054959398

Beruthiel

dbnavan wrote:

Try here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054959398

ermm
dbnavan
You are aware of the fact that pvt.joker, the thread starter, is actually an american from Warminster, PA USA....

Pink Bunny

Beruthiel wrote:

ermm
dbnavan
You are aware of the fact that pvt.joker, the thread starter, is actually an american from Warminster, PA USA....

*shudders* here's hoping that thread doesn't rear it's hateful head again any time soon. That poster later stated he loved to argue and I think that was his intention rather than enlightening anyone on what the majority of Americans think.

As someone from the states who has visited Ireland several times as well as other countries I'd say I was fortunate not to run into any abuse in person. When I've sat and talked about politics it's almost always been "we like Americans, we just don't like your government". Heck, I don't like our government either and I live in the midwest and most of the ppl I know don't like or trust our government either so that's understandable.

I've just noticed that there are a lot of misconceptions about the US like one night last year I spent the evening talking to a German who said the KKK was a big problem here and that they are very popular and I was dumbfounded because that's not true at all. They are a group that unfortunately still exist but are only favored within their own subculture. My German friend said that he got his idea from watching "Mississippi Burning" which was a movie set in the 1960's. He was an otherwise intellegent person very up on world events so that shocked me. That's an extreme example but the only one that came to my head just now.

Sand

Ask Sand about the French if you want to see what is and is not permissable in terms of "criticising" Europeans.

Dbnavan, to pre-empt your question, you cant even say that you found the French to be rude and obnoxious without the Francophile (they even have a word for it ffs!) Association, Boardsie Chapter arriving enmasse to correct you and "remind" you that you actually found the French to be polite and charming...

On the other hand theres no such word as Americanophile - until now.

Generally, there is a long history of propaganda that paints the US, its people and its culture in a negative light. The Nazis, Communists/Socialists, Extremist Islam etc etc have all demonised the US as a symbol of all thats wrong with the world. Throw enough mud and some of it sticks. Also, all societies are self-criticial, but few have the freedom of expression and cultural projection of the US.

Dirk Gently

Sand wrote:

Generally, there is a long history of propaganda that paints the US, its people and its culture in a negative light. The Nazis, Communists/Socialists, Extremist Islam etc etc have all demonised the US as a symbol of all thats wrong with the world. Throw enough mud and some of it sticks. Also, all societies are self-criticial, but few have the freedom of expression and cultural projection of the US.

I don’t think its fair to blame "propaganda" for peoples dislike of America after all if people were to believe all the propaganda we hear then we would all be pro-American as America historically relies very successfully on propaganda or marketing as I like to call it to advance its aims. I think the main gripe people have with America is its foreign policy and what people see as a negative influence and a lot of the time untruthful and aggressive stance it takes. This dis-like for American foreign policy is more a result of the reality of American governments actions and rhetoric as oppose to some mythological mis-conception about its aims. The U.S. is quite clear in its aims and approach to global security and trade and many people feel Americas dominant position and near dictatorial role in the international community is at odds with what they want to happen themselves and see the U.S. as a barrier to progress on many issues ranging from the environment to conflict resolution or even see America as conflict creationists.

While there is of course negative and unfounded propaganda against the U.S. I think most of peoples problems are founded in what the U.S. government themselves say and do. I would question as to what degree Americans are free to express themselves. America is a very nationalistic country and a lot of self criticism is viewed as being un-American. (You have to love that contradictory word) How can a self diagnostic opinion by an American citizen or domestic group with the purpose of making America a better place be described as un-American. It is a handy way of demonizing descent though by claiming your opponent is un-patriotic.

Of course all of what I said is based on a person having a negative view of American politics, I have no explanation for a general dislike of ordinary American citizens except to say that the person who you would describe as hating Americans might be pissed off with their voting habits and see them as responsible for their governments actions.
Either that or they’re just ignorant and in that case they would be plain old fashioned racist. (applying the geographical definition of race as those people who make up a country, i.e. French, Irish, German, American as separate races of people) not technically correct but I think racist is just a handy way of describing an irrational fear or dislike of a group of people. No doubt more correct terms can be applied to describe someone who hates all Americans but ignorant and racist are just a handy label which I think covers it without getting pedantry.