Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
buying a piano
Options
-
01-07-2006 11:11pm#1
Comments
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
squibs wrote:If you are prepared to sacrifice the aesthetics of a piano without compromisng (really) on the sound, try this from m-audio. It comes with sustain pedal, but will need headphones, a keyboard amp, or a stereo with aux input as I dont believe it has built in speakers.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProKeys88-main.html
If you're looking for something more authentic, but still at a great price, try the Behringer range which is due to ship in the next month or two:
http://www.behringer.com/02_products/musicalinstruments-index.cfm?lang=ENG#DIGITAL%20PIANOS%20&%20PORTABLE%20KEYBOARDS
Do not buy her either of these if she is a trained pianist. I've been playing piano for about a decade now and the response off those supposed "hammer-action" keys on the m-audio series is very poor. I haven't had a chance to try the behringer one but they make their living off cloning cheap versions of other peoples products so I wouldn't hold my breath.
For the price of a good electric piano with proper hammer-action you're as well off getting a nice upright instead - it's a piece of furniture for the new house, looks better and the sound really can't be matched by any digital reproduction on the market. As I said, the Yamaha uprights are very good quality and are competitively priced.
If you're really keen on going the electric piano route however, go to Waltons and look out for Korg, Roland and Yamaha as good brands and then copy the model number and get it off thomann.de
0 -
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
squibs wrote:The response curve can be changed. I'm an amateur around pianos as guitar is my instrument, but for what it's worth the m-audio response felt realistic to me once I'd changed the curve. And I do have access to an analog piano for comparison. It also compared favourably with a Fatar master keyboard and a Korg stage piano.
I was really referring to the keypress action of the keys more than the velocity curve or whatever it's called. I play keyboards and piano and I actually own the M-Audio Keystation 88es, it's a great keyboard - as are the rest of that series - but it's not a clavinova or piano and wasn't designed as such. Even the proper stage piano offering from them, the m-audio prokeys 88, doesn't beat the offerings from yamaha, korg, roland and the like - and this is comparing it to three uprights, two grand pianos and a clavinova (roland for the record). Either way, these are products geared more towards gigging musicians than heavy domestic use, you just can't put pictures and lamps on top of a keyboard can you?
It's fashionable to slag off Behringer for being cheap. In my own studio I have their VAMP, mx2004 mixing desk, and a patch bay. I've just ordered a midi controller off of them. I don't buy Behringer just because it's cheap - I own a fair bit of big-brand stuff too. I buy Behringer 'cos it works well for me and I've never had an ounce of problems from any of their gear. Don't write 'em off.
I'm not writing them off and I'm not being fashionable. I fully support behringer equipment (barring their noisy eurorack mixers and other low-end "pro-audio" gear) and I think they're great recommendations for people on a tight budget or home producers/students etc... However, when the OP had asked for recommendations on a straight forward acoustic piano as a present from his wife and someone brings up a Behringer keyboard as an option... well you can kinda see where I'm coming from, can't you?
Tipperarymike - You simply can't go wrong with one of the Yamaha uprights if you can afford it. They last for decades with tuning, would make a great addition to your new home and if your wife has being playing piano for a few years at this stage, she'd appreciate it a lot more than a keyboard or stage piano.
If you can't afford a Yamaha upright then you should consider a clavinova in one of the more traditional styles, there are some good recommendations above. and buy it off www.thomann.de0 -
-
-
-
-
squibs wrote:He did not ask for a "straight forward acoustic piano", he asked for a piano. The spec was wide open...
I don't want to be faceitious about it, but he asked for a piano.
By definition, if it doesn't have hammers hitting strings inside triggerd by mechanical keys then iit's not a piano.squibs wrote:Have you even looked at the Behringer range?
I was not biasing the OP, I was just offering an opinion as were you. Ever since I've been able to go into town on my own I have tried everything with a keyboard in the music stores in Dublin. I would have certainly given the behringer stuff a fair and critical review if any shop had carried their stock. Basically, their gear is so cheap and their overheads so tight that they mainly use webbased stores to shift their goods.squibs wrote:The OP now believes that they are "the cheapest trash going".
In the terms you spoke of, behringer gear may work fine for you, but they are the cheapest trash going and are generally (rather than fashionably) considered so.
The behringer gear is mostly designed for cashstrapped teenage/student musicians and every item they've released in the last few years has been a cheap clone version of another companies superior product. Look at their range of fuzzboxes, their DJ mixers, their Ableton controllers, their MIDI keyboards etc... They were sued at least three times in the last 2 years by BOSS and Pioneer Audio for infringing design copyright.
I'd agree that Behringer gear works and I'd definitely advise it to someone on a tight budget as a means of taking their first steps, but as a guitarist you certainly know the difference between a Squire and a Fender strat? One is a cheap and inferior copy of the other. They both do the same thing and are built in the same way but the more expensive of the two is unarguably better than the budget Squire one. I think this is a better analogy than the one you made about Tokai guitars.
This is my view on the Behringer gear and this is how I form my opinion from seeing their other gear without seeing their keybords in person. I hope I'm not seen as being unreasonable about it.Given the potential budget concerns, I think it would be criminal not to A/B budget gear with the more upmarket stuff.
If someones asking about buying a piano for their wife's 30th birthday for their new house they've just bought... My assumption would normally be that they're not going to be looking at the bargain basement stuff
I'm not looking to start a big argument with you squibs, your opinions and advice are well judged and are based on sound premises. In a different advice scenario I'd be right behind you, I'm a big man for the buget alternative I just think you just might have misjudged the best option for the OP a small bit. 0 -
-
-
Tipperarymike - no need to apologise. You've created a healthy debate from which we (even me ) can learn something. That's the spirit of boards.
Oh dear, jimi_t. We're just not going to agree on anything, are we?By definition, if it doesn't have hammers hitting strings inside triggerd by mechanical keys then iit's not a piano.
Disagree - a digital piano is a piano, it just generates the sound in a different way. Same as an electric car is still a car. For every link quoted to an electric instrument in this thread (even the wee m-audio), the destination article calls the product a piano. Are they all wrong?but they are the cheapest trash going and are generally (rather than fashionably) considered so.
Disagree - often amongst the cheapest, Not trash. If it's suitable for the intended use (features, reliability, perceived quality all factor here), then it's not trash. That's what the tokai guitar analogy illustrates - surely you see what I'm getting at? Budget companies undercut for the most part by copying established designs (often flirting with copyright infringement as you say) and by producing in low cost countries. The Japanese nearly killed the American car industry with that approach, remember. They got so good at improving (as opposed to reinventing) the (Ameriacn) wheel, that even Americans stopped buying Fords - but I digress.
Some companies do it by churning out trash (doesn't work out of the box, doesn't do what it says on the tin, breaks when breathed upon, dreadful s/n ratio, etc.). They usually don't stay in business for long.They both do the same thing and are built in the same way but the more expensive of the two is unarguably better than the budget Squire one.
You're touching on what is the core of my whole point. Everybody has a different requirement re price/features. The squire is a fine guitar in it's own niche. It absolutely is the right solution (and furthermore the stratocaster is the wrong guitar) for a certain segment of the market - impoverished students, occasional players, etc. Fender sell 'em by the lorryload. I've gigged with 'em, and I would again. The stratocaster is indupitably a better guitar (I own one), but this does not make the lower spec squire trash.
I never suggested that the Behringer, or any other budget instrument, was the right product for the OP - I was merely offering it up as an option to be considered. With the information I had when I made my first post, my suggestions were as valid as anybody elses, especially given that the OP alluded to budget concerns. If somebody had suggested dropping a 5 figure sum on a Bossendorfer or Steinway, that would have also been valid.0 -
-
Advertisement
-
Don't worry about it tipperarymike, you've prompted one of the most interesting threads on boards in a while tbhsquibs wrote:Disagree - a digital piano is a piano, it just generates the sound in a different way. Same as an electric car is still a car. For every link quoted to an electric instrument in this thread (even the wee m-audio), the destination article calls the product a piano. Are they all wrong?
I'm afraid there's absolutely no way I could ever call something that doesn't have mechanical hammers hitting internal strings triggered by a mechanical keyboard interface a "piano". By definition, this a prerequisite for defining an instrument as a piano (as it is a prerequisite for defining a Harpsichord and other similar percussion instruments).
I can understand the logic of your electric argument completely, but by your own admission can you call a rackmount sampler unit (with piano samples) connected via MIDI to a control interface a "piano" - even though it generates (more or less) the same sound, just in a different way? If you package it in a fancy wood case with traditional piano stylings does that then make it a piano?
But I digress, the main reason I presumed the OP wanted a Piano as opposed to an electronic instrument was his admitted ignorance of music in general and that the scenario he presented us with - man wanting to buy a special present for his wife's 30th birthday, who used to play piano, and who has just moved into a new house - seemed to suggest a piano as opposed to a Clavinova or other alternativesquibs wrote:Disagree - often amongst the cheapest, Not trash. If it's suitable for the intended use (features, reliability, perceived quality all factor here), then it's not trash.
Fair enough, if you're an informed consumer then you know the risks involved in buying budget gear, with particular reference to Behringer stuff. The OP, by his own admission, wasn't, and I just wanted him to know that the public opinion and my own personal experience with the Behringer stuff isn't exactly laudable. It wasn't an attack on your setup!squibs wrote:Some companies do it by churning out trash (doesn't work out of the box, doesn't do what it says on the tin, breaks when breathed upon, dreadful s/n ratio, etc.).
If it doesn't 'do what it say on the tin' then a company is engaging in false advertising, which no major music company does - Behringer is especially careful of this as many consumer watchdogs are on their backs as well as many major companies which would love to see them out of business. If a product doesn't work out of the box, then it is a breach of basic consumer rights, again something which doesn't happen. That's two of your criteria nullified by law.
Now look at your remaining criteria to describe a music product as "trash".
breaks when breathed on - Inferior build quailty, cheaper materials and other cost-cutting measures means that the majority of Behringer gear (not all of it) has a lower than average product life, with products such as their guitar stomp-boxes able to sustain very little abuse compared to the BOSS and Electroharmonix pedals they were ripped off from.
dreadful s/n ratio - Stompboxes I mentioned above aren't true bypass, colour the tone and can result in some dreadful dissonant harmonics and signal noise. Cheaper Mixers, especially the Eurorack series, have a disgusting s/n ratio and a reputation for failing due to bad solder joints around the input and output sockets, or simply without explanation. Ditto DJ mixers (bad crossfaders, scratchy pots).
Some of the Behringer stuff is all right - that VAMP you have for example - but I would still say that the majority of Behringer gear, especially the cheaper stuff, is trash and that they are defined as so by your own criteria.squibs wrote:You're touching on what is the core of my whole point. Everybody has a different requirement re price/features.
Of course, but it's just as important to let them know how the product fairs. I have no problem with discussing budget options, but with a presumption as to the OPs budget and scenario (as stated above) I just offered an opinion - as a piano and keyboard player who is very familiar with their range of products - that the Behringer stuff in general is below par.squibs wrote:I never suggested that the Behringer, or any other budget instrument, was the right product for the OP - I was merely offering it up as an option to be considered.
And I was merely offering up my opinion that it was the wrong choice - I'm not bullying the OP into one decision over the other and I backed up everything I said with valid and well illustrated reasons. At the end of the day, however, we're two people he doesn't know and will probably never meet 0 -
-
Ah you're back, jimi_t
Beers in system right now. I shall return to the debate when I can give it the clear thought and respect it deserves. Have a good weekend and thanks for getting me thinking. I feel a cease fire is entirely possible and decomissioning is not beyond the bounds of possibility.
Ulster says "No!" but Squibs says "What was the question again?"0 -
-
-
I'm like a kid with a scab. I just can't stop picking away at it
But, you're right. I've decided not to post again on the subject, no matter how eloquent an counter argument jimi_t makes to my last post, in the interests of not letting a stimulating debate go stale.0 -
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
Advertisement