Am I Racist?

Tallspoon

My 4 year old daughter is due to start school in September. We went to the induction day last week and I was surprised to discover that of a class of 25 there are 12 Nigerian boys and 5 Poles who speak no English. The rest of the class are Irish.
After the induction day the teacher told me my daughter had been no trouble (she has been at Montessori for the last year) however I could see that some of the Africans were being disruptive.

I approached the principal about my concerns and she agreed that it was not a good balance of backgrounds in the class but another school in the town has been rejecting all immigrant children so they have no choice but to accept them.

My worry is that I feel my daughter will be left to get on with it by the teacher. The immigrant children will naturally place more demands on her time as English is not the first language for many of them. I think 17 immigrants and 8 Irish children is simply a disproportionate reflection of todays society. I am trying to find a place in another school for her.
Am I being racist?

super_furry

No. Your first priorty has to be your child and her education. If you feel she won't get the kind of education she needs at a certain school then you're right to remove her, regardless of the reasons.

mike65

If those demanding kids were freckly, red haired and called Gavin you'd still think the same thing I expect.

Mike.

Doctor DooM

You are not being rascist as long as your main problem is the fact that your child would suffer. If kids are going to disrupt your childs education it doesnt mater what colour their skin is. Their still being dusruptive.

The other school, on the other hand, IS actioning a rascist policy.

LovelyHurling

Yes there aren't enough resources in primary schools north or South to deal with the language barriers teachers have to overcome and it is probably best to take a child to a school where this problem doesnt exist if you can find one.

I could see that some of the Africans were being disruptive.

You meant some of the class, surely?

Anyway I dont think racism is what this is about, just a poor educational infrastructure.

Karoma

LovelyHurling wrote:

You meant some of the class, surely?

I'd imagine the OP was differentiating between the African pupils and the rest of the class (i.e. Irish and Polish).

McGinty

Does the school have extra resource teachers, its just where I live the local schools have extra teachers to help those with difficulties on a one to oe basis,

Karl Hungus

super_furry wrote:

No. Your first priorty has to be your child and her education. If you feel she won't get the kind of education she needs at a certain school then you're right to remove her, regardless of the reasons.

I'd agree with this.

Concern for your child's education does not equate racism.

iguana

SDooM wrote:

The other school, on the other hand, IS actioning a rascist policy.

I doubt this. The school would be well within their rights to stipulate that all pupils must have fluent english.

To the OP, I would definitely consider moving my child. Teachers get so little time to spend with children on a 1-to-1 basis under normal circumstances. If your child needs help she may not get it, and if she is brighter than average she will often be left to her own devices. And if the class ends up moving slowly she will get bored.

bonkey

iguana wrote:

I doubt this. The school would be well within their rights to stipulate that all pupils must have fluent english.

No. They wouldn't.

bonkey

One of my mates over here is moving one of his sons from an International (i.e. English-speaking) school to the local one.

One part of this is that the teachers will offer his son something like 40 hours of additional language schooling, free of charge. The aim of this is so that the child doesn't lose out as much for having poor language skills, nor does teh remainder of the class lose out as much from the teacher having to concentrate on one child.

There is nothing racist in recognising that language skills are lacking in a portion of the class. THe simple truth is that the language skills are lacking. The question is how this is being dealt with. If its simply benig passed over and ignored, then it is the education system which is at fault.

Consider why we have (assuming we still have them) remedial or special-needs classes in schools. Its a similar logic - children who's educational needs did not fit within what could be considered a standard profile - what the syllabus notionally targetted.

If what you are experiencing is anything more than a statistical blip then we should either reform our education system to accept a baseline of "no english-language skills assumed", or we should reform our education system so that those who have special needs in this regard (special relative to how our basline is defined) are given the opportunity to overcome their shortfall without disadvantaging the education that others receive.

Until such a reformation occurs, it is hard to fault a parent for choosing what they see as the best available option when it comes to the education of their child.

Jackie laughlin

I love the new multi-racial Ireland which is emerging. However, I think the second school's refusal is understandable. If they haven't the resources to deliver remedial education to the children who do not speak English, there is no point in admitting them as both those who speak English and those who don't will not get their required education.

masterK

Tallspoon wrote:

My 4 year old daughter is due to start school in September. We went to the induction day last week and I was surprised to discover that of a class of 25 there are 12 Nigerian boys and 5 Poles who speak no English.

Do you really mean no English or poor English? If they have no English whatsoever it is impossible for them to be thought, unless of course the teacher is capable of delivering the lesson in multiple languages.

I do find it astonishing that the school should allow such a situation to occur, have you spoken to the parents of any of the other children to see how they feel? You may have more luck with your cause if you act as a group.

ArthurDent

Welcome to the wonderful world of primary education in Ireland!

I can understand somewhat where you are coming from, but two points you might want to think about. I doubt that all of these kids have NO english - you'll probably find quite a few have been born here and speak english as well as any other 4 year old. Even if you had 25 "Irish" kids - with no language difficultes - its amazing how many other problems a class of 25 4 years have that will impact on the education of you child - how many will be special needs kids, need resource teaching, have had parents who didn't prepare them from school (teaching them how to dress, toilet themselves, open lunch boxes, share with others, read to them, sing them nursery rhymes etc). In some ways well balanced kids, with parents actively involved in their lives who don't have english as a first language are the easiest of the challenges in a school (my kid's school has over 50% of the children from international backgrounds).

From a resource point of view an ESL (English as second language) teacher is appointed for every 14 children that don't have english as their first language. These kids receive extra tuition every day and by the end of the first year most are grand.

Also it is crap that one school can descriminate against whole sections of our population, but that can happen - particularly if your enrolment policy prioitises those of a particular denomination, or what can happen is that people new to the country don't know their rights are are outright told lies, by people who have a vested interest in keeping a particular school free of a particular group. All schools should have an "open to all" enrolment policy, decided by catchment area, but this ain't going to happen because of the denominational system perpetuated here (and I blame the Govt not the churches for this).

If you feel strongly about this - go and chat to the principal and see what they think - they might be able to reassure you. If you are happy with this school apart from fears that your child might be left to her own devices, you might be pleasantly surprised, but if not and there are other areas for concern - move her now 8 years is an awful long time to be unhappy.

ArthurDent

Jackie laughlin wrote:

I love the new multi-racial Ireland which is emerging. However, I think the second school's refusal is understandable. If they haven't the resources to deliver remedial education to the children who do not speak English, there is no point in admitting them as both those who speak English and those who don't will not get their required education.

I don't agree, the school is meant to be a reflection of the community it represents and should accomodate as amny of the local kids as possible - why aren't the school authorities screaming for the extra resources they need to help the situation.

Where do you think kids that don't have great english be educated? Do you think they need to be educated seperatley - don't you think that will give rise to lots of other problems? Surely trying to bring everyone in a community together is they way to prevent the isolation and segregation immigrant communities have experienced elsewhere that are the cause of some of the race tensions we see elsewhere.

jay-me

If a school was setup for non english speaking childeren that was there to have them advance into mainstream education it would solve that problem they could use a year or two or whatever is necessary to grasp the language and then enter a normal school.

iguana

bonkey wrote:

No. They wouldn't.

Yes they are. Two of my cousins were born in Denmark and lived there with their until they were 8 and 5. Danish was their first language and when they moved to Ireland a few years ago their english needed to be at a certain level to be allowed entry to any of the local primary schools.

This is basic common sense. If a school doesn't have the resources to teach children who can't understand English then all the pupils will suffer.

jay-me

Obviously danish kids will have a difficult time of it because ireland is going through the " If I have a problem with a black person im racist syndrome" not the white danish kids syndrome that will come when all the black people have settled in.

magpie

Am I being racist?

No

humbert

Of course you're not being racist and the second school may simply be requiring a certain proficiency in subjects, including english, in order to get in rather than not allowing immigrants which would be overtly racist.

ArthurDent

humbert wrote:

Of course you're not being racist and the second school may simply be requiring a certain proficiency in subjects, including english, in order to get in rather than not allowing immigrants which would be overtly racist.

Proficiency in what subjects? This is primary school we're talking about- my 5 year old started last year and the only thing he was proficient in was eating crayons and playing games.

Jackie laughlin

ArthurDent,
I'm sure the 2nd school IS screaming blue murder over lack of resources.

We don't have integrated primary education in Ireland. Most schools are denominational and Islamic schools have now been added.

Integration is of course the way to go but remember that that means acculturation, i.e. making the newcomers Irish. Refusing to recognise that inability to speak English is a disadvantage doesn't help.

ArthurDent

Jackie laughlin wrote:

ArthurDent,
I'm sure the 2nd school IS screaming blue murder over lack of resources.

We don't have integrated primary education in Ireland. Most schools are denominational and Islamic schools have now been added.

Integration is of course the way to go but remember that that means acculturation, i.e. making the newcomers Irish. Refusing to recognise that inability to speak English is a disadvantage doesn't help.

Jackie Laughlin, I'm well aware of the state of primary education in Ireland, thanks, got invovled in setting up an Educate Together school myself and have been an active parent in it scince (btw what makes you think that an Islamic school isn't denominational?).

I think you are confused if you think the denominational schools are the cause of this problem.

Where did I refuse to recognise that inablility to speak English is a disadvantage? I pointed out that - especially at the age of 4 or 5, if you have motivated parents AND the appropriate support in school most kids who do not have English as a first language do fine. It's not the biggest problem in the world - there are much worse, particularly those who find themselves with children with "special-needs" that don't fit into the DES new catagorisiations for support (talk to anyone with a kid with mild autism or aspergers syndrome and ask them how "integrated" they feel). Schools, all schools receiving public funding, have a duty to provide appropriate education for the community they serve, allowing "opt-out" clauses for particular "difficult" groups just should not be an option and the schools and parents should keep on screaming blue bloody murder till they get what they need. Should schools be able to "not-integrate" other marginalised kids - we don't allow them (in law) to descriminate against travellers, and more and more "Section 29" cases are being fought by parents refused places.

I do agree that some schools can use their enrolment policy (ie that you must be of a particular denomination to receive priority on the enrolment list) to "screen out" foreigners, but many, many schools (denominational and multidenominational) have very inclusive policies and work very hard to meet the needs of the pupils in their areas.

I really don't get your point about integration meaning making all kids Irish - "acculturation" you called it, what do you mean by this? To me I'm happy to see kids that by the time they leave primary school can read and speak English (and Irish) to an age-appropriate level - what do you want them to do, dance riverdance or recite Bunracht na hEireann as gaeilge?

Jackie laughlin

Arthur,
I do of course think that an Islamic school is denominational.

I don't think that this thread is the most important issue facing the world but it is being discussed here.

Congratulations on your work in founding a progressive school.

I don't claim any expertise other than fatherhood in teaching young children but it seems self evident to me that if a high proportion of children in a class need special attention, then the teacher won't be able to cope and all the children will be worse off. Again, I wouldn't have the expertise to define "high proportion" but I would reckon that a couple of non-English speaking kids or kids with some other need for special attention could be accommodated without too much problem. However, at the other end of the spectrum of difficulty, a majority of kids requiring such attention would make progress impossible. There surely comes a point on that contimuum where parents of an average kid take fright and look for another school.

I don't know why you need to become rude and/or ridiculous with your taunt about Riverdance. I too would be more than happy if all children at the end of primary school were literate and numerate. If Irish were included in that competence that would be a bonus.

humbert

ArthurDent wrote:

Proficiency in what subjects? This is primary school we're talking about- my 5 year old started last year and the only thing he was proficient in was eating crayons and playing games.

sorry didn't read it carefully and assumed secondary school.

lostexpectation

er if actually choose to remove her yes you are.... i think its criminal that other school won't akte any of these children but i don't know, as arthurdent said i don't know if the issue of fluent language is really that big a factor for 4 yr olds

4 yr olds!!!!

ArthurDent

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Art
I don't know why you need to become rude and/or ridiculous with your taunt about Riverdance. I too would be more than happy if all children at the end of primary school were literate and numerate. If Irish were included in that competence that would be a bonus.

Didn't mean to be rude - apologies - but was emphasising what i thought was ridiculuous in your post about "acculturation" and the aim of integration being to make everyone "Irish". What is the definition of being Irish and how and why would you want everyone living here to be it?

As I pointed out I just want everyone leaving primary school to be able to read and write (Irish and English) and function well in society.

Jackie laughlin

Arthur,
Thanks. No harm done.

I was trying to point out that often when people speak of "integration", they fail to see that this means quite a degree of homogonisation. My origins are in working class Dublin. My culture is predominantly Anglo-Irish. I speak Irish. I dislike Irish music unless it is modernised and subject to arrangement. I was reared playing soccer. I have no interest in Gaelic games. I'm socialist and detest Irish so-called republicanism. Why am I saying all this? Well, to get to next sentence. I nevertheless believe that Irishness is coherent and very strong. Integration will eliminate multiculturalism very quickly in Ireland.

ArthurDent

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Arthur,
I nevertheless believe that Irishness is coherent and very strong. Integration will eliminate multiculturalism very quickly in Ireland.

I still don't get what you mean about integration eliminating multiculturalism and also what YOU define by "Irish", I bet you ask 100 people what it means to be "Irish" and you'll get 100 answers.

mountainyman

While your concerns are valid they are also misplaced.
The purpose of Junior Infants is socialisation. It teaches children how to behave in school. They teach them nothing else.

MM

The Corinthian

When I moved over and first went to school here, I have little or no English. It took me two months to get to near fluency, apparently.

Having said that, I was the only non-English speaker in the class, so it was not going to cause particularly greater pressure on teaching resources. Another observation is that it also meant that I had to learn English - otherwise I would have had no other kids to play with. With 12 Nigerian and 5 Poles it’s far more likely that they will club together rather than go to the effort of learning a new language, making the task of integration and learning even harder.

Are you racist? No, you’ve not in any way implied that any of this has anything to do with race. Don’t get caught up in ‘catch all’ PC definitions.

The Sweeper

The Corinthian wrote:

When I moved over and first went to school here, I have little or no English.

Still don't, apparently.

Jackie laughlin

Corinthian, Welcome!

Minesajackdaniels, That was neither funny nor a sentence.


Yes, Irishness has become broad since about the 80s. The whole of the nation has been accepted. We are no longer defined merely as Gaelic, rural, nationalist and Catholic. Nevertheless, a newcomer would see a coherent culture and a strong vibrant one at that. All I'm saying is that integration especially in Ireland will eliminate multiculturalism. To be blunt, the new Irish may be black or Islamic but if they attend integrated schools and mix with us, they'll be saying "Jaysus" in no time!

The Corinthian

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Corinthian, Welcome!

That’s so belated as to be utterly condescending.

Minesajackdaniels, That was neither funny nor a sentence.

Actually I thought it was funny.

Yes, Irishness has become broad since about the 80s. The whole of the nation has been accepted. We are no longer defined merely as Gaelic, rural, nationalist and Catholic. Nevertheless, a newcomer would see a coherent culture and a strong vibrant one at that. All I'm saying is that integration especially in Ireland will eliminate multiculturalism. To be blunt, the new Irish may be black or Islamic but if they attend integrated schools and mix with us, they'll be saying "Jaysus" in no time!

I think the subtext of the point I made is that the nature mixes occurring are such that we will not see integration taking place.

Jackie laughlin

Corinthian,
May I suggest that you take people at face value rather than trying to find fault.

I don't understand your last sentence. Would you oblige by rephrasing.

Dirk Gently

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Corinthian,
May I suggest that you take people at face value rather than trying to find fault.

Suggesting the Corinthian changes his attitude, good luck with that one Jackie. for everything else there's mastercard.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

I don't understand your last sentence. Would you oblige by rephrasing.

I think what he's saying in the last point is that because there are sufficiently large sub groups of culturally compatible people in the school, it will only serve to discourage integration as the Nigerian and Polish students have a comfort zone within themselves in which they can communicate with each other without having their hand forced to bond and communicate with the Irish kiddies.

The Corinthian

Jackie laughlin wrote:

May I suggest that you take people at face value rather than trying to find fault.

As you did with Minesajackdaniels? Pot. Kettle. Black.

clown bag wrote:

Suggesting the Corinthian changes his attitude, good luck with that one Jackie. for everything else there's mastercard.

You wound me...

Jackie laughlin

Clown Bag,
Thanks. Yes, that would prevent integration. It should be resisted. This goes to the root of this thread. A child should not have to attend a school in which a foreign culture dominates. Immigrants should be accepted into Irish schools and integrated.

Jackie laughlin

I did take his comment at face value.

The Corinthian

Jackie laughlin wrote:

I did take his comment at face value.

Very simplistically, then found fault. Go figure.

Zombrex

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Clown Bag,
Thanks. Yes, that would prevent integration. It should be resisted. This goes to the root of this thread. A child should not have to attend a school in which a foreign culture dominates. Immigrants should be accepted into Irish schools and integrated.

I find it a little hard to believe that all the Nigeria students speak the same non-English language, and they certainly don't speek Polish. There are over 200 known languages in Nigeria, and the offical language is English. I would imagine that they only way they are going to communicate with each other is through English, so that takes care of that "problem".

The Polish issue is different but then, there are a lot less Polish kids.

Miss Fluff

I attended an international school in the Middle East as a kid and it real is quite astounding how quickly kids will pick up another language. As long as all the children are encouraged to integrate these kids should be speaking English to the same level within a matter of a few weeks. They are only 4 so language proficiency wouldn't be at hugely advanced levels anyway. To answer your question, no, you are not being racist and I can understand your concerns but with proper guidance and teaching this hopefully will not be an issue for you or for your little girl.

Tallspoon wrote:

I approached the principal about my concerns and she agreed that it was not a good balance of backgrounds in the class but another school in the town has been rejecting all immigrant children so they have no choice but to accept them.?

On what grounds did the neighbouring school reject immigrant kids?

eth0_

mike65 wrote:

If those demanding kids were freckly, red haired and called Gavin you'd still think the same thing I expect.

Mike.

Bullsh*t. His issue is that the teacher will have to spend a lot more time on the children who don't speak English. In this supposed affulent country, we should have lots of classroom assistants who can work with these children on improving their English, so that the rest of the children don't lose out on 'normal' teaching time.

eth0_

Wicknight wrote:

The Polish issue is different but then, there are a lot less Polish kids.

iirc the Poles make up the largest immigrant group in Ireland...

Karl Hungus

eth0_ wrote:

iirc the Poles make up the largest immigrant group in Ireland...

True, they may be the largest immigrant group, but that doesn't account for how fast the Nigerians are reproducing.

Tha Gopher

I find the Nigerian one a bit odd. The vast majority of them in Ireland speak English amongst themselves and to their kids, being a former British colony, so surely most of their children are already fluent?

Though theres certain schools round here that seem to have alot more immigrant kids than the actual area the school is meant to serve. I know one school in my area that, judging by the crowds I see when the kids are taken on their nature walks or whathaveya, is 40-50% black, but the 25-30 year old corpo estate that the school serves is at most 5% black, its still nearly all Irish. I think for some reason some local authorities have a policy of putting them altogether in the one school, regardless of where they live.

Zombrex

eth0_ wrote:

iirc the Poles make up the largest immigrant group in Ireland...

True, but then there are only 5 Polish kids in the class, which the OP claim don't speak a word of English. THat isn't too bad out of a class of 25

The Corinthian

Tha Gopher wrote:

I find the Nigerian one a bit odd. The vast majority of them in Ireland speak English amongst themselves and to their kids, being a former British colony, so surely most of their children are already fluent?

Depends on the demographics of the Nigerians in Ireland as they may be coming from a limited number of areas in Nigeria and thus speak the same local languages. Either way, English would still not be the first language.

I think for some reason some local authorities have a policy of putting them altogether in the one school, regardless of where they live.

It may also be possible that they are being put together by choice. Ether way it’s a terrible policy IMHO.

Wicknight wrote:

True, but then there are only 5 Polish kids in the class, which the OP claim don't speak a word of English. THat isn't too bad out of a class of 25

20% is a fair sized ghetto.

Zombrex

The Corinthian wrote:

20% is a fair sized ghetto.

?

Do you really think 5 kids who speak polish and (we assume) not a work of English is going to take up so much of the teachers time that the OPs kid and the rest of the children are going to seriously loose out on an education?

dbnavan

I dont think it is racist, maybe a bit niave, considering most Nigerians speak english, very well, I work in a school where some of the students are Nigerian and they seem to get on OK, the school cant refuse applicatants on nationality, at the end of the day its up to you to choose the best place that will educate your child, so no its not racism.

However a generalisation that ....."I could see that some of the Africans were being disruptive." is imo, all 4 year olds are disruptive when piled into a room together, I would be more concerned on how the school intends to manage the language difficulties before pulling the child from the school.

nikolaitr

I think he should worry only for his daughter and not whether he is a racist. In 20 years time, only he will answer for his actions, and he doesn't want to be thinking to himself I made a mistake because I was worried about being branded a racist. If he is asking if he is a racist, he is hardly one then,right?