Stopped by a Gardai in an unmarked car wearing plain clothes

smarty

I was driving home at the weekend at at 3:30 am on Sunday morning, when I noticed a car flying up behind me. It was a 05 D Ford Mondeo, and had flashing lights under the front grill. I assumed it was an unmarked garda car. There were two people in the car.

I pulled over to the side of the road, and a man dressed in casual clothes hopped out of the car and came over to my window. He flashed an id at me and told me he was a garda.

I asked him was there any reason why he had stopped me and he told me in an aggressive manor that "he was a garda and he was entitled to stop anyone he wanted on any public road". He asked me for my licence, looked at it, checked my tax and insurance and then just handed it back to me and left.

I thought he was very rude, and after the garda left, I decided to phone 999 to check whether the car was a legitimate garda vehicle. I told them the story and gave them the registration number and he said it was a legitimate vehicle.

Now, I have no problem with being stopped by a garda, buy what about a girl travelling alone, and an unmarked car, carrying two passengers dressed in civilan clothes, signals then to pull over. Should they stop, or what can they do?

Can anyone confirm that what the garda said about being allowed to stop any "vehicle" on any public road is true and whether they have to be dressed as a garda or driving a garda marked vehicle or anything?

Thanks,
Smarty

Owen

Before anyone else hops on the bandwagon, 999 is for emergency use only. BUT I say fair play for questioning the Gards. They have become so unprofessional in the last few years it's frightening. When I was in NYC, I lost my phone, and went to the NYPD station in Time Square. I couldn't believe how caring, understanding, and courteous they were. On the side of all their vehicles you can see "Courtesy, Professionalism, Respect". It's a service they see themselves providing for the public.

The Gardaí however, are so different. Yes the majority provide an excellent service we cannot do without, and they have the best intentions in the help they provide. Then there's the minority. Rude, arrogant, and on power trips. FWIW, I'm not someone who's regularly stopped by Gardaí, nor someone who would give them an excuse to be rude if I were to be stopped, but I hear enough stories, and read enough posts.

YeAh!

You are entitled to make a complaint if you feel you have been unfarily treated here...

smarty

ned78 wrote:

Before anyone else hops on the bandwagon, 999 is for emergency use only.

Thanks for that info. Do you know who I can contact in this situation?

smarty

YeAh! wrote:

You are entitled to make a complaint if you feel you have been unfarily treated here...

I don't really want to make a complaint, I am just trying to figure out if anyone else has come across a situation like this, and how they would respond to it.

It was a bit of a shock for me. I have never been pulled over before, the fact that he came running towards my car in plain clothes, after the flashing lights, was a bit scary.

YeAh!

In this situation you would still contact the Garda Síochana Complaints Board on (01) 872 8666. They will be able to tell you if this is standard practise. It does sound really dodgy...."we can stop who we like", you know!

smarty

YeAh! wrote:

In this situation you would still contact the Garda Síochana Complaints Board on (01) 872 8666. They will be able to tell you if this is standard practise. It does sound really dodgy...."we can stop who we like", you know!

It was really odd. He seemed to on some sort of power trip and he didn't seem too impressed when I asked him why I was pulled over.

I will give them a call tomorrow to see. Thanks.

Owen

There is also a 'loophole' that if you don't believe this is a genuine Gardaí car/checkpoint, that you can ignore it, PROVIDED you ring a Garda Station, or visit one ASAP and present yourself and your car. I could have the technicalities on this one wrong, but I'm not a million miles out.

Either way Smarty, I'd complain.

Eoin

If they were plain clothes, would they normally stop someone to check their tax - or even for more serious traffic offences? Perhaps your car matched the description of one they suspected of being involved in something serious and were checking it out...

Can anyone confirm that what the garda said about being allowed to stop any "vehicle" on any public road is true and whether they have to be dressed as a garda or driving a garda marked vehicle or anything?

I would be shocked if the Gardai didn't have this power - they would be pretty powerless to stop anyone of any traffic offence if not.

smarty

eoin_s wrote:

Perhaps your car matched the description of one they suspected of being involved in something serious and were checking it out...

My car is a smart roadster with company logos stuck on it, so I doubt this is the case!

gillmc

I had a similar experience about 6 months ago, unmarked car pulled me in, in the very centre of a town during rush hour. One of the guys came up opened the drivers door even though i had opened the window and snatched the keys from the ignition. I had my had on the door at the time he pulled it open and he shouted at me to get my hand of the door or he would break it. Both him and his partner proceeded to search my car without giving me an explanation. Not surprisingly they found nothing before throwing the keys back at me and growling for me to move the car immediately as I was blocking traffic. I was in shock and went immediately to the local station to complain about this behavour. The female Garda contacted the 2 thugs by radio as I heard her and then came back to me and told me she couldnt take my complaint as she couldnt find the proper forms, I told her id be happy with her taking a statement from me and fill in the appropriate form when she found it, she made all sorts of excuses not to take my complaint. Then the other 2 thugs arrived back and were even more aggressive than 20 mins earlier, they said who did i think i was to complain about them etc They told me to get my car out of the public car park or they would impound it with a fine for parking illegally etc. I headed off rather than be arrested and the matter has been taken up with my solicitor. I sent a complaint through my solicitor to the "independent" complaints department who wrote back and said that i had no complaint and it is being appealed at present. I had to inform my employer as i drive a company car and he is not happy with me he thinks i must have done something. This was my first conatct ever with Gardai in my life and it was terrifying, these guys have a most difficult job but sadly many have lost the plot.

Lex Luthor

3.30am...and you stopped for an unmarked car just cos it had flashing lights in the grill and they were in plain clothes?

You're mad mate....I'd have kept going until I was home...

The only time I'd ever stop for an unmarked car would be in daylight and if I wasn't on my own.

spurious

I wouldn't have stopped.
They could have been anyone.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

smarty wrote:

I asked him was there any reason why he had stopped me and he told me in an aggressive manor that "he was a garda and he was entitled to stop anyone he wanted on any public road". He asked me for my licence, looked at it, checked my tax and insurance and then just handed it back to me and left.

i didn't know they were allow to do this, but i suppose that's besides the point, if they are allowed or not it doesn't really matter...
if the want to do it they will...

they are only paid to enforce the law, not obey it.

and how far do you really think this will go... it your word against his...and probably the 4 other garda witnesses he had in the car at the time

Henry Ford III

gillmc wrote:

I had a similar experience about 6 months ago, unmarked car pulled me in, in the very centre of a town during rush hour. One of the guys came up opened the drivers door even though i had opened the window and snatched the keys from the ignition. I had my had on the door at the time he pulled it open and he shouted at me to get my hand of the door or he would break it. Both him and his partner proceeded to search my car without giving me an explanation. Not surprisingly they found nothing before throwing the keys back at me and growling for me to move the car immediately as I was blocking traffic. I was in shock and went immediately to the local station to complain about this behavour. The female Garda contacted the 2 thugs by radio as I heard her and then came back to me and told me she couldnt take my complaint as she couldnt find the proper forms, I told her id be happy with her taking a statement from me and fill in the appropriate form when she found it, she made all sorts of excuses not to take my complaint. Then the other 2 thugs arrived back and were even more aggressive than 20 mins earlier, they said who did i think i was to complain about them etc They told me to get my car out of the public car park or they would impound it with a fine for parking illegally etc. I headed off rather than be arrested and the matter has been taken up with my solicitor. I sent a complaint through my solicitor to the "independent" complaints department who wrote back and said that i had no complaint and it is being appealed at present. I had to inform my employer as i drive a company car and he is not happy with me he thinks i must have done something. This was my first conatct ever with Gardai in my life and it was terrifying, these guys have a most difficult job but sadly many have lost the plot.

Wow that's plain scary.

tabatha

these stories are scary! lets say i "know" some people in the garda and the stories i am hearing lately would make your hair curl! drink driving is a regular occurance, drugs, robbery, bullying....the list is endless

Wing Walker

Smarty and Gillmc, I feel for you both. Something similar happen to me but thankfully they didn't seem to be as agressive as your guys. Unmarked car, quick flash of the badge and you're lost. I'll know to head straight to the nearest cop shop next time. They can talk to me there if they want!

"Who polices the police" I suppose comes to mind. There's absolutely no recourse for people at the moment and I can't really see that changing in the future. Maybe it's the wrong attitude to have, and I know that there are good cops out there, but I'm afraid that I really don't trust our police force.

Keano

Seems to me that some plain clothes officers have big ego's. About a year and half ago a couple of friends of mine were walking to a party with a bag of cans. It was about 2.30 am and they were approached by 2 males who then said they were guards and that they were searching them under the drug act of whatever year they use! But anyway my mate said hang on. Can I see both your id's first and then you can search me. what was the result? the search was done quickly. and off all parties went. The 2 officers reaction had changed completely once they were asked for id. Their power trip was ruined!!

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

A little off topic, but when you make a 999 call, are you speaking to some randomer or a Garda?

Reason I ask is because I recently tried to report a drunk driver (who creamed into a set of traffic lights I was standing beside) and all I got was a torrent of abuse. I wanted to make a complaint about the ignorant muppet but he refused to give me his name.

ambrose :cool:

johnnyrotten

kingambrose wrote:

A little off topic, but when you make a 999 call, are you speaking to some randomer or a Garda?

Reason I ask is because I recently tried to report a drunk driver (who creamed into a set of traffic lights I was standing beside) and all I got was a torrent of abuse. I wanted to make a complaint about the ignorant muppet but he refused to give me his name.

ambrose :cool:

When you make a 999/112 call you are through to an eircom operator first. Then you ask for the emergency service required. When you ask for the Gardai you are put through to a Garda working in the Garda control.

Off the topic - when you ring 999/112 from a mobile phone and you ask for Garda/Fire/Amb etc state what part of the country you are calling from

EX: Gardai please for Dublin

or

Ambulance please for Wicklow

This will speed up the process

Kimbot

I had an unmarked pull up beside me at the bottom of my road just before christmas!! I was sitting in my car waiting for one of my mates cos there was no parking outside my house we were leaving his car there and heading off. Three gardai jump out of the car come over to me in the drivers seat, tells me to give him the keys before he breaks me up!! Then my passenger who was sitting doing a sudoko puzzle was told to get out of the car before the other 2 dragged him out of it!! I asked the garda what he was doing and he told me to shut up, so I said to him where is your ID, flashed his ID and I askedd for all their ID's and reluctantly they showed them!! I asked why I got this hassle and they told me they had seen me "smoking gear". I said well search away so they done a search of my car and found nothing at all. But when they went throught the bin in my car there was a bottle of water in it and the opened the lid and spilt it all over my car!!

At the end of the day as far as they are concerned they are in the right!! Needless to say one of my mam's best friends is a detective in the drugs unit and they were sorted out pretty quickly!!

_Kaiser_

Funnily enough when I raised the point about the Gardai needing to be policed themselves (by an effective independent body) recently, I just got loads of "The Gardai are grand. I've never had a problem, it must be you!" type responses (well ok, mainly from Big Nelly :rolleyes:)

Examples like those in this thread though serve to highlight just how dangerous it is to have an unprofessional, amateur force without any independent oversight roaming our streets.

For balance: yes there are some decent Gardai out there, but unfortunately their voices appear to be being lost among the torrent of abuse, arrogance and abuses of power of a growing number of their colleagues :mad:

5500

Lex Luthor wrote:

3.30am...and you stopped for an unmarked car just cos it had flashing lights in the grill and they were in plain clothes?

You're mad mate....I'd have kept going until I was home...

What would the consequence be by doing this?I presume they would call for back up as you were failing to stop,id worry about what would happen when you did eventually stop.

Are they going to listen to a "you could have been anyone in that car" story or literally pull you from the car and arrest you no questions asked

Wing Walker

jonny24ie wrote:

I had an unmarked pull up beside me at the bottom of my road just before christmas!! I was sitting in my car waiting for one of my mates cos there was no parking outside my house we were leaving his car there and heading off. Three gardai jump out of the car come over to me in the drivers seat, tells me to give him the keys before he breaks me up!! Then my passenger who was sitting doing a sudoko puzzle was told to get out of the car before the other 2 dragged him out of it!! I asked the garda what he was doing and he told me to shut up, so I said to him where is your ID, flashed his ID and I askedd for all their ID's and reluctantly they showed them!! I asked why I got this hassle and they told me they had seen me "smoking gear". I said well search away so they done a search of my car and found nothing at all. But when they went throught the bin in my car there was a bottle of water in it and the opened the lid and spilt it all over my car!!

At the end of the day as far as they are concerned they are in the right!! Needless to say one of my mam's best friends is a detective in the drugs unit and they were sorted out pretty quickly!!

Is this seriously the type of ****e that's going on out there with some cops???

So if we have a friend of a friend who's in the cops you're okay, they'll be sorted out? If not, then nothing will ever happen to these guys? What a complete joke!!!

_Kaiser_

Wing Walker wrote:

Is this seriously the type of ****e that's going on out there with some cops???

So if we have a friend of a friend who's in the cops you're okay, they'll be sorted out? If not, then nothing will ever happen to these guys? What a complete joke!!!

It's like everything else in this country.. it's all about who you know!

Henry Ford III

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Funnily enough when I raised the point about the Gardai needing to be policed themselves (by an effective independent body) recently, I just got loads of "The Gardai are grand. I've never had a problem, it must be you!" type responses (well ok, mainly from Big Nelly :rolleyes:)

Examples like those in this thread though serve to highlight just how dangerous it is to have an unprofessional, amateur force without any independent oversight roaming our streets.

For balance: yes there are some decent Gardai out there, but unfortunately their voices appear to be being lost among the torrent of abuse, arrogance and abuses of power of a growing number of their colleagues :mad:

Anyone who complains risks setting themselves up as a future target too.

_Kaiser_

Henry Ford III wrote:

Anyone who complains risks setting themselves up as a future target too.

Also true, and one which I (well my mam) has personal experience of

Wing Walker

Henry Ford III wrote:

Anyone who complains risks setting themselves up as a future target too.

Do you know, that's the way I've felt for the last few years. I wonder how true it is.

Kaiser has already said that his family's had experience of it. Was it hassle from the same cop that the complaint was made against?

dahamsta

Obviously the Gardaí need to act like this to prevent terrism, therefore those of you that were stopped must look or act like terrists, and the Gardaí were perfectly entitled to harrass you. Please change your race, dress or mannerisms accordingly.

adam

_Kaiser_

Wing Walker wrote:

Do you know, that's the way I've felt for the last few years. I wonder how true it is.

Kaiser has already said that his family's had experience of it. Was it hassle from the same cop that the complaint was made against?

A complaint was originally raised years ago against two detectives from Coolock station regarding their refusal to sieze stolen goods from one of their informants (in this case a pedigree Rottweiler worth several hundred pounds at the time). One of these 2 detectives was later implicated in a case where a local scumbag was bringing drugs in through the airport.

My mother happened to see the dog with the informant in question several months after it was stolen from the kitchen one night (they broke in and left TV, VCR, money etc) and went to the station. The two detective in question insisted that my mother "wouldn't want" the dog back and she should "let him keep her".

It was only because my grandfather personally knew the then Minister for Justice that they were made lift the dog, but their informant was never charged with ANYTHING - not even receiving stolen property!

Since then they have been provided with video, audio and written statements relating to a campaign of harassment against my mother from some of the neighbours and in none of these cases has anyone even been questioned, never mind charged.

I've linked to some of these examples in another thread, but the situation has been raised with Dublin City Council and local politicans and featured in the papers, on RTE's PrimeTime and the radio, all to no avail.

redmosquito

I dont trust any gardai, ive had a couple of bad experiences with them, in each case the young gardai acting thick ignorant. In one case I was grabbed in a headlock, thrown to the ground and dragged off for drinking in public.
The garda said he seen that I had a can in my back pocket and that was enough to say I was breaking the law. When as a matter of fact, all I had on me was, wait for it, a sandwhich!!! I repeatedely told him this, with him telling me to shut up, that I was drunk, when in fact I hadnt been drinking at all on the evening it happened!
It wasnt till I complained to a senior garda later that I was told to go away, to forget about it, there would be nothing else happening with it.

At the end of the day, as far as im concerned, most of the new, young gardai are ignorant ****, who are on a pure power trip and think because of the badge they carry, that they are above the law!

Henry Ford III

redmosquito wrote:

I dont trust any gardai, ive had a couple of bad experiences with them, in each case the young gardai acting thick ignorant. In one case I was grabbed in a headlock, thrown to the ground and dragged off for drinking in public.
The garda said he seen that I had a can in my back pocket and that was enough to say I was breaking the law. When as a matter of fact, all I had on me was, wait for it, a sandwhich!!! I repeatedely told him this, with him telling me to shut up, that I was drunk, when in fact I hadnt been drinking at all on the evening it happened!
It wasnt till I complained to a senior garda later that I was told to go away, to forget about it, there would be nothing else happening with it.

At the end of the day, as far as im concerned, most of the new, young gardai are ignorant ****, who are on a pure power trip and think because of the badge they carry, that they are above the law!

If you think it's bad now just wait until the "have a go" volunteers get on the streets :mad:

Kimbot

Wing Walker wrote:

Is this seriously the type of ****e that's going on out there with some cops???

So if we have a friend of a friend who's in the cops you're okay, they'll be sorted out? If not, then nothing will ever happen to these guys? What a complete joke!!!

Well the only reason it got sorted like that was because I rang her after they made a mess in my car and if neighbours saw me be pulled by the "Drug Squad" out of my car on my road she would have found out and thought I was dealing or something!! She was with her friend at the time and he was due to start work an hour or two later, he just made an enquiry as to who it was that pulled me, why they thought i was "smoking gear" etc.....
As far as I know they were not suppose to be around my area at all so it was all a bit dodgy so he told the boss about it!!

smarty

This morning I phoned the Garda complaints board to see if this was "normal procedure". The guy I spoke to said it sounded a bit odd, and told me to call the Garda Press Office. I called them, and they put me through to the Legal Department. The man in the Legal Department said that he was there to assist Gardai rather than the public, but said he would try to help me.

He also found it a bit strange that they would stop me without any reason, and said that I would be within my rights to drive to a well lit up area, but not drive to a Garda station.

I then decided to check it out with my local Garda station. I spoke to a Garda there, and he told me that I must stop when a Garda tells me to, or I would get into a lot of trouble. I told him that the guys were not in uniform and in an unmarked car and he asked me did they have a light in the grill or the dashboard. I told him they did, and then he told me that it must have been a garda car, as you can't just buy them anywhere... (not sure about that. I am sure a search on Google would beg to differ, but I didn't bother saying that to him).

He then told me that they would also have a siren, so if you failed to stop based on the flashing light, then they would turn on the siren.

He also told me that it is a legal requirement to carry your license (which I knew), so that could have been the reason that they stopped me, to check if I was carrying my license. Surely this can't be a valid reason to pull someone over.

I think if it happened again, I would wait until they turn on the siren, which means I may have to spend a bit of time explaining why I didn't stop based on the flashing lights, but at least it would make me feet a little safer.

In my opinion it is fine to stop someone at a random checkpoint, but I am still a bit concerned about the gardai pulling people over without any suspicion.

smarty

Ken Shabby wrote:

Obviously the Gardaí need to act like this to prevent terrism, therefore those of you that were stopped must look or act like terrists, and the Gardaí were perfectly entitled to harrass you. Please change your race, dress or mannerisms accordingly.

adam

Maybe we could get "Team America - World Police" over on secondment to assist the Gardai.

_Kaiser_

smarty wrote:

The guy I spoke to said it sounded a bit odd, and told me to call the Garda Press Office. I called them, and they put me through to the Legal Department. The man in the Legal Department said that he was there to assist Gardai rather than the public, but said he would try to help me.

Fair play to the guy for this, but look at the sequence of events. The first guy doesn't know so put you through to the Press Office (why??). They don't know so you get a third guy who makes a "best guess." - don't ANY of these people know the position as defined in the law? This is in fact part of the problem - it's all opinion and it varies wildly depending on who you talk to.

I then decided to check it out with my local Garda station. I spoke to a Garda there, and he told me that I must stop when a Garda tells me to, or I would get into a lot of trouble. I told him that the guys were not in uniform and in an unmarked car and he asked me did they have a light in the grill or the dashboard. I told him they did, and then he told me that it must have been a garda car, as you can't just buy them anywhere... (not sure about that. I am sure a search on Google would beg to differ, but I didn't bother saying that to him).

Once again you don't get a definitive answer, merely another opinion from a guy who's falling back on the catch-all "you must stop if signalled to do so" script he was taught in Templemore, plainly obvious by his comment on the availability of the lights.

He also told me that it is a legal requirement to carry your license (which I knew), so that could have been the reason that they stopped me, to check if I was carrying my license. Surely this can't be a valid reason to pull someone over.

Again it's a wild guess on his part, and surely the Gardai who stopped you should have (or been required to) tell you WHY they had pulled you over and under what relevant legislation they were empowered to do so - "I can do it cause I'm a Garda" doesn't count incidentially!

but I am still a bit concerned about the gardai pulling people over without any suspicion.

You and me both, but after all those calls you're still no clearer on why these guys pulled you over and what entitled them to do so. I bet there wasn't a report filed either.

As I said, typically unprofessional and amateur at all levels, as this clearly indicates.

mukki

good idea to wait for the siren, if it was 2 huars trying to steal your car, they wouldnt want to make attract attention to themselves

seamus

smarty wrote:

I told him they did, and then he told me that it must have been a garda car, as you can't just buy them anywhere... (not sure about that. I am sure a search on Google would beg to differ, but I didn't bother saying that to him).

Try D.I.D. electrical. Selling them for a tenner the last time I was in there :rolleyes:

I have no problem with Gardai randomly pulling people over, but being abusive about it is completely uncalled for. Your best bet if pulled over is to turn off your engine, remove your keys and put them in your pocket. Aside from guaranteeing that you retain control of your vehicle, the Garda is less likely to think you're going to do a runner. The same is true for motorcycles - if pulled over, switch off your engine, and remove your helmet and gloves.

If a car is just a plain car with flashing lights and sirens, and not obviously Gardai inside the vehicle, then I would seriously advise not pulling in unless you get into a large, well-lit area or a Garda station, no matter how much noise the car makes or how it drives. This is especially true if you are a woman on your own.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Are you allowed record any conversations with the Gardai? I don't usually go out in the car without my mobile phone and wouldn't mind having a record of anything that is said. Would I have to inform them that I'm recording the conversation?

ambrose :cool:

Kimbot

kingambrose wrote:

Are you allowed record any conversations with the Gardai? I don't usually go out in the car without my mobile phone and wouldn't mind having a record of anything that is said. Would I have to inform them that I'm recording the conversation?

ambrose :cool:

IF it was to be used in court then you would have to inform them they were being recorded!! But they would just get you to stop recording then go at you again!!

familyguy

smarty wrote:

he asked me did they have a light in the grill or the dashboard. I told him they did, and then he told me that it must have been a garda car, as you can't just buy them anywhere...

Have a look here. Same brand the Gards use too

_Kaiser_

kingambrose wrote:

Are you allowed record any conversations with the Gardai? I don't usually go out in the car without my mobile phone and wouldn't mind having a record of anything that is said. Would I have to inform them that I'm recording the conversation?

ambrose :cool:

Yes you have to make them aware they're being recorded. Every call to the station I mentioned above is recorded and every Garda that calls to the door has his/her name, rank and number taken (though it's not unknown for them to refuse to give their names/have no number visible).

If you do that though, the chances are they won't want to continue the "debate" any further, plus you run the risk of them developing a "who the hell do you think you are?" attitude - if not then and there, then later on (as Henry Ford alluded to above).

Torak

seamus wrote:

If a car is just a plain car with flashing lights and sirens, and not obviously Gardai inside the vehicle, then I would seriously advise not pulling in unless you get into a large, well-lit area or a Garda station, no matter how much noise the car makes or how it drives. This is especially true if you are a woman on your own.

Guns don't discriminate between women and men. The day when you were safer by virtue of your gender is long gone.

Edited for context..

RuggieBear

Torak wrote:

Guns don't discriminate between women and men. The day when you were safer by virtue of your gender is long gone.

huh?

Torak

RuggieBear wrote:

huh?

Why is it safer to stop if you are a man than a woman?

edited above for context..

RuggieBear

sexual attacks tend to be more of an issue for women than men

Henry Ford III

Men generally are better able to meet a challenge physically if need be.

Torak

Henry Ford III wrote:

Men generally are better able to meet a challenge physically if need be.

Thats a leftover of our ego imho. The chances of you actually being safer are very low.

seamus

Torak wrote:

Why is it safer to stop if you are a man than a woman?

There are more predators who travel around with the specific intention of assaulting a woman. Put simply, a woman is more likely to be the target of a planned attack, such as pulling cars over. Men are more likely to be victims of random violence, such as being attacked on a dark road by a group of scumbags. Pulling cars over is an action of intent.

You'll also find that those with guns usually intend to do something more worthwhile with them than stop people in cars in the middle of the night.

Torak

RuggieBear wrote:

sexual attacks tend to be more of an issue for women than men

True, but you are making an assumption about why a crime of that nature would be committed.

You are safer in one category of crime.

Henry Ford III

Dunno about that. One on one if it came to it, I'd fancy my chances against most women