4x4 drivers 'more likely to flout law'

Mickk

colm_mcm wrote:

My point is that the government charging €50 VRT on commercial vehicles doesn't encourage people to go out and buy SUV's. Given that the study was carried out in the UK, where commercial 4X4's aren't that common, I can't really see where you're coming from.

Yes it does, you do realise that a commercial is just a class the goverment puts the vehicle in, its the exact same vehicle as a private minus the back seats? You can go to england, buy a private x5, take out the backs seats and show it to customs and pay 50 euro for vrt and 250 for tax. Also a percentage put the back seats back in after registering it.

You talk as if they are completely different vehicles, same 4x4 just a loophole in the irish law classes it differently. Also the study took pictures from a bridge or somewhere, do you really think they checked to see if the jeeps has back seats or not?

pburns

junkyard wrote:

...lets ban them or make it uncool or politically incorrect to drive anything bigger.
If human kind didn't progress we'd all still be living in caves.

In what way or how is driving a big lump of SUV 'progress' ?!?

junkyard wrote:

...I suppose your next argument is to make cars smaller as they would be lighter on fuel, wouldn't hurt people as much if they crash into them etc....

Well, yeah actually!! Not making cars smaller in terms of road footprint, but the use of lighter materials, more compact electronics etc. Make cars strucurally stronger but also lighter... This benefits economy, performance, handling and yes, ultimitely safety.

I appreciate that some road vehicles will always be lighter/heavier but that's not the point. A van, truck or bus has a function on our roads. The only functional use most SUVs have is to massage the ego of it's driver or mount a particularly nasty kerb outside a school in D4.

And no, I'm not a jealous tree-hugger. Actually, I drive a 4x4 very occasionally - an oldish Pajero - but this is a farm workhorse. Friends of mine who work in construction/agriculture have commercial 4x4s. But Merc MLs, Jeeps, X5s...not to mention f***** Hummers...

maidhc

Mickk wrote:

You can go to england, buy a private x5, take out the backs seats and show it to customs and pay 50 euro for vrt and 250 for tax. Also a percentage put the back seats back in after registering it.

You only get away with breaking the law for so long. As someone who was a FF politician in the 80's for confirmation.

Your comments do give some credence to the factual accuracy of the suvey.

Interestingly for those who feel SUVs are safer in a crash, it should be noted that they are only safer if you crash into a smaller vehicle. If you hit a wall or a tree the extra mass of the SUV will cancel out the stronger body, thus causing the structure to deform just as badly as a small car. There is also research proving this.

Anan1

Mickk wrote:

I drive a 6l petrol hummer that gets 8 miles to the gallon, I honestly think I would sell it only for the sheer pleasure I get from the looks of utter contempt I get from certain cyclists and individuals with dreadlocks. It really makes my day, I hope I see you one day anan1

Funny you should say that, I actually had a run-in with a Hummer in Leopardstown a few months ago. Best bit was, I was driving a Beetle turbo at the time, flower vase on the dash etc etc. Bit slow, aren't they?;)

Rovi

Mickk wrote:

Yes it does, you do realise that a commercial is just a class the goverment puts the vehicle in, its the exact same vehicle as a private minus the back seats? You can go to england, buy a private x5, take out the backs seats ...

AFAIK, these days you'll also be required to black out the rear side windows and weld up the rear seatbelt mounts.

colm_mcm

Mickk

You are saying that it's the (IRISH) government's fault that there are so many SUV's on the road due to the VRT loophole for commercials.

Surely then, they are doing their bit by charging huge amounts of VRT on passenger SUV's, and then effectively, for every one person who buys a commercial jeep because it is relatively affordable, the increased VRT on passenger models puts an SUV out of reach for another person.

The fact commercial off roaders don't have back seats means that they will never be used as family cars. Any commercials I've sold are bought for work.
When you tax a jeep as a commercial, you must sign a decleration saying that you will be using the vehicle for purely business purposes.

How then can you say that the VRT exemption on commercial jeeps encourages the use of SUV's

Mickk

maidhc wrote:

You only get away with breaking the law for so long. As someone who was a FF politician in the 80's for confirmation.

Tell that to the monk (who also happens to drive a hummer:D )

Mickk

Anan1 wrote:

Funny you should say that, I actually had a run-in with a Hummer in Leopardstown a few months ago. Best bit was, I was driving a Beetle turbo at the time, flower vase on the dash etc etc. Bit slow, aren't they?;)

6litre petrol v8 with 325 bhp, I would say it is more like he didn't want to waste the petrol on you...

I dont think I've gone over 40 miles an hour often in mine, I have a cbr400, a volvo 850 T5, and a v6 galant if I want to race.

Mickk

colm_mcm wrote:

Mickk

You are saying that it's the (IRISH) government's fault that there are so many SUV's on the road due to the VRT loophole for commercials.

Surely then, they are doing their bit by charging huge amounts of VRT on passenger SUV's, and then effectively, for every one person who buys a commercial jeep because it is relatively affordable, the increased VRT on passenger models puts an SUV out of reach for another person.

The fact commercial off roaders don't have back seats means that they will never be used as family cars. Any commercials I've sold are bought for work.
When you tax a jeep as a commercial, you must sign a decleration saying that you will be using the vehicle for purely business purposes.

How then can you say that the VRT exemption on commercial jeeps encourages the use of SUV's

I really think that a huge percentage of the 4x4's on the road are due to this loophole and I think it is their fault, not for allowing it, but for having vrt in the first place. I would not have bought a hummer if it were not for the classification it falls into over here because of the extortionate vrt rates on everything else. It is illegal what they do by having vrt and shouldn't be allowed. I will take any chance I get to dodge it and stick two fingers up right at them while doing so.

colm_mcm

Pretty much all the people who buy Land Cruisers from me are VAT registered, this would imply that they have businesses and are using them as commercial vehicles. nothing wrong with that

maidhc

Mickk wrote:

I really think that a huge percentage of the 4x4's on the road are due to this loophole and I think it is their fault, not for allowing it, but for having vrt in the first place. I would not have bought a hummer if it were not for the classification it falls into over here because of the extortionate vrt rates on everything else. It is illegal what they do by having vrt and shouldn't be allowed. I will take any chance I get to dodge it and stick two fingers up right at them while doing so.

But you just got a glorified van for your trouble that can legally carry less passeners than a Punto and that drives and costs as much run as a HGV. Way to go.

As colm said almost everyone who buys a commercial 4x4 needs one as a workhorse to run their business. Normally these are astute business people who would rather the low running costs of a berligo or transit, but need a 4x4 for a variety of reasons.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

colm_mcm wrote:

The fact commercial off roaders don't have back seats means that they will never be used as family cars. s

not all...
my last two jeeps had back seats and i was still able to tax them commercially.
loop hole that the government cant or wont close. i did sign the declaration, but as i have my own company... every trip i make can be for business.:D
and asking a garda friend of mine, they don't enforce the law on this.

Mickk

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

not all...
my last two jeeps had back seats and i was still able to tax them commercially.
loop hole that the government cant or wont close. i did sign the declaration, but as i have my own company... every trip i make can be for business.:D
and asking a garda friend of mine, they don't enforce the law on this.

True but word of warning you wana be careful, the garda dont care but have you ever been through a customs checkpoint? They do and they will take it off you there and then and fine you through the nose. They often have them in the nice areas, I've seen them in Sandyford and Killiney. Mostly they are looking for yellow reg irish drivers. Last year I went through two both on a sunday afternoon. http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/motoring/2005/0608/4055608995MOT08IMPOUNDED.html

They dont look like they take any **** either, no uniformed garda just plain clothes customs all with guns!

Mickk

maidhc wrote:

But you just got a glorified van for your trouble that can legally carry less passeners than a Punto and that drives and costs as much run as a HGV. Way to go.

As colm said almost everyone who buys a commercial 4x4 needs one as a workhorse to run their business. Normally these are astute business people who would rather the low running costs of a berligo or transit, but need a 4x4 for a variety of reasons.

If you read my post I said you can buy an x5 and take the seats out and register it. The reason you have to take the seats out is that it is less than 3.5tonnes. Any vehicle over 3.5tonnes (hummer 3.8tonnes;) ) with a bed a certain percentage of the wheelbase can have as many seats as you want.

Also colm I wouldn't doubt that most people who buy land cruisers want them as work horses, but do you really believe that the people buying and changing to commercial bmw x5's, porsche cayennes, vw touregs, range rover sports, merc ml's buy them because they are more suited to their business needs than a transit?

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

Mickk wrote:

True but word of warning you wana be careful, the garda dont care but have you ever been through a customs checkpoint? They do and they will take it off you there and then and fine you through the nose. They often have them in the nice areas, I've seen them in Sandyford and Killiney. Mostly they are looking for yellow reg irish drivers. Last year I went through two both on a sunday afternoon. http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/motoring/2005/0608/4055608995MOT08IMPOUNDED.html

They dont look like they take any **** either, no uniformed garda just plain clothes customs all with guns!

i was stopped by them and dipped. they asked all the relevant questions and of course i gave the relevant answers, and had my two kids in the back as well.
the big problem for them is, i run my own business so every trip i do in my 4X4 is business related.... if ya know what i mean. and it costs them to much to bring me to court and prove that my trip isn't business related. they are only looking company vans/4x4 that have a clear 9 to 5 or 5 day a week policy easy conviction...
any bit of complication they don't want to know... well that's my experience.

Mickk

Ah I think you just got the relevent form and taxed your vehicle for business purposes, you didn't evade vrt by bringing it in as a commercial and then putting the seats back in... Am I right?
If you had chances are they would have taken it off you there and then and left you and your kids by the side of the road.
What you did is perfectly legal and can be done on estates and hatchbacks not just jeeps.
See http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054930560&referrerid=59211&highlight=commercial+tax

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

Mickk wrote:

Ah I think you just got the relevent form and taxed your vehicle for business purposes, you didn't evade vrt by bringing it in as a commercial and then putting the seats back in... Am I right?
If you had chances are they would have taken it off you there and then and left you and your kids by the side of the road.
What you did is perfectly legal and can be done on estates and hatchbacks not just jeeps.
See http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054930560&referrerid=59211&highlight=commercial+tax

mabye so,
no i didn't bring it from abroad. bought it from the showroom floor, ( well my company did ). got my VAT back for it, no NCT just a DOE. and road tax that as cheap as chips. oh and vat back for all the diesel i burn... great country

dts

So you can import an SUV for nothing as long as it has 2 seats and blacked out windows and its only 250euro instead of the 720 I am paying at the moment?
Hows that work then?

Mickk

Yea it can be, I might be able to claim the vat off my petrol as a business expense! They will try and rip you off but if you know the law you can legally duck and dive and really take the piss. I have just got a motor traders policy so soon as I get a rates bill I can buy whatever I want and drive them on garage plates without ever paying vrt:D
I really want a 70 mustang fastback like this: Sema Gambler

50 euro vrt and 42 tax, 450bhp new EVERYTHING barr the 36yo chassis!

Mickk

dts wrote:

So you can import an SUV for nothing as long as it has 2 seats and blacked out windows and its only 250euro instead of the 720 I am paying at the moment?
Hows that work then?

Yea 50 euro vrt and 250 tax. How it works is you go and show your local vrt office your converted suv and they ask you for 50 euro, you get a reg number and go into the tax office and they ask you for 250 euro and they give you a years tax! You do need to doe it every year tho instead of nct every two but its very simple to do.

colm_mcm

a flat loadbay is another requirement.

dermot_sheehan

From anecdotal evidence here, it appears the original article was right, SUV drivers are more likely to break the law.

The problem most people have with them is they are a classic example of fashion over common sense. They are statistically less safe due to their higher centre of gravity and therefore less stability, and they endanger other road users due to their high mass. Other vehicles have these characteristics (buses/trucks), but they do so by necessity. They also use a resource which I think everyone agrees is running out and efforts should be amde to conserve. They reflect selfish values and that's why they are despised.


Also drivers of trucks or buses have to get a C class or D class licence and undergo special training, SUV drivers shouldif their vehicle weighs more then 3,500kg but I wonder how many are driving around unlicenced and therefore uninsured?

colm_mcm

If the resourse which you think "everyone agrees is running out and efforts should be amde to conserve" is petrol or diesel, then there are other types of cars you can take pot-shots at instead, most diesel SUV's will do 40mpg. whereas many large saloon cars do little over 20.

dermot_sheehan

colm_mcm wrote:

If the resourse which you think "everyone agrees is running out and efforts should be amde to conserve" is petrol or diesel, then there are other types of cars you can take pot-shots at instead, most diesel SUV's will do 40mpg. whereas many large saloon cars do little over 20.

Ok, I'll take pot shots at them too, the sale and use of ineffecient saloon cars should be discouraged too since there's only so much black stuff left in the ground. Its easy however to regard a SUV as a fuel ineffecient vehicle for simple mass reasons alone, leaving aside an encyclopaedic knowledge of car fuel effeciency figures it's impossible to give the jaundiced you're fecking up the planet stare at them as I cycle pass in rush hour traffic

colm_mcm

Fuel is a global resource. Why not moan at people who use oil for their home heating, or Americans who drive massive gas guzzlers. European SUV's are the least of our worries.

dermot_sheehan

Because oil for heating is a necessity, driving a a multi-ton vehicle around city neighborhoods to birng the kids to school or to get milk at the shops is an exercise in pretentiousness. If there is a hiearchy for uses of oil, heating would be higher in it.

And yes the Americans use a ridiculous amount of oil per person, I never said they didn't, driving SUV's over here though is adopting the same selfish attitude they have. The survery which was the original post in this thread seems to confirm this selfish attitude in road manners. With SUV drivers in the thread stating how they evade tax by declaring vehicles to be commerical, or writing off personal trips as business expeneses seems to confirm this.


And again the question, how many SUV drivers are driving on a B class licence?

maidhc

I think colm's point is that a Rav4 (or the likes) has an identical engine and similar emissions and fuel consumption to an Avensis estate.

Having said that I would rather an Avensis estate unless I needed a 4x4 drivetrain or increased towing capacity as it as a more accomplished car. But each to their own I guess.

colm_mcm

gabhain7 wrote:

Because oil for heating is a necessity, driving a a multi-ton vehicle around city neighborhoods to birng the kids to school or to get milk at the shops is an exercise in pretentiousness. If there is a hiearchy for uses of oil, heating would be higher in it.

And again the question, how many SUV drivers are driving on a B class licence?

It's a lot easier to change from using oil central heating to using electricity than it is to change cars from running on petrol to running on electricity.

The majority of SUV's in ireland don't exceed 1500kg, the B license allows you to drive 3500kg and up to 9 people.

Even a Land Cruiser GX 8 seater weighs under 2000kg and the huge Land Cruiser 4.2 VX weighs 2,500 kg, well within B class license limitations

maidhc

colm_mcm wrote:

It's a lot easier to change from using oil central heating to using electricity

Screw that. Wood pellet is the way of the future.

colm_mcm

maidhc wrote:

Wood pellet is the way of the future.

mmmm hmmm?