Bilbao metro: a style icon which Dublin metro must emulate

Metrobest

Recent discussions have centred on where metro stops will be located, how interchange will be catered for, and the merits and pitfalls of various systems.

I would like to move the discussion along to a new level: the question of what the metro stations themselves will look like, and how design may influence people's decision to use MetroNorth.

One thing luas has proven is that when a system looks sexy, punters flock to it. Witness at Heuston station people ignoring Dublin Bus and crowding onto the beautiful but slow Red Line.

That's one of the key reasons I favour a Tara Street interchange with travelator. I think it will look fantastic and that will raise the profile of public transport in general and entice people out of their cars. It's an interchange you'll actually want to use.

One of Europe's newest metro systems runs in the Basque capital of Bilbao. It is a shining example of how an efficient and beautiful metro system can revolutionise a city, regenerate deprived areas, restore pride in the city.

If metroNorth looks and works even half as well as the Bilbao metro, we'll be laughin'.

Pix attached.

markf909

Looks well, very much like the Washington DC metro stations which are very well designed.
Im sure St Stephens Green station will have a landmark feel to the station.
I think however that uniform functional stations elsewhere including the interchange at Drumcondra would be the order of the day. The main goal is to keep the "theme" of the stations the same.

dudara

I was in Bilbao back in January 2002. We were so impressed by the Metro, it's cleanliness, style and extreme pleasantness. Very cosmopolitan, clean and modern.

John R

It may just be the photos but it looks very dingy. The monotonous grey is just bland, looks more like a 1970s design.

By far the best metro stations built in recent years are the ones on the LU Jubilee line extention, big bright and airy. Although the scale of them would be out of the question for Dublin anything that takes away from the confined underground nature of the stations is a must.

Really though as long as the functionality of the stations is good regarding access and layout the aesthetic design is secondary.

Access wise they are now very poor but the architecture and design details of many of the early London and Paris stations are stunning. Particularly the art deco suburban stations in the north of London.

A single style for all of Dublin's rail operations is important IMO. To the user they should all be clearly identified with each other. At the moment DART is a strong brand and the logo is identifiable. Luas on the other hand has no particular style or branding. The stations are anonymous, unless you know to look for a half-finished construction site it is very easy to miss them altogether.

One identity with a good simple logo that can be prominently displayed at stations and well signposted around the city is the best promotion possible.

Metrobest wrote:

I would like to move the discussion along to a new level:

Metrobest wrote:

That's one of the key reasons I favour a Tara Street interchange with travelator.

Hmm.

bryanw

Just on the subject of style, I really like the idea (even though I've heard nobody else mention it) of putting one of the art-deco style entrances, on the Paris Metro, to one of the stations (preferably Stephen's Green). It would kind of fit in with the whole area...

In Montreal, they have an authentic one (above), which was given to them by RATP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square-Victoria_(Montreal_Metro)

I do like the idea of building stations in a landmark style. It will add a sense of meaning to our metro system other than carting people around. The system itself can be an attraction.

Also, look at the Stockholm Metro, it has some magnificent stations, you can see pictures of them on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_Metro

SeanW

Ehhh ... you don't just build travelators for the sake of it - they're only meant to be used when you need to integrate/connect a station with a slightly further away intergchange/destination.

John R

SeanW wrote:

Ehhh ... you don't just build travelators for the sake of it - they're only meant to be used when you need to integrate/connect a station with a slightly further away intergchange/destination.

Metrobest's wish for a Tara St. travelator has been all but ruled out on practical grounds so now he is trying to argue for it on the grounds that a stylish travelator will have the public entranced like fire to prehistoric man.

Slice

I don't think some naff art nouveau and nostalgic styling should really be applied for a new metro in Dublin - that would be the architectural equivalent of someone in a semi-d house installing greek classical pillars at the entrance to their front door or mock tudor facade - which unfortunately happens all to often in all sorts of suburban neighbourhoods around the country.

I reckon design-wise the metro should adopt a more modular design that can be easily upgraded without too much disruption when being expanded in future - If the London Underground had adopted this approach when it was first being built maybe it wouldn't suffer some of the congestion problems they have at older stops such as Covent Garden or Camden Town.

John R

A single style for all of Dublin's rail operations is important IMO. To the user they should all be clearly identified with each other. At the moment DART is a strong brand and the logo is identifiable. Luas on the other hand has no particular style or branding. The stations are anonymous, unless you know to look for a half-finished construction site it is very easy to miss them altogether.

I think the Luas stops are actually very nicely designed - maybe just not too well sign-posted. Then again, neither of the Luas lines run to the type of areas that would be frequented by tourists anyway, I'd say most people using Luas are regular commuters familiar with the areas they serve. The Luas stop designs are also pretty consistent with the design styles of new bus stops being put up around the place so it does link in. The Luas stops aren't designed to be stations anyway - they're a light rail service so stops as oppose to stations are more appropriate.

The Dart may be well sign posted but most Dart stations are totally drab and alot of Dart platforms are narrower than Luas platforms.

markf909

he is trying to argue for it on the grounds that a stylish travelator will have the public entranced like fire to prehistoric man.

But surely Dublin would be far better off with a stylish 21st Century travelator instead of boring 20th Century vertigal integration at key interchange points

As I said in my first post and others have elaborated on , we need to have a common feel and layout to each metro stop, the RPA have confirmed that the metro will be similar to LUAS only longer, so I cant see the provision of simple and functional stops being a problem.

jjbrien

I suppose Drumcondra could have a GAA theme as Croker is only down the road. Like this station in Toronto which hasa hockey theme


I hope the metro is a functional and as intergatible as the TTC in Toronto
http://uk.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9htdZmptZZEcxkBc6BWBQx./SIG=12unqg868/EXP=1150813993/**http%3a//www.journalism.ryerson.ca/online/ryewire/takeonto/collegeinbody.jpg

monument

Metrobest wrote:

One thing luas has proven is that when a system looks sexy, punters flock to it. Witness at Heuston station people ignoring Dublin Bus and crowding onto the beautiful but slow Red Line.

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry when people around here come out with stuff like this.

I’d argue that while Luas’ “sexiness” helps, it has more to do with the difference in image of rail/tram travel compared with normal bus travel. Bus travel usually only wins where there’s substantial savings and need for such savings.

Rail is usually seen as more reliable (trains can’t be rerouted <yes, I know this can be a minus point>, and trams aren’t seen to interact with traffic as much), less confusing (stations have a ‘landmark’ quality and - compared to DB - stations can’t move), and more comfortable.

Transport21 Fan

jjbrien wrote:

I suppose Drumcondra could have a GAA theme as Croker is only down the road.
http://uk.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9htdZmptZZEcxkBc6BWBQx./SIG=12unqg868/EXP=1150813993/**http%3a//www.journalism.ryerson.ca/online/ryewire/takeonto/collegeinbody.jpg

The reason why a metro station is being built at Drumcondra has nothing to do with the GAA at all.

The Bilboa Metro is seriously sexy and yes that's how we need to promote public transport in Ireland. No more boxy trains and smelly locomotives.

dowlingm

The thing with Bilbao is they went all out when upgrading their city, with landmark buildings and so on. Everything in Ireland (and lots of other places too) is built to a price as priority 1,2,3 (but without cost controls so you end up with ugly but expensive infrastructure)

icdg

John R wrote:

A single style for all of Dublin's rail operations is important IMO. To the user they should all be clearly identified with each other. At the moment DART is a strong brand and the logo is identifiable. Luas on the other hand has no particular style or branding. The stations are anonymous, unless you know to look for a half-finished construction site it is very easy to miss them altogether.

One identity with a good simple logo that can be prominently displayed at stations and well signposted around the city is the best promotion possible.

I agree - I think we need (to paraphrase Transport for London), "A logo for Dublin" - a single logo that can be used, in varying styles, across all of Dublin's transport services. For example take TFL - the TFL (formerly LRT) roundel is easily recognised and used across all TFL services - London Buses, Underground, DLR, and other services. The overground railway companies don't use it, but they have the just-as-equally distingishable BR double-arrow logo.

One option might be to use the original CIE (formerly DUTC) logo - the "winged snail" - but its rather too simular to the TFL one for comfort. Another option could be, if Dublin Bus might give it up as their corporate logo (or perhaps some accomation could be reached), to use the original version of the Dublin Bus castle symbol (as seen on bus stops, not the more recently used falling down castle seen on print material) accross all Dublin transport services. Dublin's Buses (including any future private operators running public bus services) could keep using it in blue, DART/Commuter services could use a green version, Luas a red version, and Metro perhaps another colour. It could be launched together with an integrated ticketing system for all the operators.

peter1892

I don't care what it looks like, I just wish they'd build it

murphaph

icdg wrote:

One option might be to use the original CIE (formerly DUTC) logo - the "winged snail" - but its rather too simular to the TFL one for comfort. Another option could be, if Dublin Bus might give it up as their corporate logo (or perhaps some accomation could be reached), to use the original version of the Dublin Bus castle symbol (as seen on bus stops, not the more recently used falling down castle seen on print material) accross all Dublin transport services. Dublin's Buses (including any future private operators running public bus services) could keep using it in blue, DART/Commuter services could use a green version, Luas a red version, and Metro perhaps another colour. It could be launched together with an integrated ticketing system for all the operators.

I really like the BAC logo but unfortunately it actually reads db stylised as a castle so it's not on to use it as it is. Some castle like logo similar to the Corpo could be used showing all 3 castles. It is the symbol of Dublin so if it could be used it'd be cool. Some TfL like uniform logo should be found, preferably something very simple that is easy to include in one colour on any medium. The corpo's current logo would have been ideal for this.

Metrobest

At the moment DART is a strong brand and the logo is identifiable. Luas on the other hand has no particular style or branding. The stations are anonymous, unless you know to look for a half-finished construction site it is very easy to miss them altogether.

You're losing credibility now, John, claiming that the DART is a piece of beauty and the luas is a tatty tin can. I really think most Dubliners would argue the opposite: the luas has style and a strong "brand" while the DART has peak hour time savings and little more to offer.

We live in an era where perception is everything. The luas looks good so it is good. As the trendy Irish Times Index put it: "luas to Heuston. Takes the sting out of that dreadful train journey you've just experienced."

Luas on Friday and Saturday nights are heavily used as people head into town for a night of socialising. The luas trip is part of their night - it is a pleasure, not a burden.

If we get the aesthetics of the metro right, it will do the same, just like it has in Bilbao.

And please, no GAA exhibits in the metro stations. Leave that for a sports museum. Can you imagine it - a big green and gold station with 1970s Wexford jerseys hanging on the walls behind panes of bullet proof glass.

BryanW raised the issue of the Paris metro's signage. While beautiful in Paris, I think it would look of place in a city with no history of a metro system. The Dublin metro won't be anything like the Paris metro and that's probably a good thing because we've got a blank canvas to work from, they don't.

The Stockholm TBana is a good example of a system that was built with aesthetic vision in mind. I worked in Stockholm for a few months and had the pleasure of using the T-Ban every day, with its travelators, energy-efficient escalators and marvellous stations cut deep under ground, especially the university line.

Can't believe it has 47 underground stations though - in a city with the same population as Dublin. And here we have people wondering whether we should have an underground station at Trinity :rolleyes:

It would be shameful for Dublin not be build a visually stunning station at Trinity interchanging with Tara and showing the world that the luas wasn't a design once-off.

The Bilboa Metro is seriously sexy and yes that's how we need to promote public transport in Ireland. No more boxy trains and smelly locomotives

Couldn't have put it better.

Some more pics of the Bilbao metro to feast your eyes on...

Metrobest

More Bilbao metro pix.

paulm17781

Metrobest wrote:

You're losing credibility now, John, claiming that the DART is a piece of beauty and the luas is a tatty tin can.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the bit where he said this. Could you post it again? I just noticed him talking about stronger brand image - which the DART has. I'm sure you'll add 2 and 2 and get 36 as usual but it would be nice if you could explain where John said this.

markf909

It would be shameful for Dublin not be build a visually stunning station at Trinity interchanging with Tara and showing the world that the luas wasn't a design once-off.

Stephens Green Metro/ Dart station will have a landmark feel to it, of that i'm sure.
However the other Metro / Dart interchange at Drumcondra will probably be just a boring functional metro station with near vertical integration.

Metrobest

To me, that is boring by comparison with a something like the travelator picture that I posted in #1.

There is an elite group of metro systems around the world that people are in awe of. Dublin has an opportunity to join this elite group by building a visionary metro system. So yeah, in that context, Drumcondra interchange is boring. It's not visionary or imaginative like Tara-Trinity.

We need to take off the integrationist's straitjacket and think outside the box, pardon the pun.

The people of Dublin do not need a metro system like one of the Eastern European countries: relentlessly grim, unimaginative, soulless underground hellholes that make going to work a daily drudge. Dublin deserves better.

My vision for Dublin metro is much more like that of Bilbao or Stockholm. That you take pleasure in stepping down into the metro system; the journey to work becomes an experience, not a chore. Futuristic things like underground travelators add to that experience in way that the experience stepping out onto the rainy footpath at the junction of Drumcondra Road and Clonliffe Road, then crossing the road and walking into CIE's antiquated Drumcondra station could never do.

Who exactly is going to use this Drumcondra interchange.. let's see. It may be useful for DCU and O'Connell Street.. but what about TCD and the 14,000 staff and students deprived of a metro station so that Betty from Blanch can get to Penney's on O'Connell Street three minutes quicker.

There is a danger of becoming obsessed about Drumcondra without seeing the wider picture.

Art, architecture and integration can be fused in a practical, beautiful and economically beneficial way at Tara-Trinity with a Bilbao-style travelator. Am I the only one who sees the potential here???

jjbrien

I dont know why we have to emulate Spain or London or Toronto anyway. The Irish metro in Dublin should be just that an Irish metro with its own unique identity. We can take lessons from abroad on how to build the thing but at the end of the day day it should be built with one thing in mind, usability. Rome and Olso have metros which have a very basic style nothing fancy at all but are very user frinedly and wont look out dated in 10 years like certin arty types of stations. That is what we sould be striving to acheve.

paulm17781

Metrobest wrote:

There is a danger of becoming obsessed about Drumcondra without seeing the wider picture.

There is a greater danger of having a travellator fetish!

If you say to someone "Do you want to walk for 2 minutes underground on a travellator or walk up 40 steps on an escalator?" They will pick the elscaltor. Less walking and more direct.

You are the only person I have ever come across who enjoys taking travellators (other than small children) which make me wonder do you have a travellator business vying for this contract or do you have another interest in this ludicrous plan?

markf909

Metrobest,

In that last post on a thread about the Dublin metro, you have mentioned travelators 3 times.
Your single theme whilst posting about the metro on this board revolves around travelators connecting Tara and Trinity. Do you make or service travelators?
Now how will existing staff of Trinity who currently use the Dart to get to work be put out if the Tara Trinity (metrobest) travelator isnt built?
Guess what they wont, they can continue to use Pearse station to access Trinity.
Once the metro is built who will be approaching from the south of the city?
The metro north line terminates at Stephens green so all journeys will be coming in from the north.
Hence any of the 14,000 people at Trinity that you exclusively care about can a) change at Drumcondra for Dart 1 to Pearse, b) change at the O'Connell Street Metro stop for Luas BX or c) Change at Stephens Green for Dart 2 to Pearse. Customers on the Luas green line can just continue on Luas BX for Trinity.
I have outline a lot of journey options there, now tell me why your argument for Tara - Trinity is better than an interchange at Drumcondra, which will be the key interchange for Dart 1. ( Maynooth/Dunboyne - Bray ), and Commuter trains.


EDIT: PaulM made some similar points about Travelators , im a slow typist

dowlingm

jjbrien wrote:

metros which have a very basic style nothing fancy at all but are very user frinedly

hmmm... with IKEA opening so close to Metro maybe they could outfit it

jjbrien

osko is a subway system that doesnt have many stairs , travelators pr escalators. With very short walks. I hope they do something simular not like what Metrobest wants i seen on the airport form he also wants travorlators as well he must sell them for a living. Metrobest would you like instad of a train just put a big travlorator and we can ride the travolator to work?

Metrobest

I think travelators are going to play a key role in shaping the great cities of the 21st century. It's not beyond the realms of possiblity that in 20 years time the CBDs will have a spider's web of underground travelators linking various streets, office towers and transport hubs. Because travelators save time, and time is money, there is financial argument favouring them.

The only way to beat the lure of the car is to provide transport solutions that empower people, save time, take away stress.

In Dublin we have a plan for MetroNorth, and it's a great plan, but now we're talking about dropping Trinity station so that we can have a metro station surfacing on the footpath on Drumcondra Road. I think this is unwise.

People don't want to traipse halfway across central Dublin, crossing the river. (Maybe they'll do it because that's what they're used to, but we have an opportunity to make people's lives easier.)

I never liked walking to Tara and Pearse; thousands of Dubliners surely feel the same way. I think it's wonderful that if Tara-Trinity you can walk into a travelator at O'Connell Bridge of College Street and be whisked straight into Tara Station without having to cross all those pedestrain crossings or get soaked in the rain.

That's a better future than no metro station at Trinity and no travelator to Tara.

Once the metro is built who will be approaching from the south of the city?
The metro north line terminates at Stephens green so all journeys will be coming in from the north.
Hence any of the 14,000 people at Trinity that you exclusively care about can a) change at Drumcondra for Dart 1 to Pearse, b) change at the O'Connell Street Metro stop for Luas BX or c) Change at Stephens Green for Dart 2 to Pearse. Customers on the Luas green line can just continue on Luas BX for Trinity.
I have outline a lot of journey options there, now tell me why your argument for Tara - Trinity is better than an interchange at Drumcondra, which will be the key interchange for Dart 1. ( Maynooth/Dunboyne - Bray ), and Commuter trains.

Look, my point is that Tara-Trinity achives all the futuristic visionary goals I have outlined above. In terms of journey possibilties, it does everything Drumcondra would do, only better, because it's faster, more modern, and brings people straight to where they want to go in a central corridor, not on some antiquated loop line that's hopelessly out of sync with the dynamics of Dublin.

SeanW

Are you really that obsessed with travelators?

Like has been said before, travelators are not the holy grail of transport planning, they're a tool to use when you have to connect two distant points and have no other alternative.

You talk of the dynamics of Dublin yet you don't seem to realise how much the Maynooth line is growing. Why drag 1000s of Maynooth passengers to IEs Tara St to spend 5 minutes on a travelator to get on a Metro to go ... further North? when they could hop off at Drumcondra, go straight down a vertical interchange, and get the Metro quickly and easily before they even get near the congested loop line?

Most people don't have a travelators fetish - they just want to get somewhere.

paulm17781

Metrobest wrote:

Look, my point is that Tara-Trinity achives all the futuristic visionary goals I have outlined above.

Does your future contain many fat people?

I don't think they should build any more rail in the city. I envision people in clean fuel flying cars where congestion is no longer a problem and no one needs rail. :rolleyes:

bryanw

Metrobest wrote:

Look, my point is that Tara-Trinity achives all the futuristic visionary goals I have outlined above. In terms of journey possibilties, it does everything Drumcondra would do, only better, because it's faster, more modern, and brings people straight to where they want to go in a central corridor, not on some antiquated loop line that's hopelessly out of sync with the dynamics of Dublin.

SeanW wrote:

Are you really that obsessed with travelators?
...You talk of the dynamics of Dublin yet you don't seem to realise how much the Maynooth line is growing. Why drag 1000s of Maynooth passengers to IEs Tara St to spend 5 minutes on a travelator to get on a Metro to go ... further North? when they could hop off at Drumcondra, go straight down a vertical interchange, and get the Metro quickly and easily before they even get near the congested loop line?...

I agree with the above point (SeanW).

Why does it have to be that most people will have to go as far as Tara. Think about the people on the Maynooth line that don't want to come into town. What if they want to get to the Airport or Swords but don't want to have to come all the way into Tara to change to metro to get back out. It's a watse of time and this is a reason why people will keep using their cars. If they can change at Drumcondra is makes the whole process a lot easier. People who want to get into Trinity can still get there easily enough. (Or lets say a lot easier than people who have to come into town to get back out). Stephen's Green or O' Connell St. won't be that far away.

Travelators are not a practical solution, they are just a novelty and more trouble than they are worth. If the travelator were to be done, it would probably be switched off or not working half the time anyway... it might be a new metro, but this is still Ireland...!

Besides, integration should be our key priority, especially Drumcondra, we'll probably have to be lucky even to get it.

markf909

You talk of the dynamics of Dublin yet you don't seem to realise how much the Maynooth line is growing. Why drag 1000s of Maynooth passengers to IEs Tara St to spend 5 minutes on a travelator to get on a Metro to go ... further North?

Not only the existing Maynooth line customers, there will also be commuters from Navan/Dunboyne and Hansfield which will have a huge rail catchment.

Now a direct seamless (via vertical interchange) change at Drumcondra to Metro or a trip into town, over the Loop line, down the stairs in Tara, down the stairs to the travelator, 3-5 mins on the travelator to get on the metro to pass underneath a location that you would have been at 15-18 mins previously.
All whilst possibly carting your luggage about. Doesn't sound like international best practice to me.

For the sake of your travelator Metrobest, is this what you would prefer?